Instead, the text copies have Barret and Marlene with Tifa and Cloud after the group splits up. Barret gets drunk one night, then comes up with the idea of the three of them opening a business - a bar where people can escape the sadness of their lives with food and drink and friends. Barret specifically says the three of them:
The next day, Barret looked serious and said, “How about we start a business and sell this alcohol?”
.....
The three of them made preparations. They decided to build their new business in the new town of Edge that was north of Midgar.
.....
All the people that Barret and Cloud had helped before gathered together. They transported all the materials that would be used to build parts of the store such as the walls and pillars.
Barret shouted out his orders while Cloud went around correcting them in a low voice. Tifa, on the other hand, learned how to make Corel’s alcohol and improved it so that it was better to drink. She also thought of the food she could put on their menu, using the steady supply of ingredients they could use. Marlene was like a mascot to the people who helped build their store.
.....
It looks to me like Barret's original plan is to run the bar with them. We hear nothing different while the place is being built. Tifa even wonders at one point if Barret plans on being the bouncer or something.
A few days more and they might be able to open the new bar, Cloud said. Barret asked what they were going to do about the name.
.....
The first day of Seventh Heaven’s opening was a great success.
......
Barret was sipping his wine in a corner. Maybe he was planning to be the bouncer.
There's nothing about Barret leaving yet - looks to me like he's planning to stay.
The very first paragraph of Barret's novella has him leave after helping Cloud and Tifa make their place, as mentioned. He was not planning on staying. That he never said what he was going to do in the new bar and grill is actually an indication of this in addition to what his own novella says.
Nothing's been said about the place being Cloud and Tifa's place, either. It's always referred to as "their business", and sounds like the business is Cloud's, Tifa's, and Barret's business. There's nothing about it being a home.
Again, Case of Barret. Additionally 'the family of three' 'the family of four' 'Cloud's family' and 'the family they [Cloud and Tifa] were forming in Edge'
Now, why is Tifa disturbed at Barret's words about leaving if she knew he was going to leave all along? Why is Tifa talking about taking off to settling her past (like Barret) if the plan is to live here with Cloud and build a family?
Why is Tifa upset? Because Barret didn't tell them.
Tifa isn't talking about going on a journey. She's talking about settling her past. Slight difference.
Tifa even asks Cloud if he tried to stop Barret. Why would Tifa want to know if Cloud tried to stop Barret if Tifa knew all along that Barret was going to leave?
Also notice that Cloud says that Barret would just say that the Seventh Heaven is Tifa's place - not Cloud and Tifa's place.
OTOH, Barret himself does say it's Cloud and Tifa's place. Their home, even.
Also notice that it says that Marlene had been sleeping with Tifa. Sounds to me like the girls were sharing a room - not Cloud and Tifa.
I keep saying this, but a child sleeping with a woman does not make any man she might be sleeping with leave the bed and sleep in another room.
This isn't evidence either way.
So I'm not sure where you get the idea that Barret was building a place for Cloud and Tifa, or that Barret wasn't originally planning to stay. Plus, Barret says he's going on a journey to settle his past. A "journey" implies that he will be back someday - which is another reason I think Barret is part of the family. I think Barret still plans to return once he has "settled his past".
Barret has never included himself or been included in the nuclear family of the 7th heaven.
As for your remaining question:
Since the original plan was to have Barret living there, too, why not? It was Barret, Cloud, and Tifa with no place to go. The original plan was to run the business together, according to Barret. Barret wanted to build a place for the business, and they made it into a place like the old Seventh Heaven where a whole group of people use to live.
Tifa's surprised that Barret wants to leave, and in fact, says she wants to go "settle her past", too. So where's any idea of just Cloud and Tifa shacking up together without Barret being there, too?
Case of Barrett. Where the narration reveals that to Barret, it was Cloud and Tifa's home he was building. Not his.
Plus, Cloud says this in Case of Tifa (Revised):
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.
Probably? Why is Cloud saying "probably" if his only plan is to live with Tifa?
Because even living together, he might not be able to remind her of how she was.
Nothing about the blushing, there? Or is this another 'he could be blushing for any reason other than romance' situation?
In the LA or the HA version?
I was talking here about the LA version. You wanted to know how Cloud and Tifa could confirm that they are mutually disinterested in a relationship if SE says that Tifa loves Cloud. I replied that it's possible for someone to realize that it would be a mistake to start a relationship with someone even though you're attracted to that person. That would qualify as Tifa being disinterested in a relationship.
