http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-dissidia/4998/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-dissidia-final-fantasy-%E2%80%93-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed-makoeyes987/

Second, you’re not making any sense at all, and your shifting of the goal posts is quite tiresome to read. No, they didn’t retcon FF1′s plot at all. You just failed to understand it. Why is Garland good now? Because he’s no longer chained to his fate as Chaos and is free to be his own person. You keep looking for inconsistencies where none exist.

And Squall_of_SeeD never said that theory about Omnislash Version 6 was definitive or the real answer. Just some theorizing for fun. Good job taking it out of context. And no, Cloud’s abilities don’t have anything to do with Jenova, seeing as how his Jenova cells are gone during the final fight with Sephiroth in ACC. Another erroneous conclusion.

I’d like you to give an example of Dissidia’s story contradicting specifically they are not the genuine article please. And by specific, I mean definitively stating so. Because your interpretation and/or twisting of the narrative does not suffice.

As for Kuja, again you look for inconsistencies where there are none. His surprise that Zidane would offer him his help after he once again tried to kill him and harm his friends is completely in character and justified. He is surprised Zidane would give him another chance, after having before, tried to defeat him. Why your mind can’t wrap itself around that is beyond me. Where does Ultimecia inform Kuja he will die? She tells him:

“I’m afraid not. Sadly, you are no more than a vessel…a flawed
one at that.”

Which doesn’t say anything about him going to die. Furthermore, the original Japanese script has Ultimecia say:

” No, unfortunately, it is the truth. You are the only one who uses
lies to manipulate people…”

So once more, it looks like an unfortunate mistranslation by the US version. There is nothing indicative at all of Ultimecia telling Kuja he’s going to die. Not in the US version, and especially no the original Japanese dialogue. You are wrong.

FYI, Kuja is said to be new to the war by Garland. He says to Kuja:

“Not at all. You and I are the same. Not just me. We are all the
same. Even that witch, Ultimecia… We all bear the same fate. You have only
been…directed…because you are new.”

Apparently you can’t even find the script or actually pay attention to the game proper.

Distant Glory: Villains shows that when a warrior dies and is cast aside by their diety they go to a Hell-like realm, yes. However that does that contradict Squall_of_SeeD in the least.

“As long as Chaos exists, so will we.” is what Emperor Mateus states, and that is true. As long as Chaos desires the villains to fight for his side, and be his pawns, he will keep bringing them back. That is what is shown. Gabranth was cast off so of course he wasn’t allowed to come back. You can’t argue that with your semantic word games and argumentative fallacies.

And good job comparing Dissidia to Bleach’s filler arcs. Except none of Bleach’s filler arcs are explicitly stated by the creators as being actual genuine installments of Final Fantasy, and were crafted with the intent of them NOT being considered a gaiden/side story. Your comparison is fail.

The fiends don’t fuse with Garland to make him Chaos either. You kill them before Garland absorbs their power and becomes Chaos. Another point of FF1′s plot you’ve missed, that renders your argument null and void.

Squall_of_SeeD isn’t the only one annoyed with your haphazard and shifty debate tactics.

My statement of “in theory” was not a what if. You’ve put your foot in your mouth before because you’ve been too busy to lash out at what I say, rather than examine my actual point.

I said “in theory” because one could argue that Sephiroth fusing with the Core of the Planet would only affect that stage, in much the same way that Time Compression only seems to affect Ultimecia’s castle.

It is not a “what if” in any sense of the word. It is an acknowledgement that Sephiroth’s plan may be unsound, but it doesn’t matter, because that isn’t what the argument is about.

Look, if you didn’t expect someone to disagree with you, then why the Hell did you agree to this conversation? More than once I have disregarded my points when they have been shown not to work. You have not. You will probably state that this is because your interpretations are right, but as far as intellectual honesty goes, I kinda think I have a better case than you right now.

While we’re at it, let’s talk about twisting things. You are focusing a lot on the “Cosmos might be fashioned after Cid’s wife” thing. When I pointed this out, you said, “Well, you brought it up!” Yeah. At the time, I even said that it was just an idea, not a major point. You’re making it out to be a cornerstone of my argument when it is not.

Honestly, this is why I don’t really like this place. The standing interpretation is right and anyone who disagrees with it is just an idiot. This is “Sephiroth can’t come back to life after AC” all over again.

