Regarding lifetime bans, specifically L

I'm not sure where to bring this up, so if there is a more appropriate place, or it's better as a 121, please move it.

I'd like to make a case for L and possibly anyone else on a lifetime ban who wants to come back.

The guy has made mistakes in the past, there is no denying that, but neither is his obvious desire to come back to TLS. Given his behaviour on recent returns did not include any knobish behaviour and given that he has a lot of friends on this site and given that we are all adults and change, mellow, become better people over time - is it not time to review the lifetime ban?

May I suggest a 1, 3 or 5 year ban instead and then a probation period where if anyone complains about the person during their first 3 months back then they are out? Or that if the person is known to staff action be taken within sensible parameters?

There are indeed those who want to return to cause trouble, Username no doubt and those which should have a restraining order on them, no need to name who there - I'm not advocating for them, they are assholes and obviously just want to cause trouble.

But if someone genuinely wants to reconnect with old online mates, and in L's case, can only do so under a dupe account, continuously banning him seems a bit petty nowadays. I could understand if we were all teens, and needed a firm hand but we're not and so imo should rework how this forum is run to reflect that. We're all getting old and some of us are even getting wise, we should adapt. And besides, the guy just wants to talk tattoos, babies and graphics, not bring down the fabric of our community.

Unless I'm missing some ban-worthy crime L committed recently apart from having a dupe account?

FWIW, I am not opposed to this. But I should probably qualify that by saying I don't remember personally having any interactions with L, so it wasn't me he offended.

Personally, if he had said he wanted to come back and apologised for his past actions to begin with I wouldn't have had a problem allowing him back -provided there were no repeat incidents. But I say this as someone who hasn't been on the receiving end of his behaviour, and tbh it's not something I would expect people to forgive easily.

But the fact that he created a dupe and seemingly had no intention of apologising doesn't bode well.

I think the dupe account was more the only way he could come back in rather than an unwillingness to apologise. AFAIK there really is no other way a banned person could come back. I think if a dialogue is opened with him and this is explained to him, he'd have a very mature response and probably would apologise - though I can't say that for sure obviously.

I think he should be given a change to apologise if that's what his coming back hinges on, I guess it's all about communication and how we best go about it within the confines of this platform.

What I mean was, if he'd made a dupe account and first thread came clean and apologised I'd be willing to give him a chance (bearing in mind it's not for me to forgive) or else he could have contacted us through email, or people he was speaking to on facebook or something.

Having no experience with L, I can't speak personally. My general view has been this:

I'm in favor of forgiving- but not forgetting.

I agree with Octo that an apology for any prior action would probably be a good way to start, though I think actions speak louder than words. And to play devil's advocate, sometimes it's better just to not bring it up and to try and start fresh. Sometimes, especially in the always on world of the internet, apologizing for past misdeeds (apart from more often than not being skeptically viewed) can bring about memories which people would rather forget and move on.

I'd be in favor of amending ban terms on the basis of merit, not on whether a person said the right things at one point. And I will say this- aren't there other methods of communicating with certain people (Facebook comes to mind). Creating a dupe account and not identifying themselves immediately is questionable.

I realize I sound indecisive, just trying to muddle through both sides of the argument.

He'll take one look at my name here and remind everyone why he's banned.

Octo said:

Personally, if he had said he wanted to come back and apologised for his past actions to begin with I wouldn't have had a problem allowing him back -provided there were no repeat incidents. But I say this as someone who hasn't been on the receiving end of his behaviour, and tbh it's not something I would expect people to forgive easily.

But the fact that he created a dupe and seemingly had no intention of apologising doesn't bode well.

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I've been on the receiving end of his behavior for 3 years? Before I left this side of the interwebs. I'm not exactly how it all began but we've always had tension, and I'm pretty sure that mostly had something to do with the company we kept. But if people want him back and miss him, who am I to question it. I mean, that speaks to him being a good person somewhere.

though I think actions speak louder than words.

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Isn't apologising an action? . It may also be words, but it is also an important action. Part of the maturation and reconciliation process is recognising past wrongs. How would you feel if someone you had issues with in the past entered your life as if nothing had happened, and not only that, were then also told to "deal with it" by the community? . That would rile me up something chronic.

