Hypothetical Scenarios

[Ryu]

Syneiam wrote:

Oh this one is easy XD He'd be the leading character in FFVII, of course XD And Aerith wouldn't have to pursue Zack 2.0, Cloud wouldn't be so screwed in the head.

Maybe both Zack and Aerith would survive, or maybe they'd both die, if Aerith's death was necessary to protect the planet.

The Lifestream scene wouldn't be necessary anymore, and FFVII would lose a great deal because it was the pivotal point, IMHO, that made FFVII's story so much more interesting - what we learned until then was wrong, let's start anew!

I actually had an outline for a story that asked this question, and Zack wasn't the hero of FF7. He was definitely still 'the ace', but I figured he'd be out of commission with injuries even when he lived, so he'd pass the torch onto Cloud while he limped back to Aerith and went into hiding.
Incidentally, he lived because of another 'what if', that of Tifa learning he was in Nibelheim 5 years prior and the resulting interactions gave Cloud's ego and psyche that small boost to be somewhat more lucid, and react to Zack's impending demise by going insane and pulling a Cloud berserker moment.

[EverybodysGrudge]

I missed a couple pretty good thoughts last night, oops. Oh well, can't be here for all of them.

On the subject of Shinra calling in DeepGround to handle Sephy in the "Cloud and Zack weren't sent with him to Nibelheim" scenario, I agree if they came at him as a team he'd be pretty well screwed. I think he could potentially handle two of them at once, so long as those two came from the group of Shelke/Azul/Rosso. Weiss would really need to be one on one, and Nero might be able to take him out since he utterly lacks any connection to Chaos or other forms of Tainted Lifestream at this point. Either way, I agree this would be an epic battle, or more likely a series of epic battles since the colored Tsviets really don't seem to work together all that closely in battle (as we saw in DoC they tend to follow kung fu flick rules and go one at a time).

With regards to Zack not dying at the end of Crisis Core, we did have a number of different scenarios in the thread from which this one sprung wherein Zack's survival beyond CC and participation in the somewhat altered events of the main game came about, but we never did cover a scenario where that was the only major alteration from whence other alterations spun off. I have to answer with another question: How did Zack survive? Did he manage to defeat even that last handful of soldiers that finished him off in the canon timeline, or did he find a way to avoid the battle entirely? Perhaps the Turks actually found him before the battle took place in this scenario and prevented the battle from occurring? To really gauge how it would change things, we need to know how his survival came about.

And I have another one of my own: What if Angeal had truly lost his SOLDIER honor and become an insane monster like Sephiroth and Genesis both did? Instead of committing what amounts to suicide-by-Zack (TM) and passing on the Buster Sword, he attaches himself to the role of villain and such. Could Zack have defeated Angeal if Angeal really wanted to win? Even if he was able to, how would this vital difference in Angeal's character have altered the stories of Zack, Cloud, and by extension the fate of the Planet?

[Lord Noctis]

EverybodysGrudge wrote:

I missed a couple pretty good thoughts last night, oops. Oh well, can't be here for all of them.

On the subject of Shinra calling in DeepGround to handle Sephy in the "Cloud and Zack weren't sent with him to Nibelheim" scenario, I agree if they came at him as a team he'd be pretty well screwed. I think he could potentially handle two of them at once, so long as those two came from the group of Shelke/Azul/Rosso. Weiss would really need to be one on one, and Nero might be able to take him out since he utterly lacks any connection to Chaos or other forms of Tainted Lifestream at this point. Either way, I agree this would be an epic battle, or more likely a series of epic battles since the colored Tsviets really don't seem to work together all that closely in battle (as we saw in DoC they tend to follow kung fu flick rules and go one at a time).

With regards to Zack not dying at the end of Crisis Core, we did have a number of different scenarios in the thread from which this one sprung wherein Zack's survival beyond CC and participation in the somewhat altered events of the main game came about, but we never did cover a scenario where that was the only major alteration from whence other alterations spun off. I have to answer with another question: How did Zack survive? Did he manage to defeat even that last handful of soldiers that finished him off in the canon timeline, or did he find a way to avoid the battle entirely? Perhaps the Turks actually found him before the battle took place in this scenario and prevented the battle from occurring? To really gauge how it would change things, we need to know how his survival came about.

