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- Tim, Ryu
I think you have to conclude NPTK is mostly about Zack, partly because she starts writing it very quickly after Tifa tells Aerith about Cloud remembering Zack's demise incorrectly.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
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- thetriplerhyme
Lets hold on with the bashing ~
A don't agree she's poorly written.. but it seems there are a lot of 'lost potential there' not because of her death but connection to others should expanded more - that's my take.
I still love the small aerti moments --> although i would love to see if Tifa gave her a massage.
on the way to corel Tifa asked Cloud that 'Aerith needs a rest" as she's being left behind while Nanaki is besides her. " there's no need to rush"
a bit frustrated they didnt let Aerith join in Nanaki in Seto’s dungeon - Aerith is Nanaki's first friend hence why he's very keen of her. they choose barret when he just' have his moment.
I wanna see more with others ( in temple of the Ancient i love her interactions with Yuffie and Nanaki ) --> without Cloud ( Jenova inside ) she's able to communicate with Lifestream --> after this scene actually she has become a real threat hence Sephy killed her.
- so many lost potentials i wished was included to expand her connections but i think these feeling is also part tragic character
A don't agree she's poorly written.. but it seems there are a lot of 'lost potential there' not because of her death but connection to others should expanded more - that's my take.
I still love the small aerti moments --> although i would love to see if Tifa gave her a massage.
on the way to corel Tifa asked Cloud that 'Aerith needs a rest" as she's being left behind while Nanaki is besides her. " there's no need to rush"
a bit frustrated they didnt let Aerith join in Nanaki in Seto’s dungeon - Aerith is Nanaki's first friend hence why he's very keen of her. they choose barret when he just' have his moment.
I wanna see more with others ( in temple of the Ancient i love her interactions with Yuffie and Nanaki ) --> without Cloud ( Jenova inside ) she's able to communicate with Lifestream --> after this scene actually she has become a real threat hence Sephy killed her.
- so many lost potentials i wished was included to expand her connections but i think these feeling is also part tragic character
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
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- SackyBoy
Thats what just makes sense narratively but every interview just keeps saying Cloud only which i guess its spoilers that it might be about Zack but also like why when Rebirth has Aerith say she still loves Zack in Gongaga. So why cant they just say its about Cloud and Zack in these interviews XD
So maybe it actually is just meant to be about Cloud which is just so confusing they keep marketing this song as an important story moment thats the only reason im tryna figure it out. Her crying after also makes no sense if its only Cloud
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I feel like everything is done for a reason when it comes to scene direction. So having her write the song in the hotel lobby and showing that Tifa tells her about Zack in the same lobby is deliberate.
Perhaps it is about Cloud, but more so that he’s serving as a proxy for Zack.
But we also have to take into account that most songs are written to have more than one meaning too. Also, taking what is one song and framing the entire game from that one song should not be what we are doing anyway, we should be doing that in reverse… it doesn’t matter if it’s the “theme song”.
If we do it in reverse, we have to take into account all the complex feelings Aerith has for Zack IN ADDITION to her complex feelings for Cloud.
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My theory is that the last dream date might be Aerith that has all OG memories…She has much stronger romantic feelings toward Cloud since you know, OG.
For me the Aerith we traveled with didnt seem like show too much interest expect she dragged Cloud on “dates” to talk about other characters…And if you do Aerith’s side quest, my favorite one is the Cosmo Cayon one, where Cloud literally call her name and want to say something, after they take the selfie, but our Aerith’s reaction was like “duh, let’s get back to the observatory.” She didn’t even tease him at all…she had been teasing Cloud the entire game, but this was a perfect chance to coax something out of him, but she didn’t do anything
For me the Aerith we traveled with didnt seem like show too much interest expect she dragged Cloud on “dates” to talk about other characters…And if you do Aerith’s side quest, my favorite one is the Cosmo Cayon one, where Cloud literally call her name and want to say something, after they take the selfie, but our Aerith’s reaction was like “duh, let’s get back to the observatory.” She didn’t even tease him at all…she had been teasing Cloud the entire game, but this was a perfect chance to coax something out of him, but she didn’t do anything
hytekz
Pro Adventurer
Maybe I'm wrong but I never saw Nojima or Uematsu saying it was about Cloud? I only saw Lauren say that she watched/read about Cloud and Aerith relationship.
