Is Midgar Zolom the Shinra Company's creation?

Shademp · Sep 28, 2013

Parts of the original game emphasize the recent rise in monsters.

(Man in Kalm Pub)
“Me? I used to work in a mine
down south called Mythril Mine”
“But, awhile back,
monsters started appearing.”
“After that, business went to pot
and now I spend the days here drinking.”

{TIFA}
“…Who would have ever
thought the Mako Reactor
held such a secret.”

{RED XIII}
“That would seem to explain the increase
in the number of monsters recently.”
“I think we should listen carefully
to {CLOUD}.
Don't you think so {BARRET}?”

So the general reference to monsters doesn't have to include Midgar Zolom (or "Midgardsormr", whatevs), but I'm still curious. Keep in mind also there is an unused battle where you fight the Midgar Zolom inside the Shinra HQ. Hojo's creation or just the snake captured from the wild?

Has Midgar Zolom existed for a long time in the FFVII-verse or is it a product of Shinra's activities? Is there, in the narrative, only one snake, in contrary to the gameplay which has an infinite number for you to fight?

If there was only ever one sample, then it must be assumed that Sephiroth (again, "in the narrative") killed the last and only one.

I suspect that the story around the Midgar Zolom is limited to what the game gives us and that the details are left up to interpretation. But what *should* be true about the Zolom? It seems to me that if the Mythril Mines were to be reopened, then removing the Midgar Zolom(s?) completely would be of high priority, even though the mines have more than one entry.

LicoriceAllsorts · Sep 28, 2013

Well... I think they have always existed but used to be smaller and less aggressive. Then when Shinra started processing mako it sent the ecology of the whole planet out of whack and animals were corrupted into monsters.

Akai Hana · Sep 28, 2013

In crisis core there's one scientist who released all the monsters to Kalm iirc because he was jealous of Hojo? I think it is in Kalm mission or something.. He might be the one who created Zolom..

The Twilight Mexican · Sep 29, 2013

Whatever their origin, I imagine that there's more than one such creature. While Choco Bill uses a definite article ("the") in the official English localization to refer to the snake(s), implying only one exists, the Japanese is less definitive:

Hmm, then it'll probably be safer for you to get a Chocobo.
That way you can zip through the marshes with the Chocobo.
It's the only way to avoid being attacked by the Midgar Zolom.
Midgar Zolom...?
It's a serpent-like creature over 30 feet tall!!

フム、それならばチョコボを手に入れたほうが安全ですな。チョコボで湿地帯をイッキに駆け抜けるわけです。これがミドガルズオルムに襲われない方法。
ミドガルズオルムとは……身の丈10メートルにならんとするヘビのバケモノ！

Interesting that they converted "over 10 meters" to "over 30 feet" here, but not with regard to the distance Midgar's plate is above the ground.

Anyway, being that the story has Cloud and co. using a chocobo to avoid attack when Sephiroth has already killed one of these creatures, I'm going to say there are many of them. I'll check the Ultimania Omega later, though, for further insight.

Obsidian Fire · Sep 29, 2013

My head-canon is that most of the wild-life we see is naturally occurring, but as more mako gets pulled up to the surface, more animals come into contact with it and become "better" monsters. Given that coming into contact with mako tends to make people more monstrous, I don't see why it wouldn't be the same with other living things.

Side note: in Canon, places with more mako (Mideel, Nibelheim, Gongaga, Norther Crater) have more "fearsome" monsters then places that don't have a lot of mako (Kalm, Costa Del Sol, Midgar, Rocket Town). This has nothing to do with the presence of Reactors, in fact, the reason why the reactors are there is because those places had lots of mako in the first place.

Akai Hana · Sep 29, 2013

@Tres yeah, in japanese there is no such thing called plural. One object can be singular or plural. Because in japanese nouns, singular or plural is not that important. If one book is called hon, a lot of books still called hon..

Knuxson · Oct 8, 2013

Komori Yui said:
@Tres yeah, in japanese there is no such thing called plural. One object can be singular or plural. Because in japanese nouns, singular or plural is not that important. If one book is called hon, a lot of books still called hon..

