It's not the same circumstance at all. In one, Zack apparently breaks the glass open during a bad dream and knocks out the technician who walks by. In the other, they use the plan he and Cloud had.
....I never took the scene that way. But wow, I see what you're getting at now. Okay, yeah. That's what it does look like in Crisis Core.
Because, if I remember in FFVII. The stupid nerdy attendant,
opened the door to Zack's cell first,
then Zack beat the shit out of him, right?
Oh well, again. Crisis Core doesn't change the fact they planned for it, or passed each other messages in regards to how to escape. They only subtly changed its implementation in order to make room for the expanded characterization of Zack and his connection to Angeal. It's not really that big of a change, and it's not like they're saying FFVII's version didn't happen.
But I do see your point in how it
was changed. It isn't the same.
Not...really. If that were the case, the CC Guidebooks wouldn't make any reference to FFVII, or say "here, CC didn't show this, or how it happened, but look at FFVII and you'll see the answer there!" That's not indicative of them tossing away FFVII's depiction of events, at all.
Hey, I point out that FFIX is bad because of that too.
Eh, FFIX's battle system wasn't the best but it wasn't downright boring or unplayable. It got annoying but it didn't past the threshold of playability and downright aggravation.
Maybe so. You'd just think that when they first saw him they'd have had a reaction.
The most we get from Reno is, "They were...... Mako eyes." Which sounds more like he's commenting on Cloud apparently looking like a SOLDIER than on it being Cloud himself. And Tseng. Well, Tseng's too busy laughing like a bad guy and slapping the shit out of Aerith to care.
Well considering the Compilation's emphasis of Cloud and Zack's connection to Shinra, and them having met the turks, yeah. You'd expect more of a mention of it in FFVII, proper. The only way it can remotely be justified is by the fact we don't see all the innermost thoughts and feelings of the "enemy" or their conversations regarding the past and previous members of the country. We don't see Tseng, Reno, or Rude speak about Zack. We don't hear anyone from Shinra speak about having to capture Zack. Nothing. It's just all left behind the veil of the story.
Of course, I do like the explanation for his behavior in that scene that Nojima wrote into Case of Shin-Ra. That was really well done on his part.
Oh yes, me too.
BC by far, but DC not by much. But, yes, it's not the worst offender.
Glad we agree there.
But I still think DC is pretty bad.
The problem is more with the idea that a comment like "his existence might be a fabrication" could even be taken seriously. I mean, what, people don't keep newspapers? Magazines? Record TV shows?
Not even the newspaper where it was publically announced that Genesis had been killed in action? Because such a statement was issued.
Not to even mention how fucking stupid the idea is that the public would forget a figure Shin-Ra had molded into a celebrity.
Dude..take it up with the crazy, conspiracy-theory author who wrote the G-Reports! All they are, are cryptic, haphazardly written reports by some outside investigator, who clearly is either young and unfamiliar with Midgar and Shinra those 10 years ago, or deliberate obfuscation of the facts. But the G-Reports aren't that big of a deal.
Look at the previous Ansem Reports of KH1. They're pretty damn stupid too, now that we know the truth, and who really wrote them.
You better fucking believe it.
But, really, something like that isn't such a big deal to me. XD Honestly.
LOL, good.
I thought we'd already established that Aerith is batshit insane when in the Lifestream?
ROTFL, you're cold, you know that? XD
Ah, you're saying that's why he was sitting at the console at the time? Hm. Honestly, never thought of that.
Just figured he was still trying to get the cannon to work when he died.
Really, though, that calls into question some things and makes DC's opening look even more retarded. In the first place, I can't imagine Vincent walking away from there without having made sure the guy was dead to begin with, but given that -- until Case of Shin-Ra was written -- DC's opening was intended to have taken place a week after that fight, how the hell was it ever supposed to make sense that his last act was distributing his neurodata into the network?
If he was really trying to get the cannon to work, why would the last actions he did before dying, result in the Balrog Fragment Program initializing? Clearly its implied that his last actions were the uploading of his fragments there. You can see the monitor and the status for the fragment upload and everything. Somehow, with his dying strength, he uploaded himself into the network, before he shed his mortal coil.
I guess my view of that opening scene has been influenced all this time by the timing of its original placement. I couldn't picture Hojo taking a week to crawl to the panel.
With the new timing of the event, yeah, I can buy that Hojo may not have died right away. Still think Vincent would have probably shot him, reloaded, and then shot him again after the fight was already over, but, yeah, I can see that working.
But, then, I think my way makes sense too.
The original timing of it happening is stupid. But wait, why do you say a week? It wasn't a week between the fight against Diamond Weapon/Helletic Hojo, and then fighting Sephiroth. Between the time Cloud defeated Proud Clod, and Hojo...told everyone to find what they were fighting for, and the finally whooped Sephiroth..was not a week.