I'd like to notice, for the record, that the goalposts have shifted from 'mutual romantic disinterest to 'mutual disinterest in a relationship,' neither of which is actually supported at any point by text. It is ENTIRELY Anastar's view, without evidenciary support, based on an unfounded premise, and a premise which is also her desired conclusion for the whole of the argument.
But I went on to say that Tifa may still be hoping that someday things will change. So no, she's still not interested in a relationship NOW - especially when she sees that Cloud is still in love with Aerith. It pretty much says that in Tifa's profile:
In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
......
[/I]AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
Holy hell, STOP QUOTE MINING. And Yes, THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING. You've left out that the 'reason' spoken of is that Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death and is acting self destructive as a result of that. You're misrepresenting the situation by leaving out the fuller quote.
So she may be hoping that things change, and that Cloud will fall in love with her someday. When and IF Cloud falls in love with her someday, then she'd be willing to give a relationship with him a try. But not until that happens.
That means she IS interested in a relationship. She WANTS that to happen, ASAP. That's not even relationship disinterest, much less romantic disinterest. But keep shifting those goalposts.
That would also explain why she asks if Cloud loves her in CoT.
So where's the 'I don't want to be in a relationship' then?
I already explained that in an earlier post. I'm not going to bother digging it up, but here's the concept:
Tifa's affection level goes up when Cloud is nice to her. Tifa's affection level goes down when Cloud isn't nice to her.
This is wrong.
Tifa's AV goes up and down for entirely arbitrary reasons, for entirely arbitrary values. Likewise Barret and Yuffie's values, which must also be included if we're being consistent, ALSO rise for arbitrary values. In fact, Yuffie's AV rises fastest in her joining sequence, in which you are rude and dismissive to her.
When Cloud is nice to Tifa, then his affection for her goes up. That happens in RL, doesn't it? When you have good interactions with someone, you get to like them more. When Cloud isn't nice to Tifa, then his affection level for her goes down. Again, that happens in RL - you act nasty to someone when you don't like them. When Cloud acts nasty to Tifa, her affection goes down.
When does Cloud act 'nasty' to Tifa, much less in a situation affecting the AV? Hell, the closest that I can think of- saying 'we have to help Aerith' when when she's Corneo's selection improves Tifa's AV, where being concerned over Tifa reduces the AV.
Also, are you saying that Cloud pushes the wrong barrel in the church because he doesn't like Aerith? Because that's what your argument has as a result.
So yes, the affection level is mutual for this reason.
Yes, it is neutral - because neither of them are giving a definite answer here. I interpreted what they said to fit the situation I had described. Neither creator ever said that my interpretation is correct. If they ever say that my interpretation is correct, then you can say they're not being neutral.
So now you're relying on 'They didn't explicitly call the way I see these quotes wrong' as your defense? And like Tres said, how does it make your interpretation of those quotes neutral?
Well, you're the one deciding that interpretation makes her weak. I never said it made her weak. If she's waiting around hoping that Cloud will get over Aerith someday, then it actually does make her strong. And it certainly doesn't make her clingy, either.
Oh, I see now.
Guys, I get the standard for if Tifa's clingy or not.
If she and Cloud are seen as being in a relationship, she's totally clingy.
If she and Cloud aren't, she totally isn't.
That's the only way to reconcile everything Anastar's said on this subject over the years, and probably last week if I bothered to look around her forum.
Actually, yes, it does IF you can see how much emotional strength it takes to do that.
I don't see it as weak.
You don't see it as weak to pine away endlessly for something that can never happen?
Then again, you are a post-mortem Clerith.
Yes - in fact, I already did. I'm talking about this quote that Quex brought up before, and I answered her about it:
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.
By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.
Okay, first of all... look at the last sentence:
Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.
Tifa was called out to the well by Cloud. Tifa called out to Cloud at the beginning of the Lifestream event. He did not call out to Tifa.
Actually, yes he did. His very heart called out to her. BOTH versions of the highwind scene tell us he did!
Therefore, the last sentence is talking about Tifa being clueless about Cloud's feelings at the well at the time of the Promise.
Now, the sentence before that:
By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.
