Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[JIMMY BROOKS: CRIPPLED VIRGIN]

Okay, maybe not, but considering the amount of information we've learned about the series, and the amount of insight that games like Dissidia has given on the characters of the franchise, I thought that maybe we could take a crack at a tier list of the heroes and villains. Just a few guidelines though to keep things well organized and to maintain topic flow.

1. The villains and the heroes both have their own separate lists. At least for now. This way, this gets rid of all WHO'S STRONGER CLOD OR SEFIROTH arguments at least until we organize both heroes/villains somewhat. Maybe we could actually get into that later into the topic, but for now, let's keep them separate.

2. No gameplay used as a basis of an argument. At least, not as a backbone to an argument. Sure, postulating Cloud's Omnislash into an approximation of his abilities are fine because it's consistent, but saying that Squall could beat Warrior of Light because it's way easier to get 9999 HP in FF8 is just dumb. Also using equipment that can be gained in a heroes respective games to form an argument is kinda dumb, too. Common sense, please.

3. All things considered. These tier lists are assuming the abilities that can be approximated based on the maximum what we see and generally know of that character. Try to keep a 'well he COULD IF HE WANTED TO AND HE HAD A DAY AND A HALF TO CHARGE UP' and 'UNREALIZED POTENTIAL' arguments to a reasonable minimum. However of course that means that we're all assuming that the protagonists/antagonists are at their bests. Of course you don't necessarily have to.

For the sake of familiarity, let's use the Dissidia lineup.

VILLAINS
Garland
Emperor
Cloud of Darkness
Golbez
ExDeath
Kefka
Sephiroth
Ultimecia
Kuja
Jecht

HEROES
Warrior of Light
Firion
Onion Knight
Cecil
Bartz
Terra
Cloud
Squall
Zidane
Tidus

Go!

[Dark and Divine]

I still have to work in my heroes list, but as for the villains:

1. Exdeath – I put Exdeath in this position because of his control of the Void and, later, his fusion with it, giving birth to Neo Exdeath and granting him the power to destroy all existence.

2. Ultimecia - She can control time to an extent and was able to achieve Time Compression, though TC itself was achieved with outside sources. Nevertheless, after transforming into her final form, she was able to slowly absorb all existence into herself


3. Next, we have Kuja, Sephiroth, Kefka and Jecht/Sin, who I consider to be around the same level:

Kuja - He gained enormous power after absorbing the souls in the Invincible and achieving his own Trance. His Trance ability, Ultima, was able to leave Terra largely destroyed in a short amount of time. In terms of raw destructive power, I would put him a little above the other three villains, due to not only Ultima’s power, but also due to its speed.

Sephiroth - He possess the most powerful spirit/will in the planet, allowing him to go beyond the laws of Nature. He was also able to corrupt the Lifestream itself and create his own, achieving to an extent, what he wanted to achieve in FFVII.

Though we’re familiar with his physical prowess, we don’t know Sephiroth’s true power, but if the Negative Lifestream is similar in power to the portion of Lifestream that Aerith used to destroy Meteor, then Sephiroth would possess enough power to destroy a small planetoid like Meteor. Using this power against the Planet would probably cause an enormous wound on it, 2 to 3 times bigger than the Northern Crater.

Nevertheless, the Negative Lifestream can be used in many different ways. Sephiroth was using it to corrupt the normal Lifestream and corrode away the planet, and he used it to erect a barrier around Midgar so that no one could interfere with his battle against Cloud. There’s also the Shadow Creepers and the SHM, who were spawned from the Negative Lifestream.

Kefka - He was able to absorb the power of the Warring Triad, becoming the God of Magic and providing him enough power to leave the entire planet in ruins. His Light of Judgement was very powerful, being able to destroy entire towns and leave scars in the planet itself.

But being the God of Magic, Kefka also had all the magic in the world in his hands, and he was able to erect an enormous tower to serve as his base. He probably also created all the monsters that populate Kefka’s tower.

