SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

idk i stopped speaking with them. They said i saw your advent children evidence yet still said they think Cloud wasn't happy with Tifa the first years even though theres legit 5 quotes from devs about it. So whats even the point in discussing anymore

Hmmm then yeah their mind is made up. Best not argue further. It won't convince them no one will, except themselves.

And that's the thing about LTD arguing makes people more entrenched in their view. What changes minds is letting people come to their own conclusions about things when they experience things for themselves. Which feels counterintuitive but it really is true we can't force or argue our way into others accepting our view I guess.

But hopefully pt 3 and the devs themselves give a satisfactory conclusion where no one needs convincing.

Edit: I misread a line. Corrected it.

 

[nars305]

New claim: Tifa wasn't as into Cloud in Rebirth as she was in OG.........

 

[Yoru]

idk i stopped speaking with them. They said i saw your advent children evidence yet still said they think Cloud wasn't happy with Tifa the first years even though theres legit 5 quotes from devs about it. So whats even the point in discussing anymore

There is no point. They don't even like Aerith. They just like the idea they've built up in their heads.

They have to portray Cloud so much as the ultimate asshole on earth to make their ship work and make sense with the official material that's it's impossible to look me in the eye and assure me that there's no problem with this kind of guy being the right man for their favorite FF girl.

Someone who uses his childhood friend sentimental distress to steal a kiss because he wants to get back at Aerith for still having feelings for Zack, or who decides to ghost a woman for 1 year after forcing a dependent child on her, is supposed to be Prince Charming for your princess? Don't make me laugh.

They don't care about FF7. They don't care about the characters. They just want their stupid ship.

 

[nars305]

There is no point. They don't even like Aerith. They just like the idea they've built up in their heads.

There really isn’t a point.

As I flow deeper into the LTD I realize that even more. I’ll never chime in to have a “discussion” with anyone.

It goes back to the fact of the kiss. Apparently there were people who were sure Aerith and Cloud would kiss. To the point of taunting that it was going to be what ended it all for Cloud and Tifa. Then we see how that goes and now a kiss is meaningless, physical and not emotional, spiteful, and on and on nonsense.

There are just some people who it does not matter. NOTHING will change their mind, not even the game itself.

I was thinking about that. How if the third part just makes it so glaringly obvious Cloud and Tifa are mutually in love it wouldn’t matter. They’d say well he leaves her in AC- completely neglecting how AC ends and what it was even about. Even if the third part proves they are romantically involved it won’t matter, it’s just a retcon or fan service.

There’s just no point in trying.

 

[abzy1200]

There is no point. They don't even like Aerith. They just like the idea they've built up in their heads.

They have to portray Cloud so much as the ultimate asshole on earth to make their ship work and make sense with the official material that's it's impossible to look me in the eye and assure me that there's no problem with this kind of guy being the right man for their favorite FF girl.

Someone who uses his childhood friend sentimental distress to steal a kiss because he wants to get back at Aerith for still having feelings for Zack, or who decides to ghost a woman for 1 year after forcing a dependent child on her, is supposed to be Prince Charming for your princess? Don't make me laugh.

They don't care about FF7. They don't care about the characters. They just want their stupid ship.

The Clerith version of Cloud is a version of Cloud who doesn't deserve either women.

And they really advocate for it too, proudly.

 

[nars305]

Random question, but was there some sort of hint I missed as to why Zack has a Cloud and Aerith in his world that don’t wake up?

 

[SilverSisu]

Random question, but was there some sort of hint I missed as to why Zack has a Cloud and Aerith in his world that don’t wake up?

Not really.

 

[Rin]

What about the one at the end of the game though?

Context also matters there. Cloud was comforting Aerith in the GS date and now Aerith is comforting Cloud at the end of the game, as she's no longer physically with him (which he's mentally refusing to accept). It's also an ACC callback to when they stand back to back, she even says the exact same line as in the movie.

 

[Yoru]

Random question, but was there some sort of hint I missed as to why Zack has a Cloud and Aerith in his world that don’t wake up?

No. If Zack's world appeals to normal logic, we can assume that Cloud is still in his Mako overdose phase and that Aerith is simply in a coma after a fatal fall caused by the giant tornado that tore through Midgar.

The real question is : Are there two Clouds? Why is the one that's supposed to be with Avalanche nowhere to be found/has been transferred to Zack's Cloud?

 

[Suffi]

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

 

[Yoru]

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

No we hate liars, people refusing to aknowlege official materials and more or less, people not respecting the story of the FF7 Compilation.

Clerith are more than welcome. Ship is something for fun. Good for them if they find Aerith and Cloud looking good together. Nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong is gaslighting others that disagree with this ship being canon when the story ends.