So, for now, I will press on with this, but I do hope you stop with the ad homs and start with the critical analysis. And if you think I’m out-of-line in any of the preceding statements, well, too damn bad. To borrow your philosophy, I didn’t sling the first stone.
=================================================================
As to FF1…I’ve never played it. I have been looking into the past games’ stories since Dissidia came out, but yeah. So, the time loop was severed. Another interesting line it makes was, “It was a mere twist of fate that gave rise to the chain of Garland’s wrath.”

I don’t think “being designed for this” is “a mere chain of fate.” But this could be & probably is a retcon, I will give you that.

The problem most people have with this ending is that Garland is waiting for the Warriors. This is open-ended. Why? Is he good now? Why can’t he conceivably just time travel AGAIN?
=================================================================
Having read that thread…that’s ridiculous. Cloud can perform Omnislash Ver. 6 because he learned it from Firion? THAT’S your evidence and I’M grasping at straws?

Actually, I’m going to say that’s not only unsupported, it’s blatantly contradicted. We are told that everyone with Jenova’s cells has Jenova’s powers to a certain degree. Jenova can use telekinesis and flight. In fact, most of Cloud’s limit breaks can probably be attributed to Jenova’s influence.
=================================================================
I’m pretty sure you mentioned Kingdom Hearts, but that’s not really important. My point is that references don’t prove anything.

Alright, so the characters believe they’re the genuine article. Also doesn’t prove anything when the backstory seems to tell us, verbatim, that they are not.
=================================================================
No, your answer does not make sense. Kuja never gave any indication that it happened before. It was the exact same 2 lines. Moreover, why WOULD Kuja be surprised, if he already knows Zidane is like this? Your justification does not make any sense.

And yes, during the course of Dissidia, Ultimecia informs Kuja that he’s going to die and he goes apeshit. That’s why he joins Kefka/Cloud of Darkness/Exdeath’s plot.

We could justify all of this by saying that he was ressurrected without his memory, but as I said, the more you have to make excuses for a plot interpretation, the less it’s working.
=================================================================
You are also incorrect in how the heroes and villains come back. Distant Glory: Villains shows us that they fight their way back from some kind of underworld. They exist in the world so long as their respective deity does–that’s all the quote you gave said. You’re attaching extra meaning to it.
=================================================================
Ordinarily, I’d ignore your massive hypocrisy, but you’re pissing me off. How is it that you can demand that I explain every little detail of my idea with cited sources & other such bullshit, but you expect to get away with, “The characters not being real creates a lot of issues.”

WTF? What issues?

As to what I was referring to, I don’t know if you watch Bleach or not, but it’s the closest example to what I’m talking about:

Most anime don’t acknowledge their filler arcs for fear of messing with the original story (imagine that). Bleach is different. The Bount Arc is brought up several times after it’s happened. When souls are being sucked out of peoples’ bodies, Orihime asks if it might be the Bounts again. When Ichigo is going through his internal struggle, one of the characters that faces him is Jin Kariya, the leader of the Bounts. And so on.

My point being that the Bount Arc is reminisced in all of the logical places. If you take another anime like, say, Naruto, and he’s flashing back to all of the times he went Nine-Tailed Fox, clips from the filler arcs will be conspicuously absent. If they actually happened, he should have remembered them, should he not?]

I’m sure you’ll label all of this as irrelevent, but whatever. Since you’re so God damn obsessed with Kuja being new, I don’t remember where that was mentioned. Better to not address a point than to make half-baked justifications such as “Terra lost control because she’s Terra.”

NO!

At the end of FFVI, she had full control of her powers until the magic disappeared. This is a blatant contradiction of the original story! You can’t sweep that under the rug and call it a “counteargument.”
=================================================================
Lastly, FF1′s story being before Dissidia. Hypothetical: The Fiends are still alive and so is Garland. They fuse, make Chaos, and bring Garland from the past.

Now, before you get all anal & start quoting my “what ifs” thing, you asked me how Dissidia could be after FF1.

There is the part where Garland says he will be sent 2K years into the past to become Chaos, but if time is looping, not linear, then “before” and “after” become irrelevant terms. Furthermore, it is strange that Garland, who supposedly loses his memory of becoming Chaos, knows all of this.

