SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe she’ll give the pin to Zack like Cloud did Tifa lol.

At this point I would not be surprised. If that's the correct intention then it's also showing me Zack deserves the flower way more than Cloud.

And again why is her farewell all about this guy? Is my main thought here if that's the case.

 

[imach0c0]

Regarding the dream date, this was my initial impressions on it. It felt very reminiscent of Zack for the following reasons:

- The stamp had a likeness to Zack (spiky hair and blackish fur)
Note: there is a also a stamp sign that has the "Zack" stamp holding a puppy with a bandage/wrap on its right arm. Cloud has wrap around his right arm. Make that what you will. Perhaps its a coincidence and means nothing. Buts its an interesting detail nonetheless.

- One of the first things Zack and Aerith do on their first date is Zack buys Aerith a bow. In the first stall, Aerith wants Cloud to buy her something.

- When Aerith mentions "place of memories" (JP version), Cloud does not seem to know. Then the scene cuts to Zack sitting at the church.

- Throughout the date, scenes of Zack keep cutting

At first I was not able to tell if all these "Zack" elements were a misinterpretation without any purpose. However, after the dialogue of Aerith being uncertain about her "like" (going with the JP dialogue), I think there is some symbolic storytelling that is showing rather than telling.

I do not think this "date" is Aerith reliving her Zack moments through Cloud. Instead, I think this scene is showing us her conflicted emotions as she navigates through the date. Aerith is trying to enjoy a moment with Cloud and she is the one constantly initiating everything. However, its not really working out because her love does not reside with Cloud. In the GS date, it may seem she had moved on and is developing feelings for Cloud. However, it feels like Aerith has not gotten over Zack and her romantic feelings for him still linger in her heart. (whether she realizes it or not). If this dream world is created from memories/dreams and it was made by Aerith, perhaps the environment is representative of her true subconscious regarding where her romantic feelings lie. Despite her efforts to enjoy the moment at each stall, she is met with rejection not matter the choice. Also, the photographer says they do not look like a couple and Aerith denies it. It gives the impression that Aerith could be in denial and is struggling to see the reality of where her feelings lie because she is trying to move on but can't get over Zack no matter how much she tries.

Regarding the koibito note, that Aerith died before she could meet or talk to Cloud. Perhaps she developed "love" for Cloud but was unable to figure out what kind of "love" it was because she died. If this Aerith is the same one from COLW, I can see why her feelings are conflicted because this is her first time meeting Cloud after death. However, after going on the "date" with Cloud, perhaps its through having that experience with Cloud, where she comes to the realization that the "like" she initially thought she had for him is not necessarily that. Meaning, its perhaps leaning into an emotional love, not a romantic love.

This all could mean nothing but its interesting storytelling choices.

Let me know what you all think. I'd like to see your perspectives on this.

I don't know if this is the intention of the scene but I found this analysis of the Aerith dream date which is basically a meta commentary that Aerith can't change her fate even if the fanbase desires it. That's why you can't choose her gifts and why everything goes wrong.


I have to say it's very interesting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1bu6qn4
And if the Lifestream is memories and materia needs memories and desires maybe that's why she is doing this. Trying to create happy memories to fill the White Materia is her desire but her impending doom is looming over her? And the shopkeepers are her subconscious telling her she has no choice here.

 

[Yoru]

And again why is her farewell all about this guy? Is my main thought here if that's the case.

This.

That's the main reason why this scene bothers me. It goes against her character in my opinion. Basing everything on Cloud at that moment annoys me. Even more so if it's a bridge to Zack in the last game. As long as it wasn't something romantic but just a goodbye, turning everything into a date was a bad idea.

 

[nars305]

At this point I would not be surprised. If that's the correct intention then it's also showing me Zack deserves the flower way more than Cloud.

And again why is her farewell all about this guy? Is my main thought here if that's the case.

I like to think since this is an Aerith who is more aware of things, enough to tell him not to feel guilty, that she is doing what she can to protect Cloud. She knows he’s fragile, and she cares for him deeply.

So all she can do is properly say goodbye this time, tell him not *to feel guilty, and show she is not mad at him. I imagine perhaps that is all she could figure she could do to help him as far as his mental problems go.

