Did Cloud Read Zack/Tifa's Memories?
- Thread starter hleV
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Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Yeah the Jenova in Cloud used Tifa's memories to create the fake persona when she found him at the train station. That's why the Clod we get at the start at the game matched Tifa's impression of a guy who is always getting into fights. Tifa never knew the reason behind Cloud's difficulties back in Nibelheim (he was blamed for her coma).
Cloud's persona was also based on stories Zack told him while he was Mako-poisoned. I don't think he originally took his memories too as Zack was originally bullets in the brain dead when Cloud finally got moving but as of Crisis Core, who can say.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
Well, no.
Cloud didn't consciously 'read' Tifa/Zack's memories and willingly decide to make them his own. It was an unconscious adaptation that expressed himself into thinking he was someone else.
Cloud didn't consciously 'read' Tifa/Zack's memories and willingly decide to make them his own. It was an unconscious adaptation that expressed himself into thinking he was someone else.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Well he guessed the appearance of the Mako creature in the Nibelheim Reactor without personally ever seeing it if CC is anything to go by. But perhaps Zack's style of storytelling just has Tolkienian levels of prose.
Skan
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- dief
He should have some recollection of Genesis, considering he met Genesis in the Modeoheim mission. As for Angeal ... right before Zack faces Angeal in the bathhouse, we find Cloud and Tseng knocked out. I always just assumed that Angeal knocked the two of them out, since I can't really imagine Tseng falling to a monster.
Was always under the impression that the Zack memories Cloud does hold come from all the stories Zack told him while he was catatonic. Like, he wasn't responsive, but he was passively absorbing a lot of things from Zack (e.g. his past, his gestures, his body language, etc.).
Was always under the impression that the Zack memories Cloud does hold come from all the stories Zack told him while he was catatonic. Like, he wasn't responsive, but he was passively absorbing a lot of things from Zack (e.g. his past, his gestures, his body language, etc.).
hleV
Pro Adventurer
So I've replayed FFVII, trying to focus my attention (albeit not completely successfully, FFVII is just like that) on all the small details.
In FFVII itself there's not that much to go with to answer the question of this topic, mainly because we only see Cloud's version of what happened in the past and not Zack's.
However, there's no indication that Zack had told Cloud about Zack's own experiences at Nibelheim: the Mako-showered monsters in the reactor, Sephiroth finding Jenova, spending time in Shinra Mansion's underground, going insane soon afterwards, etc.. (The Nibelheim Aftermath flashback doesn't trigger for me for some reason, by the way.) Yet, Cloud goes on to describe those events in quite the detail.
My personal conclusion from what I've seen in FFVII: Cloud does have Zack's memories mixed with his own. How? Unexplained.
CC further confirms this by having Zack's real experiences being not that different from what Cloud thought was his.
Regarding Tifa. In her flashback she finds Cloud in some bad state, but Cloud quickly recognizes Tifa and recovers as if nothing was wrong. Can't really make any conclusions out of that.
In FFVII itself there's not that much to go with to answer the question of this topic, mainly because we only see Cloud's version of what happened in the past and not Zack's.
However, there's no indication that Zack had told Cloud about Zack's own experiences at Nibelheim: the Mako-showered monsters in the reactor, Sephiroth finding Jenova, spending time in Shinra Mansion's underground, going insane soon afterwards, etc.. (The Nibelheim Aftermath flashback doesn't trigger for me for some reason, by the way.) Yet, Cloud goes on to describe those events in quite the detail.
My personal conclusion from what I've seen in FFVII: Cloud does have Zack's memories mixed with his own. How? Unexplained.
CC further confirms this by having Zack's real experiences being not that different from what Cloud thought was his.
Regarding Tifa. In her flashback she finds Cloud in some bad state, but Cloud quickly recognizes Tifa and recovers as if nothing was wrong. Can't really make any conclusions out of that.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Airling
Ninja-Fairy-Jedi-Princess
Benj and I were discussing this just the other day. The thing with the Jenova cells and Tifa explains quite a bit of it.
I have wondered if Cloud's memories from Zack couldn't have had something to do with whatever experiment was being performed on them in Nibelheim? This ▼
seems to suggest some such.