Well, it does now. Several of your newest statements have obfuscated what’s being discussed, as well as the material around which the discussion revolves.

For example: ” … you keep mentioning references. We keep mentioning Kingdom Hearts. It makes references to the characters all of the time. Sephiroth’s attacks are named after moves from FFVII, he uses meteor-themed abilities, etc. They don’t prove anything.”

I wasn’t talking about easter eggs when I said “references.” I’m talking about that, throughout the story of Dissidia, not only is there acknowledgement of these characters’ pasts, but the point is also made on numerous occasions to them going home.

So, again, this issue is that the story is either meaning what it tells us or — despite no indication to the effect — doing exactly the opposite of what it tells us is going on.

By the way, *you* keep talking about Kingdom Hearts. *I* haven’t brought it up at all.

-”The answer you gave–let’s be honest, it makes no sense.”

If we’re being honest, then,yes, it makes sufficiently cogent sense. “I tried to kill you and your friends *again* and yet you’re still trying to help me? Wtf?!”

You don’t think that’s a believable reaction? If you say no, then we’re not being honest.

Zidane’s willingness to take yet another chance on him *is* something to wtf over.

-”He can’t find out that he’s destined to die twice.”

He doesn’t, so why bring it up? He’s not suffering from the ticking time-bomb he was in FFIX.

-”You could hypothetically say that the characters don’t remember what happens at the end of the game. The problem is that the more ‘what ifs’ you have to come up with, the less the interpretation of the plot works.”

The only one I see bringing in “What if” scenarios is yourself. “Kuja is baffled that Zidane would take yet another chance on him” is not a “What if” — it’s an observation is what plainly shown to us via Kuja’s bafflement.

In any case, absolutely *nothing* is dependent on the characters not having their memories of Dissidia’s events once the war is over. There is no hole in any of the other game’s plots created by this.

Those stories have already happened. They’re over. The characters existed *beyond* those endings.

You also have this tendency of using justifications for ideas that themselves need to be justified. For example, the idea that Cosmos and Chaos can bring people back to life.”

I don’t have to justify anything when a major element of the plot involves the villains coming back to life every time they’re killed. Hell, look at Mateus alone — he dies at least three times (killed by WoL, Firion and Jecht) during the story, but keeps coming back.

As well, both the words “resurrected” and “reborn” are used in reference to the villains coming back, and when the Emperor says “As long as Chaos exists, so will we,” he is outright asked “You mean, back from the dead?” — to which he replies “Indeed.”

So, yes, Cosmos and Chaos very much have the power to bring back the dead. I don’t have to prove this because the story has already done so, and stated it blatantly numerous times.

-”However, the dialogue between him and Garland seems to indicate that, when Dissidia’s world breaks up, it will end up creating other worlds. In other words, if Sephiroth combines with Dissidia’s world, he can be God of about 10 worlds, instead of just 1.

In theory.”

“In theory”? So — given that it’s not suggested by the story itself — it’s a “What if,” isn’t it?

All that we’re told about what the state of the worlds will be should Chaos fall is this: “… the shards would be released, returning to where they once were.”

In other words, we’re told that things will go back to the way they were before the universes were shattered. For all you even know, if Seph *had* attempted to assimilate Dissidia’s world, the results would no longer even be in effect after Chaos was defeated.

-”The idea that FF1’s world gives life to the other worlds is a pretty obvious reference.”

Except it’s not implied at all.

Golbez explicitly says this: “This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods. As long as Chaos reigns, the shards are fated to sink into endless darkness. But if Chaos perishes, the shards would be released, returning to where they once were.”

Garland says the same thing: “This world is composed of elements collected from different realms. If Chaos were to perish, all would be released to give life to new worlds.”

If things have been pulled from different realms to create Dissidia’s world, and they’ll be going back to “where they once were,” then they clearly existed in some capacity — not that it matters anyway given that Cosmos and Chaos obviously transcend time, seeing as how they have pawns from different eras.

-”I think you’re focusing way too much on the ‘Cosmos might be fashioned after Cid’s wife’ thing. It’s just an idea.”

An idea which you brought up for us to discuss, yes?

-”With my question of ‘when did the events in the backstory take place?’ I am asking just that. I’m not declaring anything a plot hole.”

Well, it’s impossible to pinpoint. It would have had to be before Tiamat took the Flying Fortress from the Lufenians, but that’s as much as we can be sure of.