And I have another one of my own: What if Angeal had truly lost his SOLDIER honor and become an insane monster like Sephiroth and Genesis both did? Instead of committing what amounts to suicide-by-Zack (TM) and passing on the Buster Sword, he attaches himself to the role of villain and such. Could Zack have defeated Angeal if Angeal really wanted to win? Even if he was able to, how would this vital difference in Angeal's character have altered the stories of Zack, Cloud, and by extension the fate of the Planet?

That last theory is interesting. I think the anwser depends on when Angeal fights Zack. Does he attack him in the slums instead of tell him where Genesis is, or does he wait until after Zack and Genesis fight to ty and kill Zack?

In the first case I think Zack could win, since he would be at full strength for the fight. Of course Zack may be reluctant to fight Angeal all out. He would definetely defend himself, but I don't think he would give his all unless he suffered an injury of some sort.

In the second case, I think Zack would lose. After all, in CC he fights Angeal probably inside the same hour he fought Genesis, so he will be battered and worn out. If Angeal were to go all out Zack would likely die in that case.

[I'm Batman]

Everybody's grudge makes some good posts, but they hurt my eyes to read ;_;

[EverybodysGrudge]

I had similar thoughts, if Angeal turns heel early on in the slums, Zack has a pretty good shot at winning, and is at least likely to survive the encounter. Option two on the other hand carries a high chance for death. Zack was extremely reluctant to fight Angeal in the canon timeline, and if Angeal springs his decision to embrace his role as a monster on him out of the blue we can expect that reluctance to carry over into this alternate path. If Angeal is genuinely trying to kill Zack, that reluctance will likely end with Zack split head to toe by the Buster Sword (twisted irony, since he still "receives" the blade from Angeal). Since he isn't trying to commit suicide-by-Zack, I figure Angeal would not become Angeal Penance, since he would want Zack to see his real face and form without looking monstrous, increasing the poor puppy's reluctance to harm his mentor and idol.

Far reaching consequences vary somewhat on how Angeal goes about his villainy. We know for sure that without Zack, Cloud will lack a best friend in SOLDIER who can get him attached to important missions like the Nibel Reactor inspection, which would alter events greatly. But we must also ask, does Angeal work together with Genesis or compete with him? If he competes, it is likely Genesis will lose his life since Angeal is considered the superior product of Jenova Project Gillian. If that is the case, does Angeal take on Genesis' role in furthering Sephiroth's path to insanity in Nibelheim? I figure Sephy would lose it whether he does or not, but then we face the same question, does Angeal work with Sephiroth, united in their nasty scientific roots, or does he try to take him out too? It spirals off into a whole different thing, like a Tangent Universe where Cait Sith is designed as an uber-creepy rabbit instead of a cute little kitty riding a moogle.

Frank Sith: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end...

[Lord Noctis]

EverybodysGrudge wrote:

I had similar thoughts, if Angeal turns heel early on in the slums, Zack has a pretty good shot at winning, and is at least likely to survive the encounter. Option two on the other hand carries a high chance for death. Zack was extremely reluctant to fight Angeal in the canon timeline, and if Angeal springs his decision to embrace his role as a monster on him out of the blue we can expect that reluctance to carry over into this alternate path. If Angeal is genuinely trying to kill Zack, that reluctance will likely end with Zack split head to toe by the Buster Sword (twisted irony, since he still "receives" the blade from Angeal). Since he isn't trying to commit suicide-by-Zack, I figure Angeal would not become Angeal Penance, since he would want Zack to see his real face and form without looking monstrous, increasing the poor puppy's reluctance to harm his mentor and idol.

Far reaching consequences vary somewhat on how Angeal goes about his villainy. We know for sure that without Zack, Cloud will lack a best friend in SOLDIER who can get him attached to important missions like the Nibel Reactor inspection, which would alter events greatly. But we must also ask, does Angeal work together with Genesis or compete with him? If he competes, it is likely Genesis will lose his life since Angeal is considered the superior product of Jenova Project Gillian. If that is the case, does Angeal take on Genesis' role in furthering Sephiroth's path to insanity in Nibelheim? I figure Sephy would lose it whether he does or not, but then we face the same question, does Angeal work with Sephiroth, united in their nasty scientific roots, or does he try to take him out too? It spirals off into a whole different thing, like a Tangent Universe where Cait Sith is designed as an uber-creepy rabbit instead of a cute little kitty riding a moogle.

Frank Sith: 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end...

