The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

Right. The HA scene would be canon for sure considering all the quotes that say that 'mutual feelings' were discussed in that scene. We know they didn't discuss 'mutual feelings' in the LA. Therefore, canon version is HA.

However, Anastar is trying to claim mutual feelings also happen in the LA scene, though since we all know that doesn't happen she's just making things up.

Specifically, she's trying to turn an 'Apathetic conversation' the only thing mentioned about the low version, and turn that into 'Mutual Romantic disinterest' where disinterest doesn't mean you're not romantically interested in someone, you just decide not to pursue them despite the interest.
She's using as currently her only reason for why this might be so is if Cloud romantically loved Aerith and Tifa could sense that. Given that she's using her desired conclusion as supporting evidence against a different opinion, she really REALLY needs to get onto establishing that Cloud does love Aerith in the LA version, since there's also Barret and Yuffie available for him to be macking on.
She also needs to establish that the 'Complex feelings' are jealousy, and once she establishes they are jealousy, they are jealousy as a result of Cloud being romantically inclined towards Aerith and not, for an example, Aerith's ability to be forthright and open and to actually make the move, etc. etc.
Given that Anastar's stance currently rejects that Tifa's 'Beloved-er' (I coined this phrase, and I am going to use it at often as I like, and I like using it) can be Cloud because he was not explicitly stated as such, she is going to have a hard time establishing these things as well without looking hypocritical.
She is also going to have an ass of a time establishing that 'woman' is Aerith, since who woman is also never explicitly stated, either.

 

[Marle]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification guys! I'm less confused now.

One thing though:
Personally, I think Tifa is jealous of Aerith for many reasons. It makes her human.

She goes through the first disc watching the one man she's grown to love being flirted with by another very beautiful girl who is a lot better at expressing her feelings. Tifa is very protective of Cloud and it stems from the fact that she loves him. So yeah, she's jealous of that.

Also, she's jealous of the bond that Cloud and Aerith start building. She feels like she's losing him and it hurts. She wants that so badly with him, but it takes her longer to establish it whereas Aerith just comes in and dominates where Tifa lacks. So yes, she's jealous of them, afraid that they will have what she wants.

Now, after the LS sequence, Tifa finds out that Cloud has feelings for her, too and the HA HW scene happens and everything is okay.

Then in CoT, Cloud is all blushing around her and wanting her in a way he didn't have her before. All is well and good until Cloud starts his guilt fest.

Then things go wrong. And it was triggered by Aerith's memory. Tifa starts losing the man she loves all over again and there's nothing she can do about it. He starts distancing himself, he treats her like dirt, they start arguing and their relationship goes a bit sour. And Tifa hasn't forgotten the impact Aerith had on Cloud. Isn't it possible that she feels inadequate? That maybe, Aerith might have been the better choice for him after all? And to be jealous of that is normal. Especially since she experienced these feelings in the game itself.

Isn't it entirely normal to wonder if her lover still loves her? When he's visiting the grave of a friend that Tifa knew could have been much more had she lived.

I see it as good characterization. Tifa, as strong as she may be, is insecure and it's a flaw of hers. She's jealous of Aerith, jealous of the fact that she may be better for Cloud, jealous of the fact that she could be so forward, that she was able to so quickly gain Cloud's affection.

Now, even if it's true or not, isn't it possible that Tifa thinks Cloud may still have lingering feelings for Aerith and that is why he's becoming so distant? Especially since she doesn't know he has geostigma until AC/C.

And couldn't Tifa also have been wrong in her assumption?

Ugh. This is so opinionated, sorry guys. mods don't hurt me

 

[Madame Mayor]

Now, even if it's true or not, isn't it possible that Tifa thinks Cloud may still have lingering feelings for Aerith and that is why he's becoming so distant? Especially since she doesn't know he has geostigma until AC/C.

It certainly could, but it would mean that Tifa believes Cloud had/has feelings for Aeris. Remember her original jealousy is with how open Aeris is, not necessarily that she's winning over Cloud.

