The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

I believe these are what you're looking for, Sikozu:

pg. 29 of the UO
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Searching for the Real Cloud
"I'm searching for you"; "So you don't have a breakdown" -- her words to Cloud carry various deep meanings. Although it hasn't been long since they met, she perceives that the current Cloud is not his natural self. Could this also be because of the wondrous powers she inherited?

[Screenshot caption below image of Aerith in Cloud's dream of the Sleeping Forest]
Appearing in Cloud's dream, she departs with words of concern for Cloud's crumbling mind in this memorable scene.

Japanese text:
本当のクラウドを探して
「あなたを探してる」「自分が壊れてしまわないように」――彼女のクラウドへの言葉は意味深なものが多い。出会って間もないのに、目の前のクラウドが本来の彼ではないと見抜いたようだ。それもまた、生まれ持った不思議な力によるのだろうか。

[Screenshot caption below image of Aerith in Cloud's dream of the Sleeping Forest]
クラウドの夢に現れ、クラウドの心の崩壊を気にする言葉を残して去る印象的な場面。

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/aerithperceives2_zpscf5941e3.jpg
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pg. 31 of the UO
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"......first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike.
Two completely different people, but look exactly the same.
The way you walk, gesture...
I think I must have seen him again, in you...
But you're different.
Things are different.
Cloud...
I'm searching for you."
"I want to meet...you."
―To Cloud, during the Gold Saucer date

As she notices Cloud and Zack's overlapping traits, Aerith determines that this isn't Cloud's natural self. The meaningful lines "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" indicate that she has perceived that the current Cloud is not his genuine personality.

Japanese text:
「……はじめはね。そっくりだったから気になった。
全然別人なんだけど、そっくり。
歩き方、手の動かし方、……。あなたの中に彼を見ていた……。
でも、ちがうの。いまは、ちがう……。」
「ね、クラウド。わたし、あなたをさがしてる。
あなたに……会いたい」
――ゴールドソーサーでのデートで、クラウドに向かって

クラウドがザックスと重なっていることを感じつつ、それが本来のクラウドではないと見抜くエアリス。「あなたをさがしてる」「あなたに会いたい」とは、目の前にいるクラウド自身も気づいていない本当の彼の存在を見透かした、意味深い発言だ。

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/aerithperceives3_zps3bca87fc.jpg
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pg. 156 of the UO
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"So you don't have a breakdown ..."
Appearing in Cloud's dream to console him, she offers this advice. This line indicates that she has perceived Cloud's true nature (>P.29).

[Screenshot caption next to image of Aerith in Cloud's dream of the Sleeping Forest]
In line with her concerns, Cloud goes after her ... (>P.164).

Japanese text:
「自分が壊れてしまわないように」
クラウドの夢枕に立ったエアリスは、彼をいたわるように、こう忠告する。エアリスがクラウドの本質を見抜いていたことがうかがえるセリフだ（→P.29）。

[Screenshot caption next to image of Aerith in Cloud's dream of the Sleeping Forest]
彼女の心配どおり、のちにクラウドは……（→P.164）。

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/aerithperceives4_zpsdf90a449.jpg
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pg. 48 of the 10th AU (pg. 50 of the Revised Edition)
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Despite sensing that Cloud had lost his natural self, Aerith still holds favor for him. Even while working to fulfill her mission as an Ancient, she is concerned for him to the very moment of her death.

Japanese text:
クラウドが本来の自分を見失っていると気づきながらも、彼に好意を包いたエアリス。古代種としての使命を果たそうとする一方で、最期まで彼のことを気にかけていた。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/aerithperceives5_zps97e5a4f9.jpg
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If you are saying Cloud wouldn't help just ANYONE then what makes her SOMEONE he would help?

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I hate this portrait of Cloud as someone who would leave a fucking flowergirl in the hands of fully armed Turks, knowing fully well what they are paid to do.

There is a difference between a showoff Cloud and an unfeeling automaton. And if that's what he was, I too would like to know how Aeris magically turned him into a real boy with real feelings willing to infiltrate Shinra to help her.

Some fucking consistency please.

TBH, I think Cloud was still in his mercenary mode at that time. But I think Aerith charmed him enough that he was willing to be her bodyguard in exchange for a date (ie no money) Doubt he would have done that for say...some sort of syphillitic old bum (I mean the no money thing, not the date thing) He's not a monster and he feels responsible for Aerith getting captured despite his attempts to keep her out of it.

The LTD over article is the gift that keeps on giving. I do so love seeing "I am not a shipper/neutral" followed by every insanely idiotic clerith argument you can imagine.

I don't care how many times you say it buddy. If you start citing artwork to support C/A you might as well be holding a neon sign saying "desperate C/A shipper" with an arrow pointing down.

Just thought I'd stop by since this thread is still technically available to both Cloti and Clerith shippers. And yes, I know everyone will post long rebuttals to what I have to say...but I thought I'd give you guys some food for thought:

1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be default/canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. So if the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does it also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date (even though in other places SE says the Clerith date is canon)?

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what? Is the FTOIL page the final word regarding the Highwind scene but not Cloud's date?

If you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can’t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional? SE does, after-all, point out the optionality of the Highwind scene on three separate occasions.

It seems that SE says one thing one place and then something completely different in another place. They aren't consistent with either the Highwind scene or Cloud's date. So whose to determine what supersedes what?

Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable? And maybe, just maybe, that’s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene has been used it was simply being used as a placeholder.

4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about 'words not being the only way to show someone how you feel' is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the confining nature and specific CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. But the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.

5. Tifa and Cloud share an intimate nonverbal moment in both versions of the Highwind scene. In fact, the picture used on the FTOIL page is a moment that is in both the low affection and high affection version — Tifa resting her head on Cloud.

In both versions, after this intimate moment takes place, Tifa and Cloud go back aboard the Highwind and a conversation unfolds where they agree that they aren’t afraid to face Sephiroth because they have each other. Since this conversation aboard the Highwind happens in both versions, these feelings can either be platonic or romantic.

Mutual feelings and intimate moments are in both versions, therefore it is never clear which version SE is referring to when they say Cloud and Tifa’s feelings matched below the Highwind.

5. There is just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence. Even if the the HAHW scene is canon, that doesn’t take away all of the Clerith evidence, nor does it take away Cloud’s separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith. Maybe the canon answer is that he loved both women romantically?

In addition, the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC is VERY ambiguous, and there are tons of quotes/evidence that pokes holes in the idea that they are in a romantic relationship. In fact, there is no explicit romantic scene shown between them (contrary to virtually all other canon Final Fantasy couples).

Here are some other things I've been observing regarding the love triangle:

Whenever I read articles revolving around love that are from generic video game websites, I notice that most of the time Cloud x Aerith are viewed as the intended pairing of Final Fantasy VII.

Here are the three examples I’m referring to:

1. The Greatest Video Game Couples ~IGN
"Cloud and Aerith (Final Fantasy VII)
Sometimes video games genuinely shock you – and Aerith’s untimely death was one of those moments. The game seemed to be setting her up to be hero Cloud Strife’s main love interest, and then suddenly (before even the end of the first disc, for heaven’s sake) she’s dead, just like that.”
2. 5 Worst Final Fantasy Couples ~GamesRadar
“Final Fantasy VII is fondly remembered by its fans as a love story – specifically, a love story between spiky-haired mercenary Cloud and dowdy flower girl Aerith. But as many of you probably already know, it doesn’t have to be that way.
The pivotal moment in the game’s romance subplot comes while the party is staying overnight at the Golden Saucer amusement park. Most players will see the following sequence unfold as a date between Cloud and Aerith, but if you play your cards a little differently, Cloud will ignore Aerith in favor of busty martial artist Tifa. And if you play your cards wrong, he’ll end up going on a date with his hulking, gun-armed best friend, Barret.”
3. Dating according to videogames ~GamesRadar
“…This shows her that he’s sensitive and appreciates her useless hobby, which sets her at ease and plants the first seeds of their legendary romance…”

Click to expand...

