Do you hate Cait Sith?

I love Cait Sith, to be honest.

I don't really feel like there was enough to him for me to go as far as to say I liked him, but I also don't get all the vitriol that gets thrown his way.

No, he's not a completely pointless character just thrown in for comic relief as some people would have us believe. He's a necessary part of the plot, both for (as Force said earlier) taking Barret down a peg or two and keeping Shinra one step ahead for a large part of the story. Essentially, he becomes the middle ground between AVALANCHE and Shinra.

Only moar favorite character than Cait is Quina.

Mmm, Quina <3

even he's not so powerful (slot machine limit break apart) and i never used him in my team, i think he's a important character in the story.
completly agree with lex and force

Meh, I wouldn't use Cait Sith on my team. I'm not too crazy about his character, but he is there for poops and giggles and essential to the story, so I don't mind him.

He doesn't do much for me battle wise, but character wise I thought he was cute. :3

He is essentially Reeve, who I really like as a character. So yeah.

And why does Quina always get a pass where Cait Sith doesn't?

Also that.

I really do like Reeve.

Yes I like him. Cait Sith has the misfortune of being one of the really essential people in the plot, but had very little of himself in the spotlight if he wasn't betraying anybody. So he's overlooked for good reason. But I dunno... as I got older I kind of liked him.

I think Cait Sith/Reeve is the most selfless person in FFVII. Everything he did, he did for the people. He accepted his teammates anger but only got angry at them not for the way he was treated but because their actions hurt people. He was willing to work for a company he hated and get his hands dirty, only because it was the only way to help the people of Midgar.

The compilation did make a mess of some things, but one things I will always be thankful for is giving Reeve the proper time of day. Reeve is awesome in DoC and imo, the best character in the entire game. We see that even after Shinra is collapsed, he immediately tried to rebuild and develop some kind of stability, he's the kind of guy that is always looking at the bigger picture.

It sucks that they just didn't feel like developing Reeve in the original game but what can you do.

Also, I did not use Cait Sith during battles. Once I got instant death from his slots never again. And maybe I'm imagining it but I also thought his weapon selection sucked.

Yes.

Reeve made the plot of DoC bearable.

He really is kind of awesome.

I don't think I could ever hate him because he was a cat.

No seriously I felt his part Cait Sith and Reeves were important to the story and we see Reeves doing so much in the Complication as well with trying to rebuild the world after Meteor. Cait Sith I felt like was more then meets the eye. I never used him I will admit but I enjoyed him after he relieved himself, it felt important for him to be with them.

On a strange sidenote I have a odd headcannon about why Reeves uses a Caith Sith doll...

Not a preferred character, but an interesting one to play. Sort of like the "shittier" job classes in earlier FF games.

I played the game at fourteen and didn't find Cait Sith that absurd. I think it was only in my late teens (and when I started novelizing FFVII) that I stopped being able to reconcile the cartoon-nonsense moments with the grittier, philisophically-saturated elements of what is still kind of an adult story.

SpoonyOne's review of FFVII is funny: "He infiltrates the group by employing a robotic cat with a scottish accent who rides on the back of another huge robotic moogle like Master Blaster from Beyond Thunderdome. And seriously, this is the guy's plan, he's going to trick them into allowing a robot fortune-telling cat with a megaphone to be a part of their group.... and it works."

That being said, getting older, I kind of like the concept of Cait Sith more and more. I think he charms me more now that I've thought about him critically and learned to deal with his presence in the story. I'm not entirely sure what changed in me.

I assume this thread is in response to whatever DLPB or DLPB-ganger wrote on 1up this week, spewing his "remove Cait Sith" falderal. I've thought about that, thought about what it would mean to the story to remove Cait Sith or alter him in a way that is less... uh... starkly contrasting to the more serious tones. But it's actually some welcome levity, especially when his character arc is about kidnap, betrayal and self-sacrifice.

I don't hate him, but I do dislike him, for reasons I've mentioned elsewhere on the forum. When I have more time I'll add them to this thread too.

I just think that his whole recruitment story is meh, I mean why would they just allow a robotic cat with a stuffed toy in the group and then they are clueless on who the spy is.

But aside from that, I agree that he's important and he showed that there are good people at the top positions in Shinra which is good because it doesn't divide the game into a good or evil camp. Design wise he's also okay, we need a cute non-human member once in a while. And yeah he's the least used character in my party.

Danseru-kun said:

I just think that his whole recruitment story is meh, I mean why would they just allow a robotic cat with a stuffed toy in the group and then they are clueless on who the spy is.

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The same reason they let a talking wolf/lion/dog, a kleptomaniac ninja, and weird guy they found sleeping in a coffin join. Oh, and their leader is a guy who has severe memory issues. Welcome to anime worlds where logic in optional.