Ghost X said:

though I think actions speak louder than words.

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Isn't apologising an action?

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[/quote]

The "action" of typing "i'm sorry" requires the effort to hit 7 letters on a keyboard. I don't care if somebody says they are sorry, I care that people show that they are sorry.

That said, and as I've said initially, it's a good starting point, but it wouldn't be enough by itself. There were many trolls I've seen on the old forums I was in that would apologize and literally two posts later start in with their old shit again. [/QUOTE]

Full disclosure time:

L and I do not have a good history. We don't have an absolutely terrible history like some other people on the board do with him, but it's not a good one. I'm not going to go into specifics - there are old threads for that, but those threads are old and that is fairly important. For all I know he's changed. At this point I have moved far beyond his previous comments, and I said as much in staff when we were discussing this new account.

The important point to take home here is that I decided to take a back seat with this decision because I felt I would be biased, so I didn't "cast a vote", and neither did Yop. I gave my input in as much as I have said in the previous paragraph and then said "I'm taking nothing else to do with this".

I literally don't care and have no ill will towards the guy, but there might be a perception that I do because he tried to come back early last year and I essentially voted no with the rest of staff then. The real problem is that there are people with whom he crossed a line that goes beyond simple trolling or rude behaviour, and those people are still here. Those again are not my details to go into. Additionally, it was generally accepted by everyone (even his friends) that over his nigh-on ten years on both ACF and TLS he had one of the worst records of anyone who ever came through TLS for offending people for his own lulz and generally just breaking the rules for the sake of breaking the rules. Older members will tell you this.

On the flip side of the coin, the people he saw fit to not be horrible to have been telling me for years that it was all just trolling and it's cool because he's open and honest about being a troll and it's all for lulz, everyone that can't handle is should get off the internet and also he's a really cool guy. I accept that he must be a cool, personable guy because I like these people and I value their opinions, but mostly because we're both Scottish XD.

But as I say, there are other people who had a far worse experience with L that really does go beyond simple trolling who... this isn't a "let go of your grudges" type situation. It's not that simple. It's not "he was horrible to me", it's "he tried to ruin my life" - and as we've established in the past, what is one groups lulz is another's fear and victimisation.

Meaningful one-on-one dialogue must be opened between L and the people he made feel victimised along with a promise that he won't go down that road again for there to ever be any hope of him returning. I'd like to see that happen because I feel like I'm missing out on something considering half my friends on TLS talk to him to this day, but the onus is on L to do so.

Something else to point out is that we have suspensions and we have used them before, and you can set any time on those. This was a permaban, and we only have three of those to my knowledge (of notable members). Username, Vendel and L. Is it fair to the other two to let him back just because he has friends here and they don't? Considering L's history of rulebreaking goes way beyond Username's, is comparable to Vendel's and the only reason he was allowed to continue for so long is because he had so many friends here in the first place? Also, circumventing any ban normally extends the life of the ban.

Most importantly: is it fair to the people he worked hard to make feel victimised? Because I'm more concerned about their comfort posting than I am about whether or not L has changed. This is why I've said this shit needs to be sorted between the people involved before the possibility comes up.

The old L would read this post, write "tl;dr you whiny annoying cunt" (actual stuff he said to me numerous times before). To him and his friend's that's "just L" and "well it might be true lol", but to me that's not funny. To them me not finding treatment of members like that being funny was perceived by them as "get off the internet, you're too fucking sensitive you fucking pansy". This was acceptable back then because he was in with a big group from ACF and to be frank the way staff dealt with everything was a fucking shitshow. The board culture (thank god) has completely changed since then and has become more fair. I don't think there's a new member here who can say they've seen someone speak to someone else like that and not get immediately banned, and I'm so glad for that. Because now people don't have to feel like shit when they just want to post about FFVII anymore.

L if you're reading this and you wouldn't write that (whether or not that's what you actually think being irrelevant), then cool. If you'd still write it, what's the point of coming back just to get banned again? And I mean actually coming back with the blessing of the people here, not creating a dupe to fly under the radar but let everyone you used to be friends with know it's really you.