Jecht – As Sin, he had access to the Giga Graviton, a spell that scarred the planet in such a way that the damage was visible from outer space. Sin was also able to spawn monsters from itself and he was able to create different kinds of barriers around himself.

Jecht himself possesses an incredible physical prowess, being able, at a time, to crack the floor with one step.

Ultimately, while Kuja has the upper hand in raw destructive power, the others have the upper hand in the tenacity and versatility of their powers. All in all, I consider them to be equals.


7. A tie between..

Emperor Mateus Palamecia – The Emperor has a spirit/will that rivals Sephiroth’s. After his death, he was able to take control of Hell and Heaven (taking in consideration Soul of Rebirth) and return much more powerful than before. He also possesses enormous magical power.

Cloud of Darkness - An embodiment of the Void, she/it was able to cause an earthquake that almost drew the Floating Continent to the surface world. Possesses the Particle Beam, wich she/it used to defeat the Warriors of Light.


9. Another tie between:

Garland - He is a very strong knight, maybe stronger physically than most heroes and villains, being able to slaughter several Summons and Omega itself.

Golbez - He’s a very powerful mage, possessing an array of high level spells. He’s also very strong physically, being able to survive almost unscathed from a Meteor spell.

[JIMMY BROOKS: CRIPPLED VIRGIN]

Great way to start the topic, DnD!

[Dark and Divine]

Ted Lange As Your Bartender wrote:

Great way to start the topic, DnD!

Thanks!

As for the heroes:

1. Terra – An Human/Esper hybrid, with enormous magical potential. She was able to incinerate 50 magitek soldiers in 3 minutes.

2. Zidane – Created with the purpose of causing mass destruction, as Garland's Angel of Death, Zidane is strong, agile and fast, but his true potential comes from his Trance ability.

3. Cecil – Wielding Darkness at first, and then becoming a Paladin, bathed in Light, Cecil is not only a very balanced knight, but he can also use white magic and a array of abilities of both Darkness and Light.

4. Warrior of Light – Another strong knight, but unlike Cecil, WoL only uses the Light element. Though he seems physically stronger than Cecil, the later still has the edge in special abilities. Nevertheless, WoL is a very balanced fighter and not one to take lightly.


5. Tie between:

Cloud – A balanced fighter with a significant physical prowess, possessing powerful attacks, specially his Onmislash ones, able to slaughter deities.

Squall – Not as strong as Cloud physically, but Squall’s faster. His speed allows him to deliver devastating combo attacks, like Lionheart, seemingly as powerful as Cloud’s Omnislash.


7. Another tie between:

Firion – Being like a one-man battalion, Firion’s expertise with several kinds of weapons puts all the others to shame, and he possesses a telekinetic link with his weapons, wich he uses to deliver powerful attacks, though he doesn’t have any other special ability beyond that.

Onion Knight – A young knight also bathed in Light. Though his physical attacks aren’t particularly powerful, he compensates this with his array of powerful magical abilities.


9. Yet another tie between:

Tidus – Though he lacks any kind of superhuman enhancement, the years he spent playing Blitzball granted him unparalleled agility and speed, which he uses to deliver devastating blows.

Bartz – He may not be as strong or as fast as the others, but he possesses the unique “Mime” ability, which provides him with an enormous potential, mimicking the abilities of others around him.

[JIMMY BROOKS: CRIPPLED VIRGIN]

No other thoughts?

[Cannon_Fodder]

Damn, I was going to post my own tier list for the heroes, but Dark and Divine beat me to it. Luckily, the list provided is great, but I still have some thoughts on it.

Dark and Divine wrote:

Thanks!

As for the heroes:

1. Terra – An Human/Esper hybrid, with enormous magical potential. She was able to incinerate 50 magitek soldiers in 3 minutes.