Edit: Thinking on it more, I just think this scene can have many interpretations. I feel it’s classic SE loving to make things that encourage debate and conversation.

 

[Eerie]

And again why is her farewell all about this guy?

You tell me, you're the CA fan. I wanted a farewell with the whole team, especially since we didn't see her spend that much time with them, honestly. It nearly all happens offscreen, it's really one of my "please don't do that" comment to the devs.

On the other hand, I don't agree that the flower brooch is a clear sign of rejection. Cloud is already sulking when the seller offers him something other than his choice. So I don't think it's very fair to tell Clerith that Cloud's refusal to take the brooch is simply his way of rejecting her outright.

I will say this, but Cloud made the sidequest with Leslie one or two days prior. The flower while not primarily about lovers (that's an EN fault there) definitely has a romantic subtext because of Leslie. I will agree with you that Cloud's strong stance melts away during the date, especially with the photograph because it's one thing he is interested about, and that when Cloud makes a choice, he doesn't like when people override him. But this is Aerith's subconscious dreams and hopes, and she is on a romantic date with Cloud, with a flower that has a romantic subtext. I am sorry but I do think Cloud at least picks up the intention behind Aerith's insistance and he disagrees with it. Also maybe that is a bit reflective of Aerith's comment in Under Junon and her being pissy about him giving the flower to Tifa. Those two scenes kind of answer each other.

 

[Stiggie]

At this point I would not be surprised. If that's the correct intention then it's also showing me Zack deserves the flower way more than Cloud.

And again why is her farewell all about this guy? Is my main thought here if that's the case.

I'm going to be honest with you, I can't think of any take in this story, including a Clerith one, where my main thought isn't "why the hell is her farewell all about this guy".

In fact, I'd argue that this is one of the reason this version is better, because if it's a rejection then it's NOT about Cloud. The thing is that I don't think the refusal of the flower is a conscious rejection by Cloud, who sees the flower and conciously thinks "that would make her my lover, I must reject her". This entire world feels like it exists as a construct of the sub-conscious, the rejection is more symbolic. And the the thing with a symbolic rejection is that it implies that there is something wrong about Cloud and Aerith, something that doesn't fit, they're not right for each other.

And that means that this entire thing is NOT about Cloud, it's about Aerith, it's about Aerith and her feelings and getting them sorted and Cloud is essentially just helping her sort those things out.

Meanwhile, if this WAS romantic, then I have to throw up a bit and call bullshit.

That would make me think "ok, so Aerith dated Zack for over a year, pined over him for 5 years, wears pink for him, wears the bow he gave her, wrote him 89 letters, and became interested in Cloud because of he reminded her of Zack. Then while on a journey with Cloud she confirms that she still likes Zack, and after that her and Cloud split up, then Cloud spends the evening taking care of Tifa and almost kissing her, next day they leave for Cosmo Canyon where Cloud potentially yells at her (all playthroughs should be valid) and she connects with Zack spiritually in the cave of the GI. Then they leave for Nibelheim where Cloud first talks about how simping over Tifa is "totally his thing", after which they split up AGAIN. Then after getting back together they go to the Golden saucer where Tifa tells Aerith about Cloud remembering Zack, which inspires Aerith to write a song about wanting to meet people again, she sees Tifa and Cloud on a date, maybe see them hold hands while she's singing her song assuming she's kinda aware of his presence, she also presumably spends some time with a Tifa who seems strangely giddy. Then they all go to the temple of the ancients where THEY SPLIT UP AGAIN! After which Cloud acts like a psycho, tells her to Hurry the fuck up after the trials, he kills some people and finally tries to steal the black materia from her....... ok, lets pretend for a second that I accept the ludicrous notion that these events were so endearing that it made Aerith fall in love with him, HOW THE HELL is it that this crush is enough to justify making her final farewell all about Cloud?"

Nah, in that case I prefer the farewell to be about Aerith with Cloud being symbolic, mixed with a sense of her feeling like Cloud is someone in need of care or something. But if this were to be truly romantic then...well, I don't think I've ever come across writing this bad.

 

[imach0c0]

If
If Cloud is really refusing romance there with the pin I'm sorry but that is super disrespectful and once again I am knocking the devs if that's the case because her farewell scene is not the place for that. I understand the truths are hard to swallow part but that is cruel to do it that way.