 

[Suffi]

What's wrong is gaslighting others that disagree with this ship being canon when the story ends.

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

 

[abzy1200]

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

Clotis aren't gaslighting people into thinking Cloti and Zerith are canon, it's literally just the truth.

Toxicity exists everywhere, though. No side is without blame when it comes to toxicity.

 

[Yoru]

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

I've seen some of them over-interpret things. No doubt. I've seen others undervalue the importance of Aerith in Cloud's life. Sure.

But I haven't seen any of them provide false translations, take chunks of pages without considering the rest of the book they're using as a source, or contradict developers' statements.

And I certainly don't see any of them using 20-year-old sources already debunked a thousand times to make a point.

And lately, I definitely haven't seen them being mysogynistic.

But yes, there is toxicity everywhere, and even here we've put some stupid Cloti back in their place.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

I'm literally a Clerith fan. But I don't deal in using my bias to win an argument.
Evidence is not what we wish was there. It's what is actually there. And we can discuss it openly without ruining characters or implying they're unimportant. Or that one is a bully or whatever else gets spread in this fandom that makes no sense.
And it's really really weird to think the devs would make a character that kisses a woman because he can't be with another which is the current topic.

Yes that character would not deserve either woman. That character would be a jerk plain and simple. That is not what I want for my ship.

And I don't think that's what the devs want for their characters either.

Yes there are CTs that do the same, extremists who only see their side exist everywhere is that any excuse though to follow their lead?
No. It's no excuse.

 

[GamerSkull]

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

I agree there are extremists on both sides and no amount of gaslighting is okay whether you are CA or CT.

However, seeing stuff like "Tifa is a bad person" or "their GS date kiss means nothing" or "Cloud never loved Tifa" or "Cloud only loved Tifa in the past" or even that "the Tifa kiss is just a rebound thing" are all takes that I'm sure you can understand us being frustrated with.

Now, if CT fans on Twitter and Reddit (which I agree are full of this) say the same about Aerith then I would have to say that I think that is pretty bad and should not continue either. And I invite them to come here and say so. I think most on this forum would probably empathize with that and accept them with open arms. I certainly would.

That's probably why this thread seems a bit one-sided. A lot of the takes presented here are the more extremist ones, at least those are the ones people seem to be frustrated with.

 

[nars305]

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

Anyone can be toxic. If there’s something I dislike it’s only a take. I only really dislike takes that are lies, ignore the narrative, or shit on any of the characters.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I've seen some of them over-interpret things. No doubt. I've seen others undervalue the importance of Aerith in Cloud's life. Sure.

But I haven't seen any of them provide false translations, take chunks of pages without considering the rest of the book they're using as a source, or contradict developers' statements.

And I certainly don't see any of them using 20-year-old sources already debunked a thousand times to make a point.

And lately, I definitely haven't seen them being mysogynistic.

But yes, there is toxicity everywhere, and even here we've put some stupid Cloti back in their place.

I have seen CTs that are just if not more misogynistic. Even had to block a few lately. I have personally come across some as welll that haven't been great nor the most honest either. But that doesn't paint the entire fandom because of the choices of individuals. I've met just as many CTs that are honest and against misogyny and have called it out too.
And that doesn't absolve anyone to say oh they do it too so we're not in the wrong. That's just deflection. If anyone is being misogynistic or unfair they should get called out. CA or CT alike. But I don't appreciate this tactic of not accepting the wrongdoings of people "on my own side/team just because of the actions of others. In an environment like that we can only get echo chambers and no one taking accountability.

 

[GamerSkull]

I have seen CTs that are just if not more misogynistic. Even had to block a few lately. I have personally come across some as welll that haven't been great nor the most honest either. But that doesn't paint the entire fandom because of the choices of individuals. I've met just as many CTs that are honest and against misogyny and have called it out too. And that doesn't absolve anyone to say oh they do it too so we're not in the wrong. That's just deflection. If anyone is being misogynistic or unfair they should get called out. CA or CT alike. But I don't appreciate this tactic of not accepting the wrongdoings of people my "own side just" because of the actions of others. In an environment like that we can only get echo chambers and no one taking accountability.

I agree with this. Regardless of whether or not you are CT or CA... people really need to stop with the extremism.

Honestly, I think as long as both sides aren't obtuse about presenting their "evidence" and they are making sure their translations are accurate, then we can probably solve a lot of the toxicity. I feel like this is the only requirement.

 

[Suffi]

The Clerith version of Cloud is a version of Cloud who doesn't deserve either women.

And they really advocate for it too, proudly.