Obviously some websites refer to Cloud x Tifa — but I think this happens less frequently, which speaks to a much larger point. If you only played the original game, the romance between Cloud and Aerith is obvious to the majority of gamers. Although the compilation material might lead some to a different conclusion —or simply reaffirm Cloud x Aerith— it seems that for the majority of those who have only played the original game, they tend to believe Cloud x Aerith are the primary Final Fantasy VII couple. And this isn’t by accident.

When you play the original game, it is obvious SE is setting up Cloud and Aerith to be the primary romantic couple of the game. The flirtatious and romantic undertones during their interactions are obvious.

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII. This, of course, leads to Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith’s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, and an “undying” feeling for Aerith that becomes “engraved in his heart.” According to SE, Cloud is Aerith’s koibito, and her consciousness lives on inside of him. His heart broke when she died. If you can’t see the romance between these two you are either delusional, or have an unreasonable bias against Clerith, especially if you consider that a love triangle is specifically incorporated into Final Fantasy VII.

And because the Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is not only canon, but also the most common date to achieve, most gamers (who have probably never read anything about the love triangle debate) walk away from the game remembering that Cloud and Aerith share a date. A date, mind you, that occurred after numerous romantic moments. Furthermore, Cloud’s reaction to Aerith’s death was more emotional than everyone else’s reaction for a reason — he had a romantic love for Aerith, whereas everyone else had a platonic love for Aerith. The romantic imagery during the burial scene is undeniable.

Then, at the end of the game, Cloud also expresses his desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land — a place of supreme happiness. This is not just because of his guilt, but because of the romance he shared with Aerith. The very reason he has so much guilt is because of the love he had for her. His guilt and his love are not separate…in fact, they overlap and underly each other immensely. All of this leaves gamers with the overall impression that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. This is even more likely if you received the low affection Highwind scene.

Yes, Final Fantasy VII incorporates a love triangle into its storyline. Yes, I’m sure some walked away thinking Cloud and Tifa were the intended couple. But I think the prevailing notion was that Cloud and Aerith were the intended couple of the game, and I see this over and over again on generic, non-bias video game websites.

Sure, you can say most of these people have no knowledge of the compilation material and are therefore uneducated. But the original game is the most important and valid piece of material we have — and it appears that the prevailing opinion from those who have only played the original game is that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple (or that they, at the very least, shared a mutual romance). In addition, the compilation material has just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence (depending on your interpretation) so that point is moot.

It also seems as though SE has confirmed Cloud and Aerith as the intended or primary Final Fantasy VII couple through other games such as Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Cloud and Aerith are almost always shown together in merchandise, in other video games, in artwork, and make numerous cameo appearances together (Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX, anyone?). This feeds into the prevailing idea that they are the primary love interest of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud and Aerith are given preferential treatment because they are, afterall, the hero and heroine of the game. It is only natural that they are viewed by most as the intended couple of the game, and it is only natural that SE portrays them as such.

Furthermore — Cloti’s always say the commercial confirming Cloud x Aerith (“A story of a love that could never be…&#8221 is not valid because it was released by an advertising company (even though SE likely approved the commercial for legal reasons, and for all we know SE helped create the commercial). But I’d say the commercial is yet another example of the prevailing idea that Cloud and Aerith are seen by most people as the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. Whether it was SE, a promotional company, or a mixture of the two, obviously whoever created the commercial came away from the original game thinking Cloud and Aerith’s love was obvious enough to include in a commercial.

But if you believe that it was only a promotional company that created the commercial, some might be so ridiculous and say that they came up with the slogan simply because they saw a man holding a woman, so they assumed they were in love. But I think that actually proves how obvious Clerith is. The burial scene, by itself, seems to convey an obvious sense of romance. The scene is inherently romantic.

Sure, Cloud’s the main character — but I think SE would have created a cut scene that incorporated all of the characters laying Aerith to rest if Cloud and Aerith were only friends. Instead, SE wanted to convey an intimate scene of Cloud laying his romantic interest to rest. And the fact that those who created the commercial came away from the burial scene with the notion that it was, “A story of a love that could never be…” speaks to the obvious romance that SE was portraying between Cloud and Aerith throughout the game and in that scene. Imagery is sometimes more powerful and meaningful than dialogue.

Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. For example, what Cloud says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is not explicitly stated to be romantic. However, SE has intentionally made everything regarding the love triangle slightly ambiguous. But if you were to take a poll, I’m betting the majority of people would feel that the Cosmo Canyon scene was very romantic (especially if you consider what occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, the context of the situation, and the clear romantic undertones). The same can be said of Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard, their two canon dates, the wedding prediction by Cait Sith, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, the burial scene, Cloud wanting to be with Aerith in the Promised Land, etc. etc. All of these examples, when looked at separately, but especially when taken together as a whole, paint an image of an undeniable mutual romance.

Sometimes I think Cloti's take all of these example and look at them separately and say, "oh, that doesn't explicitly show romance!" But I think when you look at them together, and under the context of SE's quote about a hero wavering between two heroines, it shouldn't surprise anyone that all of the examples I listed are viewed with a romantic lense.

Clerith, I think, is obvious to everyone who doesn’t have a Cloti agenda, and it doesn’t surprise me in the least that most generic video game websites consider Cloud and Aerith the primary romantic couple of Final Fantasy VII. The evidence is undeniable.

And in my opinion, the compilation confirms Cloud x Aerith even more. It is obvious Cloud still has a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land because he is not happy living with his “family of friends”; a family that Tifa doesn’t even consider a “real” family — a family that has always included Barret. It also doesn’t surprise me that Cloud was living in Aerith’s Church — a single, separate, solo bedroom might get kind of lonely. It also might get frustrating living with someone who continually treats you like a child instead of as an equal. SE has stated that they have “no idea” if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, and they maintain (through multiple quotes) that the love triangle is up to interpretation.

I’ll be the first to admit that there is evidence that supports Cloti. But do I think it counteracts or outweighs Clerith evidence? Absolutely not. Cloud has been called Aerith’s koibito, and Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart. I maintain that from the moment Cloud and Aerith met they had an undeniable attraction towards one another. This attraction eventually blossomed into a romance; a romance that has carried over into the spiritual world — The Promised Land.

Have fun refuting everything I said and happy shipping.

BlankBeat said:

Just thought I'd stop by since this thread is still technically available to both Cloti and Clerith shippers. And yes, I know everyone will post long rebuttals to what I have to say...but I thought I'd give you guys some food for thought:

1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be default/canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. So if the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does it also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date (even though in other places SE says the Clerith date is canon)?

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what? Is the FTOIL page the final word regarding the Highwind scene but not Cloud's date?

If you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can’t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional? SE does, after-all, point out the optionality of the Highwind scene on three separate occasions.