-”I’m not convinced the time loop broke at all.”

Then you’re ignoring what the game outright told you, as the first line from the ending narration is, “The time loop was severed at last”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3SdizUgmM

-”Even if it did, Dissidia could still come after the events of FF1.”

Based on what? During Dissidia, Garland still refers to himself and Chaos as one — yet the time loop of FFI broke when the event of Garland being pulled to the past to become Chaos was prevented.

-”Garland was still alive. Presumably, so were the Fiends.”

The Four Fiends were killed 2000 years in the past. They’re dead.

-”He could have become Chaos again.”

Sounds like a baseless “What if” to me. I thought you said I was the one throwing out “What if” scenarios while you were the one just going off what was shown to us?

Your hypocrisy — and general intellectual dishonesty within this debate — has become offensive and downright insulting.

Not that I don’t see what you’re saying or even outright disagree with it. The point of presenting another workable hypothesis is to see if either are defeated by the evidence.”

If you were seeking the most workable of theories, you wouldn’t be attributing things to me that I haven’t said (mention of Kingdom Hearts), distorting the meaning of words I have used (“references”), denying the validity of basic premises that are the most simple of observations (Kuja’s “Why?” line, for example), ignoring blatant statements (the villains being resurrected during Dissidia, and the very first line of FFI’s ending), and you wouldn’t be applying copious double-standards (the “What if” matters).

While you started out this discussion as a stimulating enough quarry, at this point, the debate has deterioriated to the point that I feel you’re donwright impossible to debate with.

-”Wait, didn’t we previously establish that Cid was talking about creating the being of harmony when Garland already existed?”

No. No, we didn’t.

That has been your assertion, which you’ve yet to reconcile with the fact that he spoke of creating the being of harmony while still following the orders of the Lufenian nation. Not to mention that other pesky fact — that the child with power over the discord was used to defend Lufenia from invaders, while the “being of harmony” who could control the discord was created to defend Lufenia from invaders.

-”Am I misssing something, here? Forgive me if I am, but due to whatever mix-up* is currently going on with this page, I don’t have the previous comments to draw reference from.

*=For some reason, the comments are all from the article about a potential FFVII remake.”

I’m unsure why the page is like that. The site’s owner upgraded something and there’s some bugs in it, obviously. I’m hoping it gets fixed soon.

In the meantime, sorry for the inconvenience.

-”Let me get this straight: ‘Garland was bio-engineered with the ability to control Discord” sounds more ridiculous than “He was somehow created out of memories stolen from a god given form’?”

Given that we *already* know that *a* being was created out of memories stolen from a god and that this being was able to control discord, I’m going to go with yes.

If they’d had other means of tapping into the power of discord and harnessing it, what would have been the purpose in bio-engineering the kid to begin with?

-”I honestly don’t need examples to show you that the characters being real messes with the original stories.”

Actually, you kind of do. You have made an assertion with a debate. You must now support your assertion with evidence.

That’s how debate works.

I gave you 1 in the form of Kuja, but it should be obvious that this idea could only be justified with the original characters just never talking about it again.”

And why is that a problem? Does the characters in Dissidia being real necessitate that they make a 2-minute sequel to FFIX in which Zidane talks about the war seen in Dissidia?

No.

For that matter, even where we have sequel material in play (FFVII), it’s not a problem. If Cloud’s not going to tell us every time he goes to the bathroom, then I don’t expect him to randomly talk about Dissidia’s war.

That said, a sensible theory has been posited in the following thread, giving credence to the idea that Cloud *does* acknowledge his time in Dissidia’s war:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3585

This, of course, is ridiculous. Think about if you were one of these characters. Your world was just blinked out of existence. You travelled to another universe. You fought with people from other universes. You not only met God, you met TWO Gods. You took part in a battle that saved not only the world but everything to ever exist ever anywhere. In other words, it doesn’t work because of Occam’s Razor.”

So, again, what are you suggesting? That a bunch of two-minute sequels are now required?

That Cloud constantly make reference to Dissidia in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus?

Seriously *what* are you driving at?

-”Even so, there are already several character contradictions that are named on the 2nd page & justified with ‘God did it.’”

In a story where gods did, in fact, do quite a bit.

In any event, the only instance where that was even used is with regard to Kefka’s powers, and — to a lesser extent — Terra’s.

