The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cloud sensing Aerith and Sephiroth is actually very important, he knew that she was in danger at this point, and the fact that she already had contact with his mind might have made it easier to find her that way.

Added to that, it's as likely -- perhaps even more so -- that he could sense Aerith because of his link to Sephiroth. Maybe even because Seph was making him sense her. Seph knew she was there and wanted Cloud to find her so that he could force Cloud to kill her.

 

[Strangelove]

Okay, Hito sorry I just realized you weren't asking for a scan. I misread your post, my bad

Also, I'm curious Hito, since we often see the "But it's not official in japan. If it's not official in Japan and they're still arguing about it, how can it really be canon?" What did they say made C/T Official? Was it koibito? Can you provide some links to Japanese fans saying this? I had a few a long time ago but not really anymore, though I could look for them again. Also, have Japanese fans EVER said C/A was official?

There's a couple of things that people used to back it up, but Nomura's 'koibito' statement was a big thing, since people took it to mean "Tifa is Cloud's ~koibito~".

As for C/A fans, you did have ones who said it was official, using basically most of the same reasoning/proof as fans in the West.

The notion that was brought up long ago that everyone in Japan gets along and agrees C/A was the true couple is nonsense, since C/A and C/T fans acted like such dicks to each other than everyone else hates them.

 

[Anastar]

I'll finish answering Zealkin's questions first:

Zealkin

This all seems very confusing, so Tifa knows she will be rejected because she knows Cloud and Aerith are together and decides to deny her feelings again? Why does Tifa even live with Cloud?

I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.

It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.

Now, why would Tifa live with him? First of all, they ARE good friends. Second, she has noplace else to go. Third, she thinks Barret's going to live with them, so she's thinking it will be like the old Avalanche at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Fourth, she's hoping there's a chance that Cloud will grow to love her.

That's an interesting perspective, but CoT was said to have a lot of relationship problems between the two of them, and Tifa snapping probably had to do with the fact that she and the rest of her friends were all trying to move on, it seems kind of unfair to her that Cloud is wallowing when it was so hard for her and the other to move on themselves.

And this situation would be a good reason for relationship problems between the two of them.

As for her snapping at him being because Cloud is wallowing when the others try to move on - that's a possible interpretation, of course. But my interpretation is just as possible.

Can I see a quote indicating the scene went in this direction or something?

Which scene? The LA scene or the Tifa snapping scene?

If you mean the Tifa snapping scene, there's nothing about either interpretation. If you mean the LA scene, then:

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Look at the meaning of apathetic:

apathetic - adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.

Synonyms 1. unfeeling, impassive, cool. 2. uninterested, unconcerned.
- Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic

So the LA version shows they're not interested in each other romantically. Cloud, because he's still in love with Aerith. Tifa, because she knows it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now.

Because if that's what went down, why even put Cloud and Tifa on the FTOIL page in the first place?

Because the FTOIL page says it's optional for Cloud to love Tifa. The page number at the top of the HW picture leads to a paragraph about how the conversation between Cloud and Tifa diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.

Hmm the first quote is about Tifa trying to move on from the past herself, and how she still is guilty about it, and how the film doesn't really go too much in depth about it(It's all about Cloud afterall)

The second talks about her strong character, and how this is allowing her to move on, which invariably raises the question, would a strong woman let herself be emotionally conflicted by a man like how you're describing?

Sorry, but I'm not sure where those quotes came from - I assume they're from someone else's post? I think that person's commenting on a page from the Reunion File's, but I'd like to know which page.

It's been said a few times, but Clouds feelings aren't optional

But I've also given you quotes where SE says that Cloud's feelings ARE optional:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." ~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Before the Final Battle:
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. ~page 201, FFVII Ultimania Omega

and the quote I provided earlier about them communicating their feelings is not optional

They communicated feelings in both the LA and HA versions of the HW scene. The feelings in the LA scene were feelings of friendship only and/or disinterest in a romantic relationship, while the feelings between them in the HA scene are romantic. If SE just says they "communicated feelings", that doesn't tell us what kind of feelings - so it can easily apply to both versions.

nor is it talking about past feelings, like you said Tifa and Cloud didn't know each other that long in their childhood, and Tifa's feelings did not develop until later on. So the feelings are speaking of the ones they hold presently.

I think you're talking here about the Lifestream event again? "Nor is it talking about past feelings" - if you look at the Lifestream event, Cloud and Tifa are clearly talking about past feelings at that time.

Cloud "I only used to look up at it [Tifa's window] from outside."
Tifa "After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
(She holds her face in her hands.)
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing." "I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER?"
....
Cloud "That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth." "If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might..."
...
"If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......"

Now, Cloud's feelings are clearly how Cloud felt in Nibelheim as a child. The FFVII UO also specifies that Tifa didn't have any interest in Cloud until he said he was going to try to join SOLDIER:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she learned that he was going to try to become a SOLDIER. There were other boys who called Tifa out to the well, too. There were other boys writing her love letters, too - one of those letters is on her desk in her room when you visit Nibelheim:

Cloud "I read it..." "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..."
....
"And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?"

So Cloud wasn't the only boy with a crush on Tifa. The only thing that got her interested in Cloud was him going off to join SOLDIER.

Hmm that's weird, why would she continue to reach out for a possible relationship, like you said she might be doing when she snapped at Cloud?

I didn't say she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she snapped at Cloud. I said she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she asked if he wanted to talk after finding that delivery order from Elmyra to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. And that wasn't the only example - there would be many opportunities for her to reach out while she was living with him in the same house.

Why not drop it if she knows he's in love with another girl?

Most likely because the other girl is dead. Cloud and Tifa have a strong friendship, so she'd have reason to hope it would grow into something more.

In fact, Aerith being dead is one reason that Cloti's have said for a long time that Cloud wouldn't be in love with Aerith and that he would move on, etc. Thing is, feelings like that are able to continue after death - just look at Yuna's feelings for Tidus. Just look at Barret's feeling for his dead wife. Just look at Vincent's feelings for Lucrecia.

She's supposed to be strong I think she would back off for good if this were the case. Not only that but her feelings extend past the game so this seems kind of out of character for Tifa.

Doesn't seem OOC for Tifa at all to me. Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

Tres

Okay, I'm going to address your last question first, because I see no place in Case of Tifa where it "specifies that Barret helped build Cloud and Tifa's home rather than his, Cloud and Tifa's home." Unless this is something added to the Audiobooks, which I haven't listened to - it's nowhere in the text copies I've read online.

That was a typo on my part, sorry. I meant to say Case of Barret.

Second line of Barret's story in the English version says "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home ..." (i.e. Cloud and Tifa's home). The second line of Barret's story in the Japanese version says the same thing: "バレットはティファとクラウドの家造りを手伝った後 ...."

Ownership of the home is attributed to Tifa and Cloud ("ティファとクラウドの家"), but not Barret.

In the first place,"their home" can grammatically mean "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's home". Barret can easily be part of "their", especially since the story is written in third person.

In the second place, he may be calling it "Cloud and Tifa's home" because that's where Cloud and Tifa are living. Case of Tifa makes it very obvious that Barret's planning to live there with them while he's helping to build it. Plus, Case of Tifa shows that it was all Barret's idea to start a business together with Cloud and Tifa, which is why the house was built. Barret was planning to stay - Case of Barret makes it clear that the only reason he left was to find redemption for his sins.

Being with Marlene gave him peace of mind; he felt guilty for putting off action just one more day. He knew he had to leave, even if he had no purpose. Put some space between him and his heart's crutch, bear himself to the wilds. This was a "quick-fix" departure.. ~Case of Barret

He wanted to put space between himself and Marlene because she is his "heart's crutch". He didn't think he could find redemption with Marlene at his side.

Why is Tifa talking about taking off to settling her past (like Barret) if the plan is to live here with Cloud and build a family?