It seems that SE says one thing one place and then something completely different in another place. They aren't consistent with either the Highwind scene or Cloud's date. So whose to determine what supersedes what?

Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable? And maybe, just maybe, that’s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene has been used it was simply being used as a placeholder.

4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about 'words not being the only way to show someone how you feel' is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the confining nature and specific CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. But the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.

5. Tifa and Cloud share an intimate nonverbal moment in both versions. In fact, the picture used on the FTOIL page is a moment that is in both the low affection and high affection version — Tifa resting her head on Cloud.

In both versions, after this intimate moment takes place, Tifa and Cloud go back aboard the Highwind and a conversation unfolds where they agree that they aren’t afraid to face Sephiroth because they have each other. Since this conversation aboard the Highwind happens in both versions, these feelings can either be platonic or romantic.

Mutual feelings and intimate moments are in both versions, therefore it is never clear which version SE is referring to when they say Cloud and Tifa’s feelings matched below the Highwind.

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It only tells us that whatever feelings Tifa had for Cloud, Cloud found that his feelings for Tifa were the same. You don't think Tifa had romantic interest in Cloud during the game AT ALL?

5. There is just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence. Even if the FTOIL page was valid (which it isn’t), that doesn’t take away all of the Clerith evidence, nor does it take away Cloud’s separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith. In addition, the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC is VERY ambiguous, and there are tons of quotes/evidence that pokes holes in the idea that they are in a romantic relationship. In fact, there is no explicit romantic scene shown between them (contrary to virtually all other canon Final Fantasy couples).

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He didn't have any of that with Aerith either. Difference being, Aerith is dead and Tfa does share his bed in the Case of Tifa.

Here are some other things I've been observing regarding the love triangle:

Whenever I read articles revolving around love that are from generic video game websites, I notice that most of the time Cloud x Aerith are viewed as the intended pairing of Final Fantasy VII.

Here are the three examples I’m referring to:

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm gonna need more then three examples torepresent the majority of the gaming community.

When you play the original game, it is obvious SE is setting up Cloud and Aerith to be the primary romantic couple of the game. The flirtatious and romantic undertones during their interactions are obvious.

Click to expand...

You have played the game right? You know that throughout Cloud's entire time with Aerith, he is using the mask of her ex-boyfriends personality to hide his true self which doesn't surface until she's paid the piper right?

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII.

Click to expand...

Aerith is not THE primary character. Again, she dies early on. And not every Final Fantasy is primarily love story. Terra didn't have a love interest. Neither did Lightning, or Vaan/Basch/Ashe.

This, of course, leads to Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith’s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, and an “undying” feeling for Aerith that becomes “engraved in his heart.” According to SE, Cloud is Aerith’s koibito, and her consciousness lives on inside of him. His heart broke when she died. If you can’t see the romance between these two you are either delusional, or have an unreasonable bias against Clerith

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I see that whole "it's unclear which of the multiple choice sections" thing goes flying out the window when it comes to Aerith. Cloud doesn't have to tell Marlene he hopes Aerith likes her at all, Cait Sith doesn't say he predicts a wedding at all, the other canon date doesn't have to happen at all. We also know aerith's conciousness most definitely does not "live on" in Cloud, we know it resides somewhere else.

especially if you consider that a love triangle is specifically incorporated into Final Fantasy VII.

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A love TRIANGLE, one in which Aerith is dead before she got any further then holding Clouds hand, if that.

And because the Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is not only canon, but also the most common date to achieve, most gamers (who have probably never read anything about the love triangle debate) walk away from the game remembering that Cloud and Aerith share a date. A date, mind you, that occurred after numerous romantic moments. Furthermore, Cloud’s reaction to Aerith’s death was more emotional than everyone else’s reaction for a reason — he had a romantic love for Aerith, whereas everyone else had a platonic love for Aerith. The romantic imagery during the burial scene is undeniable.

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His reaction couldn't have had anything to do with it being his fault for giving Sephiroth the Black Materia, beating the everloving crap out of Aerith, causing he to leave the party and upon reuniting he tried to chop her in half rather then help her.

Then, at the end of the game, Cloud also expresses his desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land — a place of supreme happiness.

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I don't recall the Promised Land being mentioned as place of supreme happiness.

This is not just because of his guilt, but because of the romance he shared with Aerith. The very reason he has so much guilt is because of the love he had for her. His guilt and his love are not separate…in fact, they overlap and underly each other immensely. All of this leaves gamers with the overall impression that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. This is even more likely if you received the low affection Highwind scene.

Yes, Final Fantasy VII incorporates a love triangle into its storyline. Yes, I’m sure some walked away thinking Cloud and Tifa were the intended couple. But I think the prevailing notion was that Cloud and Aerith were the intended couple of the game, and I see this over and over again on generic, non-bias video game websites.

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You don't know IGN very well do you? And the fact is that it was love triangle, that you get to choose a path in. You can choose which one you show affection for. There doesn't have to be an "intended couple" at all and kinda goe against what the game was going for if there was.

Sure, you can say most of these people have no knowledge of the compilation material and are therefore uneducated. But the original game is the most important and valid piece of material we have — and it appears that the prevailing opinion from those who have only played the original game is that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple (or that they, at the very least, shared a mutual romance). In addition, the compilation material has just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence (depending on your interpretation) so that point is moot.

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Okay, I really think you need to show more then three websites if you're going to mention that nearly gamers agree with you over and over and over again.

It also seems as though SE has confirmed Cloud and Aerith as the intended or primary Final Fantasy VII couple through other games such as Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Cloud and Aerith are almost always shown together in merchandise, in other video games, in artwork, and make numerous cameo appearances together (Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX, anyone?). This feeds into the prevailing idea that they are the primary love interest of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud and Aerith are given preferential treatment because they are, afterall, the hero and heroine of the game. It is only natural that they are viewed by most as the intended couple of the game, and it is only natural that SE portrays them as such.

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I think KHII and Duodecim pushes much more strongly for CloudxTifa then any of those games did for CloudxAerith. Mostly because with KHII and Duodeci, it wasn't just a cameo or obscure reference.

Furthermore — Cloti’s always say the commercial confirming Cloud x Aerith (“A story of a love that could never be…”) is not valid because it was released by an advertising company (even though SE likely approved the commercial, and for all we know SE helped create the commercial). But I’d say the commercial is yet another example of the prevailing idea that Cloud and Aerith are seen by most people as the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. Whether it was SE, a promotional company, or a mixture of the two, obviously whoever created the commercial came away from the original game thinking Cloud and Aerith’s love was obvious enough to include in a commercial.

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You do you read your own quotes, it says right there that Cloud x Aerith could never be. And given that she's dead and he was just impersonating her ex-boyfriend at the time, I'd say it's an accurate assessment.

Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. For example, what Cloud says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is not explicitly stated to be romantic. However, SE has intentionally made everything regarding the love triangle slightly ambiguous.

Click to expand...

Gee, I wonder whhy they did that if they were unambigiously pushing for Cloud and Aerith the whole time as you insist on. That's odd.

But if you were to take a poll, I’m betting the majority of people would feel that the Cosmo Canyon scene was very romantic (especially if you consider what occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, the context of the situation, and the clear romantic undertones). The same can be said of Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard, their two canon dates, the wedding prediction by Cait Sith, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, the burial scene, Cloud wanting to be with Aerith in the Promised Land, etc. etc. All of these examples, when looked at separately, but especially when taken together as a whole, paint an image of an undeniable mutual romance.