While I agree Terra is strong, I think number one should be saved for the Warrior of Light. I feel that based on what he accomplishes as well as when he accomplishes it says a lot about his strength. He slaughtered the 'ultimate' evil in Chaos, and did it before saving the world was in style. That, and all throughout Dissidia he seems to be presented as the stongest hero, not only physically but mentally as well.

2. Zidane – Created with the purpose of causing mass destruction, as Garland's Angel of Death, Zidane is strong, agile and fast, but his true potential comes from his Trance ability.

I would put Terra here, as she is obviously hella strong. I think we can all agree on that.

3. Cecil – Wielding Darkness at first, and then becoming a Paladin, bathed in Light, Cecil is not only a very balanced knight, but he can also use white magic and a array of abilities of both Darkness and Light.

I forgot how badass Cecil is, haha. I was going to give the number three spot to someone else, but after reading what you wrote I think Cecil deserves it more.

4. Warrior of Light – Another strong knight, but unlike Cecil, WoL only uses the Light element. Though he seems physically stronger than Cecil, the later still has the edge in special abilities. Nevertheless, WoL is a very balanced fighter and not one to take lightly.

Originally my number three, I think Squall belongs here. The man's a destined hero with years of military training and the ability to junction himself to the most powerful magic in the world to destroy his enemies. Would not want to fuck with him.

5. Tie between:

Cloud – A balanced fighter with a significant physical prowess, possessing powerful attacks, specially his Onmislash ones, able to slaughter deities.

Squall – Not as strong as Cloud physically, but Squall’s faster. His speed allows him to deliver devastating combo attacks, like Lionheart, seemingly as powerful as Cloud’s Omnislash.

I'm going to try to keep ties out of mine, so I'd give the number five spot to Zidane. You raise a good point with his powerful orgins as a destroyer of worlds, but potential is one thing; ability is another. Zidane has never had the chance to practice his destructive capabilities (luckily) so I'm hesitant to rate him too high.

Number six is Cloud. Physically, Cloud's almost unrivaled. He makes gravity his bitch, as well as many other physics laws, and just generally is built like a tank. Only downside is his mental strength, as that's far from optimal. He's much stronger at the end of ACC then he was before, but he's still taken down a couple pegs by that fact. Also, as he has missed many years of his life he could be considered in the same boat as Zidane.

7. Another tie between:

Firion – Being like a one-man battalion, Firion’s expertise with several kinds of weapons puts all the others to shame, and he possesses a telekinetic link with his weapons, wich he uses to deliver powerful attacks, though he doesn’t have any other special ability beyond that.

Onion Knight – A young knight also bathed in Light. Though his physical attacks aren’t particularly powerful, he compensates this with his array of powerful magical abilities.

Here's where things get tricky. I've never played either FFII or FFIII so I'm going on second hand sources here, but I feel Firion should be number seven. He skill with weapons is extremely impressive as you said, and as I was told, he can learn Ultima so that's an impressive feather in his cap.

Number eight, I feel, should be Bartz. He's chosen by the crystals which alone says alot about his strength. Also, as the son of a Dawn Warrior, he has the blood of a hero in his veins. Finally, he took down the Void. The fuckin' VOID. not bad I'd say.

9. Yet another tie between:

Tidus – Though he lacks any kind of superhuman enhancement, the years he spent playing Blitzball granted him unparalleled agility and speed, which he uses to deliver devastating blows.

Bartz – He may not be as strong or as fast as the others, but he possesses the unique “Mime” ability, which provides him with an enormous potential, mimicking the abilities of others around him.

Number nine is Onion Knight, placed here mainly because the crystals chose him and he saved the world. I don't know much else.

And finally....

Number ten: Tidus. While he's my second favourite hero of the entire series, I can't call him anything but the weakest. He's a formidable foe, just not compared to everyone else. He has impressive agility and strength and the ability to unleash some powerful overdrives, but his most heroic traits are based more around his personality and how he is able to bring about sweeping change to his world with a smile and unending determination. Plus he throws moogles.