Is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past? Ultimately, she seeks redemption right there by -- as Barret bid her to do -- trying to prove she could give, not just take.

Maybe so, but Barret had to point that out to Tifa. In Case of Tifa, we see that Tifa was thinking of taking off to settle her sins, too, before Barret said that to her.

Why does Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place", too, if it's supposed to be Cloud and Tifa's place?

If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because -- as you pointed out -- she was surprised Barret left. Since Cloud seemed to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, she probably had concerns about how well he would adapt to a normal life as well.

And if Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, it could be because Cloud has reasons for leaving, too. However, my original question remains - why would Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place"? If this is supposed to be "Cloud and Tifa's place", then she shouldn't even be wondering whether Cloud thinks of it as Tifa's place alone.

Nonetheless, the narrative does call it Cloud and Tifa's home, so that's what it was.

After Barret left. What was it before Barret left? Was Barret staying at "Cloud and Tifa's home", or was the Seventh Heaven "Cloud, Barret, and Tifa's home" before Barret left on a journey to settle his sins?

Also notice that it says that Marlene had been sleeping with Tifa. Sounds to me like the girls were sharing a room - not Cloud and Tifa.

Yes, for at least that first week after Seventh Heaven was opened Marlene slept with Tifa; presumably as they had been doing while they were homeless. That doesn't seem out of the ordinary, though. Marlene was still a small child who had been through many changes and traumatic events. You wouldn't shove her off to her own room immediately.

Okay, but what about after Barret left? Do the girls continue sharing a room until Denzel arrives?

So I'm not sure where you get the idea that Barret was building a place for Cloud and Tifa, or that Barret wasn't originally planning to stay. Plus, Barret says he's going on a journey to settle his past. A "journey" implies that he will be back someday - which is another reason I think Barret is part of the family. I think Barret still plans to return once he has "settled his past".

Well, you can now see where I get the idea that Barret was building a place for Cloud and Tifa, and never intended to stay with them. His own story calls it theirs.

But Barret may be calling it Cloud and Tifa's place simply because that's where they are living at that time. Case of Tifa shows that Barret was originally planning to stay and run a business with Cloud and Tifa. If he had stayed, the Seventh Heaven would most likely be "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's place".

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though.

That doesn't entail that Barret's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven when he returns, either.

As for him being part of the nuclear family, he's not been described as such, so we can't assume he is.

Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.

Why do they specifically choose to live together, though, rather than as neighbors in their own adjacent houses?

Since the original plan was to have Barret living there, too, why not? It was Barret, Cloud, and Tifa with no place to go. The original plan was to run the business together, according to Barret. Barret wanted to build a place for the business, and they made it into a place like the old Seventh Heaven where a whole group of people use to live.

That's a fair enough response, I suppose, at least for their initial arrangements. What about after Barret had gone?

Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.

So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.

So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?

And you seem to forget that I'm saying this COULD be happening as easily as your idea of their relationship COULD be happening. Personally, I think it's up to interpretation, and that either interpretation is possible.

Plus, Cloud says this in Case of Tifa (Revised):

“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

Probably? Why is Cloud saying "probably" if his only plan is to live with Tifa?

Probably because he's bashful.

In any case, he had already just told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward and that he knew his new life could succeed because he had her. It's definite that his plan was to live with her.

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then? It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.

Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too. Tifa said she was thinking about leaving and resolving her sins like Barret - so it's obvious that she had similar thoughts.

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

So, is she interested in a relationship with him or is she not?

In the LA or the HA version?

I was talking here about the LA version. You wanted to know how Cloud and Tifa could confirm that they are mutually disinterested in a relationship if SE says that Tifa loves Cloud. I replied that it's possible for someone to realize that it would be a mistake to start a relationship with someone even though you're attracted to that person. That would qualify as Tifa being disinterested in a relationship.

But I went on to say that Tifa may still be hoping that someday things will change. So no, she's still not interested in a relationship NOW - especially when she sees that Cloud is still in love with Aerith.

If she's currently hoping for things to change, then she's interested in a relationship right now. It wouldn't be accurate to say that she's not interested in a relationship right now -- instead, it would be that she wants things to change right now.

Bah - you really don't understand women very well, do you?

I was in a similar situation in college. I was romantically interested in this guy who was going out with a friend of mine. I didn't try to interfere with their relationship in any way, but I kept hoping he'd take an interest in me at some point. After he broke up with her, I was still hoping that he would. It never happened, and eventually I moved on - but he and I remain good friends until this day.

It pretty much says that in Tifa's profile:

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
......
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It doesn't say that, though. You're still leaving out parts of that quote. What it says is that Tifa's irritation related to Aerith stems from how he's let his guilt over her death drag him into depression:

(bold added for emphasis)

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

And the same part of Tifa's profile says that Aerith was/is (not specified) a "love rival" to Tifa:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud" is in present tense.

"Aerith, who can also be called a love rival" is once again in present tense.

"she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith" is also in present tense.

"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC" is also in present tense.

So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.

Also, since Tifa's affection value is the one subject to manipulation by the player, if Cloud's feelings are supposed to be mercurial and adjust to match hers, in a scenario in which Tifa thinks it unwise to get into a relationship with Cloud because he's in love with Aerith, shouldn't her feelings have influenced his rather than the reverse?

I already explained that in an earlier post. I'm not going to bother digging it up, but here's the concept:

Tifa's affection level goes up when Cloud is nice to her. Tifa's affection level goes down when Cloud isn't nice to her.

When Cloud is nice to Tifa, then his affection for her goes up. That happens in RL, doesn't it? When you have good interactions with someone, you get to like them more. When Cloud isn't nice to Tifa, then his affection level for her goes down. Again, that happens in RL - you act nasty to someone when you don't like them. When Cloud acts nasty to Tifa, her affection goes down.

So yes, the affection level is mutual for this reason.

That doesn't match the game mechanics, though. Cloud doesn't have an affection rating. Tifa does. Her feelings are the ones the player manipulates.

But Tifa's affection level is the result of Cloud's ACTIONS or WORDS toward Tifa (or Aerith). As an example:

When everyone lands in the sewer:
- Talk to Aeris first: (+3 Aeris)
- Talk to Tifa first: (+3 Tifa)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

It's easy to assume that Cloud is acting according to how he feels. If you like one girl more than the other, then it's normal to treat and talk to the girl you like better in a more favorable way than you treat the other. The way Cloud acts and talks is also an indication of how he feels.

What you've said is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa will fluctuate to match hers for him -- but you're also saying that her feelings for him are dependent on his feelings for Aerith. Which is the dependent and independent variable here?

Actually, no. I'm not saying that.

I said that Tifa's interest in a relationship with Cloud will change. She may still be attracted to him and still be very fond of him, while at the same time she is not interested in a relationship with him.

That also doesn't really make sense because the player doesn't have options to act nasty toward Tifa (e.g. there's no option to call her the slum drunk).

You don't have to "be nasty" to Tifa to subtract points from Tifa's affection level. For example, when you first meet RedXIII (and free RedXIII and Aerith from Hojo's "breeding cage"):

When you first meet Red XIII:
- "Tifa, I'm countin' on you!" (-2 Tifa)
- "Barret, take care of her!" (+2 Barret)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

It subtracts points from Tifa's affection level if you ask Tifa to take care of Aerith. Cloud's not "being nasty" to Tifa - he's just asking Tifa to take care of Aerith when Tifa would rather be in on the fight.

For that matter, one can get the high affection Highwind scene even if they didn't get Tifa for the date.

And that could be interpreted to mean that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa.

And, further still, most of the things that influence the affection values are completely arbitrary with no obvious relationship to the values that they influence, and even less obvious links to the effects they have.