Interesting. So how do you distinguish between "bring me the book" and "bring me the books"? There must be some way to understand whether someone means for you to bring one or more than one, right?

LicoriceAllsorts · Oct 8, 2013

Knuxson said:
Interesting. So how do you distinguish between "bring me the book" and "bring me the books"? There must be some way to understand whether someone means for you to bring one or more than one, right?

"Context", as my Japanese teacher always says.

ForceStealer · Oct 8, 2013

I love that verbs don't conjugate...but I would appreciate pluralized nouns :monster:

I know -tachi can pluralize some things (watashitachi to turn I to we, for instance), but I've forgotten the rules/conventions regarding it.

Fangu · Oct 8, 2013

In reference to Norse mythology, there was only one Midgardsormr/ Miðgarðsormr (Old Norse)/ Midgarsormen (Norwegian), also referred to as Jörmungandr/ Jǫrmungandr (which was its first name before thrown into the sea). I think that's worth mentioning.

Shademp · Oct 8, 2013

I really wish that FFVII's world building was more detailed and well-conceived here.

My judgment may differ from others, simply because this is all based on intuition, but I dislike the idea of miners being forced to work in the mines if there is a giant serpent right outside their doorstep. Yes, Midgar Zolom dwells in the marshes and the Mythril Mines may make up a very elaborate labyrinth, but the monster is still very close. If the mines are ever to be reopened, then Midgar Zolom should be removed. Unless, as mentioned, Sephiroth didn't already finish off the last one.

Yet it also appears like a big oversight if the serpent isn't specifically mentioned when the townspeople of Kalm talk about the recent rise and creation of monsters.

Knuxson · Oct 8, 2013

LicoriceAllsorts said:
"Context", as my Japanese teacher always says.

I suppose so. As someone who has never studied Japanese (the only second language I have taken classes for is Spanish), it just is hard to wrap my mind around.

Shademp said:
I really wish that FFVII's world building was more detailed and well-conceived here.

My judgment may differ from others, simply because this is all based on intuition, but I dislike the idea of miners being forced to work in the mines if there is a giant serpent right outside their doorstep. Yes, Midgar Zolom dwells in the marshes and the Mythril Mines may make up a very elaborate labyrinth, but the monster is still very close. If the mines are ever to be reopened, then Midgar Zolom should be removed. Unless, as mentioned, Sephiroth didn't already finish off the last one.

Yet it also appears like a big oversight if the serpent isn't specifically mentioned when the townspeople of Kalm talk about the recent rise and creation of monsters.

Well, they could have not referenced the Zolom specifically because when you have a cave full of fearsome monsters, you might not necessarily single a particular one out, as they all are scary to these regular townspeople. Choco Bill might be the only one that references the Zolom specifically because he knows you want to get through the cave and a chocobo can get you past the big monster outside. After that, you are on your own when dealing with any others you might encounter.

LicoriceAllsorts · Oct 8, 2013

Shademp said:
I really wish that FFVII's world building was more detailed and well-conceived here.

My judgment may differ from others, simply because this is all based on intuition, but I dislike the idea of miners being forced to work in the mines if there is a giant serpent right outside their doorstep. Yes, Midgar Zolom dwells in the marshes and the Mythril Mines may make up a very elaborate labyrinth, but the monster is still very close. If the mines are ever to be reopened, then Midgar Zolom should be removed. Unless, as mentioned, Sephiroth didn't already finish off the last one.

Yet it also appears like a big oversight if the serpent isn't specifically mentioned when the townspeople of Kalm talk about the recent rise and creation of monsters.

Well, the Zolom doesn't ever go into the mine, it lives in the Marsh on the north side of the mountains. So it would be safe to work in the mine even if the Zolom wasn't dead.

Shademp · Oct 8, 2013

I still wouldn't think of it as safe. In gameplay the snake sticks to the marshes, yes, but it could easily crawl outside its territory in search for snacks when the marshes doesn't provide enough. But due to lack of data and NPC commentary, this matter is completely down to personal taste and intuition.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 8, 2013

Well, the snake probably can't fit through the mine entrance, much as it may want to.