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half of what you say is optional in the game, Cloud says he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, which is quite different from being with her. Cloud's bodyguard when she is being threatened by Turks doesn't say romance to me and Cait Sith doesn't mention a wedding.

Sometimes I think Cloti's take all of these example and look at them separately and say, "oh, that doesn't explicitly show romance!" But I think when you look at them together, and under the context of SE's quote about a hero wavering between two heroines, it shouldn't surprise anyone that all of the examples I listed are viewed with a romantic lense.

Clerith, I think, is obvious to everyone who doesn’t have a Cloti agenda, and it doesn’t surprise me in the least that most generic video game websites consider Cloud and Aerith the primary romantic couple of Final Fantasy VII. The evidence is undeniable.

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You just said that it is about a hero wavering between TWO heroines. Given that earlier in your post you were insisting that everything between Cloud and Tifa could be entirely platonic, I assume you meant Cloud x Yuffie is canon too?

And in my opinion, the compilation confirms Cloud x Aerith even more. It is obvious Cloud still has a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land because he is not happy living with his “family of friends”; a family that Tifa doesn’t even consider a “real” family — a family that has always included Barret. It also doesn’t surprise me that Cloud was living in Aerith’s Church — a single, separate, solo bedroom might get kind of lonely. It also might get frustrating living with someone who continually treats you like a child instead of as an equal. SE has stated that they have “no idea” if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, and they maintain (through multiple quotes) that the love triangle is up to interpretation.

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You know that Cloud spent most of those two years sharing a room with Tifa and only when he was dying and failed to find a cure, moved into Aeriths church right? Saying it he is just unhappy licing with his friends when he is going to die soon ,is in constant pain and is liable to turn into oily corpse in front of a 6-year old girl at any given time and is trying to hide all this from his friends is incredibly baised and dismissive of the conflict in AC.

I’ll be the first to admit that there is evidence that supports Cloti. But do I think it counteracts or outweighs Clerith evidence? Absolutely not. Cloud has been called Aerith’s koibito, and Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart. I maintain that from the moment Cloud and Aerith met they had an undeniable attraction towards one another. This attraction eventually blossomed into a romance; a romance that has carried over into the spiritual world — The Promised Land.

Have fun refuting everything I said and happy shipping.

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You JUST said that SE, people that make the game feel the love traingle was up to interpretation. That works both ways you know. Again, difference being that Aerith is superdead and Cloud spent the rest of days with Tifa to the best of our knowledge.

BlankBeat said:

4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about 'words not being the only way to show someone how you feel' is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the confining nature and specific CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. But the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.

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I'm too lazy to write a full rebuttal, but the "Words aren't the only way was referenced not only once:

1.Tifa's memorial card (same as Aerith date)
2.Tifa's memorial words FFVII 25th AU

“Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking…”
Prairie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words

​

Caption:

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire towards one another

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3.FTOIL page
4.Dissidia limit break
5.Dissidia secret words

Also, the phrase used to the "feelings that matched/exchanged" were used between all FF canon romances. Check the japanese text for proof. I got the screenshots of the pages here: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40338671251/cloud-and-tifas-feelings-for-each-other

FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud’s profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

“Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

“When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. “

(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”

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Celes and Locke:

「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の一員　—　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
FF 20th AU “For the One I Love”

​

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Squall and Rinoa:

ティンバー独立を目指すレジスタンス「森のフクロウ」に身を置く、 人なつっこくて快活な少女。 SeeDとして派遣されたスコールたちと行動をともにし、 自身の当初の目的ではない魔女討伐作戦にも協力。 戦いのさなかイデアから魔女の力を継承してしまい、 自分が世界中の人々の敵となることに恐れを抱くが、 想いを通わせたスコールに守られつつ アルティミシアに立ち向かう。



“A friendly and cheerful young woman, part of the resistance group called the Forest Owls, whose goal is the liberation of Timber. She joins in Squall and co.’s activities when they are dispatched by SeeD, and also participates in the witch assassination plot, which she wasn’t supposed to be involved with. During a battle, she inherits the powers of a witch from Edea; she begins to fear that she will become an enemy of the whole world, but Squall communicates his feelings to her and battles Ultimecia to protect her.”
FF 25th AU Vol. 2

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Steiner and Beatrix

恋のはじまりはカンちがいから
ベアトリクスにとってスタイナーはただ一度敗北を喫した相手であり、双方ともに対抗意識を燃やしていた。だが、エーコのラブレターを互いが互いに宛てたものだとカンちがい して以来、ふたりは意識し合うようになり、エンディングで想いを通わせる。

A Love That Started With A Misunderstanding
To Beatrix, Steiner is the one opponent who has defeated her, and they both harbour a rivalry towards each other. But after mistaking Eiko’s love letter for one sent to them from each other, they start to take notice of one another and in the ending make their feelings known. FF 25th AU Vol. 2

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Another variation of the Cloti quote matches Zell and Pig-Tailed girl from FFVIII

三つ編みの図書委員とのロマンス
教師陣からは問題児あつかいされているものの、生徒やバラムの人々からの人気はそこそこ。なかでも三つ編みの図書委員には好意を持たれており、やがて彼女から想いを打ち明 けられる。

Romance with the Library Committee Member With Braids
Despite being seen as a trouble maker by the faculty, he is fairly popular with the students and people of Balamb. In particular the member of the library committee with the braided hair likes him, and eventually she reveals her feelings to him.
FF 25th AU Vol. 2

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And Tidus ans Yuna's moment in the Macalania spring

FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.

Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想&#12356を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。

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(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想&#12356を打ち明け、確かめ合う。

“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想&#12356を打ち明け合う。

“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想&#12356を打ち明け、そして……。

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”


​

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Blankbeat said:

Whenever I read articles revolving around love that are from generic video game websites, I notice that most of the time Cloud x Aerith are viewed as the intended pairing of Final Fantasy VII.

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Wait... aren't the staff of video game websites fans, same as you and me? What makes their opinion more important than anyone else's?

Blankbeat said:

But I think the prevailing notion was that Cloud and Aerith were the intended couple of the game, and I see this over and over again on generic, non-bias video game websites.

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If the love triangle of VII is up to interpretation as you claim, choosing one over the other would make them biased, wouldn't it?

Takahiro Sakurai, the guy hired to bring life to Cloud through his voice, describes himself as a Tifa man and says he'd argue with his Aerith-loving friend about who was better.

But I'm guessing you'd say this is just his opinion, right? You can only be unbiased if you prefer Cloud with Aerith.

I won't respond to all that long post, but I'll point out some that really needs to be mentioned:

1) "Then, at the end of the game, Cloud also expresses his desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land — a place of supreme happiness. "

You do realize Tifa was also going to meet Aerith at the Promised Land right? Unless you feel Aerith was Tifa's promised land too, that removes any such nonsense of her being Cloud's promised land. The 10th anniversary Ultimania, on the other hand, says Cloud's promised land was his family.

2) "It also seems as though SE has confirmed Cloud and Aerith as the intended or primary Final Fantasy VII couple through other games such as Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia."

Except KH II showed Tifa to be Cloud's light, while Aerith was a bystander, a cheerleader hoping he finds his light. Dissidia 012 showed that it was actually Tifa that made Cloud mope around in Dissidia. The AUs are very heavy on Cloud x Tifa.

3) "Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. For example, what Cloud says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is not explicitly stated to be romantic. However, SE has intentionally made everything regarding the love triangle slightly ambiguous."