That flower was a gift of reunion a symbol of meeting again and also her own fate because she needs to follow the yellow flowers. Cloud needn't look so inconvenienced because it's not him that needs to die.
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I agree with this part the most.
"However, I think Aerith's Dream is them saying, "No, guys, these possible changes are what some of us think we want, but you know it's not right, it's not 'real', and it's ultimately not going to be the ending of the game." It's all a comment on the fandom, all of us wanting different things."

I took it as the gifts they do get are destiny, fate we probably don't want but it's reality.

Though Cloud shows what could be interpreted as annoyance when the clerk offers the pin to Cloud, Cloud does not take it. Instead, Aerith takes it.

The choice of dialogue is interesting however. In JP, Aerith says "Taisetsu Ni Suru Ne" when she takes the pin. Its the same line she says to Zack when he buys her the bow in CC.

Is it just a callback or is there subtext behind it?

 

[Yoru]

I will say this, but Cloud made the sidequest with Leslie one or two days prior. The flower while not primarily about lovers (that's an EN fault there) definitely has a romantic subtext because of Leslie. I will agree with you that Cloud's strong stance melts away during the date, especially with the photograph because it's one thing he is interested about, and that when Cloud makes a choice, he doesn't like when people override him. But this is Aerith's subconscious dreams and hopes, and she is on a romantic date with Cloud, with a flower that has a romantic subtext. I am sorry but I do think Cloud at least picks up the intention behind Aerith's insistance and he disagrees with it. Also maybe that is a bit reflective of Aerith's comment in Under Junon and her being pissy about him giving the flower to Tifa. Those two scenes kind of answer each other.

I see your point. But I still think Cloud body language does not really reflect what you're implying. To me it's just Cloud being "Cloud". A pain in the ass lol. He's not happy the shop keeper is making fun of him.

Sure the moment has romantic subtext all over it. But it's from Aerith POV. And I think it's not really fair to put Cloud in it and implying he's saying subconscious things when from his POV he doesn't know shit about what's happening. He's just going with the flow of things until the infamous "Why are you so weird?"

That's the moment when events become too weird for him and he's really starting asking himself "what the fuck is going on?"

So yeah we disagree. Maybe we'll know more at the end of it all. It doesn't change anything to be honest. Conscious or not, he's not in love so whatever.

 

[nepheneethedestroyer]

There is just a lot I don't like that they did with Aerith's scenes in general but this dream date even with it's bitter truths shows me they keep using her for meta commentary they can just outright make scenes for.

In Remake I felt like she had an element of "meta" behind her and it made sense because she had the White Materia and all the knowledge of the future. Then in Rebirth they took it away...just to apparently give it back to her just for this date? It's weird for sure. I think ultimately a lot of this weirdness about the dream date I feel for me is that it's "Omni" Aerith acting in a lot of ways like a different version of herself?

In the GS date, it may seem she had moved on and is developing feelings for Cloud. However, it feels like Aerith has not gotten over Zack and her romantic feelings for him still linger in her heart. (whether she realizes it or not).

I really feel like both in OG and at least in the JP version of the high affect GS date, it feels like it perfectly nails the vibe of "I loved Zack, but he's gone. I'll admit that at first, the similarities between Zack, my former lover, and you, threw me off and that might be what kickstarted my affection for you. But I'm going to do my hardest to accept his loss, move on, and find the real you." (I really do not like that the English changes "I want to meet you" to "I want to be with you." It's a really jarring change especially since in the Ultimania, the devs specifically call out this section...in the OG they had it fine!). But then it gets rehashed in the dream date, by an Aerith that supposedly knows about the future in this weird pushy way? It's so weird.

That's the main reason why this scene bothers me. It goes against her character in my opinion. Basing everything on Cloud at that moment annoys me. Even more so if it's a bridge to Zack in the last game. As long as it wasn't something romantic but just a goodbye, turning everything into a date was a bad idea.

I feel like they did so much in this game to stress both that Aerith still is hung up on Zack, and that she cares not just about Cloud, but everybody, how she mourns the lack of normalcy in her life as a result of being a Cetra/being treated differently, how she wants to protect and be with all of her friends...and then a more omniscient version of her is focused on Cloud? It makes no sense to me.