However, the feelings she does know Cloud has towards Aeris is that he blames himself for her death. Feelings would get very complicated if you think your dead friend is causing your lover to feel he doesn't deserve his family and go off on his own to die.

 

[Marle]

I think Tifa is doubting herself, though. I mean, she got pretty jealous when Cait Sith made that untrue prediction about Cloud and Aerith's future and there is a quote saying how she's jealous of them building their own world together right? I cba to find it. But I know it's been mentioned here before. :T

Even though Aerith is dead, she seems to still have this strong hold on Cloud and it worries Tifa. I think she was a bit worried that Aerith was winning Cloud over in ways she couldn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it actually happened in that way.

I think it's all in Tifa's head and it's because she's such an insecure character.

 

[Tifabelle]

And I think included with "complicated feelings" is all that plus the fact that she loves Aerith, and she probably feels her own level of guilt and mourning over her death.

Prior to the LS sequence, Tifa seemed to have no idea of Cloud's feelings for her. So exactly what's been said is that "complicated feelings" also includes jealousy over the fact that Aerith is bolder than Tifa who is unable to express her feelings and doubts to Cloud.

And even into AC/C, where Cloud is so consumed with guilt over Aerith's death, Tifa's jealousy would include the fact that Cloud is so hung up on his failures (specifically Aerith who she also loves), that from where Tifa is sitting, it appears as though he's forgetting his family so he can be overwhelmed by his thoughts of Aerith.

That's what makes it all "complicated". Tifa's feelings are complicated because of Tifa, not because of Cloud.

Oh and just to add, jealousy doesn't always default to romantic feelings. Siblings can be jealous of each other because one gets more parental attention than another, etc etc.

 

[Marle]

That's what makes it all "complicated". Tifa's feelings are complicated because of Tifa, not because of Cloud.

^This. I wrote four paragraphs trying to get to this point and all you did was sum it up in a perfect sentence.

Whatever composes all of Tifa's 'complicated' feelings, they are ultimately due to her own insecurities and characteristics. They are not Cloud's.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think Tifa is doubting herself, though. I mean, she got pretty jealous when Cait Sith made that untrue prediction about Cloud and Aerith's future and there is a quote saying how she's jealous of them building their own world together right? I cba to find it. But I know it's been mentioned here before. :T

No. There actually is not. Specifically, it never says she's JEALOUS. It says she's Peevish, and that the feelings are complex, but it never says she's Jealous.
Also, the word you're looking for is 'falsified.'

Compilation Check

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

「Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.


[FFVII] Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

[AC] Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.

[AC] Tifa, smiling towards Aerith’s presence. Cherishing Aerith is Tifa’s honest feeling.

Now, I'm not saying they can't be jealousy. I'm saying they're never called such.
And I'm also saying- purely to make a point- that we can't be SURE they're jealousy. Or lust for Aerith. Or irritation at the way she pronounces Tifa's name.

 

[Anastar]

NOTE: If anyone wants me to respond to their posts, I won't respond unless you send me your post in PM. I posted that long ago, but I guess some of you don't know about it.

Tres

Anastar. Hi. I'm Tres. You might remember me from such posts as the one where you got called a cunt, and numerous other instances of correcting your lies.

Tres. I'm Anastar. I remember you accusing me of lies, yes. Thing is, those "lies" are all in your imagination. Hey, if you think I've lied to you - it's your problem, not mine.

You might also remember me from that last private message I sent you, where I specifically asked that you wait until you could reply to everything I've said to you all at once -- so that we wouldn't have to continue with what basically amounts to sending messages backwards and forwards across time to one another.

Hmmm... let's look at what you actually said:

By the way, take your time responding to these and the three previous posts I sent. There's no need to rush, and I'd rather you just wait to get to them all at once. ~Tres, PM on Oct. 27

I see nothing specifically saying that I should respond to your PMs all at once. To me, your PM says not to rush because I can respond to it all at once if I want to.