Would Sephiroth even end up in Nibelheim if all that happened though. I think if both Genesis and Angeal were tearing shit up Shinra would want Sephiroth on the frontline to handle them. I also believe that Genesis and Angeal would work together, being united by the belief that they are monsters. They would likely try to convert Sephiroth by telling him about Jenova, but I think Sephiroth would be more likely to fly into a rage and slaughter them instead of join them. From there he would almost certainly leave Shinra, but as to whether or not he would ever find out about the research in Nibelheim, not to mention the location of Jenova herself, is anyones guess.

[OWA-2]

Lord Noctis wrote:

Forgot about deepground. You make a good point. But Sephiroth is supposed to be the strongest SOLDIER, so it is possible he could take the Tsviets down and my scenario could still play out, unless he had to fight more than one tsviet at a time. In that case Sephy would be screwed.

The bolded part is what I was thinking about. After all, if he started killing everyone around him indiscriminately(and making Shinra look very bad in the eyes of the public, because of it) I believe Shinra would want to end the problem very quickly.

[Lord Noctis]

OWA-2 wrote:

The bolded part is what I was thinking about. After all, if he started killing everyone around him indiscriminately(and making Shinra look very bad in the eyes of the public, because of it) I believe Shinra would want to end the problem very quickly.

Agreed, though Nero could probably take Sephiroth by himself at this point.

[EverybodysGrudge]

Noctis, I definitely see your point with regards to Sephiroth perhaps not being the SOLDIER assigned to the Nibelheim inspection, since Shinra would likely want him combating the more immediate threat of Angeal or Angeal/Genesis. Since Angeal and Genesis are friends going all the way back to childhood, it makes sense that if Angeal did indeed decide to go with the monster thing, he'd team up with Genesis. Sephiroth was also closer to them than just about anyone else, so I agree they'd try to get him on the bandwagon. But I slightly disagree that he would lose it all at once and slaughter them, depending on how they handle it. If they first make certain to inform him of the circumstances of their own birth, emphasizing that his mother Jenova was related to them (if slightly less directly than she is to him) then he might embrace them as his comrades and join them in doing nasty monster-like badness.

I also agree with OWA-2 that in the circumstance of Sephiroth continuing his rampage past Nibelheim without being thrown into the reactor's core by anyone, Shinra would look at it as a financial, political, and public relations nightmare. They would of course be aware of how very dangerous Sephiroth is, and they wouldn't hold back their resources in trying to deal with him. Thus its entirely possible that the Restrictors might force obedience in the often contentious Tsviets and force them to attack Sephiroth all at once.

[Lord Noctis]

EverybodysGrudge wrote:

Noctis, I definitely see your point with regards to Sephiroth perhaps not being the SOLDIER assigned to the Nibelheim inspection, since Shinra would likely want him combating the more immediate threat of Angeal or Angeal/Genesis. Since Angeal and Genesis are friends going all the way back to childhood, it makes sense that if Angeal did indeed decide to go with the monster thing, he'd team up with Genesis. Sephiroth was also closer to them than just about anyone else, so I agree they'd try to get him on the bandwagon. But I slightly disagree that he would lose it all at once and slaughter them, depending on how they handle it. If they first make certain to inform him of the circumstances of their own birth, emphasizing that his mother Jenova was related to them (if slightly less directly than she is to him) then he might embrace them as his comrades and join them in doing nasty monster-like badness.

I also agree with OWA-2 that in the circumstance of Sephiroth continuing his rampage past Nibelheim without being thrown into the reactor's core by anyone, Shinra would look at it as a financial, political, and public relations nightmare. They would of course be aware of how very dangerous Sephiroth is, and they wouldn't hold back their resources in trying to deal with him. Thus its entirely possible that the Restrictors might force obedience in the often contentious Tsviets and force them to attack Sephiroth all at once.

Pretty much agree on the second point. But on the first one I slightly disagree. In CC Sephiroth was more or less aware that Genesis was the result of Genetic experimentation, but when Genesis told Sephiroth that his origins were similiar Sephiroth told him to fuck off. Though if both Angeal and Genesis were before him he might be less reluctant to turn them down, or at the very least reluctant to fight them. Though if Angeal had killed Zack, who Sephiroth considered a friend, then he would not be very quick to join him and Genesis.

