Did AVALANCHE stop using materia or not???

ForceStealer · Jan 4, 2009

[quote author=Dacon link=topic=242.msg5718#msg5718 date=1231050690]When did Yuffie use a limit in AC? Same for Cid, I don't recall them using anything that resembled a limit in AC.

Also, Barret's gun glowed green :monster:

Red did too :monster:

[/quote]

Yuffie uses Greased Lightning when she shoes up briefly during Vincent's DoC plug. SHE doesn't glow, but her shuriken does.

It could be argued that Cid uses Jump (or Hyper Jump or whatever its called, I don't remember). But he doesn't glow and I'm not sure how else he would gotten to Bahamut apart from jumping.

Barret's glowing gun seems to just be the machine gathering energy rather than his spirit or whatever but i dunno. Red never glows though.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

Pretty sure energy was coming from Red when he tackled Bahamut.

And DoC Yuffie wasn't who I was asking about :monster:

Masamune · Jan 4, 2009

Wow this topic went exactly where I thought it would be go and completely derailed.

The bottom-line is Nomura's quote was pointless, because from what Makoeyes says AVALANCHE don't choose materia out of respect they just choose it arbitrarily. Therefore Nomura didn't have to say anything.

OWA-2 · Jan 4, 2009

I think what Nomura said, is that Avalanche isn't using Materia anymore, because they know that using Mako drains the life of the planet. And they know that Materia is Mako(condensed in physical form).

That's how I understand it. And it makes more sense.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

I'm back bitches. :monster:

@OWA-2

Materia does not drain the life of the planet and the quote does not say that. So it has nothing to do with materia harming the planet. It doesn't make sense at all because all materia does is allow one to tap the knowledge of the Ancients and use said knowledge to cast magic with their spirit energy.

@Masamune

Yeah, a lot of director commentary is pointless, doesn't stop directors from talking since the book IS about what Nomura and the developers have to say since its their movie :monster:

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

I still doubt they actually use their life energy to cast fucking spells.

That should have some kind of longterm physiological downside if that was the case.

It sounds stupid.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

Magic just takes one's spirit energy to cast.

Maybe I shouldn't have said life energy. The only person that had their life being drained was Elfe because she had the materia grafted inside of her body. But materia still requires spirit energy to cast. It takes the interaction of the spirit energy and the spirit energy of the caster to call forth magic.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

Spirit Energy is the same as life energy.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

And when you use limit breaks, you use it by attuning your spirit energy with your body.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

That's not the same as expending it to use spells as you've stated. Spirit energy is not the same as blood, it doesn't repopulate itself after a time period, we have no reason to assume it does.

MP cannot be a measure of that, because it's highly unlikely that humans managed to make an item that replenish your LIFE FORCE.

Limit Breaks are more like channeling your spirit energy, it isn't
"used up" like Mp is. It just goes back to where it came from until your emotions charge up again.

And I'm still not seeing it said anywhere past that bit with Aerith, which is referring to the Black Materia, which by all means, probably does not work the same as normal materia, as does Holy.

The Black Materia is a very special case, I mean, it's a GODDAMN TEMPLE COMPRESSED INTO A SMALL BLACK BALL THAT CALLS A GIANT METEOR THE SIZE OF A PLANET.

Then there's this:

"It is said that the knowledge of the Ancients is within materia. By bringing
out this knowledge [through contact with the materia], one can interact with
the Planet and even an ordinary person can gain the powers of the Ancients."

That implies interaction with the materia through spirit energy, not expenditure of it to use it's powers as you seemed to imply in your previous posts. Of course this is different for Black Materia, since it's like, completely unique, like Holy.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

Actually it does, har har har :monster:

FFVII Ultimania Omega said:
*The Planet's circle of life*
1) A person grows......Their knowledge increases

2) They Return to the Planet (the Planet's growth)......When a soul returns to the
Planet, the Planet grows

3) The Planet produces new life......The next generation is born (the Planet
now bears the evolved energy gained from the previous generation of life it
produced)

When a person lives, and gains new experiences, and knowledge, that adds to their spirit energy and they grow. When a person dies, the spirit energy they newly aquired from living gets added back to the planet.

But is the Black Materia, a materia? It's never stated the Black Materia doesn't work like materia, because it does. It's just so fucking powerful a human can't use it.

And yeah, that quote means, the interaction between the person's spirit energy and the materia is needed. Some spirit energy must be used in order for the action to be used. It has a cost. Why do you think, there's a limit to how many times you can cast a certain spell?

Masamune · Jan 4, 2009

In terms of Limit Breaks, I would say spirit energy works in a similar way to adrenaline.

RE Materia: To further what Dacon said, materia interacts with the person's spirit energy but doesn't drain it. I'd say there's a cap on how much materia you can use to prevent one from mako poisoning.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

How could you get mako poisoning from materia? Mako poisoning comes from pure, uncrystalized mako/lifestream.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

But is the Black Materia, a materia? It's never stated the Black Materia doesn't work like materia, because it does. It's just so fucking powerful a human can't use it.

Black Materia drains the power of an entire planet, why would you assume it works the same as all other materia? Because of the name? It's not even Materia in the normal sense of the word.

Some spirit energy must be used in order for the action to be used.

Never explicitly stated in reference to your average materia.

It has a cost. Why do you think, there's a limit to how many times you can cast a certain spell?

When you use a muscle to it's limits, do your muscles get used up? No, you tire out, and have to rest until they're back to 100%, same for exercising your spirit energy.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

A human's spirit energy and the planet's is similar, except the planet is on a massive scale. Even Vincent says that within a person, there's a current, just like the lifestream. The principle's the same.