To recap:
1: Warrior of Light (guy from the first game is first?)
2: Terra
3: Cecil
4: Squall
5: Zidane
6: Cloud
7: Firion
8: Bartz
9: Onion Knight
10: Tidus (guy from the tenth game is tenth? Huh?)

[Ryu]

Chaos/Garland, CoD, Exdeath, Ultimecia, Kuja, Mateus, Kefka,,Sephiroth, Golbez, Jecht.

Chaos is above it all, Garland can travel time and banish things to the rift, CoD is an existence destroying force in her own right, Exy could use the void, though later became controlled by it. Ultimecia either belongs up here or below Sephiroth, depending on whether we count her failure to achieve time compression in the ranking. Kuja destroyed an entire planet. Kefka was well on his way. Sephiroth was getting ready. They were all on the planetbust scales. Mateus CONQUERED HELL after DYING. Planetbust it's not, but awesome it is. Golbez is awesome, but he's not a final boss, so his personally demonstrated events aren't that awesome. Jecht is by personality, captain awesome, but I'm sad to say, his own power, not so spiffy, since he's the mutated vessel of another. Sin goes with Kefka. Zeromus, not sure, but he has the die and true power schtick going on.
The boss of TA goes around Kuja/Mateus level, (SPOILER)
due to his seeding of several planets with life and eventual destruction thereof.

Might do a hero ranking later, but it's more amorphous, due to their allies, so it's not always the same as the villian ranking.

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't see how anyone can deny Chaos/Garland as the strongest FF villain, considering he's the god of all villains, who threw not just FF1's universe, but all the other universes into chaos, and cosmically shattered them. That alone puts him above all others. No villain has that to their credit. In fact, including Chaos/Garland, totally skews the ranking since Chaos is so far above the villains, that all the others just end up looking insignificant. Chaos is the de facto boss of the bosses.

I'd also say there's a severe undercutting of Emperor Mateus here, considering the guy not only cheated death, but literally conquered Hell itself (and even Heaven), and became the Devil incarnate. The guy has an entire infernal legion at his beck and call, and was the first villain to transcend death through sheer will power, before it became cliche. I don't know how a failed, girly-man genome surpasses that.

I'd say the top five villains in terms of power and destruction would be

1.) Chaos/Garland (God of Destruction)
2.) ExDeath (Cosmic Annihilator )
3.) Ultimecia (Mistress of Time)
4.) Emperor Mateus (Ruler of Hell)
5.) Cloud of Darkness (Presider of the Void)

You really can't argue the Cloud of Darkness not being one of the strongest, seeing as how she too, is a cosmic entity of annihilation who's sole purpose is to send everything to the void. She's the oldest living villain of all. Almost akin to a natural disaster. The fact she was nigh invincible until the dark warriors assisted you with their power, speaks volumes to how unstoppable she is, once she wakes up and decides "lolz time to destroy nao!"

6.) Sephiroth (Cancer of Creation)
7.) Kefka (Deity of Devilry)
8.) Kuja (The Mortal Shinigami)
9.) Seymour (Willful Wraith)
10.) Zemus/Zeromus (Hatred Incarnate)

As for the next half, Sephiroth would be next, considering his power and overwhelming spirit energy...a spirit that's so powerful that it corrupts and contaminates life itself, and rejects the entire cycle of life. He ends up controlling it. He's like a tenacious cancer or tumor of the planet. And more than likely, he could do that to any planet he gets his soul in. He too is almost akin to a natural disaster now.

While I put Kefka below Sephiroth, to be honest, I'd put him almost equal to Sephiroth, considering how he too becomes a god-like figure, and given his unnatural, and destructive power, Sephiroth and him have a lot in common. They both absorbed a shit ton of power and transcended their existences, and end up throwing the entire world into chaos and despair. However, Kefka never beat death. He never was able to truly escape and reject the cycle of life and death as Sephiroth did, and almost literally become outside of it. So that's where Sephy edges him out.

