SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

If you can't see how a man deciding to put the children he's raising with a woman first would have a positive impact on his romantic relationship with her... I can't really help you there, sorry. I'm not saying this to be snarky, I genuinely don't know where to begin with that.

 

[LNK]

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

Nobody is saying he put in romantic effort during the time of AC. That's a reflection of real life. Sometimes couples go through rough patches in their relationship, where romance is lacking. AC was what 1 week long? Maybe less. What matters is what the ending implies, and that things get back to normal for them. Which is them being in a relationship and raising Denzel and Marlene

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

Are you a parent? I ask because you seemingly think these kind of things aren't linked

 

[SephirothSucks]

Did they? Do you have evidence of that? I don't ever remember the characters from the games I mentioned acknowledging they were in a relationship. At the end of ff9 we just see Zidane and Garnet hugging. End of X-2, it's the same with Yuna and Tidus.

Yes they have done this multiple times on their official Website actually you can look this up if you type square enix love stories or something like that.

Extreme Clerith fans aren't arguing about what could've been. They're trying to distort the story to what they think actually is.

Both. They are distorting the story but they also know that Aerith dies, which is why they HAVE to say that Cloud and Aerith COULD have been a better couple but they know they can't really be yet since Aerith is dead

Because as I said, there are hints that showed they were in loving relationship after ff7, pre AC, and post AC.

Do you mean the books? If so didn't they come out after AC? That doesn't really disprove my opinion that Nojima changed his mind about cloti since the came out way later.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes they have done this multiple times on their official Website actually you can look this up if you type square enix love stories or something like that.

Both. They are distorting the story but they also know that Aerith dies, which is why they HAVE to say that Cloud and Aerith COULD have been a better couple but they know they can't really be yet since Aerith is dead

Do you mean the books? If so didn't they come out after AC? That doesn't really disprove my opinion that Nojima changed his mind about cloti since the came out way later.

I believe the books came around the same time as AC in Japan. They came late in the West.

That being said, there’s enough subtext to imply Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. She literally asks “do you love me” while he’s asleep, wakes up and is not surprised whatsoever to find her in the room with him which implies they share a bedroom.

 

[SephirothSucks]

If you can't see how a man deciding to put the children he's raising with a woman first would have a positive impact on his romantic relationship with her... I can't really help you there, sorry. I'm not saying this to be snarky, I genuinely don't know where to begin with that.

I never said it didn't. It obviously does. The only reason I brought this up is because you used that as an example of him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa. I never once even implied that it didn't better his relationship with Tifa but that that wasn't him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa but that he did because he NEEDED to save the kids.

 

[SephirothSucks]

Nobody is saying he put in romantic effort during the time of AC. That's a reflection of real life. Sometimes couples go through rough patches in their relationship, where romance is lacking. AC was what 1 week long? Maybe less. What matters is what the ending implies, and that things get back to normal for them. Which is them being in a relationship and raising Denzel and Marlene


Are you a parent? I ask because you seemingly think these kind of things aren't linked

No I don't think they aren't linked. And I was arguing that he barely put in romantic effort at all with Tifa so I was wondering why you guys think that Nojima would see that as a bad think if he says that Aerith would mostly put in the effort

 

[eleamaya]

Thats a great thread but i want to clear something up. The denzel flashback happens before the whole Geostigma crises and before he visits elmyra (I think but I could be wrong) so its not really a good reason as to why he never even calls her in my opinion

No.
Cloud & Tifa goes well before Elmyra trigger him by delivery order of flower bouquet to Aerith's grave.
Then Cloud starts drinking and going to the church without telling Tifa. That's when and where he finds Denzel later on.
Things goes well again till he's got the same illness as Denzel--the illness he wants to cure as he thought Denzel is his redemption to live sent by Aerith; then he feels useless, dying, and leaves.

 

[SephirothSucks]

I believe the books came around the same time as AC in Japan. They came late in the West.

That being said, there’s enough subtext to imply Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. She literally asks “do you love me” while he’s asleep, wakes up and is not surprised whatsoever to find her in the room with him which implies they share a bedroom.