I have wondered if Cloud's memories from Zack couldn't have had something to do with whatever experiment was being performed on them in Nibelheim? This ▼
seems to suggest some such.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
He got the Jenova cells and mako during that experiment, so yes.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Oh. In that case, then no. The experiment's aim was to test Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
Why couldn't Cloud's memories from Zack have been transferred the same way as Tifa's? Apparently, after Cloud dragged himself into Midgar after Zack died, Tifa finds him and the jenova cells react to Tifa's memories to form a personality for Cloud. It sees the boy Cloud who Tifa knew as a kid that left town to become a Soldier and adopts that identity.
On the way to the center of the crater in the illusions Sephiroth creates, Sephiroth says:
"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......
A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them."
Of course, it turns out that he is the real Cloud from Tifa's childhood after all.
But if Cloud took on Tifa's memories, why could he not do the same when he was in contact with Zack after they busted out of the Shinra Manor and traveled to Midgar?
The way I have always understood Cloud's personality during disc 1 and the beginning of 2, is that while he was with Zack, the jenova cells in him were learning Zack's mannerisms, personality, memories, etc., and when he came into contact with Tifa in Midgar, the jenova cells saw Cloud (a boy who left to join Soldier) and applied Zack's personality and mannerisms to that identity. Since Zack was a Soldier his personality and memories would mesh well with the boy who left to become just that, a Soldier.
That is why Cloud knew things that only Zack saw, and things that Tifa saw. Tifa remarks that Cloud knew things he shouldn't, and didn't know a lot of things he should. Of course, Cloud saw more of what transpired in Nibelheim than Tifa thought, since he was there the whole time in uniform.
Some of Cloud's own memories apparently were there during disc 1 as well, as in his first retelling of the Nibelheim incident he can recount seeing his mother, but the memory is incomplete and jumbled and he can't remember anything more than snippets. This tells me that during disc 1, his personality pretty much is made up of Zack's and Tifa's memories, while the suppressed real memories only surface every now and then, which only cause to confuse Cloud as they are either incomplete or don't match up to what he thinks he knows to be true.
Also the real Cloud remembers he and Tifa not being close friends, but during disc 1 Cloud thinks they were best friends, since Tifa has forgotten they weren't close and thinks they were closer than they actually were. He was only going off what she remembered in that case.
On the way to the center of the crater in the illusions Sephiroth creates, Sephiroth says:
"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.
Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you.
Out of Tifa's memory......
A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them."
Of course, it turns out that he is the real Cloud from Tifa's childhood after all.
But if Cloud took on Tifa's memories, why could he not do the same when he was in contact with Zack after they busted out of the Shinra Manor and traveled to Midgar?
The way I have always understood Cloud's personality during disc 1 and the beginning of 2, is that while he was with Zack, the jenova cells in him were learning Zack's mannerisms, personality, memories, etc., and when he came into contact with Tifa in Midgar, the jenova cells saw Cloud (a boy who left to join Soldier) and applied Zack's personality and mannerisms to that identity. Since Zack was a Soldier his personality and memories would mesh well with the boy who left to become just that, a Soldier.
That is why Cloud knew things that only Zack saw, and things that Tifa saw. Tifa remarks that Cloud knew things he shouldn't, and didn't know a lot of things he should. Of course, Cloud saw more of what transpired in Nibelheim than Tifa thought, since he was there the whole time in uniform.
Some of Cloud's own memories apparently were there during disc 1 as well, as in his first retelling of the Nibelheim incident he can recount seeing his mother, but the memory is incomplete and jumbled and he can't remember anything more than snippets. This tells me that during disc 1, his personality pretty much is made up of Zack's and Tifa's memories, while the suppressed real memories only surface every now and then, which only cause to confuse Cloud as they are either incomplete or don't match up to what he thinks he knows to be true.
Also the real Cloud remembers he and Tifa not being close friends, but during disc 1 Cloud thinks they were best friends, since Tifa has forgotten they weren't close and thinks they were closer than they actually were. He was only going off what she remembered in that case.
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Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
They CAN, they just had absolutely no reason to bother. The other Sephiroth Clones don't copy anyone other then Sephiroth do they?
He specifically says that Zack told him the story while he was unconcious. I feel the Compilation supports that version, as it has him talk to Cloud while on the road quite frequently.