Kuja's strong, and very dangerous. But he's also such a child. Clinging oh so tightly to mortality, and individuality, while deep down on the inside, he's afraid of death and losing who he is. He's tragic. Powerful since he absorbed all those souls from the Invincible. But he never transcended existence like Sephiroth did. Even with all that power, he too had to accept the cycle of life and die.

Jecht/Sin is...truly powerful. An imposing monster of unbelievable destruction and power. The thing is...truly a monster. But it doesn't quite have a mind at all. It's just...something akin to a natural disaster as well. An unthinking one. It just goes around wherever people gather and blows shit up. In terms of raw destructive power, its one of the most powerful things we've ever seen in FF. But while Jecht/Sin are the antagonist and threat Tidus and the others have to destroy and conquer, the actual evil mastermind that you have to deal with is Seymour.

And that's why I put Seymour on the list and not Jecht/Sin. Because Jecht/Sin really didn't have choice in terms of their actions. They were the slaves of Yu Yevon and the cycle of death he enacted. In terms of "villain," it'd be Seymour. And while I find Seymour interesting, his power doesn't quite impress compared to the others. As an unsent, he's certainly tenacious. As tenacious as say, Mateus, or Sephiroth. Unless he's sent, he's not going anywhere. He'll only come back stronger, and more pissed off. He's an incredible mage, and summoner, and can even use pyreflies to fashion creatures to serve him. But in terms of power, he's doesn't quite compare to the others. He was strong, but not say...Sephiroth, CoD, or Kefka strong.

And at the bottom, I put Zemus/Zeromus. And that's because we really didn't get to see what they could really do sadly. Zemus was a master Lunarian Mage, probably stronger than FuSoYa. He had the ability to mind control people. That's cool. When he became Zeromus, his power just exponentially grew. He was untouchable, was able to KO everyone with a single Meteor spell, and became one hulking, huge monster. But considering how he was killed right when he appeared, we...really don't know what he would've done had he escaped the confines of the Lunar Subterrane. So yeah, I really can't say.

I'm not gonna touch the heroes yet, since the villains are so much easier. But I'm not quite in agreement with the whole, "Warrior of Light is the strongest" pitch, because while he may be the leader of the heroes in Dissidia, that doesn't automatically mean he's the strongest. Not at all. He's just the leader. The FF heroes aren't a pack of wolves that only follow the "Alpha Male" here.

[OWA-2]

Dark and Divine wrote:

2. Ultimecia - She can control time to an extent and was able to achieve Time Compression, though TC itself was achieved with outside sources.

IIRC she needed "outside sources" only to go back in time(using the Junction Machine Ellone) and to go back even further(using Ellone herself). BUT when inside Adel's body in the further past, Ultimecia used her own power to start TC.

Mako Eyes wrote:

As for the next half, Sephiroth would be next, considering his power and overwhelming spirit energy...a spirit that's so powerful that it corrupts and contaminates life itself, and rejects the entire cycle of life. He ends up controlling it. He's like a tenacious cancer or tumor of the planet. And more than likely, he could do that to any planet he gets his soul in. He too is almost akin to a natural disaster now.

Sorry if I'm saying shit, but didn't he use Jenova-cells inside people's bodies to cause Geostigma in them, and use the disease to corrupt their souls and, consequently, the Lifestream itself?
I don't remember his soul alone being able to do that.

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm going to try and take a stab at the heroes now, but this is definitely going to be hard.

1.) Terra (Fantastic Phantasmal Force)
2.) Cloud (Mako Madman)
3.) Cecil (Paragon Paladin)
4.) Squall (Lionhearted Legionnaire)
5.) Warrior of Light (Beacon of Light)

So this is what I was able to come up with. The heroes of FF that stood out as exemplifying strength and power beyond the others.

Terra as an Esper hybrid was shown in FFVI to be a very powerful, and magically potent being. Being able to fry people in seconds, tear screaming through the sky at fast speeds covered in fur, and basically wield magic with ease, puts her as a powerful creature. She's like a living summon. Dissidia drills the point home too. She's just a very powerful creature, which is to be expected since she's also half Esper/Summon.