Disregarding all of this shit, I've heard some of your life developments through the grapevine and I hope you and your family are doing well <3.

Before his departure and ban from the boards, L was one of our most troublesome members. The very first infraction was handed out to him. He has, unless something has changed recently, the highest number of infractions and infraction points. Maybe Vendel had more. Both were notorious for flaming other members. He has a very very long history of causing trouble and not holding his tongue.

Speaking as someone on the receiving end of L's wrath, it was not pleasant. He said a lot of seriously libelous shit, and a simple one sentence apology is not going to counteract years of hurled abuse.

Speaking as a mod, this also isn't the first time we've looked at and considered his ban. We did so just last year. The general thurst of that discussion was to wonder if L could stop himself from starting trouble again. The consensus was that he could not.

If L wants to come back to the board, he's going to need to start making up for his history, and making things right with a lot of people. And he needs to do it without trying to get around his existing ban. I know that's going to be hard, but evading a ban of any length has always been a punishable offense. To end this on a lighter note, you know why Username got banned?

He got a 1 week ban for flaming. He tried to come back before it was up.
Then he tried to come back before THAT was up. Etc. etc. etc. When he'd logged a few years worth of ban time, we finally pulled the plug.

Speaking as someone who never had any personal problems with the guy, I honestly wouldn't have objected to his return had he started things out by being upfront about his identity and asking those he did have altercations with if bygones could be bygones.

Hell, even knowing that he didn't go about it that way, I don't have a strong opinion on the matter. My main concern is community morale (including that of staff).

If there are members who are already here and have actively been here who would be made uncomfortable, that forms the basis of my decision. The impression I've gotten so far is that a significant number of people do feel uncomfortable in this case due to the lack of a good faith approach to mending fences.

That doesn't necessarily mean L doesn't regret anything or wouldn't make a good faith effort. It just means the wrong seed was being planted for the desired result.

Cabaret said:

I think the dupe account was more the only way he could come back in rather than an unwillingness to apologise. AFAIK there really is no other way a banned person could come back. I think if a dialogue is opened with him and this is explained to him, he'd have a very mature response and probably would apologise - though I can't say that for sure obviously.

I think he should be given a change to apologise if that's what his coming back hinges on, I guess it's all about communication and how we best go about it within the confines of this platform.

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IIRC he's friends with tons of us on FB. He used to be on mine before I cleared out a lot non-irl friends from it etc. Maybe I'm forgetting something but I don't think it's tough at all for Scott to get in contact with several of the TLS members either through FB or Skype.

All things considered I've always considered L a good friend as far as online friendships go. He's a good guy when you're on his good side for sure. On his bad side? =/

I didn't even realize he made another dupe here. It's not surprising though, getting banned and extending the duration via dupes has been his calling card since the ACF days. It's hard to vouch that he has matured while he's doing things that got him in E-Trouble when he was a teenager.


If he really wanted to come back in earnest and make up for some stuff that happened he could have contacted anyone on FB, IRC , Skype or heck even just used the dupe account to only speak to staff and plead his case. To top it off he knows that he could have done that. That's literally what he has always been told every time he got banned from ACF till TLS and he started making dupes.

^Regarding that, the only staff member he has been in touch with was Yop, unless you count Mage who left staff a while ago and has been friendly with L for years. And unless Yop said "lol no" to him, that's not the case, but I'll let Yop speak to that when he's on.

And it's not that he should have tried to contact staff to have his ban lifted, it's that he should have approached the people he knows he followed around various boards trashing for years to make amends before/ as part of requesting to come back. That's a really important distinction. Saying "unban my account" to Yop (and I'll let Yop explain that part) is not the same as "listen I was a dick, I'm sorry, let's sort shit out and hopefully move past it" to all of the people who are apparently to this day uncomfortable.

The fact that I am amenable to even this much of an olive branch is hopefully an indication that I am personally no longer offended by his previous attitude towards me, and it's certainly not me he needs to make amends with. The only thing I honestly give a shit about is the comfort of members, and until the people who were targets actually say "I am comfortable with L coming back" I don't think there's any way to move forward.