And what do you think would happen if you kept pushing yourself in terms of using materia too much past your point of exhaustion?

Masamune · Jan 4, 2009

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5825#msg5825 date=1231100865]
How could you get mako poisoning from materia? Mako poisoning comes from pure, uncrystalized mako/lifestream.
[/quote]

Mako poisoning happens due to an overload of knowledge from the Lifestream, crippling the person's mind. Since materia feeds the user in the same way, it could easily happen if you're overdependent on it.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

You have to be exposed to Lifestream or mako to get mako poisoning, not the crystalized, condescended portion of lifestream that's materia. Unless you're using a materia that has so much knowledge that it exceeds the very limits of your mind.

Maybe that's also why a single person can't use the Black Materia :monster:

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5827#msg5827 date=1231101102]
A human's spirit energy and the planet's is similar, except the planet is on a massive scale. Even Vincent says that within a person, there's a current, just like the lifestream. The principle's the same.[/quote]

Well no shit, but the Black Materia needs that energy to call the Meteor. As far as we know, the Meteor didn't magically materialize from nothing, it must have been called from somewhere, it's not the same as normal materia, which uses the knowledge of the lifestream, to command the forces of the planet.

And what do you think would happen if you kept pushing yourself in terms of using materia too much past your point of exhaustion?

As far as we know, you can't.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

The meteor materializes out of drifting planetoids smashing together. And it's the knowledge of the Lifestream that allows that magical phenomenon to happen. It's still materia, except its the ULTIMATE black magic materia, which is stronger than all normal materia.

And we do you can use materia past your point of exhaustion, that's what happens to Elfe. If you've got a materia in your chest that is forcing you to keep casting the spell that's attached to it, eventually its going to take its toll on you and you will die.

Masamune · Jan 4, 2009

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=242.msg5829#msg5829 date=1231101357]
You have to be exposed to Lifestream or mako to get mako poisoning, not the crystalized, condescended portion of lifestream that's materia. Unless you're using a materia that has so much knowledge that it exceeds the very limits of your mind.

Maybe that's also why a single person can't use the Black Materia :monster:

[/quote]

Obviously if you take a dive into some mako, you'll have an almost instant overdose of energy and lose your mind. But if you continually fed your mind with the power of materia, I don't see why the same effect couldn't happen.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

Because unless you're feeding your mind with a knowledge well beyond the capacity of your mind, when you stop using materia, the knowledge is lost. It's not like when you use it, the knowledge stays there. When you stop using the materia, the knowledge goes back inside the materia.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

The meteor materializes out of drifting planetoids smashing together. And it's the knowledge of the Lifestream that allows that magical phenomenon to happen. It's still materia, except its the ULTIMATE black magic materia, which is stronger than all normal materia.

Materia is crystalized Mako, the black materia is not It's materia that was supposedly transfigured into a temple, since when can materia be used to turn into an actual structure? It's not normal. It is not the same as normal materia why would you expect it to work the same way? The Black Materia actually expends huge amounts of spirit energy to call the Meteor according to Aerith, when normal materia at best interact with your spirit energy, not use it up.

And we do you can use materia past your point of exhaustion, that's what happens to Elfe. If you've got a materia in your chest that is forcing you to keep casting the spell that's attached to it, eventually its going to take its toll on you and you will die.

That's got more to do with constantly flooding your mind with foreign knowledge ALL THE TIME. That's probably what MP is meant to represent, the limit of the amount of knowledge your mind can handle from the materia until it gives out.

It's the same as when your brain is tired from studying a lot and trying memorize a lot of information in a short period of time. If you try and force the information into your mind, it won't take hold, which is basically what materia does.

And forgive me not knowing shit about a game I will never play.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

Actually, the Black Materia is crystalized mako. It was given to the Cetra from the planet itself. Where else would it come from if its crystalized materia? It's called materia for a reason.

**The Black Materia: Meteor** (005.3A)
It is the Ultimate Destructive Magic; it calls to planets [-- meaning
meteor-like rocks --] drifting in outer space and pulls them down to the
Planet. It was one of the magicks given to the Ancients, but due to it
harnessing enough power to destroy the Planet itself, the Ancients feared it
could prove dangerous and sealed it away by their own hands.

After falling into the Lifestream, Sephiroth learned of Meteor from the
Cetra's firsthand knowledge of it, and set into motion a plan to gain mastery
over the life of the Planet.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
When the Planet is hurt, the spiritual energy that is the Planet's very life
will automatically gather in that spot. Sephiroth planned to make use of this
by intentionally harming the Planet and gaining dominance over its energy.

But it's not about mental limits, there's also a dimension of one's own physical limits in regards to using/casting materia as well.

Max Payne · Jan 4, 2009

Black Materia is materia turned into a giant temple, since when can materia be turned into a giant structure? It has to be different from normal materia. The materia the Cetra utilized had to be different from that which is manufactured by Shinra.

But it's not about mental limits, there's also a dimension of one's own physical limits in regards to using/casting materia as well.

You're not giving me anything that proves that it has anything to do with physical limits. How can it not be about mental limits? IT FLOODS YOUR MIND WITH FOREIGN KNOWLEDGE.

That makes no sense at all.

Makoeyes987 · Jan 4, 2009

The Cetra somehow did it, dude. They did it because they were afraid of its power. Who knows what magic they did to it, but that's what happened. It's different because it's so powerful. It's the ULTIMATE Black Magic. But it's materia.

And yeah mofo, it floods your mind with foreign knowledge but it isn't just about reading a book and doing the instructions within. It takes one's spiritual power to manifest that MAGIC into reality.

Did AVALANCHE stop using materia or not???

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