He remembers the bits that fit into his version of being there as a First Class SOLDIER.
disc 1 Cloud never thought they were best friends nor did Tifa.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
Well, the other clones were messed up (similar to how Cloud was after Zack gets him out of Shinra Manor and up to when Tifa finds him). The other clones were failed expiriments, as Hojo remarks that Cloud was the only successful Sephiroth clone. The jenova cells only achieved causing these other clones to follow Sephiroth for the reunion.
Well, yes, even the original game supports that Cloud was unconscious during the trip to Midgar with Zack. That doesn't mean the jenova cells weren't taking in Zack's personality during that time. I don't think it matters if Cloud himself perceived anything.
Yeah. But those memories that are both real, and part of his version of being a first class Soldier, are the most shaky, such as visiting his mom. There are constant flashes and interruptions during his retelling of that part of the story.
That's not true. They talk all the time in disc 1 about being childhood friends, making the promise at the well, etc. Then, in disc 2 inside Cloud's consciousness, Tifa remembers that they weren't that close as kids and that Cloud actually never really hung out with Tifa much, but was kind of an outcast. Tifa remarks that she had forgotten about that, since after Cloud left she thought of him a lot and wondered if he had made it to Soldier. After growing up, her memories of Cloud were more idealized than they actually were. The jenova cells in Cloud adopted this version of their past. It isn't until they are inside Cloud's consciousness that they discover the truth was different than their (or Tifa's) memories.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
As you say Cloud was exactly like the other clones up until the moment he met Tifa. So why do you think his Jenova being much more enterprising in assembling the building blocks for a personality he didn't yet knew he wanted before then?
Nowhere in Disc 1 does Tifa or Cloud they hung out all the time. And Tifa didn't claim to have forgotten how ill Cloud fit in. In fact the first thing she asks Cloud is whether he was been fighting with Barret again, as she believes he was wont to do as a kid. What Tifa forgot about was the events that put her into a coma. Nor did she know that Cloud was thought responsible for it. And that her friends actually knew better.
Not knowing what lay between her father, her friends and Cloud coloured her perception of Cloud and in turn effected how Disc 1 Cloud acted.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
Well, as he was apparently the only successful Sephiroth clone, it could be that his jenova cells were able to carry out their nature of mimicking other lifeforms, whereas the other clones could not do it successfully. It seems to me that the jenova cells took in elements of Zack while Cloud was with him, and then when it sees Tifa's memories, it has the perfect identity to adopt, using the boy Tifa knew and the elements of a Soldier (Zack). Plus, of course, Cloud obviously looked like Cloud from Tifa's memories (because he is the Cloud from Tifa's memories lol). It didn't adopt a persona before seeing Tifa because, while it had learned some elements from Zack, Tifa gave it everything it needed to make a full-fledged identity.
They don't say they hung out all the time, but it is implied that they were close. There is definitely nothing in disc 1 that says they weren't close. They could have been close even if Cloud got into fights as a kid. She remembers him getting into fights, but she also mistakenly believes they were closer than they actually were. If you look at it from the perspective of the viewer (us) the viewer is led to believe they were good friends growing up until you find out the truth in disc 2. There is a reason the writers did it that way: so we would also think they were good childhood friends, but then surprise us when we find out the truth. But, like I said, Tifa also thought that. From the script while in Cloud's consciousness:
Little Cloud
Do you know where this window goes to, Tifa?
Fine...... I'll go.
They look through the window into Tifa's room.
Tifa
My room?
Cloud
It was my first time there.
Tifa
Was... it?
Cloud
I only used to look up at it from outside.
A flash, and a young Tifa is sitting in the corner with a trio of boys around her.
Boy
Hey, look!
Cloud's coming!
Out the window, they see Cloud approach the house.
Boy
You think he wants to come in?
Tifa looks up and shakes her head.
Tifa
Was that the first day you came into my room?
...that's right.
We lived next to each other.
But I really didn't know you that well.
I've known you since we were children and always thought we were close...
Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room...
She specifically states during this memory that she always thought they were close, but, as Cloud begins to remind her how their childhoods actually played out, she remembers that Cloud never even hung out with her and her friends and never even stepped foot in her room.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
I prefer to think that Tifa gave Cloud the motivation needed to become the successful one. If the jenova cells had already decided on mimicking Zack then it eliminates any real input Tifa and Cloud had in the whole affair.