The last sentence says that Tifa was clueless about Cloud's feelings at the well at the time of the Promise. Therefore, the sentence before that is talking about Cloud informing her during the Lifestream event about his feelings for her at the well at the time of the Promise.
No. It's saying Cloud WAS HOLDING the feelings he had at the time of the promise when he told her about them.
"Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream."
Okay, what feelings are being discussed here?
1) Young Cloud has revealed that he had a crush on Tifa when he invited her out to the well.
2) Tifa says she looked for pictures of him in the newspaper because he was going to join SOLDIER.
3) Lifestream Cloud says to tell Current Cloud about looking in the papers for him later because Current Cloud will PROBABLY be happy to know that.
By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream.
So what did Cloud reveal to Tifa? He revealed that he had a crush on her when he was a kid. That paragraph is talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa as a kid.
Now, Lifestream Cloud says that Current Cloud will PROBABLY be happy to know the Tifa looked for pictures of him in the newspapers. If this statement is supposed to mean that current Cloud is in love with Tifa, then why does it say probably? It's much more likely that he'll probably be happy to find out that his strategy worked - Young Cloud got Young Tifa to notice him by leaving to join SOLDIER.
That's not 'more likely' at all, unless you're seeing Cloud as a bit of an asshole who knows his strategy worked without caring that the woman is now crushing on him too.
Because Cloud getting his memory back hinged on Cloud believing that he really grew up in Nibelheim. Cloud believing that he really grew up in Nibelheim was proven to Cloud by both he and Tifa remembering things from their childhood - such as his crush on her, such as Cloud wanting to be part of her group of friends, and such as Cloud getting blamed for letting Tifa fall from the bridge. Remembering all that helped Cloud remember what really happened during the Nibelheim event.
But none of that is NARRATIVELY REQUIRED to be put in. One does not need to include Cloud's crush on Tifa as part of Cloud's very identity if they do not want to emphasize it.
Also, the Lifestream event did NOT reveal that Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa as a kid. It only revealed that Cloud was a kid with a crush on Tifa, same as other boys in town. Childhood crushes are not love.
Even if you think that it doesn't count as 'love', it's still a romantic inclination towards Tifa that he held up to the Nibelheim sequence, and which he was said to be holding during the lifestream sequence.
There are several quotes which say both Cloud and Tifa were holding feelings for each other that they became aware of during that sequence.
Anastar, there's a reason she wanted '50 words or less.' She wanted to, in simply, newly phrased terms, to give a concise summary of the evidence you think indicates the pairing. Not your Multi thousans page wordpile amounting to nothing.
I've been discussing it at length here in this thread, but to sum it up as briefly as possible:
1) Cloud's love for both girls is optional. That's established on the FTOIL page.
This is a falsehood. A falsehood you repeat again and again. Neither text of the FTOIL page NOR the pages linked t establish this idea.
2) Page 232 of the 20th AU says that there are two versions of the Highwind scene that are dependent on Tifa's affection level for Cloud.
Which no one- except you back when you insisted there were three- denies.
3) SE has specified that there is a Low Affection version of the HW scene as well as a High Affection version.
And?
4) SE has never said that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon.
They've never actually EVER said 'X is canon.' where X is anything. You'll find that apart from Lucasfilm, most companies don't bother with the term or the idea of a 'canon,' preferring to instead deal in 'official' and 'narratives.'
5) SE has also given evidence that Cloud can love Aerith. I gave a whole list of examples that people here won't accept. (Which is understandable - after all, I don't accept
their evidence, either.
)
Your evidence for 'Cloud can love Aerith' tends to also work to show Cloud loves Barret, Yuffie, and Zack, using the same logic.
SE specifies that romantic intentions are expressed
only in the High Affection version. For example, here:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
They've also said that Cloud and Tifa confirm those feelings for each other in the course of the narrative, including on p232 as well. They've ALSO said that the feelings that are actually confirmed in the course of the narrative are romantic.
You keep refusing to admit it, but P232 TELLS US Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings without words. That's what HAPPENS. This uses the same wording at the FTOIL page.
If this only happens in the HAHW scene, then congratulations, that's the scene that happens.
"
If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."
~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO
Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe.
On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy.
~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega
The FFVII UO doesn't even specify that the feelings are love, since it only says "strong emotions". However, the point is that SE makes it quite clear that mutual feelings of love are displayed between Cloud and Tifa in the High Affection version only.