For example, before the player even meets Tifa, they can influence Tifa's affection value. It goes down by three points if you tell Jessie "Looking forward to it" on the train ride back to Sector 7.

What does that have to do with Tifa?

Easy.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.

How about getting to the last train car before lockdown during the Reactor 5 mission? Why does that give Tifa and Barret's affection values five points?

Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.

Why does saying "I don't know if I can hold on" at the end of that mission give Tifa's affection rating one point?

Because if he says that, she thinks he's about to die. (If you pick the opposite, he says not to worry about him.) So if you pick the other one, Tifa's remembering her fondness for him before Cloud dies. She even tries to grab him as he falls away, but fails.

If Aerith is chosen as Corneo's date, why does saying "We've gotta help Aerith!" increase Tifa's affection value, while asking her if she's alright lowers it?

Aw, come on - that's unfair. Even the person who wrote the Date Mech guide at http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt says that he/she doesn't know why it's that way.

But... I would think it would be like this. If Cloud asks Tifa if she's alright, then Cloud thinks she needs help. If Cloud asks Tifa to help him find Aerith, then Cloud thinks Tifa's a good ally to have in a fight.

Sorry, but that's all I have time for....

 

[Octo]

Because if he says that, she thinks he's about to die. (If you pick the opposite, he says not to worry about him.) So if you pick the other one, Tifa's remembering her fondness for him before Cloud dies. She even tries to grab him as he falls away, but fails.

She tries to grab him before he falls no matter what option you choose though. Also, she tells him he can't die because there is so much she wants to tell him before you even get the chance to choose dialogue.

 

[Dashell]

Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.

So wait, kids who live with foster parents temporarily are supposed to stop calling their real parents mom and dad? Does this happen IRL? Of course she calls Barret daddy. He's her dad. But that doesn't include him in the family that's Cloud/Tifa/Denzel/Marlene. I know of people whose parents were unable to care for them for a while so they stayed with a friend of the family. They didn't stop calling their parents mom and dad though. That's just kind of silly.

Her profile in the 10th AU specifically states that she, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel are the family.


EDIT
For that matter:

-When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. [Barrett is right there and is not mentioned]

-Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.

-With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward

-The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they [Cloud and Tifa]were forming in Edge.

-Cloud and Tifa's new family [member]

Although he's [Denzel] only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong.

-After the meteor disaster, she's [Marlene] living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.


All from the 10th AU. Look, Anastar, I understand that some things in the Compilation can be a bit confusing and wording can open things up to multiple interpretations. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) another bit of evidence you have that Barret is part of the family is because why would he leave himself out as he's leaving, right?

Now what Barret says before he leaves has two interpretations from both sides. Some of us think he was calling THEM a family and not including himself (And this makes the most sense, because

1. If they were already a family as you've said before, why would Cloud and Tifa be so surprised by this?

2. Why would he say "Hey guys we're a family!" and then leave? That just seems silly )

or the other option, is that Barret excluded himself in the family and then left.

Here's the thing, we have several quotes telling you "CLOUD/TIFA/MARLENE/DENZEL = FAMILY." You have no quotes that Barret is part of the family EXCEPT for in the 10th AU when it says he goes to Edge to protect his family and friends. But how can we say it's the same family as the other passages are talking about? Especially when Marlene is his adoptive father and thus, his family. (YES, I AM saying Marlene has two families. It's not like it's impossible. Barret is her father, but she's living with a family of Cloud, Tifa and Denzel right now.)

WHY would they say only those four are a family (even when Barret is standing right there, mind you and even when Marlene's own profile exclude's Barret and when several of the quotes say that family is Cloud and Tifa's) ... WHY would they do all that if it's Barret's family and he is part of it? ANd "Because Barret isn't living there" is not an answer, because they could easily still call the family his in those passages and they could also easily say "Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel and Barret who is out on a mission, formed a family" or something to that effect.

 

[Octo]

So wait, kids who live with foster parents temporarily are supposed to stop calling their real parents mom and dad? Does this happen IRL? Of course she calls Barret daddy. He's her dad. But that doesn't include him in the family that's Cloud/Tifa/Denzel/Marlene. I know of people whose parents were unable to care for them for a while so they stayed with a friend of the family. They didn't stop calling their parents mom and dad though. That's just kind of silly.

I think you'd stop calling your real parents mom and dad if they were satanist peadophiles or something, and maybe not even then.

People I know who have been fostered or adopted have called both their natural parents and foster parents mum and dad.

Obviously Marlene is never going to stop calling Barret daddy. Denzel is another case entirely, his parents we're killed (he wasn't abandoned) and even though he's being raised by Cloud and Tifa, he probably wont call them mom and dad because he was old enough to remember his natural parents. That, and they weren't satan worshiping crack heads that he hates.

 

[Dashell]

and for that matter, why are we going just off what Marlene thinks? Even if she does consider Barret part of the family, Denzel obviously doesn't because he doesn't know Barret. Since it's Cloud and Tifa's family, we should go off of what THEY think.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll finish answering Zealkin's questions first:

Zealkin

I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.

It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.

Now, why would Tifa live with him? First of all, they ARE good friends. Second, she has noplace else to go. Third, she thinks Barret's going to live with them, so she's thinking it will be like the old Avalanche at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Fourth, she's hoping there's a chance that Cloud will grow to love her.

And again, this 'hoping that a man will grow to love her' is the strong character interpretation in Anastar's eyes.

And this situation would be a good reason for relationship problems between the two of them.

As for her snapping at him being because Cloud is wallowing when the others try to move on - that's a possible interpretation, of course. But my interpretation is just as possible.

Your interpretation is based on a series of entirely unfounded premises. So, no, rationally speaking, it's not.

Which scene? The LA scene or the Tifa snapping scene?

If you mean the Tifa snapping scene, there's nothing about either interpretation. If you mean the LA scene, then:

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Look at the meaning of apathetic:

apathetic - adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.

Synonyms 1. unfeeling, impassive, cool. 2. uninterested, unconcerned.

So the LA version shows they're not interested in each other romantically. Cloud, because he's still in love with Aerith. Tifa, because she knows it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now.

No, Anastar, the LA version shows a CONVERSATION that has little or no emotion.
As for 'because he's still in love with Aerith,' that's for YOU to prove.
And again, the HA scene is entirely independent of Aerith's AV. You can get it when ANY of the four people have the highest AV, even Aerith, and can not get it when Tifa's AV is highest.

And you're ADDING completely pointless color tags to something from another site entirely. Shit's getting real old.

Because the FTOIL page says it's optional for Cloud to love Tifa. The page number at the top of the HW picture leads to a paragraph about how the conversation between Cloud and Tifa diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

No, Anastar, it leads to page 232. P232 has a mention of the deviation, but ALSO says that Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings without words.
And no, the FTOIL page DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING OF THE SORT. Even IF P232 said exactly what you said it did, THAT'S NOT THE FTOIL page.

So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.

Sorry, but I'm not sure where those quotes came from - I assume they're from someone else's post? I think that person's commenting on a page from the Reunion File's, but I'd like to know which page.

Holy hell, you can't even read the Reunion Files yourself? Not that I'm surprised. You quote mine it, too.

But I've also given you quotes where SE says that Cloud's feelings ARE optional:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." ~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Before the Final Battle:
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. ~page 201, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So, where does SE say anything about Cloud's feelings here? I see Tifa's AV mentioned. Not Cloud's.

They communicated feelings in both the LA and HA versions of the HW scene.

No, Anastar, the LA version LACKED FEELING. You know, 'Apathetic' that word you just quoted and lied about applying to Cloud and Tifa and not the conversation of the scene itself?

The feelings in the LA scene were feelings of friendship only and/or disinterest in a romantic relationship, while the feelings between them in the HA scene are romantic. If SE just says they "communicated feelings", that doesn't tell us what kind of feelings - so it can easily apply to both versions.