I like to think since this is an Aerith who is more aware of things, enough to tell him not to feel guilty, that she is doing what she can to protect Cloud. She knows he’s fragile, and she cares for him deeply.

This was the only part of it that really made sense to me. If Aerith is actually aware of future events and wants to change the course of them this is the one thing she should be impressing upon Cloud since it will help avoid some of the tragedy of ACC.
--
Also I think when LunarTarotGirl says "disrespectful" it's more in the service of Aerith and the character overall as opposed to the specific niceties and manners of that moment and hurting Aerith's feelings in that moment.

 

[Yoru]

I feel like they did so much in this game to stress both that Aerith still is hung up on Zack, and that she cares not just about Cloud, but everybody, how she mourns the lack of normalcy in her life as a result of being a Cetra/being treated differently, how she wants to protect and be with all of her friends...and then a more omniscient version of her is focused on Cloud? It makes no sense to me.

Absolutely. This is where the weight of fandom really scares me, and I hope we're not witnessing their way of pleasing everyone. Because while fanservice works with Tifa (because you know... that's kind of how the story goes), it doesn't work so well with Aerith... because she's supposed to be more than just Cloud's counterpart. Even more so with the Re-trilogy.

 

[abzy1200]

And yeah Aerith's dream date never bothered me because it's a meta commentary. It's saying a lot of things, one of which is that those "AU" are, ultimately, fantasies not going to happen.

It also has references to Zack at every single turn.

 

[Stiggie]

Dear god, I just went in to the hell hole that is twitter for a few minutes and came back out with a deep hatred for the stupidity of mankind. This is why I can't let this subject go. People pretend it's about shipping butnits not, it's just that my brain absolutely cannot handle it when people act in a way that crosses the line into unnacceptable stupidity and dishonesty.

Ahhh, I'm still mad about it to the point where I will have difficulty sleeping after dealing with 5 minutes of this, it's so infuriating.
Apparently NPTK is a love song to Cloud, despite Nojima saying it isn't, he's wrong I guess. And apparently "sodane" isn't a confirmation anymore. God i hate this discussion, might even hate the game honestly, hard to like something that makes people this stupid. I just want the next game to come out, not so I can play it, but so that this discussion can die.

 

[Sacky]

i made this mistake, and right now its all about case of Tifa and how Cloud never loved her. Completely missing the point of the story

Dear god, I just went in to the hell hole that is twitter for a few minutes and came back out with a deep hatred for the stupidity of mankind. This is why I can't let this subject go. People pretend it's about shipping butnits not, it's just that my brain absolutely cannot handle it when people act in a way that crosses the line into unnacceptable stupidity and dishonesty.

Ahhh, I'm still mad about it to the point where I will have difficulty sleeping after dealing with 5 minutes of this, it's so infuriating.
Apparently NPTK is a love song to Cloud, despite Nojima saying it isn't, he's wrong I guess. And apparently "sodane" isn't a confirmation anymore. God i hate this discussion, might even hate the game honestly, hard to like something that makes people this stupid. I just want the next game to come out, not so I can play it, but so that this discussion can die.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well Nojima can't really do anything about interpretations I guess especially since even Uematsu and others were calling it a love song, when Nojima initially said what he did people were cancelling their preorders of NPTK and it went back into stock. I mean I get it now since he tripled down on it saying it wasn't specifically about her feelings for Cloud or even Zack but people already had time to form interpretations before then I guess. Everyone saying it's about Cloud, no it's about Zack to the extent Nojima had to triple down.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well Nojima can't really do anything about interpretations I guess especially since even Uematsu and others were calling it a love song, when Nojima initially said what he did people were cancelling their preorders of NPTK and it went back into stock. I mean I get it now since he tripled down on it saying it wasn't specifically about her feelings for Cloud or even Zack but people already had time to form interpretations before then I guess. Everyone saying it's about Cloud, no it's about Zack to the extent Nojima had to triple down.