I like Cait Sith/Reeve if just for the fact that he humanizes Shin-Ra. Actually, it's one of the reasons I like FFVII so much, the evil corporation and the heroes aren't black and white, but different shades of grey. I wish more video games/movies/novels would have this type of character as it brings a lot of realism to the plot.

Danseru-kun said:

I just think that his whole recruitment story is meh, I mean why would they just allow a robotic cat with a stuffed toy in the group and then they are clueless on who the spy is.

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Because he walked into you. There's no fighting that. Obviously.

I HAVE wondered what ends up happening to Marlene. He kidnaps her...or claims to, and everyone's real pissed...and then forgets about it. He's lucky Barret just didn't abandon the party and head right for HQ to tear him limb form limb.

Obsidian Fire said:

The same reason they let a talking wolf/lion/dog, a kleptomaniac ninja, and weird guy they found sleeping in a coffin join. Oh, and their leader is a guy who has severe memory issues. Welcome to anime worlds where logic in optional.

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Well at least Red XIII is obviously opposed to Shinra or Hojo at least, as he has been captured by them, Vincent told you his life story before asking if he could join, Yuffie is a kid wandering in a deadly forest. Cait Sith just gave him predictions of the future.

But anyway it's not that it's really important. I really have no problem with him. I voted "indifferent." But I do like Reeve, it's just me but I treat them as separate even if they're the same person.

I like Cait Sith mostly because I believe he has great value as a foil and as a minority facet of Shinra (Turks are more "those two guys" than anything else). Ultimately, however, the mechanics of his involvement drive me spare. Mostly because he does a fantastic job of messing with my attempts to reason with what Materia itself is. I actually have less problem with the fact he is a robotic cat riding a flabby mog, because it can be kind of innocuous in its absurdity, and therefore unthreatening--and drives home that AVALANCHE is (Nick Fury voice) very, very desperate.

But he is a robot. Can robots use Materia? Even if he can, why are his magic stats some of the best in the game? Could he be powered by mako? Or Materia itself? Since Materia grows when used, could that explain his leveling up--becoming stronger? CAN INANIMATE OBJECTS USE LIMIT BREAKS?! Better stop using your stress ball lest it accrue a great deal of anger an' shit and become a wrecking-sandbag-ball that crushes you beneath its resentment-bloated bulk.

Another example of why game and novel storytelling conflicts make me have like an ulcer or something. Could Reeve have built in a remote-controlled or virtual control system that lets Cait Sith drain intent or mental energy or whatever from him?

Materia is so cray. I love it but man is it crayfish stew.

Sizheng, due respect, are you drunk? Or just typing on your phone? We've had in-depth discussions of Cait Sith in the past. Usually with less typos. (that being said, I am drunk)

I have the same issues, pretty much exactly. Concerning AI...: If Cait Sith is Reeve sitting behind a joystick (or Synaptic Net Dive or whatever) Cait's entire character is ergo about Shinra, and Shinra's moral ambiguity, and Reeve. I find that way more compelling.

There is evidence to suggest that Cait Sith is sentient artificial intelligence employed by Reeve, and although some people cling to this theory greatly, I find it stupid. Example: When Cait Sith falls over in the Temple of the Ancients, he gets up and says "Hey! I can still move more!" (FFVII US for PSX). I always thought it was a poorly executed comedy moment where Cait Sith was supposed to supply us with one last bit of slapstick (fall down -- "I'm ALL RIGHT!" -- laffs) but in the last few years I've heard alot of people say that it is a mistranslation from the Japanese script which says something more along the lines of "I can think for myself now because I am a sentient robot!" (source anyone? does anyone hold to this crackpot theory?)

Storytelling wise, both work with different themes of FFVII. Two of the main themes are "What is the relationship between humanity and good/evil?" and another is "What makes a person a person?" If Cait Sith is simply Reeve, then it expands the debate about whether corporations are "people" (another example of how FFVII was eerily prophetic) or whether they are collections of individuals who have complex motives. And if they are all trying to do the best they can for themselves and the world, how is Reeve better than Papa Shinra, who allows people to live at the height of technology, supplying their unending demand at the expense of the Planet? If Reeve denies humanity their progress, is he a villain? How is one man supposed to affect change in the world he lives in, when the only people who seem to have the right idea are blowing up reactors?

If Cait Sith has AI, the story becomes about personhood. Is Cait Sith one of the most human characters in the game? Cait Sith is bound by the programming he received by Reeve (and Dio?) but despite his programming he can make moral decisions and that is a fundamental part of agency, which is a fundamental part of personhood. Because of his actions despite the things he was programmed to do, Cait Sith is a fundamentally good character.