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
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- SackyBoy
i think theres an interview but the lyrics only really fit Cloud especially about "Our Street"
"Our place" defo feels Zack though
This was another thing that felt completely demented, calling the church "our spot". Aerith literally spent 5 minutes in there with Cloud.
Meanwhile it's THE PLACE where she and Zack would always meet up, where she held him crying even....HOW THE HELL IS THAT CLOUDS PLACE!?
Make the writing make sense please.
hytekz
Pro Adventurer
Even Cloud didn't know what she was meaning by "our place" in the date
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Is it not possible that the song is about both of them… perhaps even combined into one person?
Which is not dissimilar from the actual situation almost?
Which is not dissimilar from the actual situation almost?
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
Note that she also latches on to Tifa's arm before sidling in close, just like she does with Cloud. So evidently that's just her character quirk instead of her trying to get on with Cloud in front of Tifa's face, lol.
I also see that the thread has circled back to the theme song, lol. As I said earlier, it fits ZA and CA but also CT so I don't think the song is that big of a deal.
my thing is why does Aerith find out Zack is dead, 10 minutes later writes a love ballad for "Cloud (maybe Zack)", manages to get in this competition, and somehow ends up turning into Whitney Houston 2.0 whilst singing.
Its easily the absolute dumbest part of the game by a country mile
Its easily the absolute dumbest part of the game by a country mile
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I’m of the opinion it probably has multiple meanings.
Anyway, I think the Ultimania will really shed some light on this as well as the “optional dates”.
I especially want to know what it says about those. Soon.
One correction, she doesn't find out about Zacks death. She finds out that Cloud remembers Zack.
Tifa already knows Zack didn't die in the stream, and the words she uses make it sounds like she wasn't even letting Aerith know that Cloud knew Zack, but that they already deduced that Cloud must know Zack and that the news she's sharing is SPECIFIALLY that he now remembers when he didn't at first.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Aerith has already known Zack is dead.
luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
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- Play
Can you share it pls ? Because i didn't see any jp translation
shady
Pro Adventurer
This is either bad writing or it's intentional. Some will argue it was their spot originally because the stuff with Zack was retroactively put in after the OG (even though yes Cloud and Aerith basically spent almost no time there.) Or lets look at the scene for what it is, the recreation of a memory she had with Zack in CC, aka the "Zack date" where I would argue Aerith begins to act a little more like her CC self, she even replicates the line of treasuring the item given to her just as she does with the pink bow in CC. The scene is littered in Stamp/Zack imagery that if you look around as Zack in as Chapter 8 the Stamp stuff isn't there (Like the Stamp dog you can choose for Aerith on the Hairclip stall.) Hell there is even a poster in full view of the Photo you are posing for that portrays the Stamp/Zack dog carrying an injured yellow/blonde dogwith the bandage around it's left arm. Hell we even get multiple Zack cutscenes during this date.
What happens during the entire date? Nothing goes right, why? Because you cannot relive a memory hoping for the same spark when the person who you made the memory with has been replaced with somebody else. This is why I think in the HA version of the Church dialogue (in the Japanese version I believe) she gets momentarily excited when Cloud suggests they should make new memories, because she knows this is an old one and she has no other happy "date" to pull from.. but then also realises she isn't necessarily feeling the same spark she did with Zack. Sure she likes Cloud -- in here own words -- but also in her own words she doesn't seem to know how much she even likes him and now she "Knows where (they) stand", and the sad part about it is she knows she will unlikely ever get the chance to explore more, hence NPTK which in the Japanese lyrics sound more like "I want to be able to spend more time with you in order to figure out what i'm feeling, but know i'll likely never get the chance" rather than "I love you so much please take my hand and we can be together forever" which I think makes no sense for when it is performed and written.