SO... was he, like, just a general trolling jerk who would mouth off in threads? Because in all honestly, I can see that as not a huge deal, those people can change and it's mostly them just being abrasive.

Or did he abuse and specifically target people for sustained harassment? Because from my experience, that's a lot harder for that to change. I've known people who've hate stalked people across boards, apologized, got unbanned and went on to be on their best behavior... for a few months before switching targets and it happening again.

The second one Splintered. I know of two people specifically but there might be more.

Splintered said:

SO... was he, like, just a general trolling jerk who would mouth off in threads? Because in all honestly, I can see that as not a huge deal, those people can change and it's mostly them just being abrasive.

Or did he abuse and specifically target people for sustained harassment? Because from my experience, that's a lot harder for that to change. I've known people who've hate stalked people across boards, apologized, got unbanned and went on to be on their best behavior... for a few months before switching targets and it happening again.

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A mix of both consistently for like 10 years =/

There have been people who left our community because of him over the years and there is definitely at least 1 person who returned now that is much more comfy knowing he's perma banned.

Cabaret said:

The guy has made mistakes in the past, there is no denying that, but neither is his obvious desire to come back to TLS.

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So we should let him back in because "he really, really wants to"?

Given his behaviour on recent returns did not include any knobish behaviour

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Translation: Given that he didn't want to immediately give away who he is.

and given that he has a lot of friends on this site

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Being chummy with people should give someone a free pass?

are all adults and change, mellow, become better people over time

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We were all adults last time too - including him.

There are indeed those who want to return to cause trouble, Username no doubt and those which should have a restraining order on them, no need to name who there - I'm not advocating for them, they are assholes and obviously just want to cause trouble.

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L's offenses are far bigger than Username's.

But if someone genuinely wants to reconnect with old online mates, and in L's case, can only do so under a dupe account

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Facebook?

I could understand if we were all teens, and needed a firm hand but we're not

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Again, we weren't teens last time either. Most of us knew how to behave, yet he still acted the same way he always has.

and so imo should rework how this forum is run to reflect that. We're all getting old and some of us are even getting wise, we should adapt.

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Joe said:

We're all maturing and that should reflect in how this place is run.

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What I don't like with this argument is how apparently the responsibility to change should be on the forum.

WE should change. WE should adapt. Not a single word about how HE changed. How HE regrets anything.

I mean no offense but you're not making a very good case here.

His ban isn't held up because of pettiness. Thinking that imo reflects a willingness to ignore the behavior that earned that ban in the first place. The dude had plenty of chances to change, to mellow out or grow wiser.

What exactly is different this time? How much do you really change in two or three years?

It's cool that people are friends with him and obviously see a different side of his. But has anyone who is friends with him ever looked critically at how he behaved towards people who got on his bad side?

Like some others, I was not personally affected by any of L's behavior. I don't feel strongly about his presence on the board one way or the other. I can't tell if that means I shouldn't post (not affecting me) or I should post (less possibility of personal feelings getting in the way).

What I do know is this -- the only way to move forward after someone has done harm to another is for three things to take place: an acknowledgement of behavior, a sincere apology for said behavior, and a promise (that is kept) that such behavior will never be repeated. Without this, reconciliation is pointless.

Still, even after all that, you're treading a slippery slope here. Let this pass and what else shall follow? Perhaps there will be a relapse and he'll hurt the same (or other) folks again. Perhaps we'll start to trust all sorts of crazy folks. I don't know.

Again, I really have nothing personally against L. But like some others have said, the way he went about this certainly makes me feel wary.

I've known who L was as I've been here for a long time (and previously on ACF) and he has done some pretty harsh crap, but I don't think I was ever on the receiving end of his wrath (at least, I don't recall).

However, I have dealt with a former friend from somewhere else on the net who ended up pulling the constant 'arsehole troll' on me and would even start arguments specifically to piss me off and make snide remarks about stuff, before I finally pulled the plug on our friendship. He hadn't always been this way (in fact his sarcasm was more toned down in the beginning), but after some time, he started to change a lot and it just spiraled downward from there.