As a Clerith fan, I find this false. You are kind of putting all fans of clerith into this toxic box. Really the game presents that Cloud is too young and inexperience to pursue anything. But by Advent Children we know he is living with Tifa (I think Barret lives there too time to time) and has adopted a family.

Editing for misspellings.

 

[Elkazor]

If there is ever made to be canon ships for the LTD, imo that would weaken the overall story and experience. That to me is why there are options for other characters to date. I say this because at the end of the day, it's a side quest. Who ends up with who isn't the main point of FFVII, and imo it shouldn't be.

The story, imo, works whether or not anyone has romantic feelings for anyone else.

I've now heard both Cleriths and Clotis insist that their ship is canon and the other side just "doesn't care about FFVII or its characters" and honestly that attitude, from both sides, is getting really bothersome.

Not to mention, does whether or not the ship is canon really matter that much to your ship? I'm sure the validation would always be really nice, but you can still enjoy your ship all you want either way.

One discussion I'd love to have more of is the potential validity of Aerti or Clarret. Let's give love to the gay ships just as much as the straight ones I say!

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

As a Clerith fan, I find this false. You are kind of putting all fans of clerith into this toxic box. Really the game presents that Cloud is too young and inexperience to pursue anything. But by Advent Children we know he is living with Tifa (I think Barret lives there too time to time) and has adopted a family.

Editing for misspellings.

They are saying that in response for some current bad takes. This one for example: "And it's really really weird to think the devs would make a character that kisses a woman because he can't be with another which is the current topic."

And yes I know not all Cleriths believe that. But that's what is currently being spread around: Cloud kissed Tifa because he was mad about Aerith talking about her feelings for Zack which is why he brought it up at the date.

Which yeah that would be a very bad version of Cloud. But many are agreeing.

Edit: Added details

 

[Suffi]

One discussion I'd love to have more of is the potential validity of Aerti or Clarret. Let's give love to the gay ships just as much as the straight ones I say!

this person gets it.

 

[abzy1200]

As a Clerith fan, I find this false. You are kind of putting all fans of clerith into this toxic box. Really the game presents that Cloud is too young and inexperience. But by Advent Children we know he is living with Tifa (I think Barret lives there too time to time) and have adopted a family.

Cloud set a life goal to be a "special existance" to Tifa, and is now raising a child with her after confirming mutual feelings of love on the night before they fought Sepiroth.

The problem I have with Clerith is that it being canon in any major capacity sort of makes Cloud out to be a prick, straight up.

If there is ever made to be canon ships for the LTD, imo that would weaken the overall story and experience. That to me is why there are options for other characters to date. I say this because at the end of the day, it's a side quest. Who ends up with who isn't the main point of FFVII, and imo it shouldn't be.

The story, imo, works whether or not anyone has romantic feelings for anyone else.

I've now heard both Cleriths and Clotis insist that their ship is canon and the other side just "doesn't care about FFVII or its characters" and honestly that attitude, from both sides, is getting really bothersome.

Not to mention, does whether or not the ship is canon really matter that much to your ship? I'm sure the validation would always be really nice, but you can still enjoy your ship all you want either way.

One discussion I'd love to have more of is the potential validity of Aerti or Clarret. Let's give love to the gay ships just as much as the straight ones I say!

Cloud, the main character, can only have his story work if Cloti exists, so no, this isn't a case of "ff7 isn't about romance."

The sub-plot of this game is Cloud's identity issues, which is a plotline that can only exist if Cloti does.

 

[Yoru]

I have seen CTs that are just if not more misogynistic. Even had to block a few lately. I have personally come across some as welll that haven't been great nor the most honest either. But that doesn't paint the entire fandom because of the choices of individuals. And that doesn't absolve anyone to say oh they do it too so we're not in the wrong. That's just deflection. If anyone is being misogynistic or unfair they should get called out. CA or CT alike. But I don't appreciate this tactic of not accepting the wrongdoings of people my "own side just" because of the actions of others. In an environment like that we can only get echo chambers and no one taking accountability.

I'm just talking about what I see, what's shared here every day.

I never said there were only angels in Cloti.

But I'm sorry, lately (and above all with the Remake and Rebirth period) it's not really the Cloti side that needs to prove anything. They're more in a defensive position.

And once again. I don't give a shit about ships. I'm just following the story of FF7 as I've been told and as I understand it. That's as far as it goes. Tifa is a character in her own right. I don't care about couples. The game decided to make her part of the hero's personal story. That's all there is to it. If it told me she didn't give a damn about him, it would be the same thing and I'll be the first one to defend Cloud and Aerith.

So yeah, I may not know what I'm talking about. I never been a part of this war. Never had a blog or something like that.

I'm just tired of defending the game's story.