Oh and uh as for the Church, what happens after Aerith basically has to spell it out for Cloud what "our spot" is and makes him follow her? We cut to a scene of Zack sat right outside the Church. I have to think this is intentional, why? Because if she had said to Zack lets go to "our spot" Zack would have immediately known what she was talking about, I think part of the reason Aerith talks about knowing where they stand is because unlike Zack, Cloud didn't immediately know what she was talking about, and like most "romantic" interactions between Cloud and Aerith, Cloud basically has to be "cojoled", as she says on the date, every time to get even half the responsiveness that Tifa gets and that for her is reason enough to realise that Cloud just isn't responding to her in the way she necessarily wants him to.
It's about Cloud and Zack, the only person that has commented on saying it's strictly about Cloud is Loren Allred in a recent interview who said she looked at wiki and youtube and such to gather information. I will be interested to see if the Zack info comes out over the coming months, i'd say watch this space.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I definitely am curious to see what the Ultimania will say. The best thing about it is that we’ll be able to use explicit developer statements in arguments now. No more of this “it doesn’t count because it’s optional” stuff. And that goes for both ships.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Oh, sure. But as I said, I just put the Japanese lyrics in DeepL so I can't guarantee how accurate they are. XD
Japanese lyrics for those interested:
The DeepL English translation:
Hix
Pro Adventurer
The answer is, it's not Cloud/Aerith's place at all, but Zack/Aerith's. Nojima has described the church as a special place for Zack where he would come after missions, for many months, for comfort and healing.
While this isn't shown in it's entirety in the games - it's certainly alluded to, given they were together from Zack's time as a 2nd Class SOLDIER - but Crisis Core gives more than enough important scenes to show it's significance. It's where Zack and Aerith first meet, where they fall in love, where she comforts him over the death of Angeal and where he builds her the flower cart and they go into business together.
As if to rubber stamp the idea, the 30th Anniversary "Words left by Aerith" poem juxtaposes her feelings of love for Zack with the flowers in the Church stating that, just as they keep blooming regardless of season, so too are her feelings for him unchanging.
It should come then as no surprise that Zack's Buster Sword is left in the midst of the flowers in the Church at the end of Advent Children. It was their place in life, so too in death and always.
The writing here does make sense if one understands that Aerith is treating Cloud like he's Zack. The Sector 5 date is her "dream", it's her precious memory, and it's a literal copy paste of the sector 5 date from Crisis Core. But everything keeps going wrong or people keep remarking how it all feels wrong and even Cloud just plain gets it wrong. It's the right place, but the wrong person. She likes him, but that doesn't mean she like likes him, a clear distinction with the unambiguity of her admitting her feelings for Zack in Gongaga.
It's here that her continued attempts to fit a Cloud shaped peg in a Zack shaped hole in her heart come to an end and, fittingly, her mission (handing over the white materia) and life (at the hands of Sephiroth) with it. That may not be so narratively satisfying and, ultimately, having to understand the breadth of the Compilation to realise the significance may rub some the wrong way - but one can't say it is inconsistent.
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I knew the stamp statue appears in the dream date, but is the graffiti also only there in the dream date? Because that would be so hard to notice that it's triviality by itself makes it extremely important, the fact that they'd go out of their way to make that change specifically.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
This. You said it all. Some may hate it because it's not the ship they want, but it's the only way for all this dream sequence to make sense. It's the final hit on the nail. Her final answer. Zack is truly the one. She's going to die, have access to the LS and what's the first thing she's going to do ? Make him dodge the bullets. Find him again and again for his help to confront Sephiroth at the end of Rebirth, and even bring him back again in their spot.
shady
Pro Adventurer
Right and as Hix pointed out above, she has an incredible amount of memories with Zack at that place, but maybe 1 memory with Cloud.