The second scenario seems a little... I dunno... sophomoric to me. Still cool, still totally acceptable for a YA story... but not quite FFVII imo. FFVII to me is all about moral ambiguity. Do you activate Holy (which might wipe out humans anyway) if it has a chance to stop Meteor? Do you kill thousands in blowing up Reactors to save the Planet? If Reeve (belonging to the villain crew) is a main character, he has the same hard decisions to make, except that he has to make them without player input. You, as the player, are helpless.

tl;dr I like Cait Sith now.

Mr. Ite said:

Sizheng, due respect, are you drunk? Or just typing on your phone? We've had in-depth discussions of Cait Sith in the past. Usually with less typos. (that being said, I am drunk).

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I was not drunk, nor am I now. I WAS, however, trying to respond beneath the table on my phone during a production meeting, which mostly involved not looking at what I was doing and forgetting my train of thought whenever anyone gave me a suspicious look.

So I think I did all right, all things considering. But I am envious of how eloquent YOU are when drunk. Envious to a pettish degree, even, which is why I'll point out that you only made one grammatical error/typo (lol Muphry's Law) in your reply. (Insert Hyperbole and a Half's "Alot" article here.) I wanna know how you can be drunk and so well-functioning.

You've said all and more on Cait Sith/Reeve than I had in mind. Which is why I'm gonna return to yammering about Cait Sith and Materia. Regardless of whether or not he is controlled by AI or by Reeve's joystick (durrhurr), it suggests that the magic in materia can be channelled through things without biomass--unless Cait Sith is a cyborg with flesh components. Which then sorta begs the question of how it works (and probably not with midichlorians or something). Is there any in-game evidence for this or is he a stuffed toy?

Actually, come to think of it, I buy into the idea that Cait Sith has an AI equipped because it wouldn't strike me as weird for the writers to try and tie that sort I cheesiness in regarding a personhood subplot. It certainly makes his and his dialogue at that time to make more sense, even if it could have been Reeve thinking that he could be of some sacrificial use--but for the audience to feel it, Cait Sith as an individual has to die. I do think Reeve is at the other end of a joystick, but he had to have built an autopilot program of some kind to deal with holding down the fort when he was in meetings, or sleeping, etc.

I don't think the decision at the Temple was solely Cait Sith, either--but he did have individuality at that point. I consider him maybe a learning AI program, with the limited faculties for consensus and individual thought by then after being manually piloted by Reeve for a while then, learning Reeve's onward from when you first encounter him. At the very least, even if Reeve controlled him, I like to think at in those last moments, Cait Sith was aware.

In short, I think you can have both--in that Cait Sith grew out of Reeve and is a self-aware, destructible offshoot of Reeve.

So yeah. With little squirming, I buy into the crackbrained plot.

I really don't know where this idea comes from that Reeve was always a good person. He seems to be a pretty good person by the end of the OG but that's because he's experienced a lot of character development. At the beginning, he is the of Shinra.

He is somebody who considers himself to be a good person, but who works with, and enables, bad people and their policies in order to fulfil his own ambitions. The fact that he has slightly more principles than anyone else on the board has probably allowed hm to think of himself as an exemplary good person, but only when measured against those he sits down to work with every day. He is the quintessential "jobsworth": he chose his own career, his own power and position, over the lives of the people in Sector 7. He could have warned them. He didn't. To my mind, this makes him morally no better than Reno. And he is worse in some ways than Pres Shinra and Heidegger, because he actively recognised that the atrocity they were planning was beyond the pale, and yet he did nothing aside from some feeble protests.

Later, he actively collaborates in the abduction of Marlene and in using her to force the party to tolerate his presence among them. And he never seems all that sorry.

It's no surprise that Reeve's alter ego is a cat. He always lands on his feet! He jumps the sinking Shinra ship at exactly the right time and throws his lot in with the heroes, yet never puts himself in any actual physical danger. Later, he ends up running the world (but taking money from Rufus under the table), while Tifa runs a bar and Cloud runs a delivery business. How the hell did that happen? Reeve is like Bill Clinton - he's the Teflon Shinra Executive. And he is so smug.

Don't get me wrong - I love the complexity of Reeve's character. But he's no simple good guy.

PS And yes, he hung around to help evacuate Midgar and rescue people. So did the Turks. I dunno, I always feel that Reeve is motivated less by simple humanity and compassion than by the need to constantly prove to everyone, including himself, how morally upright he is.

tbh, I can't see how Cait Sith (= all of it) can be a remote-controlled robot, especially not if you take AC into consideration, where it's a rather animated (as in non-mechanical) cat, . Which makes me think it's the fat moogle that is the robot, not the cat, also because fat moogle doesn't appear in AC. Or something.

Honestly I thought that's why the writers created the SND, to justify the how of Cait Sith. But then they said that Reeve is magic and he can bring machines to life. Totally forgot about that lololol