Pretty sure they are sleeping in Marlenes room. It also kinda grounds Cloud by reminding him of the stakes but I could be wrong. And also you didn't adress my point that other ff couples have been celebrated but not Cloti. Whoch makes it seem like Square Enix doesn't see them as a couple.

 

[SephirothSucks]

No.
Cloud & Tifa goes well before Elmyra trigger him by delivery order of flower bouquet to Aerith's grave.
Then Cloud starts drinking and going to the church without telling Tifa. That's when and where he finds Denzel later on.
Things goes well again till he's got the same illness as Denzel, the illness he wants to cure as he thought Denzel is his redemption to live sent by Aerith, then he feels useless and leaves.

Alright my bad, I didn't know. So Cloti are not doing well, but then when he finds denzel they are doing well again and then when he gets geostigma the aren't doing well again? This is post Elmyra I mean

 

[GamerSkull]

Pretty sure they are sleeping in Marlenes room. It also kinda grounds Cloud by reminding him of the stakes but I could be wrong. And also you didn't adress my point that other ff couples have been celebrated but not Cloti. Whoch makes it seem like Square Enix doesn't see them as a couple.

Why would they be sleeping in Marlene’s room in On the Way to A Smile? I’m pretty sure they weren’t in Marlene’s room in that scene.

 

[LNK]

Yes they have done this multiple times on their official Website actually you can look this up if you type square enix love stories or something like that

I found one from 2022. Interestingly, the post did not have Zidane and Garnet, but had Beatrix and Steiner?

6 unforgettable Square Enix love stories | Square Enix Blog

Love is in the air here at Square Enix - or more accurately, love is in the games! Here are some of the most memorable romances, from FINAL FANTASY, Life is Strange and more!

www.square-enix-games.com

So does that mean Zidane and Garnet were never together?

Both. They are distorting the story but they also know that Aerith dies, which is why they HAVE to say that Cloud and Aerith COULD have been a better couple but they know they can't really be yet since Aerith is dead

Why bother with extreme Clerith fans? They're biased from the jump. They distort the story to try and justify what could be. No matter how explicit SE gets, those fans will still distort things. They already are with the Remake trilogy

Do you mean the books? If so didn't they come out after AC? That doesn't really disprove my opinion that Nojima changed his mind about cloti since the came out way later.

The books only cemented things more that Cloud and Tifa were together after ff7. They weren't necessary to know that. Especially looking back at how other final fantasy games handled romance post ff7.

 

[Rin]

I never said it didn't. It obviously does. The only reason I brought this up is because you used that as an example of him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa. I never once even implied that it didn't better his relationship with Tifa but that that wasn't him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa but that he did because he NEEDED to save the kids.

He didn't NEED to do anything. The man had chosen to give up and die and straight up told Tifa that he wasn't strong enough to save anyone--not himself, not his friends, not his family.

He CHOOSES to save the kids because he is putting in effort for his family (Tifa included). That is an action of effort that represents his decision to continue living so that he can be a present father to his children and a good partner to Tifa. The entire movie is about Cloud taking his power back and shaping his own future because he is not a victim of circumstance, he is the pirate of his own ship. Tifa is attracted to that effort and his decision to move forward IS him putting effort into his relationship because it is all connected--which is the very point of Case of Tifa.

And yes, the short stories all came out WITH Advent Children in JP because they were meant to give context to the movie before watching it. So, no, Nojimas opinions have not changed as everyone here has told you consistently.

 

[SephirothSucks]

I found one from 2022. Interestingly, the post did not have Zidane and Garnet, but had Beatrix and Steiner?

6 unforgettable Square Enix love stories | Square Enix Blog

Love is in the air here at Square Enix - or more accurately, love is in the games! Here are some of the most memorable romances, from FINAL FANTASY, Life is Strange and more!

www.square-enix-games.com

So does that mean Zidane and Garnet were never together?