And then they say that Cloud and Tifa display and confirm feelings, period. That's what happens in the narrative.
We're also told that the LOW Highwind scene is short and apathetic. As in it lacks feelings.
You've got all the dots, you just refuse to connect them.
As a side note, I say that the FTOIL page makes it quite clear that the feelings are optional, since both the pictures of the HW scene and the Clerith Date scene are labeled with page numbers where the deviations are discussed.
See page 232 at the top of the picture? That leads to this page:
Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.
~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
The top of the Clerith date picture also lists a page number where it's discussed that Cloud can go on the date with 4 different characters.
The FTOIL page says that as well. So, THE PAGE ITSELF Says Cloud can go on the date with four people. The FTOIL page simply stresses that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings without words, information ALSO contained on p232.
Point is, the Clerith date picture and the HW scene picture are the only two scenes on the FTOIL page labeled as having deviations.
And as constantly mentioned, having a deviation DOES NOT mean there's no official outcome.
The HAHW scene is listed one of the four most impressive scenes in the game.
It's the one constantly highlighted by Square and Square Enix. The one time the Low version gets notice actually gives us the information that makes it the one that cannot have happened.
Cloud is the only character from a Final Fantasy who is pictured with two different women on the FTOIL page. IF the HA HW scene is canon and IF Cloti is canon, there is absolutely no reason to include the Date scene picture on the page or a picture of Cloud with Aerith.
Yes there is. Because the date scene is a scene of a ROMANTIC CONFESSION. Cloud's fucking clueless, but he's BEING CONFESSED TO.
Like I keep saying, you know who's NOT on that page?
Edgar/Gilbar and Anna, Yang and his Wife, Cid and Edea, Laguna and Raine, Irvine and Selphie, Zell and Library girl, Freya and Fratley, Amarant and Lani, and quite interestingly, not Wakka and Lulu.
All of them actualize couples. None of them with really notable confession scenes.
And I bring all THEM up because Steiner and Beatrix ARE on the page and they DID have a notable confession.
The Clerith date, the Cosmo Canyon campfire scene where Cloud tells Aerith that he's there for her, Aerith manifesting in Cloud's dream when she leaves for the Forgotten City, Cloud sensing Aerith's presence in the Forgotten City when no one else can, the wedding prediction by Cait Sith, Cloud saying that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land, the hand reach scene (in both FFVII and AC/ACC), Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephy asks him in AC/ACC what he cherishes most... and more.
And more?
So, chronologically, we have 'Cloud tells Aerith- who feels alone- that he, no, EVERYONE is there. She's still alone. He's totally missed the point.'
We have the noted as unreliable Cait Sith predicting a bright future for Cloud and Aerith. Not their wedding. Cloud at this point is entirely blase. No reaction at all.
We have her date scene where he is UTTERLY oblivious.
We have Aerith contacting Cloud.
We have Cloud being able to sense Aerith AND SEPHIROTH in the forgotten capitol. Now, which of those does Cloud have an actual, factual, non speculative link to? Oh, Sephiroth, that's right.
We have a hand, in light, reaching out towards Cloud, before being replaced with Tifa's hand, with Cloud rushing and Saving Tifa's life in the nick of time.
We've got Cloud telling Tifa he thinks that it's possible to meet 'her' in the lifestream. He then proceeds, instead of going into the lifestream, to leave, then tell Tifa he intends to have her by his side from that day forward.
We have Aerith giving Cloud a boost in combat to kill a dragon.
And we have Cloud thinking of Aerith, then Tifa, the kids, Tifa and the kids, and at the crescendo, ZACK! This is simple filmic tricks. You never bury the lead and start with the most important thing and go down from there. You, if you do want to rank things, build towards climax working upwards from the least towards the most. It's the very concept of top 10 lists. You save the best for last. Anyways, Afterwards Cloud says 'There's not a thing I don't cherish.' He's not playing Sephy's game.
I also say that koibito in CoLWhite can be translated as "sweetheart, lover" or "boyfriend":
Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~Case of Lifestream White
It CAN. But it's out and outwrong to call him a boyfriend or lover. Cloud and Aerith were never dating. He can't be a boyfriend or a lover. It didn't happen. He can be her beloved or sweetheart.
Beloved is by far the best option there.
Only on an optional basis, which has been confirmed by SE. (See quotes above)
EVEN IF true, that's more than C/A ever got.