The issue I have is that a lot these extremists seem fine with their interpretation, but whenever someone else's interpretation is not the same.... they are labeled as extremists for the other side. I'm gonna be honest, a lot of these fans do no favors for the characters they simp for. I've gotten to the point where I'll probably start hating Aerith because of some of her fans. That's not the character or the writer's fault though so I do try to resist it... but unfortunately, it may end up happening. LTD-brainrot eventually gets everyone.

Dear god, I just went in to the hell hole that is twitter for a few minutes and came back out with a deep hatred for the stupidity of mankind. This is why I can't let this subject go. People pretend it's about shipping butnits not, it's just that my brain absolutely cannot handle it when people act in a way that crosses the line into unnacceptable stupidity and dishonesty.

Ahhh, I'm still mad about it to the point where I will have difficulty sleeping after dealing with 5 minutes of this, it's so infuriating.
Apparently NPTK is a love song to Cloud, despite Nojima saying it isn't, he's wrong I guess. And apparently "sodane" isn't a confirmation anymore. God i hate this discussion, might even hate the game honestly, hard to like something that makes people this stupid. I just want the next game to come out, not so I can play it, but so that this discussion can die.

i made this mistake, and right now its all about case of Tifa and how Cloud never loved her. Completely missing the point of the story

Well, if it's any consolation, the people on Twitter are a vocal minority who are just being LOUD about their "interpretation" of canon.

I think most people that have consumed FF7 in good faith would not be making these arguments. Not just because it makes the characters bad, but it also sends a bad message.

To be honest, all I see is rabid shippers screeching about something that isn't going their way. They've lived 27 years with their interpretation and they've put too much into it to let it go and accept defeat. I think even if they are saying stuff like the Cloti kiss is optional or fanservice, they know deep down that they are losing and so what we are experiencing is simultaneously large amounts of copium but also a large-scale death rattle before the inevitable.

It's like I said earlier, Square Enix has played their hand. If they don't follow through with it, they've chickened out last minute. Clerith fans show up on every video that doesn't even have to do with Aerith in particular and talk about how Cloud loves Aerith or something. It really does just feel like "We have to gaslight everyone into believing it so they ignore the actual story."

They know they've lost. Nojima has double downed and has also basically shot down a whole lot of their assertions, so they have to cope and ignore the author.

I think this is why people genuinely ignore the LTD. It is probably the worst aspect of this fandom and Square Enix, if they truly want to end this remake trilogy without any "unresolved feelings"... then they really need to put it to bed. I can somewhat understand why they haven't up until now as the LTD does help marketing and they do want to sell FF7 stuff to both sides, but if this is truly the last time they intend to explore FF7 to this level then this really needs closure.

 

[Sacky]

The issue I have is that a lot these extremists seem fine with their interpretation, but whenever someone else's interpretation is not the same.... they are labeled as extremists for the other side. I'm gonna be honest, a lot of these fans do no favors for the characters they simp for. I've gotten to the point where I'll probably start hating Aerith because of some of her fans. That's not the character or the writer's fault though so I do try to resist it... but unfortunately, it may end up happening. LTD-brainrot eventually gets everyone.


Well, if it's any consolation, the people on Twitter are a vocal minority who are just being LOUD about their "interpretation" of canon.

I think most people that have consumed FF7 in good faith would not be making these arguments. Not just because it makes the characters bad, but it also send a bad message.

To be honest, all I see is rabid shippers screeching about something that isn't going their way. They've lived 27 years with their interpretation and they've put too much into it to let it go and accept defeat. I think even if they are saying stuff like the Cloti kiss is optional or fanservice, they know deep down that they are losing and so what we are experiencing is simultaneously large amounts of copium but also a large-scale death rattle before the inevitable.

It's like I said earlier, Square Enix has played their hand. If they don't follow through with it, they've chickened out last minute. Clerith fans show up on every video that doesn't even have to do with Aerith in particular and talk about how Cloud loves Aerith or something. It really does just feel like "We have to gaslight everyone into believing it so they ignore the actual story."

They know they've lost. Nojima has double downed and has also basically shot down a whole lot of their assertions, so they have to cope and ignore the author.