Why bother with extreme Clerith fans? They're biased from the jump. They distort the story to try and justify what could be. No matter how explicit SE gets, those fans will still distort things. They already are with the Remake trilogy


The books only cemented things more that Cloud and Tifa were together after ff7. They weren't necessary to know that. Especially looking back at how other final fantasy games handled romance post ff7.

Funny enough I saw other articles on the website that did feature Zidane and Garnet. So if Square Enix actually saw cloti as a couple they should at least put them in on of those lists since ff7 is the most important Final Fantasy game they have. But your other points are pretty good. Again my issue was never that cloti wasn't canon, they are, but rather that Square Enix and Nojima seemed to be very "secretive" and "ambiguis" about it I guess. Which is why we even have this LTD in the first place. They could have just stated that they are a couple long ago and we would not have this problem that should have never been a problem in the first place. And also I feel like the Re trilogy does a way better job with their relationship than AC or the books.

 

[SephirothSucks]

He didn't NEED to do anything. The man had chosen to give up and die and straight up told Tifa that he wasn't strong enough to save anyone--not himself, not his friends, not his family.

He CHOOSES to save the kids because he is putting in effort for his family (Tifa included). That is an action of effort that represents his decision to continue living so that he can be a present father to his children and a good partner to Tifa. The entire movie is about Cloud taking his power back and shaping his own future because he is not a victim of circumstance, he is the pirate of his own ship. Tifa is attracted to that effort and his decision to move forward IS him putting effort into his relationship because it is all connected--which is the very point of Case of Tifa.

And yes, the short stories all came out WITH Advent Children in JP because they were meant to give context to the movie before watching it. So, no, Nojimas opinions have not changed as everyone here has told you consistently.

Nojimas opinion changing was just my opinion like a stated multiple times. I never said that it was absolute. And yes like I said by saving the kids he is also automatically putting in effort with Tifa. My main point was that Cloud barely put any effort into their romantic relationship exclusively and Tifa did most of the work so the tought that with Aerith it wouldn't work because she would be putting in all the effort was strange to me. That is why this all started.

 

[eleamaya]

Alright my bad, I didn't know. So Cloti are not doing well, but then when he finds denzel they are doing well again and then when he gets geostigma the aren't doing well again? This is post Elmyra I mean

Yes, but the timeframe of them not going well is short compared to them going well.
After he finds Denzel, Cloud act as a parent, that Tifa see him a father of two kids. That Denzel himself in his novel view Cloud & Tifa as his parents. Tifa also feels redemption through Denzel since Denzel lost his parents from Sector 7 plate collapses. This is how they work as family.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Am I really seeing ye olde "Cloud wasn't a super-romantic during a time when he was genuinely depressed and literally waiting to die" chestnut again? It's been years, if I'm reading that right.

 

[SephirothSucks]

Am I really seeing ye olde "Cloud wasn't a super-romantic during a time when he was genuinely depressed and literally waiting to die" chestnut again? It's been years, if I'm reading that right.

No, you're not reading that right.

 

[GamerSkull]

Cloud also refers to the four of them as “family” in The Kids are Alright. Which is directly after ACC. So he’s clearly now back with them and they’re happy family unit again.

 

[Rin]

Nojimas opinion changing was just my opinion like a stated multiple times. I never said that it was absolute. And yes like I said by saving the kids he is also automatically putting in effort with Tifa. My main point was that Cloud barely put any effort into their romantic relationship exclusively and Tifa did most of the work so the tought that with Aerith it wouldn't work because she would be putting in all the effort was strange to me. That is why this all started.

But why is it strange when we literally do see Cloud put in effort? It's one thing not to know of all the instances when he has put in effort, but if the writer is telling you point blank what the differences between the ships are why argue against that? If it's not making sense to you then chances are you're probably missing certain context, not that the context doesn't exist--which is why I said that he put in effort pre and post AC.

He helps her rebuild her entire life and business. He raises their good friends daughter with her. He adopts a young boy with her. He started a delivery service to help her out with her business. He gave her a symbolic ring representative of himself. He proudly tells another man, his gf, and their adopted child that he and Tifa are a family just like them.