Still building that bridge to dishonest debate, I see.

-”There are also numerous issues of where, precisely in the story, these characters are picked up.”

Given that their profiles refer to their adventures from the previous games in the past tense, it’s simple enough to simply take it at how it’s been said, no?

So there’s not numerous issues raised. In fact, there’s not even one.

-”If Terra already beat Kefka, how come she can’t control her powers?”

Because she’s Terra. Even the full-blooded Espers lost control and caused heavy damage to Vector’s main city during the original game.

“If she hasn’t, why can Kefka go into his god mode?”

If his EX Mode is any indincation, he can — just not whenever and however he feels like it.

If Sephiroth has the Black Materia, why doesn’t he just blow everyone to shit with Meteor?”

You know as well as I that Meteor moves extremely slowly. Besides, Black Materia *is* a move that Seph has in Dissidia, sowhatever.

If the Emperor has already become the Emperor of Hell, how come Firion is surprised that he came back to life?”

Maybe because he didn’t come back when they killed him as the Emperor of Hell?

You’re really grasping at straws now.

-”How come Kuja can go into Trance mode without taking someone’s soul?”

There’s no reason he shouldn’t be able to go into a Trance of his own. Emotions are all that are required for Trance according to FFIX’s Ultimania:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-ix-ultimania-translations/1908/world-establishment-development-materials-continued-p-42-of-the-ffix-ultimania/

Certainly by the end of FFIX, at the least, Kuja had gone through a number of experiences that should have provided him with emotions.

-”How come Jecht doesn’t become a giant when he turns into the Final Aeon?”

Are you really going to nitpick over why a spiritual entity doesn’t always appear the same size? When Shiva from FFX was the same size as normal people anyway?

And when it would have been problematic for the developers to have portrayed Braska’s Final Aeon from that size?

-”The reason the theory that the characters are shadows is valid is not because it ‘cheapens’ or ‘enriches’ anything. It’s because it can explain all of these with the least amount of extra-content justification.”

As I imagine is probably obvious, I disagree. I think it creates a lot of issues.

You didn’t answer me, by the way, on why you believe that Dissidia’s world could plausibly include a chunk of FFVII’s world, but not the real people from that world.

-”Cid says that he took part in the Manikin experiment through ‘observing how the gods called followers.’ The problem is that this doesn’t really tell us anything. Were they calling them from the same worlds? Different worlds?”

From the opening FMV: “… the two gods had gathered warriors from
all lands.”

-”The initial cutscene implies that there used to be more heroes that we never see. It’s…honestly pretty obvious that the ones in the game are advanced Manikins. I feel this is spelled out several times & the only evidence you’ve really given me against it is entirely dependent on an incredibly vague portion of the storyline. It’s suppositional, in other words.”

While your argument is entirely dependent on ignoring what the game constantly tells us about them going home, as well as their memories.

Furthermore, you still refuse to even address the point I’ve asked you about more than once: How is it that Kuja is new to the cycle if Cid is responsible for the personalities of the heroes and villains — despite speaking of his experimentation with manikins in the past tense?

If you can’t even address such a simple question, then you’re being dishonest.

Stupid editing feature not working.

1. I think you’re viewing things from too literal a perspective. For example, you keep mentioning references. We keep mentioning Kingdom Hearts. It makes references to the characters all of the time. Sephiroth’s attacks are named after moves from FFVII, he uses meteor-themed abilities, etc. They don’t prove anything. If anything, they only hurt the idea that they’re the real characters. Take the reference to what Kuja says when Zidane beats him, for example.

The answer you gave–let’s be honest, it makes no sense. It reads like a 10-second justification to the theory that they’re the real characters. Even if you stretch your imagination to the point where the line literally fits, it’s not just about the line. It’s about the whole change of heart that Kuja has. He can’t do that twice. He can’t find out that he’s destined to die twice.

Now, CAN you justify this? You could hypothetically say that the characters don’t remember what happens at the end of the game. The problem is that the more “what ifs” you have to come up with, the less the interpretation of the plot works.

The references aren’t proof of anything, & the reason I’m pursuing this is that it isn’t an issue you can just agree to disagree on in a plot analysis: This would be a very core detail of the whole plot.