Except, Anastar, for two things.
'Cloud and Tifa mutually confirmed [romantic] feelings for each other without words' doesn't tell us which version. It merely says it happened.
Also, the feelings in the LA version were not there.

I think you're talking here about the Lifestream event again? "Nor is it talking about past feelings" - if you look at the Lifestream event, Cloud and Tifa are clearly talking about past feelings at that time.

Cloud "I only used to look up at it [Tifa's window] from outside."
Tifa "After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
(She holds her face in her hands.)
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing." "I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER?"
....
Cloud "That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth." "If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might..."
...
"If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......"

Now, Cloud's feelings are clearly how Cloud felt in Nibelheim as a child. The FFVII UO also specifies that Tifa didn't have any interest in Cloud until he said he was going to try to join SOLDIER:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she learned that he was going to try to become a SOLDIER.

I note you cut out the part of those quotes you used that mentions that Cloud and Tifa STILL HELD the feelings during the lifestream, they were holding them at that time.

There were other boys who called Tifa out to the well, too. There were other boys writing her love letters, too - one of those letters is on her desk in her room when you visit Nibelheim:

Cloud "I read it..." "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..."
....
"And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?"

So Cloud wasn't the only boy with a crush on Tifa. The only thing that got her interested in Cloud was him going off to join SOLDIER.

How in the hell is 'other boys were interested in Tifa' relevant here?
No. SERIOUSLY.

I didn't say she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she snapped at Cloud. I said she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she asked if he wanted to talk after finding that delivery order from Elmyra to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. And that wasn't the only example - there would be many opportunities for her to reach out while she was living with him in the same house.

That does not answer WHY.

Most likely because the other girl is dead. Cloud and Tifa have a strong friendship, so she'd have reason to hope it would grow into something more.

Well, we're making some progress. I remember the days when Cloud couldn't WAIT to get the hell out of dodge and away from Tifa.

In fact, Aerith being dead is one reason that Cloti's have said for a long time that Cloud wouldn't be in love with Aerith and that he would move on, etc.

You're mistaking a narrative argument for a suspension of disbelief argument. You're also mistaking 'Cannot have a relationship with' for 'cannot love.'

Thing is, feelings like that are able to continue after death - just look at Yuna's feelings for Tidus. Just look at Barret's feeling for his dead wife. Just look at Vincent's feelings for Lucrecia.

Lucrecia isn't dead.

Doesn't seem OOC for Tifa at all to me. Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

To everyone else, this smacks of emotional dependency and weakness. In fact, I think you used to argue they were. What made you change your mind?

Tres

In the first place,"their home" can grammatically mean "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's home". Barret can easily be part of "their", especially since the story is written in third person.

No.
It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey

The full context of the sentence reveals that 'their' is the same as 'two of them.'
The sentence does not make sense if you insert a third person into the pronoun only to remove them a second later with no indication.

In the second place, he may be calling it "Cloud and Tifa's home" because that's where Cloud and Tifa are living. Case of Tifa makes it very obvious that Barret's planning to live there with them while he's helping to build it.

Actually, no itdoes not. CoT has Tifa wondering what Barret's going to do since he said nothing about it, only for it to be revealed he planned to leave all along.

Plus, Case of Tifa shows that it was all Barret's idea to start a business together with Cloud and Tifa, which is why the house was built. Barret was planning to stay - Case of Barret makes it clear that the only reason he left was to find redemption for his sins.

Being with Marlene gave him peace of mind; he felt guilty for putting off action just one more day. He knew he had to leave, even if he had no purpose. Put some space between him and his heart's crutch, bear himself to the wilds. This was a "quick-fix" departure.. ~Case of Barret

He wanted to put space between himself and Marlene because she is his "heart's crutch". He didn't think he could find redemption with Marlene at his side.

And none of that says he'd been planning on staying from the start. In fact, that the novella begins with talking about helping Cloud and Tifa create their home means he WAS NOT planning on staying.

Maybe so, but Barret had to point that out to Tifa. In Case of Tifa, we see that Tifa was thinking of taking off to settle her sins, too, before Barret said that to her.

No, she said she wanted to settle her sins. Nothing about 'taking off' was mentioned.

And if Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, it could be because Cloud has reasons for leaving, too. However, my original question remains - why would Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place"? If this is supposed to be "Cloud and Tifa's place", then she shouldn't even be wondering whether Cloud thinks of it as Tifa's place alone.

Because she's insecure. And hell, Cloud might not consider himself worthy. But the novella DOES call it Cloud and Tifa's place, the place where THEY were forming a family, their family, Cloud's family, in which he is seen as the father, and Tifa as the mother.

After Barret left. What was it before Barret left? Was Barret staying at "Cloud and Tifa's home", or was the Seventh Heaven "Cloud, Barret, and Tifa's home" before Barret left on a journey to settle his sins?

Barret was staying at Cloud and Tifa's home for A WEEK before he left. He built it, stayed a week, and popped off.

Okay, but what about after Barret left? Do the girls continue sharing a room until Denzel arrives?

No, since Cloud and Tifa share a room and Marlene has her own. DUH.
Yes, that was brazen and not sourced. I figure why should you be the only one to get to play this game.

But Barret may be calling it Cloud and Tifa's place simply because that's where they are living at that time. Case of Tifa shows that Barret was originally planning to stay and run a business with Cloud and Tifa. If he had stayed, the Seventh Heaven would most likely be "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's place".

He never planned on staying.

That doesn't entail that Barret's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven when he returns, either.

You want to assert he does, you prove it. That's how this works.

Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.

Holy seven kinds of fuck, have you NEVER heard of fostering?
Have you never heard of being cared for by an aunt and uncle? Is it impossible for Barret to be Marlene's father in absentia?
Have you NEVER The Brady Bunch (Cousin Oliver), King of the Hill (Luanne), the Beverly Hillbillies, The fresh prince of Bel Air, or ANYTHING where someone lives with adults other than their parents?

Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.

So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.

So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?

And you seem to forget that I'm saying this COULD be happening as easily as your idea of their relationship COULD be happening. Personally, I think it's up to interpretation, and that either interpretation is possible.

So, in your opinion, even if they are in a relationship, they have no real plans to actually live together, and it takes someone else to even suggest it? Instead of wanting to live together but having no direction and someone else suggesting THAT?

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then?

If you want to suggest he did, prove it. You're trying to argue, quite literally based on nothing, that we can't be sure of what we ARE TOLD.

It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.

It's parsimonious. It narratively fits romance far better than any other explanation.

Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too. Tifa said she was thinking about leaving and resolving her sins like Barret - so it's obvious that she had similar thoughts.

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

But Cloud STILL wants Tifa by his side. Even lacking any other definite plan, that one is.

Bah - you really don't understand women very well, do you?

I was in a similar situation in college. I was romantically interested in this guy who was going out with a friend of mine. I didn't try to interfere with their relationship in any way, but I kept hoping he'd take an interest in me at some point. After he broke up with her, I was still hoping that he would. It never happened, and eventually I moved on - but he and I remain good friends until this day.

I tend to leave me out of this as much as I can, but my GIRLFRIEND doesn't believe the line you're feeding us. So no, it's not just him.
And even if true, that really sounds wishy washy and weak. You hoped he'd do something but you never did a damn thing about it.

And the same part of Tifa's profile says that Aerith was/is (not specified) a "love rival" to Tifa:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud" is in present tense.

"Aerith, who can also be called a love rival" is once again in present tense.

"she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith" is also in present tense.

"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC" is also in present tense.

So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.

To ANYONE defending Anastar, THIS is your evidence she's doing this deliberately. Tres JUST provided her with the rest of that quote, and SHE IGNORED IT. She's trying to IGNORE the ACTUAL EXPLANATION of those complicated feelings for those she would prefer to be the case.
IT'S WILLFUL, SHE'S PURPOSELY DISHONEST. QED.