Cloud would be next, given how the FFVII and the Compilation showcase this guy as wielding a goddamn helicopter blade with one hand and having superhuman strength and abilities, that allow him to go head-to-head with Sephiroth. AC and ACC should answer any questions as to why Cloud would be on this list. When he limit breaks and moves, he lights up like Christmas tree, moves incredibly fast, and explodes like a bomb. The guy's like a Mako Reactor with legs. Couple that with the fact that he was able to go head-to-head with Terra and snap her out of her magic-induced madness, and that goes to show that the guy is definitely one of the big dogs in terms of innate, raw strength.

After this point...it gets a bit harder to quantify and rank. I put Cecil next because when it comes to wielding either light or darkness, he excelled at it. We sadly aren't quite given a tangible sense outside of battle of what he can do, but in terms of FFIV, we know he was one of the best Dark Knights ever, and as a Paladin in TAY, we see Cecil kicking major monster ass before the Maynad summons Bahamut. Dissidia further illustrates this by showing him being able to take on ExDeath and chase his ass off, when Golbez's life was at stake. That's pretty damn awesome.

I put Squall as fourth due to his power and abilities with as a SeeD with a gunblade, not to mention his attacks that almost rival Cloud's in terms of their sheer size, power, and over the top coolness. Also, the fact he was able to stand up to Ultimecia's Time Compression in Dissidia and thwart her twice, one-on-one, and deftly cut her down, is just a testament to his power.

Warrior of Light is then 5, and I put him in the "middle" because he seems to be mostly balanced in terms of everything. He seems to be the most rounded in terms of fighting, ability, and magic. Not quite over the top or anything like other heroes, but just a solid fighter who's intelligent, dedicated, and a responsible leader. His tenacity and dedication in Dissidia, searching for his crystal, is what stands out to me. But in terms of outright battle and ability, he just seems...in the middle.

The other heroes I see as more or less the same. I can't really...rank the others because they just fluctuate and have various pros and cons.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Villains:

1: Garland - Others have phrased it right, Garland is the strongest.
2: Cloud of Darkness - Its only job is to destroy, and with its capabilities its probably employee of the eternal age...
3: Exdeath - Harnesses the most destrucive force in his world, and while it consumes him as well, there is no denying he's powerful.
4: Sin - Halts the progress of civilization, kills countless people over the years, leaves everyone in blind fear.
5: The Emperor - His domination over heaven, hell, AND the earth is only one small step below the power of the other 'natural' villains. (Those who are part of life in their respective worlds)
6: Ultimecia - Compress. Everything. Only reason she's this low is the number of hoops that must be jumped through before she can achieve her goal.
7: Sephiroth - Overcame death, tries destroying the planet from the inside after his outward assault fails, immense will.
8: Kefka - God of magic, ravages world, could be considered on the same level as Sephiroth.
9: Kuja - Extreme power never fully realized, and even then it seems slightly less spectacular when compared to other candidates.
10: Zemus - While he is a powerful mage, that seems to be about all he has going for him. He is a threat to the world more through his manipulations than outright strength.

That seems like an alright list for the villains, though far from perfect.


@ Mako Eyes: So far your list seems good, but I can't really agree with Cloud and the Warrior of Light. As I said before I think WoL is very powerful, and while maybe saying number one might be a stretch, I think five is too low. Just because he doesn't have an over-the-top vehicle like ACC doesn't mean he's not powerful; he still killed Chaos. As for Cloud, he is crazy strong but to use ACC as evidence you have to remember that almost everyone in that movie had their own set of crazy skills. Cloud was the strongest there, but that doesn't make him the strongest overall. You have to consider the nature of the source material. I'd also love to hear more thoughts on the heroes as well.

[Smooth Criminal]

But the void Cloud of Darkness desires and works for...is false.

She can't be superior to ExDeath.