No, the feelings that Cloud and Tifa discussed during the Lifestream event were their past feelings, not their current feelings. I went into that yesterday in detail in my post to Tres. I'd recopy it here, but it was pretty long.
And you were wrong yesterday. Those were feelings they were holding. Not that that they had held in the past.
You can find the post here:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...ss+question+first,+place+Case+Tifa#post377895
For another thing, there would be no need for Cloud and Tifa to confirm their feelings during the HA HW scene if they had already done so during the Lifestream event.
There's awareness, and there's confirmation. They realize in LS, they confirm and act on in HW.
I disagree, but again - I spoke about that at length in my post to Ariadne (Tres) yesterday, so please see that post for my answer:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...ss+question+first,+place+Case+Tifa#post377895
Sorry, no. You haven't been here long, so you haven't seen my discussions of the LA scene yet. However, "Low Affection" does
not mean that Cloud and Tifa hate each other. They are in fact good friends whether you get the HA or LA version. What the LA version means is that they have no romantic interest in one another.
'No romantic interest' to be defined as fits her mood at this exact moment.
And SE has said that Aerith lives in Cloud's heart:
It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital.
~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion
Screenshot: [URL]http://clerith.heliohost.org/ACNet.gif
Okay, 1. Aerith has been said to live on the hearts of ALL her friends. That's in her U10 profile.
2. You're trying to use hearsay of a partly translated magazine as evidence. Not even the magazine page itself, but hearsay of what the images and random text said.
Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version
Please provide a scan of the manual, please.
Again, I discussed this at length in an earlier post. I believe it was in response to Clarky Cat:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/sho...deration+resorting+flames+insults.#post377428
And I do not agree that Cloud and Tifa's feelings were rekindled during the Lifestream event. The only feelings discussed were Cloud's crush on Tifa as a kid. Again, I discussed that at length in my post to Ariadne (Tres) yesterday and linked to it above.
And those are feelings with Cloud WAS HOLDING in the lifestream, feelings which are narratively unnecessary for determining who Cloud really is, but are narratively important.
I can basically say the same thing to you. IF Cloud and Tifa truly love one another non-optionally, then why haven't we heard them express it to one another? Why haven't we seen a kiss between them? Why is the HA HW scene only provided on an optional basis?
For the same reason Tidus's resurrection and Shadow's staying alive are 'optional.' Sometimes, you have to work for the good result, for the official outcome.
IF SE wanted to make Cloti the canon couple of the game, then all they had to do was make the HA HW scene non-optional, and actually show a kiss or an "I love you" between Cloud and Tifa sometime during the scene or afterwards. (Of course, the same applies to Cloud and Aerith - that's why I don't think either couple is canon.
Anastar, You know and I know that you don't actually believe that.
I know that because I CAN READ what you argue here and elsewhere.
And you do refuse to admit that we're told, even with the deviation, what actually happened under the highwind. That there is an option not to go with the official outcome does not change the official outcome any more than choosing not to get Yuffie or Vincent changes their joining.
I know you insist that they haven't declared 'which version happened' but they have. In all but the most explicit terms, they have.
They've said that when feelings are shared, they are 'of desire.
They've said that in one version of the scene, the conversation is short and lacks feeling.
They've said feelings are mutually confimed with out words, period.
They've also said romantic feelings are confirmed without words, period, but let's leave that aside.
Sorry - my computer's too old to watch anything on youtube easily. *blush*
I'm calling BS on this one.
There's no way you can't run youtube because of your computer.
"Platform: Windows 2000 or higher with latest updates installed
Processor: 500MHz or faster
RAM: 128MB or more
Video Card: at least 64MB of video memory
Sound Card: at least 16-bit"
That's ALL you need to have youtube run. An operating system less than a decade old, and RAM and processor speeds that are easily eclipsed by any computer sold in like the last 15 years.
Your internet might be slow- and seriously, get cable. It costs barely any more than 56K for an orders of magnitude speed increase- but that's not your computer.
Also, given that it makes your posts nigh unreadable at times, and since you have SPECIFICALLY complained about not being able to read posts, PLEASE stop coloring quotes in dark blue and different fonts.
)
after all)
, which means "undoubtedly," "surely" and "certainly." Here's the line in Japanese, starting at "Thanks, Tifa":