In any case, since you've disregarded that request and have taken your dishonest debating tactics to absurd new depths

If you see it that way, you see it that way. Frankly, I think the situation is the reverse. The only poor and/or dishonest debating tactics I see in this thread is on the Cloti side of the fence. But whatever...

Anastar, why is it that whenever one line of argument from you is shown to be invalid you retreat into another previously invalidated line?

Probably because I've yet to see any argument from me invalidated. I've seen a few things I've said argued against - but invalidated? No.

Mostly, however, I just see insults thrown at me in an apparent effort to evade responding to me.

So, now we're back to the relationship charts from the U20 Character guide again.

Seeing as how I haven't brought it up to you before, I don't see why not.

You're going to scream from the rooftops that the "childhood friends" description on FFVII's chart tells us all there is to know about Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

No, actually I was going to ask why they're being described as "childhood friends" when you're claiming that SE has validated them as a couple?

You're going to insist that data circa early game must apply to late- and post-game. You'll also pretend that because they both have "Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania" in their titles, the Character and Scenario guides came out at the same time (they didn't; the first came out in January 2008, the second in April of that year).

Meanwhile, you're going to refuse to justify why Cloud and Tifa are the sole exception to a standard that doesn't have to be upheld by other couples, both within and outside FFVII (even amongst other main protagonists). You won't explain why Cid and Shiera can get by with a description that he treats her poorly, yet can still be a couple. You won't explain why Dagger and Zidane can get by with a description that they're important people to one another, yet can still be a couple. And you definitely won't explain why Lulu and Wakka can get by with the same "childhood friends" description that Cloud and Tifa got.

And meanwhile, you're going to avoid the question and retreat into supposed parallels with other couples from other Final Fantasies.

There's one big, major difference between CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, LuluxWakka, and Cloud and Tifa. The difference is that CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, and LuluxWakka have been confirmed as couples on a non-optional basis. This is not true of Cloud and Tifa, and that's why they are the supposed "exception".

No, you'll focus on a single word from a commercial from 1997 that was designed to sell you something. You won't even explain what the "hate that always was" is supposed to be, or to whom it belongs (Cloud didn't always hate Seph, and Seph didn't always hate the world, so we're clearly dealing with hyperbole). You won't explain how FFVIII was about Squall trying to win Rinoa's heart, when the opposite is the case.

Focus on the commercial? I don't think so. After all, I gave you a whole essay about supporting evidence for CloudxAerith:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay.htm

That essay is 6,980 words long. The total amount of words in that essay about the commercial is 247. That means that there are 6,733 words in the essay about evidence other than the commercial. So is the commercial a focus? Hardly.

Plus, you're trying to get me to defend CloudxAerith, which I consider simply another evasion tactic from you. I've already said I'm here to discuss ONE thing:

The TLS article about "This Just In: The Love Triangle Debate - Over" is nothing but your opinion. There is no confirmation from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple of FFVII. The FTOIL page is saying that CloudxTifa as well as CloudxAerith are optional, which is why BOTH women are shown on the FTOIL page with Cloud and why BOTH are specified as optional.

I know you disagree - but I say it again because you should NOT be claiming that your opinion is fact when it has not been validated by SE.

And you certainly won't acknowledge that the notion of "a love that can never be" is antithetical to the very claim you wish to substantiate -- that Cloud and Aerith not only could (i.e. did) have a romantic relationship while she was alive, but that this relationship can (i.e. does) continue after her death. Your focus on screenshots of Cloud and Aerith while ignoring the surrounding words began long before the "For the One I Love" page came along.

And you seem to ignore the fact that I do not care what you think about CloudxAerith. I've never claimed that CloudxAerith are canon. You are free to your opinion about CloudxAerith.

You are also free to your opinion about CloudxTifa. However, you should recognize it as opinion instead of proclaiming it as fact. SE is the only one who can say which couple is canon, and they have yet to do so.

You'll just quote mine hito to hell and gone. insist -- despite more than one later explanation from him of what he meant -- that he said something other than what he actually said. Even though that would make it factually inaccurate. That it's something different than what all of us are saying. And, of course, refuse to identify what the consequences of that would be for the "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files.