But Tifa's affection level is the result of Cloud's ACTIONS or WORDS toward Tifa (or Aerith). As an example:

When everyone lands in the sewer:
- Talk to Aeris first: (+3 Aeris)
- Talk to Tifa first: (+3 Tifa)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

It's easy to assume that Cloud is acting according to how he feels. If you like one girl more than the other, then it's normal to treat and talk to the girl you like better in a more favorable way than you treat the other. The way Cloud acts and talks is also an indication of how he feels.

You'd be wrong. Because Tifa's values go up for reasons entirely unrelated to liking one girl more than the other. Yuffie's go up when you DON'T like her. Aerith's go down when you push the wrong barrel. Does Cloud start disliking Aerith and push the wrong barrels on purpose?

Actually, no. I'm not saying that.

I said that Tifa's interest in a relationship with Cloud will change. She may still be attracted to him and still be very fond of him, while at the same time she is not interested in a relationship with him.

You're not answering his question. He's asking if Tifa's feelings match Cloud's OR if hers are dependant on his feelings for Aerith. You HAVE said both before. Tres is asking which set of feelings actually affects the others.

You don't have to "be nasty" to Tifa to subtract points from Tifa's affection level. For example, when you first meet RedXIII (and free RedXIII and Aerith from Hojo's "breeding cage"):

When you first meet Red XIII:
- "Tifa, I'm countin' on you!" (-2 Tifa)
- "Barret, take care of her!" (+2 Barret)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

It subtracts points from Tifa's affection level if you ask Tifa to take care of Aerith. Cloud's not "being nasty" to Tifa - he's just asking Tifa to take care of Aerith when Tifa would rather be in on the fight.

So, Cloud asks Tifa to take care of Aerith because he dislikes Tifa? He asks Barret to do the same because he does like Barret?
Say WHAT?

And that could be interpreted to mean that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa.

You can get the YUFFIE DATE and the High Highwind scene, Anastar. Does he love Yuffie and Tifa, then?

Easy.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.

And so Tifa's affection for Cloud changes based on a conversation she never hears?
Barret likes Cloud more because he gives Marlene a flower? Because Cloud says Barret is his boyfriend when Corneo asks?
And Cloud dislikes Aerith so he pushes barrels in her way. Those are all consequences of your silliness, Anastar.

Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.

So, that's ENTIRELY INDEPENDANT of his affection for them. Can you be consistent about this at all?

Because if he says that, she thinks he's about to die. (If you pick the opposite, he says not to worry about him.) So if you pick the other one, Tifa's remembering her fondness for him before Cloud dies. She even tries to grab him as he falls away, but fails.

She reaches for him in both versions. And, so, does Cloud play strong for Barret when he tells Tifa to 'Be strong?'

Aw, come on - that's unfair. Even the person who wrote the Date Mech guide at http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt says that he/she doesn't know why it's that way.

It's perfectly fair and valid. It's a perfect example of how stupid and arbitrary the whole mechanic is.

But... I would think it would be like this. If Cloud asks Tifa if she's alright, then Cloud thinks she needs help. If Cloud asks Tifa to help him find Aerith, then Cloud thinks Tifa's a good ally to have in a fight.

So, either way, Cloud shows concern over her or he shows he thinks favorably of her. Where's the negative ? YOU SAID
"Tifa's affection level goes up when Cloud is nice to her. Tifa's affection level goes down when Cloud isn't nice to her." But BOTH OF THOSE are positive towards Tifa by your own reading.

Tres's question "Why treat an inherently illogical, completely arbitrary game mechanic as related to the narrative?" still stands.

Sorry, but that's all I have time for....

No, Anastar, it's all you feel brave enough to tackle. You left QUITE A CHUNK of Tres's post not responded to, including the part where he AGAIN, and IN JAPANESE explained the past progressive tense to you.
IIRC, you are unemployed, no? What time are you running out of?
And why aren't you waiting til you at least respond to all of Tres's post before you post again?

 

[Vendel]

I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.

When exactly did this conversation take place? Was Tifa talking to a sleeping Cloud again?

It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.

Which is why you go about spending the rest of your life with that person.......

Now, why would Tifa live with him? First of all, they ARE good friends. Second, she has noplace else to go. Third, she thinks Barret's going to live with them, so she's thinking it will be like the old Avalanche at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Fourth, she's hoping there's a chance that Cloud will grow to love her.

Fifth it was Cloud who said he was going to be with Tifa regardless.

Because the FTOIL page says it's optional for Cloud to love Tifa.

I keep looking for this but I can't seem to find it on the page.

Maybe it's in the same place that talks about Aerith?

But I've also given you quotes where SE says that Cloud's feelings ARE optional:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." ~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Before the Final Battle:
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. ~page 201, FFVII Ultimania Omega

This is hilarious. How can you claim that SE says Cloud's feelings are optional then use as proof a bunch of statements about Tifa's AV?

They communicated feelings in both the LA and HA versions of the HW scene. The feelings in the LA scene were feelings of friendship only and/or disinterest in a romantic relationship, while the feelings between them in the HA scene are romantic. If SE just says they "communicated feelings", that doesn't tell us what kind of feelings - so it can easily apply to both versions.

Again where is this "communication of feelings happening" in the LA version? While they are sleeping?

In fact, Aerith being dead is one reason that Cloti's have said for a long time that Cloud wouldn't be in love with Aerith and that he would move on, etc. Thing is, feelings like that are able to continue after death - just look at Yuna's feelings for Tidus. Just look at Barret's feeling for his dead wife. Just look at Vincent's feelings for Lucrecia.

Ignoring the strawmanning I will point out once again that Lucrecia isn't dead.

Doesn't seem OOC for Tifa at all to me. Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

Funny how this was "clingy desperation" now it's "emotional strength".

Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.

So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.

The entire game took place in under two months. And yet you think their homeless adventures took several?

So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?

I thought Cloud was going to be searching for Aerith?

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then?

What?

Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too.

If Cloud wanted to leave he sure has a funny way of showing it.

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

Cloud made his plans clear right after the final battle. He would be with Tifa.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie,

This.......seems unlikely.

 

[aerbear]

And I am saying shipping is all well and good so long as you don't argue that Harry/Ginny is not canon. Because that is a bald-faced lie, you see. Was my point really unclear about this?

And we know Harry/Ginny is canon because they married. Not sure if they told each other they loved each other but probably they did that too.

And they don't have to be to be a couple any more than they need to be married to raise kids.

Yes, that's what I believe - they don't have to be a couple to raise kids.

I knew something like that would be said, and I left it open just so I could respond as I am now.

Ya got me there.

I stated the relevance of it in my last reply to Annie, now that Tres has kick started my brain into seeing said relevance. As far as tearing down the fact that Cloti is canon, however, it still IS irrelevant.

It seems like it would be relevant, if it's on the page. The whole page is about love developing between protagonists, and Cloud is shown with both girls. It wasn't there for no reason at all.

No it doesn't, it directs you to a deviation you can optionally see in your playthrough of the game. Within the narrative as it is being told to us via summary and such, it is not optional at all and people need to stop pretending it is.

So it literally had to be directly in the description that it's optional? Having a page number isn't enough?

There is a reason for this.

Yes, because it's explained on page 232.

Again, no.

Page 232.

You flat said "I don't think you really believe this." I'd go back and quote it, but I'm lazy and I'm sure it was seen before. You are now backpedaling.

Yeah, I tend to say what I don't really mean.
I didn't mean it like that. I was talking about what I heard on a different thread here that you guys were trying to get us mad - and yes, I already know it isn't true now, that you guys are serious, but I didn't then.

There were two heroines in the game. There was a love triangle. This does not mean the love triangle cannot end with a definitive conclusion.