"Implied to us" hardly proves that Cloud also thought this.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That's what the cells were supposed to do, though, and the only thing the clones were meant for. They were all successful. Hojo just didn't get to see the others because Sephiroth had already killed them and let Jenova "eat" them, so Hojo -- seeing only Cloud -- concluded he was the only success.
Knuxson said:
There's no reason it couldn't be the case, but we've not been explicitly told that it was, as we have with "he heard Zack's stories" and "he read Tifa's mind."
I see no harm in believing that it was a combination of factors with Zack. It hasn't been confirmed, but it seems to make the most sense, what with Cloud's frighteningly accurate "memory" of certain events.
Of course, one could fanwank the whole problem away with the idea that the cells in his body hadn't yet gained enough strength to outright read minds until Tifa found him.
Novus
Pro Adventurer
I thought the implication in the original game was that it's due to Jenova's influence that Cloud ended up at the whirlwind maze. Meaning all the way through the game you were inadvertently being summoned by Jenova.
The other characters are inconsequential because Cloud was making the decisions, and at times it was they who took the journey off-course. Barret in the desert, Red XIII, Yuffie ect.
The other characters are inconsequential because Cloud was making the decisions, and at times it was they who took the journey off-course. Barret in the desert, Red XIII, Yuffie ect.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
That was just one point I was making, though. While not always definitive, I think it is helpful to put yourself in the writers' shoes to consider why they told the story the way they did. But, without that consideration, since Tifa remembered them being closer than they were (as shown in the quoted script I provided), and Cloud's memories during disc 1 were primarily based on Tifa's memories, he also thought they were close as kids.
You are right, Novus, that the implication is that Cloud was actually being summoned to follow Sephiroth/Jenova for the reunion, instead of pursuing Sephiroth of Cloud's own free will. Thus, in the end, he behaved the same as the other clones, except that he was not as messed up and devoid of personality like the others.
Maybe the other clones weren't failed, but they just never stumbled upon something or someone to act as a catalyst for Jenova's mimic ability? Tifa sort of acted as the catalyst for Cloud, since her memories were the perfect fit for an identity. Perhaps if Tifa never found him, he would have ended up just like the guy in the slums with the tattoo.
Or maybe Hojo considered Cloud the only successful clone BECAUSE he made it all the way inside the crater, due to being strong like Sephiroth, whereas the other clones were weak and feeble.
There's no reason it couldn't be the case, but we've not been explicitly told that it was, as we have with "he heard Zack's stories" and "he read Tifa's mind."
I see no harm in believing that it was a combination of factors with Zack. It hasn't been confirmed, but it seems to make the most sense, what with Cloud's frighteningly accurate "memory" of certain events.
Of course, one could fanwank the whole problem away with the idea that the cells in his body hadn't yet gained enough strength to outright read minds until Tifa found him.
Yeah, and I guess I typically like to go with what was presented in the game, rather than what the creators have confirmed as happening. Although, since there are certain ambiguous aspects to this game, I suppose that is often the most reliable source. As you say, Cloud knew of a lot of events with accuracy. Plus, in the OG's scene where Cloud and Zack are traveling to Midgar, you see that Zack's mannerisms are identical to Cloud's mannerisms during disc 1, such as doing squats and the "cool" Soldier pose. How could Cloud have the exact same mannerisms as Zack if he didn't pick something up from Zack while they were together. I think there was a reason that scene shows Zack acting like Cloud did during disc 1, especially considering that we are shown this after we discover the truth.
EDIT: I just rewatched the OG scene where Cloud and Zack are traveling to Midgar in the truck. He for sure does do his "cool" pose and squats. Also, and I forgot about this, Zack talks about becoming a mercenary when he gets to Midgar, which is exactly what Cloud ends up deciding to do.
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hleV
Pro Adventurer
Is Jenova able to absorb info without physical interaction? I find it interesting how Cloud was able to recall the Nibelheim Aftermath so clearly even though he was in a bad... state at the time. Was Jenova's cells simply absorbing it all? Or did the in-Zack's-mind info kick in when they touched again (before/after Zack got shot by Shinra troops)?
Well, I don't think it matters that much, but the way I see it, it's mostly thanks to Jenova's ability to read memories rather than Cloud's ability to imagine things that got him all mixed up.
Well, I don't think it matters that much, but the way I see it, it's mostly thanks to Jenova's ability to read memories rather than Cloud's ability to imagine things that got him all mixed up.
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