The "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files only says that Tifa is LIKE a mother and LIKE a koibito. She's not really a mother, is she? She's just LIKE one. So, she's not really a sweetheart, either.

Furthermore, there's nothing even hinting that it has anything to do with Cloud. Cloud's name isn't used in the sentence. You're just assuming it's in reference to Cloud.

You'll insist that the counterintuitive meaning you derived from a hyperbolic, misleading advertisement produced 14 years ago by the marketing department of another company's foreign subsidiary is a more insightful indication of the intentions of FFVII's developers than a score of statements to have come since from SE and the game's developers.

Keep ignoring the fact that I provided plenty of other examples from FFVII's developers that provide evidence for CloudxAerith.

And you'll do all of this without even recognizing that the position you're putting forward is inconsistent with the position of neutrality and open-ended optionality that you claim to hold.

All because I'm saying that SE has left the LT up to interpretation, and that SE has yet to declare either Cloti or Clerith canon. All because I dare to disagree with your opinion. Go figure.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not even going to bother to PM you or reply to anything else in your post. In fact, keeping it short and succinct will be easier, for the both of us. Because the rest is irrelevant.

Your entire post falls apart based on the fact that:

The FTOIL page never states Cloud and Tifa's high affection scene is optional. Period.

You're lying. Just about everyone in this thread has called you out on this, along with the mysterious low affection Highwind scene that somehow communicates mutual feelings of disinterest. I don't know if you just can't read what's contrary to your world view, or what. But any person with an understanding of english grammar, syntax and language can tell you that the words on that page make no mention of Cloud and Tifa's scene being optional. It's just not there. I don't know if you think you see it there, or what. But it isn't.

That is a blatant fabrication on your part. You are lying, either intentionally or unintentionally. Period. You repeating this falsehood will not make it anymore true. It only magnifies just how dishonest your claim is.

So I'm not even going to argue anything else. I just felt the need to emphasize just how much you are telling a bold faced lie right here. Because you've done this before. And it's getting obnoxious at this point.

 

[Celes Chere]

NOTE: If anyone wants me to respond to their posts, I won't respond unless you send me your post in PM. I posted that long ago, but I guess some of you don't know about it.

We do, most of us are just too lazy to do that. Especially me. Why would I go out of my way to PM a response for the LTD? I just don't care enough lol. I know you have computer troubles or whatever but it's obvious you CAN read what we're saying, you just choose not to. I'm not going to cater to someone that thinks TLS is shit after only seeing this thread and will only be PMed responses from the LTD thread in order to respond. It's just sort of ridiculous.

 

[Zee]

okay this is probably my fault for skimming through all the tl;dr but

why do we need a page telling us the HA highwind scene is optional again?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The HA Highwind scene is optional in gameplay but that is not what we're talking about or discussing. In terms of narrative canon, the high affection Highwind scene is the one that plays out. As shown numerous times.

The FTOIL page does not state anything about its optionality. It says that, THAT version of the scene is the one that takes place within the narrative of FFVII.

 

[Zee]

Oh

the story works no matter which scene you got tbh it's not like there's a huge difference between the two scenes

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well there kinda is.

The Low Affection one doesn't communicate these feelings that the creators have told us were communicated on this night. While the High Affection one, does.

That's the whole point.

 

[Zee]

Tifa seemed to communicate them just fine, Cloud's just more hesitant

either way AC rehashes the communication problem they supposedly solved in that scene so idk it doesn't seem like it matters very much what you got.

 

[Marle]

Out of curiosity, can anyone post up the differences between the two? Like, the exact script? What changes besides Tifa not saying "Words aren't the only way..." line?

Zee, I like the point you brought up. I'm curious though by what you mean when you say Cloud's more hesitant? Which is probably why I need an actual script that isn't coming from biased websites because that's all I find on google

 

[Celes Chere]

What changes besides Tifa not saying "Words aren't the only way..." line?

Cloud doesn't hear Tifa's heart calling to him, otherwise idk what else is different.