Well he does have Jenova cells in him now, and mutated into a monster... he was badly damaged, and wounded, but still had enough vigor to keep going before finally expiring. With that in mind, and the current placement of the event, through Case of Shinra, it makes perfect sense.
...As for your way... Pffah.
Hmm..okay. Well I see your point. Fair enough.
Well, the image that rose out of his body does appear to be a ghost. It's not flickering like the hologram was, and it doesn't have those recurring gaps running along it.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm talking about. *nodnod*
But, as we've agreed, thoughts/consciousness equate to spirit energy. Given that this data had possessed Weiss' body, whatever consciousness was in there would be the body's spirit.
I agree with you. It doesn't make a difference in the end. It might as well be Hojo, because it's him in every other respect. I just don't think it's the original "data."
Pretty much. But why do you think its not the original? If he's uploading his entire mind, and dying at the same time...his spirit energy...his soul, is being taken out of his body, and put inside the network. DC never tells us he "copied" himself. It tells us he literally uploaded, and put his entire being into it. I think the plot would tell us for sure if the Hojo we saw was just a copy or what not. Hojo certainly doesn't say he's a copy.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that once he was dead and didn't have any other choice, he'd have said, "Fuck it. Let me make the best of this."
Ahh, okay. Guess that's not *that* inconceivable. But I don't think his spirit energy would end up in the Lifestream AND Network at the same time. That just strikes me as presumptuous, especially given that it never even states so in DC. I don't
think Hojo's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania refers to Hojo as some copy either. It wasn't fully done or anything, but from what I remember back on AC.net it merely refers to him being in the network itself. As if his spirit never joined the lifestream in the first place.
Again, if he was just being a flirt and knew she knew he wasn't serious, he wasn't lying.
Aerith doesn't know about Zack's training, or if he and Cloud ever trained together or anything. Aerith didn't even know shit about SOLDIER. So that doesn't quite work. For all she knew, maybe he did teach it to him. It just seems ridiculously unnecessary and out of character. In regards to Zack resorting to having to flirt with his own previous girlfriend like she were a stranger, and Aerith coldly rebuffing him. It's just ridiculous given the Compilation proper's depiction of the two. It doesn't fit.
Are you going to help me fanwank a fix for this or not?
NO!
Because he's Sephiroth, dude. He got fucked up the ass with the Fusion Swords in AC/C and still took the time to boast before vanishing.
Bullshits. While being anally raped by Cloud you could see the anger, and pain on his face. After the subsequent curbstomping was over, and his body was already disappearing, he used his last moment to quip about his legacy, but he wasn't laughing and giggling while being cut up by Cloud. And he certainly was NOT laughing while his face gave off the expression of pain and hatred. I see through your attempts at fanwanking that away!!!!
And don't you hold the opinion that he was fighting Cloud with all the swordsmanship ability he had in AC/C, despite Nomura saying they deliberately made sure that he "never shows any sign of exertion" (Reunion Files; pg. 61)?
In other words, you think he was trying hard even while his image didn't portray it?
That's not the same thing. Sephiroth in essence, makes fighting look easy due to his superb swordsmanship and overwhelming power. He doesn't have cognitive dissonance where his face shows pain, yet his voice laughs hysterically. That's a mental schism of emotions. The Reunion Files are speaking of his amazing talent and superhuman strength.
So, again, when everything in a different scenario is telepathic, what's to stop something similar from taking place?
Why would Sephiroth project an image of himself in pain and torment, after being defeated wholeheartedly by Cloud, while he's apparently laughing and not even phased at being completely defeated?
Hell, it doesn't even match with Lifestream Black's depiction of Sephiroth's attitude and emotions of defeat. He was angry. Pissed. Hurt, and wounded. He was not laughing or finding his defeat amusing in any way.
But, again, waking the whole planet's consciousness only means the whole thing was available. Not that all of it actually went.
Again, in all depictions of the incident, you still see more tendrils way off in the distance at the moment Holy defeats Meteor. I don't see how Maiden would have ever implied differently.
Why would it bother implying Aerith awoke the entire consciousness of the planet and moved it, if it wasn't implying she was rallying the entire lifestream. The way its written leaves it heavily implied that she's working with all of the planet proper's spirit energy (i.e. consciousness) to erradicate Meteor.
Yeah, in all depictions of the ending, you see more tendrils way off in the distance, the moment Meteor's destroyed. But this is Maiden. The same Maiden who shows a stupidly different depiction of Sephiroth getting beaten by Cloud. You know...the part of the ending, where in all depictions, it shows Sephiroth being defeated, broken and bloody, and looking pained before vanishing into spirit energy.
So yeah. We can't just take for granted the fact that its one way in FFVII and Maiden wouldn't try to change it. It already did before.