Yes, while Cloud was in his messed up SOLDIER/Zack persona, his heart wavered between the two women. Once Aerith kicked the bucket, it became all about Tifa.

4) "And in my opinion, the compilation confirms Cloud x Aerith even more. It is obvious Cloud still has a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land because he is not happy living with his “family of friends”; a family that Tifa doesn’t even consider a “real” family"

Straight from the 10th anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nope, Cloud was happy all right. He was so happy that he was scared of losing it, just like he lost two dear people right in front of him. And this is fact, not opinion.

5) "Cloud has been called Aerith’s koibito, and Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart."

And this is the part that really needs to be addressed. Cloud was Aerith's beloved/sweetheart/etc. However, it never says anything about Aerith being his koibito. Tifa, on the other hand, is described as just that, a koibito. If you think she's Johnny's koibito or some crap like that, go ahead. I'll go ahead with the guy actually living and being in a relationship with her, that guy of course being Cloud.

The "engraved in Cloud's heart" thing is a Japanese idiom to never forget and is often used for non-romantic connotations: For ex: That scenery was engraved in my heart. The English translation got it right. And by the way, Tifa's promise was engraved in Cloud's chest/mind/etc.

Now, FFVII was certainly setting up Cloud and Aerith together. However, there was a method of madness to that. It built them up only to bring them crashing down, then you realize it wasn't even the real Cloud, he was just a mishmash of memories, with some of those memories being Aerith's ex. The REAL Cloud has always loved Tifa, and the lifestream sequence and HAHW scene shows his feelings have not changed at all.

Now, as far as the original FFVII goes, I agree it was up to choice. However, the compilations have clearly steered towards Cloud and Tifa. Them being together was a "sure" thing; in CoT the first thing he said was Tifa was going to be with him, it was going to be "different", not about "searching" for Aerith. Cloud's AC profile already says what was going on with him, and it wasn't a romantic yearning for Aerith. In ACC, they removed Aerith in the ending credits completely, likely because Cleriths had this idea Cloud was meeting Aerith at the flower field.

As for those "un-biased" sites, those sites are primarily run by fans. The only place to get legitimate information is from SE themselves. And they have mentioned Cloud and Tifa multiple times. Cloud and Tifa was intended even before all this Ultimania stuff, when there was supposed to be a much more blatant scene of them in the chocobo stable. The scene was toned down, but the "risque" implication never changes. SE made Cloud and Tifa official, that's just how the dice rolled. And I can certainly tell you my un-biased married friends (and the ones with fiances) who don't care much for videogame romance thought Cloud and Tifa were a couple at the end of the game.

Only replying to one thing. I have no interest engaging someone who insists on parroting arguments she has already seen refuted.

Blankbeat said:

But if you were to take a poll, I’m betting the majority of people would feel that the Cosmo Canyon scene was very romantic (especially if you consider what occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, the context of the situation, and the clear romantic undertones).

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The "But I'm ... we're here for you, right?" line is optional dialogue. You can easily play through the game without seeing it.

Hawkeye said:

The "But I'm ... we're here for you, right?" line is optional dialogue. You can easily play through the game without seeing it.

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Actually it is obligatory dialogue. The game requires that you speak to Barret, Tifa and Aerith, or else you won't be able to trigger the next set of events by talking to Red XIII. Before talking to B, T and A, all you get is ellipses from Red XIII. (It is optional to speak to Yuffie and Cait Sith)

However, I do not believe that the dialogue being obligatory increases its value in the LTD discussion. The emotion behind Cloud's words are up to the player to interpret, unless an Ultimania specifically states what his emotions canonically are meant to be.

Thanks for that correction. I knew I had watched walkthroughs where players had skipped some characters and triggered the next scene -- always thought Aerith was one of them.

BlankBeat said:

Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else.

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The projection is strong with this one.

Especially considering how often I see complaints about teh evil clotis infecting other sites and the only safe place you have is that forum.

But that is just one more example of shipper doublethink.

Blankbeat said:

A bunch of the same old thing

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Not really much to say there, unless I care to say the same thing I always say when I see this same bunch of old arguments

So, Blankbeat, firstly, I won't be addressing the whole of your post. Danseru and Minato did that well enough that it'd be redundant.

Secondly, you DO realize you're engaging in doublethink, yes? It cannot both be "up to interpretation/ no clear answer" and "Clearly Clerith" at the same time.

Thirdly, most of your arguments really are odd and question begging.
What I really want to discuss, however, is this silly idea that it's the 'FTOIL' page that canonizes the high highwind. It's not that page that does it. What THAT page does and says is simply that Cloud and Tifa match their romantic feelings for each other.
That's it. It does not mention a version. It merely mentions that event as what happens. Now, on its own, yes, this can be used to logically determine that the HAHW is canon. But we don't need it too.
For example, elsewhere in the same Ultimania, in 7's Most notable/ important scenes page, the full script of the High Highwind scene is displayed, juxtaposted on the same page as Aerith's death. The creators WANT US to focus on this page.
Further, we have eight- or more, I think I may be forgetting a few- mentions of Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings for each other.
In fact, in Tifa's Crisis Core profile, this act of confirmation is mentioned literally in the same sentence as the two of them deciding to live together.

"She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

Them realizing their feelings for each other, that's an inescapable fact of the narrative already.
FTOIL just explicitly tells us they were romantic feelings, rather than the implicit understanding the other language used connotes.

Further add to this that the two have a future together, as explicitly described in Reunion files, formed a family together as per the U10, and Tifa is explicitly a part of Cloud's family whereas no one else in AVALANCHE is, including Aerith, and the Clerith cards crumble pretty quickly.

Oh, and speaking of Aerith, she definitely cannot live inside Cloud. At the end of Advent Children, they are described as 'returning to the cycle of souls around the planet, where they belong'
Return- meaning that's where she came from, and belong- meaning that's where she's gonna stay.
Plus, COLW is entirely in the lifestream, and Aerith can't talk to Cloud in it. Sorry, 'Woman' can't talk to Cloud in it.

Oh, and even IF we want to be absurdly literal about the living on inside bullshit, Aerith lives on inside ALL of her friends.
"Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet."
FRIENDS. As in more than one.

So, yeah, BB. Please, try harder next time, and don't just parrot BS.
Your projection and desperation are evident and pathetic.

Since our friends like to just C/P their arguments I feel I should C/P theirs. Specifically from today on the "LTD over" article.

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...riangle-debate-over/comment-page-12/#comments

This is from DansantCaparet. Who it should be noted recently posted the "Clerith Bible" on Tumblr.

But let's have Danstant take it away.

...........

The point of the FTOIL page was to show romantic couples, regardless of optionality. Tifa and Cloud are a romantic couple, but only if you play the game a certain way. And since the goal of the FTOIL page was to show romantic couples, it only makes sense that the FTOIL page would include the high affection Highwind scene. This does not mean, however, that the page canonizes that version — it simply means that SE chose to put the high affection version of the Highwind scene on a page discussing romantic couples BECAUSE Cloud and Tifa are only a romantic couple if that version takes place.

Look at it this way — why would SE include the LAHW scene on a page discussing romantic couples? That would not be appropriate given the context and goal of the FTOIL page. The only version that would be appropriate to include on the FTOIL page would be the high affection version. In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to include the HAHW scene on a romantic couples page because Tifa and Cloud are a romantic couple in that version occurs. But this does not mean the FTOIL page has canonized that version, it just means that Cloud and Tifa have the potential to be a romantic couple if you play the game a certain way. I think TLS is misrepresenting the point of the FTOIL page and over-exaggerating its importance. Furthermore, SE notes on a separate page that the Highwind scene is optional. Who is to say that page is more or less canon than the FTOIL page?