 

[Octo]

Compare and contrast

Red text box hurts my eyes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

NOTE: If anyone wants me to respond to their posts, I won't respond unless you send me your post in PM. I posted that long ago, but I guess some of you don't know about it.

Oh, we KNOW about it. But we also know your reasons for requesting it amount to nonsense, since A: you have absolutely no problem responding to posts on your own forum B: You don't fully respond to the posts that ARE PMed to you, and C: Even what you do respond to, you don't really read.

Tres

Tres. I'm Anastar. I remember you accusing me of lies, yes. Thing is, those "lies" are all in your imagination. Hey, if you think I've lied to you - it's your problem, not mine.

No, it's still YOUR PROBLEM. Because it's not just him who's caught you lying. You might want to consider, y'know, proving you're not lying, quote mining, and distorting the record.

Hmmm... let's look at what you actually said:

By the way, take your time responding to these and the three previous posts I sent. There's no need to rush, and I'd rather you just wait to get to them all at once. ~Tres, PM on Oct. 27

I see nothing specifically saying that I should respond to your PMs all at once. To me, your PM says not to rush because I can respond to it all at once if I want to.

And his PM doesn't say that you can do it if you want to. That phrase doesn't appear. His PM says he'd prefer you waited and do it all at once.
He's saying NOW he didn't want you to wait.
So you're revealing yourself to be inconsiderate of the requests of others.
Why, again, should we be considerate of yours if you won't extend that same courtesy?

If you see it that way, you see it that way. Frankly, I think the situation is the reverse. The only poor and/or dishonest debating tactics I see in this thread is on the Cloti side of the fence. But whatever...

If you see poor and dishonest debating tactics, please, do call them out and explain why they're poor.
Explain as completely as you can why they're poor. Do it here, in this thread. Name names and use specific examples. I even DARE you.

Probably because I've yet to see any argument from me invalidated. I've seen a few things I've said argued against - but invalidated? No.

"There's no door in that picture."
"There's a TV in Cloud's Office."
"Chair."
If you don't think these- especially that first one- are invalidated, what are you smoking, and have you considered not smoking it?

Mostly, however, I just see insults thrown at me in an apparent effort to evade responding to me.

You know what I see, Anastar? You claiming that you're being insulted in an effort to evade responding to you.
I'll even cop to the insults and call you three more, but I will be DAMNED if I'll let you say we are insulting you INSTEAD of responding to you. We might be insulting you, but the record will show we are RESPONDING as well.

Seeing as how I haven't brought it up to you before, I don't see why not.

Once again, Anastar, we ARE capable of cross reference.

No, actually I was going to ask why they're being described as "childhood friends" when you're claiming that SE has validated them as a couple?

Same Reason Wakka and Lulu are.

And meanwhile, you're going to avoid the question and retreat into supposed parallels with other couples from other Final Fantasies.

He's not avoiding the question at all. His point was to show the question is INVALID.

There's one big, major difference between CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, LuluxWakka, and Cloud and Tifa. The difference is that CidxShera, DaggerxZidane, and LuluxWakka have been confirmed as couples on a non-optional basis. This is not true of Cloud and Tifa, and that's why they are the supposed "exception".

However, the point does remain- even setting aside whether or not Cloud and Tifa are non-optionally confirmed or not- that even confirmed couples are referred to in terms other than couple-hood in these flowcharts, including using the same phrase Cloud and Tifa are referred to by. That they are refered to by this phrase no more prevents their being canon than it does Wakka and Lulu.

Focus on the commercial? I don't think so. After all, I gave you a whole essay about supporting evidence for CloudxAerith:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay.htm

An essay which contains very little evidence and a whole hell of a lot of 'Maybes, ifs, coulds', a bevy of quotemines, quotes divorced from contexts, meanings plucked from thin air, etc.

I still demand that you do me the simple fucking courtesy of reading my response.

That essay is 6,980 words long. The total amount of words in that essay about the commercial is 247. That means that there are 6,733 words in the essay about evidence other than the commercial. So is the commercial a focus? Hardly.