I think this is why people genuinely ignore the LTD. It is probably the worst aspect of this fandom and Square Enix , if they truly want to end this remake trilogy without any "unresolved feelings"... then they really need to put it to bed. I can somewhat understand why they haven't up until now as the LTD does help marketing and they do want to sell FF7 stuff to both sides, but if this is truly the last time they intend to explore FF7 to this level then this really needs closure.

Iv'e seen so many posts about how the romance should be a choice, like persona or multiple endings for pairings. This is the worst possible thing cause it abandons all storytelling and all character history and moments to end up with a blank slate romance depending on choice just to satisfy the player and is the least creative thing a story can have. With multiple endings, you can throw anything and it will work; there's no flow to it. They only work if the game has story choices that have caused differences. Or is a blank slate character based game. But a story setting up relationships and bonds and history to throw that out for player choice which people have been spoilt with honestly a terrible idea. One person even said have it so if you choose Aerith then Tifa gets paired off with someone else, and the other way round? This means they don't respect the characters stories or writing and just want to pass them off to have their choice its so weird.

 

[overheat28]

Personally never got the feeling the dream date was about Cloud specifically, it was about Aerith and her feelings no matter what level of interpretation you're going for. Aside from the purpose of giving Cloud the materia, this was all about what Aerith feels
regarding her romantic feelings, her impending fate, and friendship with Cloud.

Imo, devs were throwing Clerith a bone and simultaneously showing why it could never work from an Aerith POV because we already got why it couldnt work from a Cloud POV throughout the entire game. It was done very earnestly. They gave them an intimate moment in the literal landscape of Aerith's mind. No extraneous environmental factors (Kalm, Costa Del Sol, no other party members). This was her last chance, she knew Sephiroth was coming. So she took it - can I make this work? Can I find the real Cloud like I wanted to at GS? Are my feelings for him real or just a Zack shaped mirage? This was also supposedly omniAerith and she's probably had much more time to consider her feelings than RebirthAerith.

So this date was as close as they could possibly get to the heart of the matter concerning Aerith's feelings. Cleriths should be a little flattered that the devs felt the need to go to this extent to shutdown 27 years worth of argument, imo. This was not an insult, but a tip of the hat from the POV of the woman herself.

It was also a viking funeral both for the ship and omniAerith. What do we discover? Her mind is a literal Zack theme park, no other way to say it. Only thing missing was a statue of the dude in mid-squat. The fact she was still wearing the bow and the pink dress in her own dreamworld says it all.

The deck was always loaded against Clerith - it could never work, and it is most apparent in her very mind. Zack will always be the ultimate comparison where Aerith is concerned. If I recall, the banner of the spiky haired Stamp carrying the injured blonde dog is right around the photographer area. This Stamp has a blue skies collar - like they're not even trying to hide the Zack symbolism. Incidentally, this is the only part of the date Cloud actually seems to enjoy and it occurs under the auspices of a huge Zack symbol reminding people exactly what he did for Cloud. Zack also shows up regularly throughout the date and the next shot after she says "our place" is Zack sitting at said place while Cloud has no clue. It's supposed to feel wrong in every way. But Aerith caught up in the moment and desperate to make it work, doesn't realize it until the very end where she finally accepts the truth - this thing with Cloud simply cannot be. This whole date is the answer to Marlene's words to Zack and the GS date. Aerith never found the true Cloud and even if she did, it wouldn't work anyway.

There are ultimately many valid interpretations of this sequence at different levels, thematically rich all. But the devs were pointing to something at a basic level that would be a disservice to gloss over just because shipping wars are distasteful. Just as Aerith ultimately cannot escape her story fate, all roads lead back to Zack for her. And now we have Aerith's answer in addition to Cloud's (like vs like like). Could it have been much clearer? Yes. But the date accomplished what they were going for - a litmus test of her feelings in as intimate a setting as possible. That is enough, imo.

 

[GamerSkull]

Iv'e seen so many posts about how the romance should be a choice, like persona or multiple endings for pairings. This is the worst possible thing cause it abandons all storytelling and all character history and moments to end up with a blank slate romance depending on choice just to satisfy the player and is the least creative thing a story can have. With multiple endings, you can throw anything and it will work; there's no flow to it. They only work if the game has story choices that have caused differences. Or is a blank slate character based game. But a story setting up relationships and bonds and history to throw that out for player choice which people have been spoilt with honestly a terrible idea. One person even said have it so if you choose Aerith then Tifa gets paired off with someone else, and the other way round? This means they don't respect the characters stories or writing and just want to pass them off to have their choice its so weird.