Where did it end? I don't remember Cloud and Tifa getting together.

It does make sense that the dates get a mention as per the fact that a confession of feelings is attempted on said dates.

But the page is about mutual development. I take it to mean he can develop feelings with either, or both.

Now, I want to point out again that I DO believe Cloud had feelings for Aerith that at the very least border on crossing the friendship line. And that does not prevent him from ending up with Tifa either.

I respect that.

Power of Friendship is not apathetic. I laughed, otherwise it would fail even as a joke.

erm, yes, my jokes are bad. Was trying to be friends..

Never mind then, I can see that SHIP has sailed.......

That doesn't fit at all. Thinking they're the only two people who are going to head down and fight Sephiroth =/= them starting a new life together, with Cloud sure he can succeed because he has her in a different way from before. It does not fit with them adopting and raising kids together. It does not fit at all.

It can. He basically says the same thing that he's thinking in Dismantled after the LA version - he isn't alone, Tifa is at his side. He ends up living with her and raising two kids that they love after it. Sounds fitting, unless you see Cloud and Tifa in a "romantic" light - then of course the HAHWS would fit better for you.

And I never said that she is nothing but a source of guilt and sadness in his life. If he didn't care for her in some way, he wouldn't BE so guilty and ashamed.

Thank you! Not everybody sees that.

Then how about a comment on the matter? If you're not dismissing it, then lets bring it into the conversation from both sides. No rush of course, just as it comes up again.

Okay.

If you've got nothing concrete, then why do you buy into this "there is no canon" position again? You don't think your ship is canon, but you'll argue forever that Cloti isn't either despite the evidence supporting it. Why?

Because there is no concrete "Cloud and Tifa are together/Cloud and Tifa have romantic feelings like this" in the story. I think its hinted at, clearly. The subtlety exists for both sides.

And yes, I will argue until SE says Cloud and Tifa are definitely together (no hinting, beating around the bush, blah blah) because of what Nomura said. When he was talking directly about the romantic relationships in FFVII, he started talking about fans imagining as they like. Really... He didn't flat out say "The LT is player interpreted" but he seemed to have.

So, what DOES lead to him doing all these things that bind him ever tighter in his relationship to Tifa then? Could it be love?!

Of course it could.

Then my comments about how it makes perfect sense that he is talking about realizing romance with her, and that the monologue is therefore on a different level than the friendships HE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT, stands perfectly well.

He isn't exactly talking about their friendship, the way I see it. He said he no longer felt alone and that Tifa taught him that. It's kind of like feelings of support.

Either way, as translated it really appears he is still feeling those feelings, not that the quote refers to those feelings being held back. Especially since if they are being held back from his recollection, the promise wouldn't have meant much to him/he wouldn't have remembered it at all until after the LS sequence. And, how do you hold something back that isn't there any more?

The thing is, the young Cloud that was there didn't even seem aware of his present feelings. If I remember right, he said something like he'll probably be so happy to hear that Tifa cares. But personally, I don't think it really signifies that Cloud is presently feeling those exact feelings because it's coming from a younger Cloud who did.

And there is the rejection nonsense I brought up while debating Annie. And again, we are told that the confirmation of feelings DID happen. So yes, that is the canon version.

It's specified once that, in one version, there are feelings of desire. In everything else, it just says feelings. So I'm taking that to meaning they do so in both.

It all ends up in the same place either way.

I agree so much.
That's why I don't think either date or Highwind scene is canon. The story just leaves them behind for imagination, technically.

Well that's a slap in the face to every awkward kid who has very few friends and latches on to people they're not very close to as FRIENDS. People like I used to be, in fact.

Well, that isn't at all what I meant?
But I'm happy for you that you aren't like that anymore.

At any rate, even if Tifa didn't know him as well as she thought, she still DID know him better than everyone else. Simply by knowing him as a kid, even just as a neighbor and town bully, that much is not really arguable.

Okay. I agree.

Put this together with the rest of the proof rather than view it on its own. Then its hard not to see that they are living as a father and mother in love, marriage not required.

I've made of the other proof something different than you have. We've just come to different conclusions of what their relationship is. It's never been definitely said what their relationship is outside of friends/comrades.

But even if he still has undying feeling post ACC, that doesn't mean he loves her.

But he has a love for her, same as them. I'm saying it could be romantic. The possibility is there.

There ya go, get it out of your system. Give in to your anger!

Darth Vader would be proud.

Now, Tifa does flat out admit on her date that she's somewhat jealous of Aerith's ability to be forthright, so there is that. But really, two close friends both have it bad for the same guy. Can you not see any emotion other than jealousy that might be called peevish stemming from that?

I guess. What emotion did you have in mind? I really don't see it right now.

Since when does a placeholder get chosen as one of the four most important scenes in a game?

I meant its picture in the summary, like the Aerith date.

*sigh* They were part of an eco-terrorist cell, so yes they lived in the same place for a time. Marlene needed looking after, but there is no indication that they exactly did this "together." And it has NEVER been said they had a future together at any point.

Technically speaking, they had a future that would now be considered the past. Didn't mean this as like a shipping thing.

Please, just stop trying to bullshit us with this Barret/Tifa nonsense.

Hold on, I need a Band-Aid for these wounds.

What tension? And if you're just cracking wise to ease this supposed tension, then why are people mistaking you for serious?

Well, it seems like people here are quite serious and I'm not so it's my fault.

With regards to the Ultimanias, they have spelled out what WAS shown in the games/films/novellas sufficiently that it shouldn't need interpreting anymore, if indeed it ever did.

Well, Nomura seems to like interpretations... Heh.

Thank you for at least admitting that we have a case.

You know how I do.

Multiple questions need multiple answers. Correct me if I am wrong, but the LT is not the only thing people might have questions about yes? It is not the only thing that quote is referring to, right?

That's true. But at a time when he was referring to the relationships, he said fans should imagine and enjoy talking about it.

And again, you obstinately refuse to accept that just because multiple answers are possible, that does not mean a single answer cannot be the correct one.

No matter what, so far, Aerith and Tifa are being called Cloud's friends and comrades. But that's boring, so we took other things to mean something, and we did get separate answers, but it isn't shown that either is the correct one.

They don't have to be married to be in a relationship either.

And they don't have to be in a relationship to take care of these kids and live together with Barret.

Twice the High Highwind is stressed. On two occasions romance and earnest feelings are stressed. We're being clobbered with what we're supposed to be taking as important from all this.

It couldn't have been too important if it was never mentioned again.

And as mentioned, that's still not apathy.

Is it candid now or...?
And anyway, Cloud still says they are no longer alone in the end of both versions, so maybe "apathetic" is not their best description - or maybe it meant that it's just more apathetic than the other version? That kind of made more sense.

What do you mean 'jump on board?'
They did it just so he'd stop muttering zipperbelt under his breath all day.

Nomura: *drawing in a corner at his desk* "Lulu... FFX... boots... gunswords... zipperbelts..."

Nojima: "Wtf are you doing?"

Can I ask when you switched to this stance? And how it's notably different from 'they definitely did happen?'
Because this is a radical change in the Clerith paradigm since as recently as early this year.

I changed my stance years ago, when I realized it was never said that Cloud loved Aerith in that way and the whole interpretation thing.

As for everybody else, I'm not sure, but I gave this more thought and I think it's that C/A people believe it's canon but hasn't been outright confirmed. Like, they/we saw it as "obvious" that Cloud loved her the way we think it did (similar to how you guys think it's obvious he loved Tifa) and doesn't really need to be proven, but as far as the LT stands officially, we believe it's about interpretation. Sorry if I'm not making any sense.

None of those perople were me. They are irrelevant to the name or the content of the article.

I didn't know you wrote it.

It's from just before they face Sephiroth. It still doesn't say when he learned that from Tifa, or if it was all he learned.