2. You also have this tendency of using justifications for ideas that themselves need to be justified. For example, the idea that Cosmos and Chaos can bring people back to life. You made reference to the villains coming back, when we’re debating the very idea of whether or not they’re the real deal in another section.

Also, on that subject, Shinryu is the only entity made reference to reviving the dead in the actual storyline.

3. One of the reasons I didn’t like Golbez is because of his “I suck” attitude. With that, it doesn’t surprise me that he wouldn’t go after Chaos. This isn’t really a point so much as a clarification for why I used a point, though.

The point was on Sephiroth. Most, if not all, of the villains are probably stronger–from a storyline standpoint–than the heroes. Admittedly, having the heroes do his dirty work is something he would do, so I guess this is a point that could go either way.

However, the dialogue between him and Garland seems to indicate that, when Dissidia’s world breaks up, it will end up creating other worlds. In other words, if Sephiroth combines with Dissidia’s world, he can be God of about 10 worlds, instead of just 1.

In theory.

This is also part of a major mindscrew presented in the Reports. Namely, the worlds that Dissidia is supposedly made up of might not even exist yet. The idea that FF1′s world gives life to the other worlds is a pretty obvious reference.

Whether or not it’s JUST a reference is a question they leave unanswered by making it simply speculation on Cid’s part.

4. I think you’re focusing way too much on the “Cosmos might be fashioned after Cid’s wife” thing. It’s just an idea. Also, I’m not implying anything. At one point, I thought Cosmos might be the clone, but I later dismissed that as unlikely, if not impossible.

5. With my question of “when did the events in the backstory take place?” I am asking just that. I’m not declaring anything a plot hole.

6. I’m not convinced the time loop broke at all. Even if it did, Dissidia could still come after the events of FF1. Garland was still alive. Presumably, so were the Fiends. He could have become Chaos again. Then the ending would signify that Warrior of Light was heading back to Cornelia basically to go, “I won, bitches!”

Not that I don’t see what you’re saying or even outright disagree with it. The point of presenting another workable hypothesis is to see if either are defeated by the evidence. It’s the only real way to answer the question “is this a sequal or a prequal?”

7. Wait, didn’t we previously establish that Cid was talking about creating the being of harmony when Garland already existed? Am I misssing something, here? Forgive me if I am, but due to whatever mix-up* is currently going on with this page, I don’t have the previous comments to draw reference from.

*=For some reason, the comments are all from the article about a potential FFVII remake.

8. Let me get this straight: “Garland was bio-engineered with the ability to control Discord” sounds more ridiculous than “He was somehow created out of memories stolen from a god given form”?

9. I honestly don’t need examples to show you that the characters being real messes with the original stories. I gave you 1 in the form of Kuja, but it should be obvious that this idea could only be justified with the original characters just never talking about it again. This, of course, is ridiculous. Think about if you were one of these characters. Your world was just blinked out of existence. You travelled to another universe. You fought with people from other universes. You not only met God, you met TWO Gods. You took part in a battle that saved not only the world but everything to ever exist ever anywhere. In other words, it doesn’t work because of Occam’s Razor.

Even so, there are already several character contradictions that are named on the 2nd page & justified with “God did it.” There are also numerous issues of where, precisely in the story, these characters are picked up. If Terra already beat Kefka, how come she can’t control her powers? If she hasn’t, why can Kefka go into his god mode? If Sephiroth has the Black Materia, why doesn’t he just blow everyone to shit with Meteor? If the Emperor has already become the Emperor of Hell, how come Firion is surprised that he came back to life? How come Kuja can go into Trance mode without taking someone’s soul? How come Jecht doesn’t become a giant when he turns into the Final Aeon?

The reason the theory that the characters are shadows is valid is not because it “cheapens” or “enriches” anything. It’s because it can explain all of these with the least amount of extra-content justification.

10. Cid says that he took part in the Manikin experiment through “observing how the gods called followers.” The problem is that this doesn’t really tell us anything. Were they calling them from the same worlds? Different worlds? Did they call these exact heroes? Were their calls successful?

The initial cutscene implies that there used to be more heroes that we never see. It’s…honestly pretty obvious that the ones in the game are advanced Manikins. I feel this is spelled out several times & the only evidence you’ve really given me against it is entirely dependent on an incredibly vague portion of the storyline. It’s suppositional, in other words.

*Fallen on by a flan*