If we were to include Sin on the list as an actual villain (which I don't consider him to be, since he's just a mindless, pyrefly construct/monster) Sin would end up being number 4, easily due to the sheer power it has. It's so powerful that it can rend the planet and disturb the atmosphere. It can vaporize existence with Giga Graviton. It literally reduces you to nothing but particles. The thing is death incarnate. It could probably destroy the planet if it truly wanted to, as shown by cutscenes in FFX. Including that...thing....on the list skews the results even more. The only thing that would be able to stop Sin would either be time, the Void, or Chaos itself.

You could argue that Sephiroth could maybe (and this is a big maybe) corrupt and control Sin over time as Spirit Energy, but in terms of raw power, no other villain would be able to touch it in brute force combat.

EDIT: On a rather interesting note, I just noticed something about my top list, if you include Sin. Each of the villains controls a power that's one of the most powerful and absolute forces of the universe.

Chaos/Garland/ExDeath = Space

Ultimecia = Time

Sin = Gravity

Time, Space, and Gravity. The fundamental forces of the universe. That pretty much explains right there why they're the strongest.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Mako Eyes wrote:

But the void Cloud of Darkness desires and works for...is false.

She can't be superior to ExDeath.

Oh, my bad. Ignore that part then

If we were to include Sin on the list as an actual villain (which I don't consider him to be, since he's just a mindless, pyrefly construct/monster) Sin would end up being number 4, easily due to the sheer power it has. It's so powerful that it can rend the planet and disturb the atmosphere. It can vaporize existence with Giga Graviton. It literally reduces you to nothing but particles. The thing is death incarnate. It could probably destroy the planet if it truly wanted to, as shown by cutscenes in FFX. Including that...thing....on the list skews the results even more. The only thing that would be able to stop Sin would either be time, the Void, or Chaos itself.

You could argue that Sephiroth could maybe (and this is a big maybe) corrupt and control Sin over time as Spirit Energy, but in terms of raw power, no other villain would be able to touch it in brute force combat.

The point is that other villains do control the Void/Chaos/Time Compression. I don't see how its unfair to include Sin in this when the other villains all have their own sources of power.

[Smooth Criminal]

Cannon_Fodder wrote:

Oh, my bad. Ignore that part then

No, I'm fucking with you. I'm quoting ExDeath, whenever he faces off against Cloud of Darkness. He tells her "The Void YOU desire..is false." Basically a, "Nyah nyah, my Void's better than yours!"

The point is that other villains do control the Void/Chaos/Time Compression. I don't see how its unfair to include Sin in this when the other villains all have their own sources of power.

Because Sin/Yu Yevon is an unthinking, uncontrollable monster. It's not really evil, or villainous. It's not anything but an unthinking destroyer. Destruction is its nature. That's all it was created to do. It's an artificial pyrefly construct. Basically, an out of control weapon made by Yu Yevon.

If I started a tank and let it loose on down town and it just rolled over everything and stuff, would that tank, be a villain?

It's the same thing with Sin. It's just an out of control pyreform weapon.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Mako Eyes wrote:

No, I'm fucking with you. I'm quoting ExDeath, whenever he faces off against Cloud of Darkness. He tells her "The Void YOU desire..is false." Basically a, "Nyah nyah, my Void's better than yours!"

Uhhhhh.... I knew that. Who said I didn't?

Because Sin/Yu Yevon is an unthinking, uncontrollable monster. It's not really evil, or villainous. It's not anything but an unthinking destroyer. Destruction is its nature. That's all it was created to do. It's an artificial pyrefly construct. Basically, an out of control weapon made by Yu Yevon.

If I started a tank and let it loose on down town and it just rolled over everything and stuff, would that tank, be a villain?

It's the same thing with Sin. It's just an out of control pyreform weapon.

Good analogy, I see what you mean. I think we both agree Sin is amazingly powerful, but since it doesn't really count as a weapon, its not eligible for this tier list.