The bottom line is: The FTOIL page is discussing romantic couples. And even though Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple, SE decided to include them on the FTOIL page anyway. That seems perfectly reasonable, especially because they specified on a different page that the Highwind scene is variable. But given the context of the page, it is only appropriate that they included the HAHW scene. That doesn’t mean that a page talking about romantic couples canonizes that version, it simply means that that version was the only appropriate version to put on a page discussing romantic couples.

Context is everything.

The Cloud x Aerith date is also pictured on the FTOIL page, and has been stated to be canon in other places. On the FTOIL page, however, the Cloud x Aerith date is not specified as being canon. So does the FTOIL page trump the other times the Cloud x Aerith date has been discussed? If the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does that mean the caption under the Clerith date talking about optionality is canon, therefore superseding the other times the Clerith date has been discussed as canon? How do we determine which materials are more valid than other materials? What supersedes what? What if SE says one thing somewhere, but then says something completely different somewhere else? I think this all points to a bigger picture which is that the love triangle is and will forever remain up to interpretation.

Obviously SE has stated that the Highwind scene is variable multiple times. But they’ve also stated that the date is variable multiple times. But then they’ve also (at times) given special treatment to the Clerith date and the HAHW scene. So based on this, I’d say we have to look at the context. The FTOIL page is under the context of romantic couples, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include — but that does nothing to canonize that version into the storyline.

Furthermore, all the other times the Highwind scene is addressed, SE has never specifically says what type of feelings are expressed.

The only time SE says they expressed their feelings “without words” is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the only time you could argue that SE specifically referred to the HAHW scene is on a page discussing romantic couples, which given the context of the page, makes sense. But it doesn’t mean anything with regards to canonizing the HAHW scene into the canon story of Final Fantasy VII. And yes, the HAHW scene has been pictured from time to time, but that could just be a placeholder — which is the same argument many Cloti’s use against the Clerith date being pictured on the FTOIL page.

The screen-shot of Cloud and Tifa shown on the FTOIL page happens in BOTH versions. Tifa asks Cloud for a silent ‘moment’ and rests her head on Cloud in both versions. So, in both versions Tifa and Cloud confirm something “without words”. In the LA version, those feelings are of companionship.

It is obvious Cloud and Tifa share a special bond, and before heading to the face Sephiroth, it only makes sense that these two would share an intimate moment together. And given that two versions exist, one has to be platonic and one has to be romantic. But the bottom line is: in both the platonic and romantic version an intimate moment is shared between Cloud and Tifa without words. This means that all the times SE says they confirmed their feelings to match, it doesn’t necessarily have to be romantic because the intimate moment where Tifa rests her head on Cloud happens in both versions (this is the exact moment pictured on the FTOIL page). Also, in both versions they state when they go back aboard the Highwind that they are both not afraid of what is going to happen next because they have each other. This means mutual feelings are expressed in both versions, and can either be platonic or romantic.
Whenever I read articles revolving around love that are from generic video game websites, I notice that most of the time Cloud x Aerith are viewed as the intended pairing of Final Fantasy VII.

Here are the three examples I’m referring to:
1. The Greatest Video Game Couples ~IGN
Cloud and Aerith (Final Fantasy VII)
“Sometimes video games genuinely shock you – and Aerith’s untimely death was one of those moments. The game seemed to be setting her up to be hero Cloud Strife’s main love interest, and then suddenly (before even the end of the first disc, for heaven’s sake) she’s dead, just like that.”
2. 5 Worst Final Fantasy Couples ~GamesRadar
“Final Fantasy VII is fondly remembered by its fans as a love story – specifically, a love story between spiky-haired mercenary Cloud and dowdy flower girl Aerith. But as many of you probably already know, it doesn’t have to be that way.”
The pivotal moment in the game’s romance subplot comes while the party is staying overnight at the Golden Saucer amusement park. Most players will see the following sequence unfold as a date between Cloud and Aerith, but if you play your cards a little differently, Cloud will ignore Aerith in favor of busty martial artist Tifa. And if you play your cards wrong, he’ll end up going on a date with his hulking, gun-armed best friend, Barret.”
3. Dating according to videogames ~Gamesradar
“…This shows her that he’s sensitive and appreciates her useless hobby, which sets her at ease and plants the first seeds of their legendary romance…”

Obviously some websites refer to Cloud x Tifa — but I think this happens less frequently, which speaks to a much larger point. If you only played the original game, the romance between Cloud and Aerith is obvious to the majority of gamers. Although the compilation material might lead some to a different conclusion —or simply reaffirm Cloud x Aerith— it seems that for the majority of those who have only played the original game, they tend to believe Cloud x Aerith are the primary Final Fantasy VII couple. And this isn’t by accident.

When you play the original game, it is obvious SE is setting up Cloud and Aerith to be the primary romantic couple of the game. The flirtatious and romantic undertones during their interactions are obvious.

The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII. This, of course, leads to Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith’s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, and an “undying” feeling for Aerith that becomes “engraved in his heart.” According to SE, Cloud is Aerith’s koibito. If you can’t see the romance between these two you are either delusional, or have an unreasonable bias against Clerith, especially if you consider that a love triangle is specifically incorporated into Final Fantasy VII.

And because the Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is not only canon, but also the most common date to achieve, most gamers (who have probably never read anything about the love triangle debate) walk away from the game remembering that Cloud and Aerith share a date. A date, mind you, that occurred after numerous romantic moments. Furthermore, Cloud’s reaction to Aerith’s death was more emotional than everyone else’s reaction for a reason — he had a romantic love for Aerith, whereas everyone else had a platonic love for Aerith. The romantic imagery during the burial scene is undeniable.

Then, at the end of the game, Cloud also expresses his desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land — a place of supreme happiness. This is not just because of his guilt, but because of the romance he shared with Aerith. The very reason he has so much guilt is because of the love he had for her. His guilt and his love are not separate…in fact, they overlap and underly each other immensely. All of this leaves gamers with the overall impression that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. This is even more likely if you received the low affection Highwind scene.

Yes, Final Fantasy VII incorporates a love triangle into its storyline. Yes, I’m sure some walked away thinking Cloud and Tifa were the intended couple. But I think the prevailing notion was that Cloud and Aerith were the intended couple of the game, and I see this over and over again on generic, non-bias video game websites.

Sure, you can say most of these people have no knowledge of the compilation material and are therefore uneducated. But the original game is the most important and valid piece of material we have — and it appears that the prevailing opinion from those who have only played the original game is that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple (or that they, at the very least, shared a mutual romance). In addition, the compilation material has just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence (depending on your interpretation) so that point is moot.

It also seems as though SE has confirmed Cloud and Aerith as the intended or primary Final Fantasy VII couple through other games such as Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Cloud and Aerith are almost always shown together in merchandise, in other video games, in artwork, and make numerous cameo appearances together (Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX, anyone?). This feeds into the prevailing idea that they are the primary love interest of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud and Aerith are given preferential treatment because they are, afterall, the hero and heroine of the game. It is only natural that they are viewed by most as the intended couple of the game, and it is only natural that SE portrays them as such.