These are all romantic efforts within the context of their relationship post OG.

 

[GamerSkull]

But why is it strange when we literally do see Cloud put in effort? It's one thing not to know of all the instances when he has put in effort, but if the writer is telling you point blank what the differences between the ships are why argue against that? If it's not making sense to you then chances are you're probably missing certain context, not that the context doesn't exist--which is why I said that he put in effort pre and post AC.

He helps her rebuild her entire life and business. He raises their good friends daughter with her. He adopts a young boy with her. He started a delivery service to help her out with her business. He gave her a symbolic ring representative of himself. He proudly tells another man, his gf, and their adopted child that he and Tifa are a family just like them.

These are all romantic efforts within the context of their relationship post OG.

Unrelated to LTD but I wish we could see Evan as a cameo. It was cool to see Kyrie.

 

[SephirothSucks]

But why is it strange when we literally do see Cloud put in effort? It's one thing not to know of all the instances when he has put in effort, but if the writer is telling you point blank what the differences between the ships are why argue against that? If it's not making sense to you then chances are you're probably missing certain context, not that the context doesn't exist--which is why I said that he put in effort pre and post AC.

He helps her rebuild her entire life and business. He raises their good friends daughter with her. He adopts a young boy with her. He started a delivery service to help her out with her business. He gave her a symbolic ring representative of himself. He proudly tells another man, his gf, and their adopted child that he and Tifa are a family just like them.

These are all romantic efforts within the context of their relationship post OG.

You're right. I guess I saw it wrong when it came to this interview and the whole thing with "romantic efforts".

 

[LNK]

Funny enough I saw other articles on the website that did feature Zidane and Garnet. So if Square Enix actually saw cloti as a couple they should at least put them in on of those lists since ff7 is the most important Final Fantasy game they have.

I've seen posts by SE that acknowledged them being in a couple. There's also the game, book and movie.

Again my issue was never that cloti wasn't canon, they are, but rather that Square Enix and Nojima seemed to be very "secretive" and "ambiguis" about it I guess. Which is why we even have this LTD in the first place. They could have just stated that they are a couple long ago and we would not have this problem that should have never been a problem in the first place. And also I feel like the Re trilogy does a way better job with their relationship than AC or the books.

The remake trilogy is showing no matter how explicit things get, the extreme Clerith fans will ignore things. Especially in regards to what could be. Who cares about what could be though. What matters is what is

 

[LNK]

No, you're not reading that right.

That's definitely the way you're coming across

 

[SephirothSucks]

I wonder what its gonna take to actually kill the LTD. Because so far it wasn't enough which is why there are so many extreme cleriths. (Nothing wrong with being clerith but I meant the whole idea that they are canon)

 

[Pasuwado]

Honestly, I don't know how this LTD still exists, especially since we already know the end of the story.

If Square Enix intended for Cloud and Aerith to be the official couple of FF7, neither Zack nor Tifa would exist.

They wouldn't spend so much time developing Zack and Tifa, only to have them end up heartbroken in the end.

Do people forget they're playing a Final Fantasy? The developers want their main characters to have a happy ending after all the trials they face.

There are moments between Cloud and Aerith that may seem romantic if you look at the scene individually, but considering the context of the story, it's clear that Aerith is actually searching for someone else.

The developers made it clear in Rebirth that Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual.

Not even the most optimistic Cloti thought they would kiss so soon.

And Zack's entire motivation in the story is to reunite with Aerith.

It's simply impossible for this story to be what the Cleriths want it to be.

But for me, Rebirth has a problem, the developers weren't clear enough about Aerith's feelings for Cloud.

It's as if they wanted to make the player think: Is Aerith using Cloud as a substitute for Zack? Or does she have true feelings for him?

This mystery is completely unnecessary, it only exists to not alienate the Cleriths.

Honestly, the only way for Cloud and Aerith to be together is in an alternate reality where Tifa and Zack don't exist.

But I highly doubt the developers would make such a cowardly narrative decision.