[EverybodysGrudge]

Hmmm I had not considered the possible alterations to Sephy's reaction to Angeal and Genesis due to Zack's untimely "inheritance" of the Buster Sword. That would make things a wee bit rockier wouldn't it? I must say, I thought Sephiroth's reaction when Genesis had his appearance in the Nibelheim incident was largely due to his desire to not believe such a thing. Denial like that would of course cause him to go even nuttier when its proven correct (to a degree at least). I agree he'd be initially unwilling to believe it and perhaps recoil from the suggestion, but with the two of them both there, and at least acting supportive of their fellow monster experiment, I think they could at the very least redirect his anger to "Those Shinra fuckers that did this to us!"

Also, did anyone grasp my reference in an earlier post, with the Tangent Universe and the countdown and such? Epic Bonus for anyone who got that.

[Lord Noctis]

EverybodysGrudge wrote:

Hmmm I had not considered the possible alterations to Sephy's reaction to Angeal and Genesis due to Zack's untimely "inheritance" of the Buster Sword. That would make things a wee bit rockier wouldn't it? I must say, I thought Sephiroth's reaction when Genesis had his appearance in the Nibelheim incident was largely due to his desire to not believe such a thing. Denial like that would of course cause him to go even nuttier when its proven correct (to a degree at least). I agree he'd be initially unwilling to believe it and perhaps recoil from the suggestion, but with the two of them both there, and at least acting supportive of their fellow monster experiment, I think they could at the very least redirect his anger to "Those Shinra fuckers that did this to us!"

Also, did anyone grasp my reference in an earlier post, with the Tangent Universe and the countdown and such? Epic Bonus for anyone who got that.

Sadly did not catch the refference.

Sephiroth would certainly turn against Shinra, but I don't think he would go past that. If his knowledge of his origins came solely from what his former friends told him as opposed to documents he would react differently. Especially if they were supportive. In that case I doubt Sephiroth would turn into the monster we know, though Shinra might find itself suddenly short of employees.

[EverybodysGrudge]

Yeah, I'd agree he'd become a very different sort of monster if A.) he doesn't get the mistaken impression that he is the last surviving Cetra on the Planet and everyone else is a traitor, and B.) he never falls into the Lifestram and absorbs from it knowledge of his true origin/the information he needs to plan the Meteor crisis and achieve godhood. Shinra would be decimated, even if the Tsviets are called out I doubt even Weiss and Nero could handle Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis all at once. We might lose one or two to Nero's darkness, and the survivors would be wounded in the battle, but I definitely see the Jenova Three taking the win despite injuries and potential subtractions from the team.

[Lord Noctis]

EverybodysGrudge wrote:

Yeah, I'd agree he'd become a very different sort of monster if A.) he doesn't get the mistaken impression that he is the last surviving Cetra on the Planet and everyone else is a traitor, and B.) he never falls into the Lifestram and absorbs from it knowledge of his true origin/the information he needs to plan the Meteor crisis and achieve godhood. Shinra would be decimated, even if the Tsviets are called out I doubt even Weiss and Nero could handle Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis all at once. We might lose one or two to Nero's darkness, and the survivors would be wounded in the battle, but I definitely see the Jenova Three taking the win despite injuries and potential subtractions from the team.

Which of course leaves us to wonder what happens next. Genesis and Angeal are likely fully dedicated to this whole "We are monsters" thing, but Sephiroth might not be quite so dedicated. Provided his sanity is still intact would he recognize that the people who wronged him have been dealt with, and stand down from further destruction? Or is he gonna continue onwards. And what do Genesis and Angeal do? As far as I know in CC Genesis's only goals were cure degredation, kill shinra. I suppose he might want Sephiroth's cells to cure his degredation. Sephiroth may or may not give them to him. If not Genesis might try to take them by force.
Lord only knows how that would work out.

[EverybodysGrudge]

Judging from the training sequence flashback, Genesis trying to take S-Cells from Sephiroth by force would go poorly for everyone involved. Myself, I think Sephiroth would go insane anyway, it'd just take longer. He's a very intelligent man, in addition to all his awesome power that fact has been stated. I believe he'd grow curious about the process that made him a monster, especially considering Genesis' degradation (he'd obviously be concerned he might suffer similar effects at some point, though we know he would not). Thus in the midst of smiting Shinra, he'd also try to get information out of the Science Department, which leads to Hojo, which leads to disclosure of the Jenova Project's dirty details. Boom, Sephy goes crazy.