Furthermore — Cloti’s always say the commercial confirming Cloud x Aerith (“A story of a love that could never be…&#8221 is not valid because it was released by an advertising company (even though SE likely approved the commercial, and for all we know SE helped create the commercial). But I’d say the commercial is yet another example of the prevailing idea that Cloud and Aerith are seen by most people as the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. Whether it was SE, a promotional company, or a mixture of the two, obviously whoever created the commercial came away from the original game thinking Cloud and Aerith’s love was obvious enough to include in a commercial.

But if you believe that it was only a promotional company that created the commercial, some might be so ridiculous and say that they came up with the slogan simply because they saw a man holding a woman, so they assumed they were in love. But I think that actually proves how obvious Clerith is. The burial scene, by itself, seems to convey an obvious sense of romance. The scene is inherently romantic.

Sure, Cloud’s the main character — but I think SE would have created a cut scene that incorporated all of the characters laying Aerith to rest if Cloud and Aerith were only friends. Instead, SE wanted to convey an intimate scene of Cloud laying his romantic interest to rest. And the fact that those who created the commercial came away from the burial scene with the notion that it was, “A story of a love that could never be…” speaks to the obvious romance that SE was portraying between Cloud and Aerith throughout the game and in that scene. Imagery is sometimes more powerful and meaningful than dialogue.

Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. For example, what Cloud says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is not explicitly stated to be romantic. However, SE has intentionally made everything regarding the love triangle slightly ambiguous. But if you were to take a poll, I’m betting the majority of people would feel that the Cosmo Canyon scene was very romantic (especially if you consider what occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, the context of the situation, and the clear romantic undertones). The same can be said of Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard, their two canon dates, the wedding prediction by Cait Sith, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, the burial scene, Cloud wanting to be with Aerith in the Promised Land, etc. etc. All of these examples, when looked at separately, but especially when taken together as a whole, paint an image of an undeniable mutual romance.

Clerith is obvious to everyone who doesn’t have a Cloti agenda, and it doesn’t surprise me in the least that most generic video game websites consider Cloud and Aerith the primary romantic couple of Final Fantasy VII. The evidence is undeniable.

And in my opinion, the compilation confirms Cloud x Aerith even more. It is obvious Cloud still has a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land because he is not happy living with his “family of friends”; a family that Tifa doesn’t even consider a “real” family — a family that has always included Barret. It also doesn’t surprise me that Cloud was living in Aerith’s Church — a single, separate, solo bedroom might get kind of lonely. It also might get frustrating living with someone who continually treats you like a child instead of as an equal. SE has stated that they have “no idea” if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, and they maintain that the love triangle is up to interpretation.

I’ll be the first to admit that there is evidence that supports Cloti. But do I think it counteracts or outweighs Clerith evidence? Absolutely not. Cloud has been called Aerith’s koibito, and Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart. I maintain that from the moment Cloud and Aerith met they had an undeniable attraction towards one another. This attraction eventually blossomed into a romance; a romance that has carried over into the spiritual world — The Promised Land.

1. The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon within the compilation:

A: “#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

B: “In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.”~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

C: “Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

2. Aerith Gainsborough: “A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life” ~DoC game manual, Square Enix

3. “Cloud was her friend, her koibito (lover in Japanese) – a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

4. “The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land……When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself. And when he turns around—- “she” is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong. Back to the current of life flowing around the planet” ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Square Enix
——Cloud awakes in Aerith’s Church where he shares a spiritual connection with her. Where Cloud awakes is his Promised Land — his supreme happiness. This means Cloud’s supreme place of happiness is with Aerith in her Church. Tifa is lumped in as one of Cloud’s friends in this passage.

5. “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” ~Cloud Strife

6. “I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That’s all that matters.”~Aerith Gainsborough

7. “A story of a love that could never be…” ~Official Square Enix commercial referring to Cloud x Aerith

8. “At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

9. Aerith brought Denzel to Cloud (very important to know when talking about this “family” that has been created):

“Denzel had collapsed in front of Aerith’s church. That’s why I thought Aerith lead him to me.” ~Cloud, Case of Tifa, Square Enix

10. Cloud to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon: “But, I’m -I mean- we’re here for you, right?” ~Cloud Strife

11. “Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.”~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

12. “When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack’s similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, “I’m searching for you” and “I want to meet you” all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he’s not aware of it himself.” ~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix

13. “First off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture… I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII

14. The hand reach scene at the end of Final Fantasy VII.

15. “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix

“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!” “Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!” — “Poor Tifa!” ~Cait Sith

16. Cloud is searching to be with Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of Advent Children. Cloud also keeps Aerith’s flowers on his desk in his single bedroom.

17. “Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…” ~Nomura, Square Enix

18. “But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered.” ~Nomura, Square Enix

19. Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date.

20. Cloud is living in Aerith’s Church at the beginning of Advent Children because that is where he finds peace after his diagnosis —(living in a room by himself in a “family of friends” due to extenuating circumstances doesn’t seem to cut it). Remember, Aerith’s Church is Cloud’s Promised Land — the place where he finds supreme happiness and shares a spiritual connection with Aerith.

21. (Note: this now the canon version of this scene)

Marlene: Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!

Cloud: Let’s hope so.

Marlene: I won’t tell Tifa.

22. In Advent Children, when Sephiroth asks Cloud what he cherishes the most, the first image that comes to his mind is Aerith.

23. “As for Cloud… He sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.” ~Nomura, Square Enix

24. “You should have… An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you.” ~Mrs. Strife (Cloud’s Mom)

25. Cloud and Aerith share a date at Green Park in the Sector 6 Slum. Cloud and Aerith share two canon dates in Final Fantasy VII.

“Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in “FFVII” as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.” ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

26. Cloud tells Aerith her eyes are “impressive”

27. Cloud only laughed and cried for one character — Aerith

28. Cloud has a “mysterious” feeling for Aerith

“After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…” ~Final Fantasy VII Story Playback, Page 111

29. Cloud x Aerith have official SE artwork together, which is similar to other canon Final Fantasy couples

30. Cloud felt at “peace” with Aerith in her Church

31. “It was the sound of Cloud’s heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith’s death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth…There was nothing she could do about Cloud’s suffering and the pain ached in her heart.” ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix

Cloud’s heart broke when Aerith died.

And now for part 2 from DansantCaparet.

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...riangle-debate-over/comment-page-12/#comments


............


Just to refine a few of my points:

1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. If the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does that also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date?

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what?

If you argue that evidence besides the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, then can’t you also argue that other evidence besides the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional?

My opinion is that you have to look at the context under which SE is providing the information to make this judgement call. And given the context of the FTOIL page, it does not make the HAHW scene canon within FFVII’s storyline.

It seems that often times SE says one thing one place and them something completely different in another place. Maybe that’s because the love triangle is up to interpretation and SE does not want to make either pairing canon.

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene is used, it was also being used as a placeholder.

4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about words not being the only way to show someone how you feel is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. So the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.

5. Tifa and Cloud share an intimate nonverbal moment in both versions. In fact, the picture used on the FTOIL page is a moment that is in both the low affection and high affection version — Tifa resting her head on Cloud.

In both versions, after this intimate moment takes place, Tifa and Cloud go back aboard the Highwind and a conversation unfolds where they agree that they aren’t afraid to face Sephiroth because they have each other. Since this conversation aboard the Highwind happens in both versions, these feelings can either be platonic or romantic.