It links pretty well with what he says after both scenes, though, and the line that says he and Tifa become aware of their feelings by the end of the story.

And none of those people are me. STOP REFERENCING THEM.

Woah, look at those caps.

You are incorrect. That is a direct choice by the player.

I read it somewhere in an Ultimania or Dismantled, not sure. I only remember Aerith coming with me at that part when her affection was higher so it seemed right?

Yes. It's my girlfriend's doing.

Ooooh.

I mean officially. Does that happen in the narrative, AFAWK, or is it merely something that CAN happen BECAUSE she's female?

It has to happen if she's female - there's no other option.

Then we bring in KH2 and all the assumptions people had about Aerith go OUT the window- because yes, Virginia, Tifa is Cloud's light, just as Sephiroth is his darkness.

lol

So why were you arguing against the other possibility?

So you would know that your interpretation isn't the only one that can be right.

Hey, I'm not trying to say you guys are wrong, and remember this. This "interpretation" thing Nomura talks about, I defend it.

Your previous wording did read as though you thought he was only staying because Barret offered him more money. Regardless, if you accept he stayed with Tifa, then we can move on.

I don't accept it, but I felt like I was being a douche so I figured I'd just leave it.

Yours might be too high for Children, honestly.

Well, he was always by himself. A friend would have stuck with him, in my opinion.

Of course, that begs the question, why is it a big deal if they're having issues in a platonic relationship?

Because they're part of a family, and the story kind of revolves around that family while they're taking care of Marlene and Denzel, who notice when they aren't getting along.

He does think of her as the mother of the family. She thinks of him as the dad. Denzel thinks of both of them as parents, etc.

Where?

But not do anything romantic or be bothered with her romantic feelings towards the boy? Now we're just being silly.

Didn't say that.

Firstly, that's a quote mine. There's another sentence about its relation to the church scene where Cloud walks down the path between the pews

Did it say it was talking about that scene?

Secondly, it's from 2k3, not 2k7.

I went to two different places and they said that. Sorry.

Thirdly, yes, it can be guilt. Undying, as I keep stressing, does not mean immutable.

Undying means forever. If his guilt is gone, that isn't forever. At the end of AC, it was being lifted. Cloud was like, gtfo guilt.

And right before, Nomura was talking about peoples loves for her. Guilt isn't love.

In any case, even if it is jealousy, it need not be jealousy because Aerith is making romantic inroads. It can easily be jealousy that Aerith can be so forward and easygoing, something that Tifa comments on during her date with Cloud when she hesistates to say what she wants and comments that Aerith would have no trouble.

Well, she does get peevish feelings in reaction to Cloud and Aerith together, when Aerith wasn't saying her feelings. But yeah, you could definitely be right.

I wasn't saying you were. I was just saying that appeals of that sort fall on deaf ears, because I've known people who WERE all those things.
Google 'Star Wars vs Star Trek Darkstar' and you'll see the sort of person that made me realize, yes, people can be that dishonest in the name of their goals, no matter how trivial.

Okay. Sorry.

By the way, Star Wars > Star Trek. In every way.

Also says, and thinks, that he's going to have her at his side in a different way than before not more than a few hours later. So if he already had her at his side- and he did- it's different later on.

Because they're living a different life now, without Sephiroth and all the hell he brought.

It was part of the response you quoted.

My bad. I really don't remember.

And my point is, FF7 isn't "-Nomura". It's "-Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, and many others besides."

Yes, I know.

You joke, but it's still an absolutely infuriating bit of social and literary philosophy.

What's wrong with them letting us have our own interpretations? It makes the story more personal for everybody, honestly. It's nice.

And yet it's demanded that it be directly stated that Cloud still likes Tifa. Just like what was done in 1997.
We have observation and creator statements. These observations and statements link together to make a bigger picture with very few assumptions.

It's only really been hinted that Cloud and Tifa could have a relationship. Possibility is there, of course, because it's been left off, but they're officially regarded as friends.

It was made within the story itself. We're giving detail to the narrative, being told which events happened and what they mean.
And then Cloud and Tifa move in and form a family together.

It is not this black and white.

Which isn't a contradictory answer. But no, two contradictory answers

Who Cloud loves is not hugely relevant to the story, so what are we contradicting? He did say there are answers, not just one answer, right?

"I think I'm beginning to understand. An answer from the planet. The Promised Land. I think I can meet her...there."

That is my answer and I stick with it. We'll take from it whatever we see but no one said that we're wrong? What does it affect, which girl he likes? What is it contradicting?

On this case, I can declare the Katai Shinsho wrong, if it's being accurately quoted. In battle actions do not affect the AV itself at all.

It said it's information given from the staff so maybe he was misinformed.

 

[Zealkin]

I'll finish answering Zealkin's questions first:

Zealkin

I never said that Tifa knows she'll be rejected. What I said was that Tifa knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now because she knows he's in love with Aerith. So she tells Cloud in the LA scene that they will always be good friends and leaves it at that.

Okay but where is there a quote that says exactly that? I've never heard of that before.

It's not that Tifa knows she will be rejected - it's that Tifa doesn't WANT a relationship with Cloud right now. Sometimes, regardless of your feelings for someone, you know that it's not a good idea to get involved with them.

But the LA scene does not communicate anything, it ends short, as in they don't even talk about a possible or no possibility of a relationship. Not only that but there is no quote describing Tifa acting as such in either scene.

Now, why would Tifa live with him? First of all, they ARE good friends. Second, she has noplace else to go. Third, she thinks Barret's going to live with them, so she's thinking it will be like the old Avalanche at the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Fourth, she's hoping there's a chance that Cloud will grow to love her.

Then who's koibito is she being described as in the reunion files, if she is supposedly pining after Cloud the entire movie? We agree she's interested in Cloud then who else would Tifa's koibito be?

And this situation would be a good reason for relationship problems between the two of them.

In order to have relationship problems, you have to have a relationship, how can it just not work out if they have apparently been in a relationship before?

So again how is the scene when Cloud is drinking himself into oblivion indicative of Tifa wanting to be in a relationship with him?

As for her snapping at him being because Cloud is wallowing when the others try to move on - that's a possible interpretation, of course. But my interpretation is just as possible.

It's not interpretation though, she's been stated to be moving on despite her troubled past:

Even though being burdened with painful “memories” is the same for everyone － Unable to do much for Cloud who is always dragging around his regrets for the past, she subconsciously raises her voice.(10th AU)

The Seventh Heaven which appeared in AC/DC was opened in order for her to move on and overcome her sorrow for the AVALANCHE comrades lost, as well as her guilt for the many lives sacrificed.(10th AU)

Which scene? The LA scene or the Tifa snapping scene?

If you mean the Tifa snapping scene, there's nothing about either interpretation. If you mean the LA scene, then:

No, I meant give me a quote stating that since Tifa knew Cloud loved Aerith she decided to not share her feelings with Cloud, I've never heard of that...

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Look at the meaning of apathetic:

apathetic - adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.

Synonyms 1. unfeeling, impassive, cool. 2. uninterested, unconcerned.
- Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathetic

Yes apathetic means uninterested, so Tifa would have to be completely uninterested with Cloud to begin with, she would not even have hidden feelings that she was waiting to express later on. She does not have them in this version, and it does not match up with what happens in the rest of the narrative.

So the LA version shows they're not interested in each other romantically. Cloud, because he's still in love with Aerith. Tifa, because she knows it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud right now.

Where does it say Cloud and Tifa are not interested in each other because Cloud still loves Aerith? Please show me a quote.

Because the FTOIL page says it's optional for Cloud to love Tifa. The page number at the top of the HW picture leads to a paragraph about how the conversation between Cloud and Tifa diverges into two conditions according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud.

So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.