In this thread, you have used that commercial as evidence on multiple occasions, across several weeks. I believe it's come up unbidden on no less than three occasions. Yes, it's a focus for you.

Plus, you're trying to get me to defend CloudxAerith, which I consider simply another evasion tactic from you.

"Asking me to support my own position is an evasion tactic"
Nope, can't even be civil about this one- that's fucking stupid.

I've already said I'm here to discuss ONE thing:

The TLS article about "This Just In: The Love Triangle Debate - Over" is nothing but your opinion. There is no confirmation from SE that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple of FFVII. The FTOIL page is saying that CloudxTifa as well as CloudxAerith are optional, which is why BOTH women are shown on the FTOIL page with Cloud and why BOTH are specified as optional.

Because they are not specified as optional. Because you yourself HAVE admitted that Listed Deviations can have Canon Outcomes AND that these Canon Outcomes can be Specified in Ultimanias.
When it was pointed out to you THAT you agreed to this, you added more Ad Hoc conditions onto the argument.

I know you disagree - but I say it again because you should NOT be claiming that your opinion is fact when it has not been validated by SE.

It's not our opinion. The page says Mutual romantic confirmation happens. It says nothing as to which version it happens in. It merely says IT HAPPENS. P232 also says IT HAPPENS. This is what you're failing to grasp.

And you seem to ignore the fact that I do not care what you think about CloudxAerith. I've never claimed that CloudxAerith are canon. You are free to your opinion about CloudxAerith.

And now you have lied to an extent that you cannot wriggle out of. Anastar, do you think we've forgotten the past 15 years of this debate overnight?
Incidentally, this IS an evasion of Tres's point- If a love can never be- IT CAN NEVER BE- thus the option for C/A is impossible, therefore your claims of a relationship at any point are completely impossible.
And then it just turns into an 'Anyone but Tifa!' argument again.

You are also free to your opinion about CloudxTifa. However, you should recognize it as opinion instead of proclaiming it as fact. SE is the only one who can say which couple is canon, and they have yet to do so.

They have, though. Not explicitly enough for you, perhaps, but through their words, actions, and considerations in shaping the post FF7 narrative, they showed Cloud and Tifa together.
And that's how they showed all the other canon couples before the FTOIL page. Being together.
There's only one marriage among heroes in all FFdom. The rest are merely 'together.' That's how S-E shows it.

The "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files only says that Tifa is LIKE a mother and LIKE a koibito. She's not really a mother, is she? She's just LIKE one. So, she's not really a sweetheart, either.

If the Japanese was not three distinct clauses, this MIGHT possibly apply. If the english didn't also say Tifa was 'ally in battle' it also might apply.
How is Tifa 'like an ally in battle' Anastar?
For the record, the Japanese simply says tifa IS a koibito/ beloved/ someone's sweetheart.

Furthermore, there's nothing even hinting that it has anything to do with Cloud. Cloud's name isn't used in the sentence. You're just assuming it's in reference to Cloud.

And you're 'assuming' COLW has anything to do with Aerith. Aerith's name isn't used in the novella.

Keep ignoring the fact that I provided plenty of other examples from FFVII's developers that provide evidence for CloudxAerith.

Except not. You posted things that you extruded a glimmer of Clerith possibility from then waved around like a flag.

All because I'm saying that SE has left the LT up to interpretation, and that SE has yet to declare either Cloti or Clerith canon. All because I dare to disagree with your opinion. Go figure.

You're only saying that recently. And you're only saying it because you know you've 'lost,' and you don't want anyone else to 'win'

Cloud hears Tifa's heart call to him in both versions, Celes. What's different is that Tifa's lines get Cloud talking and trying to speak up about his own feelings, after which the 'words aren't the only way' line comes up.