In the end, I can understand why some people would feel awkward and reluctant to lift his ban, but people can and do change with time and that's understandable too.

~ Raz

So I hummed and hawed about this during dinner and decided to post a little more detailed explanation of "the other side of things", considering I appear to be the only one who's experienced it.

As I said earlier, I've been on the receiving end of L's abuse for 3 years.. started back on FCF and continued on even here until I left. And again, I don't remember exactly how it all started, but it had to do with the company we kept, how I would keep getting into drama-spats with a friend of his, and his need to defend them.

To say that L was 'just a troll' is a bit of an understatement. His insults were never as plain as "lol u suk" or "gtfo and die" but elaborate and specific enough to be referring to me even when I wasn't in a thread. Most of the time, back on FCF, I just let it go. There were hardly any rules then and to try and enforce them just ran loose the dogs of war. But even after the shift of forums to TLS, he would still just belittle me for the sake of doing it. And the couple times I saw it, I'd report it or talk to Aaron who knew well of our history. I wouldn't try to provoke him, why would I? I personally held nothing against him, and if his friend wasn't here, I had no reason to hate him or get into confrontations with him. So whatever. But it was as if I just triggered something in him whenever we crossed paths; he had this innate ability and the want to hurt. And you know what, sometimes you encounter those people in life, and that's just the way it is.

But this isn't me trying to throw him under the bus. I know I have no clean record myself, but I also know that after lines are crossed, if you have any chance of encountering those people again, you should try to do the decent thing and be up front with them (either private or public) with an apology. Even after I left TLS and before coming back, I reached out to some via FB that I had hurt on FCF, because I know I did wrong.

Did L ever try to come forward to me and apologize for shit in the past? No. Possibly because he wanted to continue flying under the radar. And if that's how he wants to move forward, acting as if something didn't even happen, that's up to him. I can't force him to apologize for something if he feels no remorse over it.

I can't really provide an unbiased opinion here. I've known Scott for a long time and we've always been cool. He was always a loose cannon. Everyone that was close with him knew it was a part of who he was and accepted it. Those who didn't know him well usually ran into issues with him and he would unleash unholy hell on you.

Now, I'm all for giving people second chances. But, we have rules that need to be followed. "Don't be a dick." And, that was one rule that was broken incessantly.

Full disclosure: L contacted me via Skype a few days ago, about how the remake news rekindled his desire to get back on TLS. I suggested that he could probably make a dupe account if he wants to lurk in threads that he couldn't access as guest and nobody would be the wiser. I added that if he started posting and revealed who he was (I believe I used the phrase 'pull a Username', in which one, after just a few posts, makes it very clear who he is), it'd probably be a short stay. Which it did, because we got numerous reports from various sources about their suspicions.

Given my previous contact with L and my lack of being on the receiving side of his behaviour, and an accusation in staff of being chummy with the guy, I too haven't involved myself in dealing with the re-ban of his account.

L is a complicated case, and as far as I can remember (which is ten years back or even more by now), it's always been like the sentiments expressed in this thread - somehow his behaviour is so that some people suffer his abuse, whilst others go "yeah he's all right". He was probably banned a dozen times on ACF, followed by tl;dr "unban L!" debates which somehow always ended up being successful.

He contacted me again right before his dupe was banned yesterday, saying that he wanted to apologise and come clean and suchlike. He got banned at that point, but he's had several days of opportunities to apologise so I'd say chance passed. As others have said, if he wants to apologise for his actions, he can do so privately or via middle-men to the people he's harmed.

And as with some of the stalker characters we've had on the board, I'll leave it to those he terrorized for years etc about whether to forgive him and leave him back. It doesn't look good at all though. In this case I also think the "I think he's aight" / "I have no personal beef with him" / "that's just L"-sentiments are not valid reasons to unban someone, not when there's an other side going "He marked me as a pedophile" and "He terrorized me for years". The two can have a chat with each other if need be. Finally, the post he made before being banned last time was pretty much an "I'm leaving forever" statement, burning bridges like stuff. (it was removed though)