To be honest, this smells like bullshit.

From everything I've seen, nobody wants it to be a choice. Cloti fans want theirs to be the only choice, and Clerith fans want theirs to be the only the choice. It still feels like bullshit. CA fans only want it to be a "choice" because they can see the writing on the wall even subconsciously. Regardless of whether or not they think hand-holding is more romantic than a kiss (which is ridiculous by the way and they know it), the fact that one girl got a kiss and the other didn't is worthy of notice. They want it to be "optional", but they don't actually want that. They want it because deep down they feel they might lose. If it were truly up to them, they'd have Clerith 100% be canon. But if it's at least optional, they can "half-win".

They're essentially in the bargaining phase, although I'd argue they are experiencing it simultaneously with the denial phase.

Also, I feel like this goes without saying at this point but just to be clear, I'm only referring to the extremists.

 

[imach0c0]

I really feel like both in OG and at least in the JP version of the high affect GS date, it feels like it perfectly nails the vibe of "I loved Zack, but he's gone. I'll admit that at first, the similarities between Zack, my former lover, and you, threw me off and that might be what kickstarted my affection for you. But I'm going to do my hardest to accept his loss, move on, and find the real you." (I really do not like that the English changes "I want to meet you" to "I want to be with you." It's a really jarring change especially since in the Ultimania, the devs specifically call out this section...in the OG they had it fine!). But then it gets rehashed in the dream date, by an Aerith that supposedly knows about the future in this weird pushy way? It's so weird.

Based on the JP version, I can see that interpretation. However, specific to Rebirth during the Gongaga scene when Aerith says she "maybe" still likes Zack and her like vs like dialogue in the dream date, I can see Aerith still having lingering feelings for Zack (deep inside her heart) although she implies to move on from him in the GS date. So it makes sense why she is trying to have a moment with Cloud but her feelings are confusing at the end because she never really moved on from Zack.

 

[GamerSkull]

Looks like the script is nearing completion and voice recording will begin soon for Part 3.

Whatever this new thing they're pitching is... it makes me anxious rather than excited. I don't think it has anything to do with the LTD though.

I definitely think a 2027 release is likely unless there are delays.

 

[imach0c0]

Personally never got the feeling the dream date was about Cloud specifically, it was about Aerith and her feelings no matter what level of interpretation you're going for. Aside from the purpose of giving Cloud the materia, this was all about what Aerith feels
regarding her romantic feelings, her impending fate, and friendship with Cloud.

Imo, devs were throwing Clerith a bone and simultaneously showing why it could never work from an Aerith POV because we already got why it couldnt work from a Cloud POV throughout the entire game. It was done very earnestly. They gave them an intimate moment in the literal landscape of Aerith's mind. No extraneous environmental factors (Kalm, Costa Del Sol, no other party members). This was her last chance, she knew Sephiroth was coming. So she took it - can I make this work? Can I find the real Cloud like I wanted to at GS? Are my feelings for him real or just a Zack shaped mirage? This was also supposedly omniAerith and she's probably had much more time to consider her feelings than RebirthAerith.

So this date was as close as they could possibly get to the heart of the matter concerning Aerith's feelings. Cleriths should be a little flattered that the devs felt the need to go to this extent to shutdown 27 years worth of argument, imo. This was not an insult, but a tip of the hat from the POV of the woman herself.

It was also a viking funeral both for the ship and omniAerith. What do we discover? Her mind is a literal Zack theme park, no other way to say it. Only thing missing was a statue of the dude in mid-squat. The fact she was still wearing the bow and the pink dress in her own dreamworld says it all.