On the topic of Japanese plurality, many items (e.g. books) have specific counters. So if you wanted to say "three books," you would say 本三冊 ("hon san satsu"), with "satsu" being the counter for books and "san" being three.

Clement Rage · Oct 8, 2013

Choco Bill breeds them so he can make money swindling travellers.

Failing that, the miners just leave through the other entrance, are personally flown across/supplied with security by the mining company whenever their leave falls due. Mining contracts tend to be long haul, so that could be as little as every couple of years.

Obsidian Fire · Oct 8, 2013

It's also worth to consider that the entrances Cloud and Co. use to get through the Mythril Mines are probably not the only entrances, they're just the most convenient ones for the party to use. Kind like how there has to be more towns then Cloud and Co. can access, but as disk space is limited, we only can access the towns that are relevant to the plot.

Gym Leader Devil · Oct 8, 2013

I always imagined the Zolom was a naturally occurring species, probably quite large and dangerous, but those in the marsh have been affected by pollution from Midgar and such and gone all Kaiju and shit.

LicoriceAllsorts · Oct 8, 2013

Obsidian Fire said:
It's also worth to consider that the entrances Cloud and Co. use to get through the Mythril Mines are probably not the only entrances, they're just the most convenient ones for the party to use. Kind like how there has to be more towns then Cloud and Co. can access, but as disk space is limited, we only can access the towns that are relevant to the plot.

Yes. It stands to reason that Chobo Billy's farm could not, in 'reality', be the only farm in the entire Grasslands, and so I think we can assume - if we want to - that we only see a tiny fraction of this world's towns and villages. In my headcanon there's a big mining town in the foothills south of the Zolom Range (or Mythril range, whatever you want to call it); it's become something of a ghost town since the monsters infested the mine, but I bet there are still some brave prospectors (like the ones in FFIX) who are willing to risk their lives to make a fortune. Cloud and Co just didn't happen to bump into any.

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Oct 9, 2013

I've always assumed there was only one Midgardsormr.

Novus · Oct 27, 2013

Shoggoth said:
I've always assumed there was only one Midgardsormr.

I want to say this too, but the game presents Weapon as singular too, when there are evidently more than one. I don't believe it is ever stated there is more than one weapon in the entire game script.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 27, 2013

This is true with one easily missed exception. A woman in Junon will say this after the party escapes from there early on Disc 2:

"I almost passed out when I saw Weapon.
It seems Weapon was beaten, but a Shinra soldier told me there are 4 more."

Her wording is still consistent with the umbrella usage of "Weapon," though.

Come to think of it, I wonder what her line says in the original Japanese release, where there were only ever three Weapons in total.

Novus · Oct 27, 2013

Thanks I'm not always aware of what all of the NPCs say at specific points.

Is there a full game script anywhere with everything in and not just the primary events? Someone told me the dialogue spoken by the climber at the bottom of Gaea's cliff changes in Disk 3 and I wanted to get there to read what it was but didn't have a saved game. Stuff like that really.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 27, 2013

Yinza.com has the most complete script, though Shademp could access anything at any time if you have a specific question.

Shademp · Oct 27, 2013

Hawkeye said:
Come to think of it, I wonder what her line says in the original Japanese release, where there were only ever three Weapons in total.

I thought you'd never ask. <3

The original release has the number being 2, not 4. That's the only thing that changed.

JORG:
「ウェポンを見たときにゃ
　本当にコシがぬけてしまったよ」
「あのウェポンは倒されたようだけど
　神羅の兵士が、あと２匹
　ウェポンがいると言っとったんじゃ」

JINT:
「ウェポンを見たときにゃ
　本当にコシがぬけてしまったよ」
「あのウェポンは倒されたようだけど
　神羅の兵士が、あと４匹
　ウェポンがいると言っとったんじゃ」

PSX English:
“I almost passed out
when I saw Weapon.”
“It seems Weapon was beaten,
but a Shinra soldier told me
there are 4 more.”

PC English:
“I almost passed out
when I saw Weapon.”
“I heard Weapon was beaten,
but a Shinra soldier told me
there are 4 more.”

JORG snapshot:

Is Midgar Zolom the Shinra Company's creation?

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