But really, it's pointless.
Yes, HAHW is optional in the game.
So is shadow's death, Tidus's ressurection, Terra rejoining the party, etc. etc. etc.
We're still told what the fuck happened in all cases. Optionality in game does not prevent canonicity in narrative.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those changes, while minor, change the entire nature of the conversation. The LA and HA version of that scene do alter the nature and foundation of what is Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[Marle]

Okay! After watching them, I can conclude that there were definitely different tones and a lot of significant changes in the LA HW compared to the HA HW scene.

An exchange of mutual feelings only happens in the HA version. The LA version has neither character really telling each other anything. :T Actually, Cloud's a total dick in the LA HW scene and it just doesn't mesh right with the fact in CoT he tells Tifa he has her differently and that he lives with her and raises kids with her later, too.

It's just...like SE stated, such an apathetic scene and doesn't go over very well in the entire context of things whatsoever.

Still, it's good that you brought it up, Zee.

 

[Octo]

Actually, given that there is a difficulty in finding transcripts of both versions, does anyone think it would be worth typing up a transcript of each scene side by side? I'd be happy to do it if people want it.

 

[Zealkin]

Wait how does mutual disinterest work? And why in the world would Tifa live with someone who just dumped her?

And even if it is optional how did the only canon result the La scene?

Why would there be quotes talking about the scene with no mention of the option involved?

And why after sharing mutual disinterest would Cloud immediately after say such heart warming things to Tifa?

Her determination towards the last fight was resolved in Disc 3, however she was not able to contain her fear. On the flight deck on the airship she talks to Cloud and asks him “Say it’s going to be okay”.　Even though she sounded lost, there was Tifa who acted a bit childish, and when Cloud answered “It’s going to be okay”, it was almost as though both their heart connected and it was very heart warming. By the way the conversation they had just now, relates back to what Tifa said a while ago (FF7 Ultimania Omega)

Not only that but he's only opened his heart to Tifa, when does he do this if he basically just leaves her hanging in this scene?

 

[Zee]

It's funny cause like

the way I see it the LA version kinda makes more sense with the compilation?? Ok hear me out: if FF7 stayed put as a standalone game I'd say it 1000% makes more sense in the narrative for the HA to be "canon" but

With CoT/AC obviously their communication problem is something they still have to work on, which is something the LA scene hints at that the HA scene doesn't quite do.

When it comes down to it tho in a narrative sense either scene could really work, because you either have a Cloud that can't express himself which foreshadows the problems occurring in CoT or you have Cloud jumping into the relationship when he's still got demons to sort out

but imo the HA scene as canon just makes it look like really lazy rehashed writing which

i guess describes what the compilation is anyway....

Either way when it comes down to it CoT just skips over all that and starts them off at the point in which they're starting a new life so whatever you got can still be canon for you so long as we're all on the same page at the start of OTWTAS /shrug

 

[Theozilla]

It's funny cause like

the way I see it the LA version kinda makes more sense with the compilation?? Ok hear me out: if FF7 stayed put as a standalone game I'd say it 1000% makes more sense in the narrative for the HA to be "canon" but

With CoT/AC obviously their communication problem is something they still have to work on, which is something the LA scene hints at that the HA scene doesn't quite do.

When it comes down to it tho in a narrative sense either scene could really work, because you either have a Cloud that can't express himself which foreshadows the problems occurring in CoT or you have Cloud jumping into the relationship when he's still got demons to sort out

but imo the HA scene as canon just makes it look like really lazy rehashed writing which

i guess describes what the compilation is anyway....

Either way when it comes down to it CoT just skips over all that and starts them off at the point in which they're starting a new life so whatever you got can still be canon for you so long as we're all on the same page at the start of OTWTAS /shrug

I still don't see how Cloud not having good communication skills in AC/C and CoT does not fit with the HA Highwind scene, if anything the HA version makes more logical sense because it shows explicitly that Cloud has trouble expressing his emotions. Also don't forget the mindset that Cloud and Tifa are in during the Highwind scene is very different compared to AC/C, because for them it is their potentially last night alive.
Also don't forget that Cloud's guilt did not stem from him not having a relationship, rather as his character profile states, the happier he became with his family the more guilty he felt.