The deck was always loaded against Clerith - it could never work, and it is most apparent in her very mind. Zack will always be the ultimate comparison where Aerith is concerned. If I recall, the banner of the spiky haired Stamp carrying the injured blonde dog is right around the photographer area. This Stamp has a blue skies collar - like they're not even trying to hide the Zack symbolism. Incidentally, this is the only part of the date Cloud actually seems to enjoy and it occurs under the auspices of a huge Zack symbol reminding people exactly what he did for Cloud. Zack also shows up regularly throughout the date and the next shot after she says "our place" is Zack sitting at said place while Cloud has no clue. It's supposed to feel wrong in every way. But Aerith caught up in the moment and desperate to make it work, doesn't realize it until the very end where she finally accepts the truth - this thing with Cloud simply cannot be. This whole date is the answer to Marlene's words to Zack and the GS date. Aerith never found the true Cloud and even if she did, it wouldn't work anyway.

There are ultimately many valid interpretations of this sequence at different levels, thematically rich all. But the devs were pointing to something at a basic level that would be a disservice to gloss over just because shipping wars are distasteful. Just as Aerith ultimately cannot escape her story fate, all roads lead back to Zack for her. And now we have Aerith's answer in addition to Cloud's (like vs like like). Could it have been much clearer? Yes. But the date accomplished what they were going for - a litmus test of her feelings in as intimate a setting as possible. That is enough, imo.

I think part of where the discourse comes from is people who played the Aerith route for the game. I've seen many interpretations that the NPTK performance with Aerith looking at Cloud and him holding the flower petal was a confirmation of their romantic love for each other. As well as the GS date (with cloud holding her hand in "lovers" way.

So during the dream date, when Aerith and Cloud reach the church and Cloud either says "next time" or "why not," these groups of people claim that this is further evidence that Cloud romantically likes Aerith and wants to be with her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I really don’t know how to interpret that moment in any other way. I thought Cloud’s reaction was very strange because what reason does he have to not take it?

Because he shouldn't be giving a pin to Aerith that represents reunions when he knows she's not going to get one with Zack. He's trying not to give false hope or dig the knife in deeper. He doesn't know it's not Beagle Aerith.

Plus, he had gotten chewed out for re-gifting the flower earlier. He might not want that brought up again.

At this point I would not be surprised. If that's the correct intention then it's also showing me Zack deserves the flower way more than Cloud.

And again why is her farewell all about this guy? Is my main thought here if that's the case.

I think her farewell was about getting the White Materia to Cloud. The date was a little bit of self indulgence while she had the chance. One last hurrah, for closure's sake.

To be honest, this smells like bullshit.

From everything I've seen, nobody wants it to be a choice. Cloti fans want theirs to be the only choice, and Clerith fans want theirs to be the only the choice. It still feels like bullshit. CA fans only want it to be a "choice" because they can see the writing on the wall even subconsciously. Regardless of whether or not they think hand-holding is more romantic than a kiss (which is ridiculous by the way and they know it), the fact that one girl got a kiss and the other didn't is worthy of notice. They want it to be "optional", but they don't actually want that. They want it because deep down they feel they might lose. If it were truly up to them, they'd have Clerith 100% be canon. But if it's at least optional, they can "half-win".

They're essentially in the bargaining phase, although I'd argue they are experiencing it simultaneously with the denial phase.

Also, I feel like this goes without saying at this point but just to be clear, I'm only referring to the extremists.

I forget if I've mentioned this before, but it's Clerith of the gaps. "Oh, it's all optional (and Aerith is the correct option)." I know I've mentioned Motte and Bailey arguments recently.
It is 1000% bullshit.

 

[Sacky]

Looks like the script is nearing completion and voice recording will begin soon for Part 3.

Whatever this new thing they're pitching is... it makes me anxious rather than excited. I don't think it has anything to do with the LTD though.

I definitely think a 2027 release is likely unless there are delays.

Predictions on what the new thing could be?

 

[GamerSkull]

Predictions on what the new thing could be?

Honestly, just hoping for extended epilogues.

 

[Hellenic]

Well Nojima can't really do anything about interpretations I guess especially since even Uematsu and others were calling it a love song, when Nojima initially said what he did people were cancelling their preorders of NPTK and it went back into stock. I mean I get it now since he tripled down on it saying it wasn't specifically about her feelings for Cloud or even Zack but people already had time to form interpretations before then I guess. Everyone saying it's about Cloud, no it's about Zack to the extent Nojima had to triple down.

There is a vinyl version of it or something? Or why are there specific preorders for the song itself when it's part of the game OST itself?