Mutual feelings and intimate moments are in both versions, therefore it is never clear which version SE is referring to when they say Cloud and Tifa’s feelings matched below the Highwind.

5. There is just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence. Even if the FTOIL page was valid (which it isn’t), that doesn’t take away all of the Clerith evidence, nor does it take away Cloud’s separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith. In addition, the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC is VERY ambiguous, and there are tons of quotes/evidence that pokes holes in the idea that they are in a romantic relationship.

The LTD will forever be up to interpretation.

But ryu, that contains too much logic and sense.

We can't be having with this "logic and sense" now. I've seen where that sort of thing leads

I wish the Cleriths that insist on this "it's all interpretation" stuff would stop pretending it's anything other than a fallback/safety blanket. Do you really think that switching out the word canon for intended changes anything? If SE intends for us to believe that Cloud and Aerith are the couple for VII, then that means it is canon as far as they are concerned.

I think I've just found that IGN article:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/02/14/the-greatest-video-game-couples

Oddly enough, it has a female Commander Shepard and Garrus from Mass Effect 2 on that list, which is entirely optional, considering that Shepard can either be male or female. They also get the kiss between Mario and Peach wrong; she kisses him on the nose, not on the cheek in that particular scene.

There was also quite a bit of upset in the comments section about Zidane and Garnet not making that exclusive little list, which I happen to second. Why, oh why, is FFIX so often overlooked?! There are optional pairings listed in that article and not Zidane and Garnet. Seriously? >.<; Anyway, as for IGN itself, here&#8217;s another article mentioning something interesting about Tifa being Cloud&#8217;s girlfriend. Note it, at the end of page 7:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/05/01/ign-presents-the-history-of-final-fantasy-vii?page=7

And here&#8217;s something completely contradictory from Yahoo!Games:

http://games.yahoo.com/photos/gamin...ing-s-greatest-romances-photo-1328719851.html

In all honesty, I&#8217;d seriously take these gaming sites with a grain of salt. I mean, I&#8217;ve been waiting for the final installment to the Legacy of Kain series for almost ten years now, and any time one of these sites mention an upcoming sequel or possible reboot, it usually turns out to be nothing more than a rumor. I've almost lost all faith in Kain's story ever having a definitive conclusion.

LOL -- I have two usernames I tend to go by DansantCaparet and BlankBeat. What a big discovery you've uncovered...!!!

PS: I'm constructing a response to everyone as we speak.

BlankBeat said:

LOL -- I have two usernames I tend to go by DansantCaparet and BlankBeat. What a big discovery you've uncovered...!!!

Click to expand...

It's gonna take me a while to get over this shock to the system.

But one must ask. Why not just C/P post that here?

I'd just like to say real quickly -- much as been made of the fact that the majority of Clerith evidence I pointed out happens when Cloud is not his "true" self.

I find this a convenient way for Cloti's to dismiss the majority of Clerith evidence. Why do I feel this way? Because if all of those moments between Cloud and Aerith are null-in-void simply because Cloud was not his "true" self, why does he continue to hold Aerith in such high regard after he discovers his "true" self?

If Cloud can continue to feel GUILT for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self, he can also continue to feel LOVE for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self.

And even if you only view Aerith and Cloud as friends, their friendship was built while Cloud wasn't his "true" self. So my point is, after Cloud discovers his "true" self, he still has strong feelings for Aerith because of all the moments they shared during his identity crisis. And yes, these feelings can either be romantic or platonic depending on your interpretation, but these feelings exist nonetheless and stem from the moments I've listed.

It's not like Cloud was blacked out drunk the entire time and doesn't remember those moments I listed. Cloud was simply confused and channeling Zack's memories, but that doesn't mean the intimate moments he shared with Aerith were deleted from his memory when he finally discovered the truth about himself. Again, if Cloud can feel guilt for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self, he can also continue to feel "love" for things that occurred while he was not his "real" self.

Given that a love triangle is stated as occurring in the game, the fact that SE says the hero wavers between two heroines, the fact that SE says Cloud is Aerith's koibito, and the fact that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, I do not think it is wrong to view all of the examples I listed under a romantic lense -- Cloud agreeing to be Aerith&#8217;s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith&#8217;s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, TWO canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, the burial scene, the hand reach scene, and Cloud living in Aerith's Church (his guilt and love overlap and underly each other immensely). All of these moments are evidence of a mutual romance, especially under the context of which we are working with (love triangle, hero wavering between two heroines, Cloud being Aerith's koibito, and Aerith being engraved in Cloud's heart).

Some have also said I'm denying Cloti evidence. That is simply not true. There is lots of Cloti evidence, and I think the HAHW scene makes a strong case. But the Cloti evidence is not as strong as some are making it out to be, and in the process, they are also downplaying the Clerith evidence I've listed. Honestly, the only solid piece of Cloti evidence I see is the Highwind scene. And this is a variable scene. And even if the HAHW scene is canon, it does not take away Cloud's separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith.

Also -- some have said Cloud is "happy" living with Tifa and the children. Well, that may or may not be true depending on what other material you look at. But just because he is happy, doesn't necessarily mean they are romantic partners raising children. Marlene is Barret's daughter and Denzel was brought to Cloud by Aerith. Tifa doesn't consider them a 'real' family, and it is proven, with screenshots, that Cloud has a place to sleep in his separate room. It makes no difference if he has other furniture in there or not. It makes no difference if it is a bed or a cot. Cloud has a place to sleep, period. And Tifa, at one point, tells Cloud to drink in "his room". There is also no picture of Cloud sleeping with Tifa, so it is only reasonable to assume he sleeps on the bed/cot/place-to-sleep that is shown in his private room.

The relationship between Cloud and Tifa in AC is completely and utterly ambiguous, and to many people, shows two horrifically incompatible people. There is ZERO romantic scenes shown between them.

It is also ridiculous to claim Barret is not apart of this family. Yes, I know SE says this is a family of "four". But that's only because Barret is off doing missions. They are only a family of "four" while Barret is away doing missions. It is undeniable that Marlene is considered Barret's daughter, so if Marlene is Barret's daughter, he is therefore apart of this family. In fact, when Barret hears they are under attack, he rushes back to defend his "family". Barret is also the first person to call them a family in COT, and was always a apart of this "family of friends" dating back to well before the beginning of Final Fantasy VII. To deny his rightful place in this family is only done to try and build up Cloti as being something it's not.

I've also seen very few answers to these points:
1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That&#8217;s more like a &#8220;no sh*t Sherlock&#8221; moment.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be default/canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. So if the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does it also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud&#8217;s date (even though in other places SE says the Clerith date is canon)?

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what? Is the FTOIL page the final word regarding the Highwind scene but not Cloud's date?

If you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can&#8217;t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional? SE does, after-all, point out the optionality of the Highwind scene on three separate occasions.

It seems that SE says one thing one place and then something completely different in another place. They aren't consistent with either the Highwind scene or Cloud's date. So whose to determine what supersedes what?

Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable? And maybe, just maybe, that&#8217;s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti&#8217;s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I&#8217;d argue that the other times the HAHW scene has been used it was simply being used as a placeholder.

Ryushikaze said:

Secondly, you DO realize you're engaging in doublethink, yes? It cannot both be "up to interpretation/ no clear answer" and "Clearly Clerith" at the same time.

Click to expand...

It isn't doublethink. I think the LTD is up to interpretation, and I'm pointing out why my interpretation is Clerith.