Even on page 232 it says nothing of the sort, it describes all of the dates and the highwinds deviations, but no where in the LA deviation does it say that Cloud was not interested in Tifa because he was interested in Aerith.

Sorry, but I'm not sure where those quotes came from - I assume they're from someone else's post? I think that person's commenting on a page from the Reunion File's, but I'd like to know which page.

You posted them:

Considering Tifa's background and all she's been through up to this point, she is carrying a huge burden herself. But in this film, you don't get a clear look of what's actually going on inside Tifa's head. ~Nojima, Reunion Files, page 21

Tifa is a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, page 20

You said :I think Tifa's the type who would be hopeful and keep dreaming that Cloud may change IF she put herself in that situation

I described what the quotes were saying and asked how the two relate. So again how do these quotes even hint at Tifa pining after Cloud?

But I've also given you quotes where SE says that Cloud's feelings ARE optional:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match." ~Tifa's profile, FFVII UO

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Before the Final Battle:
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. ~page 201, FFVII Ultimania Omega

None of these quotes say if Cloud's affection is high, they're all about Tifa's affection rate.

They communicated feelings in both the LA and HA versions of the HW scene. The feelings in the LA scene were feelings of friendship only and/or disinterest in a romantic relationship, while the feelings between them in the HA scene are romantic. If SE just says they "communicated feelings", that doesn't tell us what kind of feelings - so it can easily apply to both versions.

You have given me the definition of apathetic, one of the definitions includes having little or no emotion involved. If Tifa is the one holding feelings, that is still her being romantically interested which means that it would NOT be apathetic, the LA scene communicates nothing, it ends short, and until a quote is provided of Aerith being the reason that Cloud is not interested in Tifa, this explanation falls short.

I think you're talking here about the Lifestream event again? "Nor is it talking about past feelings" - if you look at the Lifestream event, Cloud and Tifa are clearly talking about past feelings at that time.

Cloud "I only used to look up at it [Tifa's window] from outside."
Tifa "After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
(She holds her face in her hands.)
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing." "I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER?"
....
Cloud "That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth." "If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might..."
...
"If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......"

Now, Cloud's feelings are clearly how Cloud felt in Nibelheim as a child. The FFVII UO also specifies that Tifa didn't have any interest in Cloud until he said he was going to try to join SOLDIER:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Yes Tifa was interested in Cloud, but no where does it say when her feelings for him developed. And no where does it say Clouds feelings for Tifa died away. These feelings are in the present, and Tres why and how very nicely.

So Tifa had no interest in Cloud until she learned that he was going to try to become a SOLDIER. There were other boys who called Tifa out to the well, too. There were other boys writing her love letters, too - one of those letters is on her desk in her room when you visit Nibelheim:

Cloud "I read it..." "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..."
....
"And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?"

So Cloud wasn't the only boy with a crush on Tifa. The only thing that got her interested in Cloud was him going off to join SOLDIER.

Wait what? What were those for?

I didn't say she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she snapped at Cloud. I said she was reaching out for a possible relationship when she asked if he wanted to talk after finding that delivery order from Elmyra to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. And that wasn't the only example - there would be many opportunities for her to reach out while she was living with him in the same house.

Yeah you did:

For example, the scene where Tifa finds the delivery order from Elmyra to take flowers to Aerith's grave and offers to talk with Cloud about it. He shuns her and says he wants to drink alone. Tifa snaps and says to go drink in his room.

IMO, that's a very good example of where Tifa's may be hoping that someday, Cloud will get interested in her. When she sees him reject her help and interest, then she gets mad and snaps at him. (Now please notice, I said MAY be hoping... I don't know for sure, but it's sure possible.)

Both of these paragraphs talk about it, and how does that example tell of her reaching out to Cloud? How do either of these examples depict this?

Most likely because the other girl is dead. Cloud and Tifa have a strong
friendship, so she'd have reason to hope it would grow into something more.

So why didn't she act on it when she had the chance? She did in the HA version, and no feelings were transmitted in the low affection the conversation held no emotion, it ended short.

In fact, Aerith being dead is one reason that Cloti's have said for a long time that Cloud wouldn't be in love with Aerith and that he would move on, etc. Thing is, feelings like that are able to continue after death - just look at Yuna's feelings for Tidus. Just look at Barret's feeling for his dead wife. Just look at Vincent's feelings for Lucrecia.

Hmm well I never really held that standard, and don't think it matters whether or not she was alive. The creators planned for Aerith to die before they even developed everything. Her death was a plot device, a catalyst that moved the group forward, not a jump start for Tifa so she could get Cloud. :/

Doesn't seem OOC for Tifa at all to me. Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

This fits the definitions of Weak:

1. Lacking in resolution or firmness of character

2. Lacing in convistion, persuasiveness, etc

This is what you're describing Tifa as, a character that has no resolution, and cannot even tell the man she's known for years about her interest in him.

You have described Tifa as a pining woman:
Pining
1.
to yearn deeply; suffer with longing; long painfully (often followed by for): to pine for one's home and family.

So Tifa is painfully waiting for Cloud to notice her romantic interest, hoping that one day he'll notice her. Which is actually the exact opposite of her character at this point. She doesn't leave matters alone like this, she confronts them head on.

And as a side note, if Tifa supposedly is the one to know Cloud the best, and is the only one he's opened his heart to, how would she not know that he harbors no interest for her? Since she knows him so well she should know that her chasing after him would be a fruitless venture since he's in love with Aerith....

 

[Dashell]

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then?

Because we are not told this. You have to PROVE this to us. Cloud's feelings have not been said to change so PROVE to us that they did. You keep asking us to disprove your ideas, but the burden is on YOU to prove them to US.

To ANYONE defending Anastar, THIS is your evidence she's doing this deliberately. Tres JUST provided her with the rest of that quote, and SHE IGNORED IT. She's trying to IGNORE the ACTUAL EXPLANATION of those complicated feelings for those she would prefer to be the case.
IT'S WILLFUL, SHE'S PURPOSELY DISHONEST. QED.

EDIT
ALso, Anastar, why did you go back to using the apathetic version of the quote? I thought the candid one made more sense to you...?

 

[Celes Chere]

but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then?

Because he still lives with her in DoC?

 

[Winter]

let's be honest their relationship was non-existent in DoC

but that game has an awful plot and awful writing so

 

[Vendel]

Yes, that's what I believe - they don't have to be a couple to raise kids.

One would think that platonic roommates who raise two children would be a situation that would be commented on. Instead we have many quotes describing them as family. Pretty much the exact opposite of the "not a couple" scenario.

It seems like it would be relevant, if it's on the page. The whole page is about love developing between protagonists, and Cloud is shown with both girls. It wasn't there for no reason at all.

The page is describing displays/declarations of romantic love between the protagonist. Under FFVII we have one scene described as up to the player. With no partner mentioned. The other we have an exchange of mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa.

Where did it end? I don't remember Cloud and Tifa getting together.

Well if you want to be technical the LT ended when Aerith died. Or you could say it ended in the LS when Cloud got his head straight. Or you could say it ended under the HW where C/T confirm those mutual feelings they have been holding. Take your pick.

But the page is about mutual development. I take it to mean he can develop feelings with either, or both.

You would be wrong on both counts.

It can. He basically says the same thing that he's thinking in Dismantled after the LA version - he isn't alone, Tifa is at his side. He ends up living with her and raising two kids that they love after it. Sounds fitting, unless you see Cloud and Tifa in a "romantic" light - then of course the HAHWS would fit better for you.

Again the "do everything like a couple but not be a couple" situation you are describing would need an explanation. It's not anywhere near normal.

Because there is no concrete "Cloud and Tifa are together/Cloud and Tifa have romantic feelings like this" in the story. I think its hinted at, clearly. The subtlety exists for both sides.

I'm not sure how Cloud and Tifa being together because of their mutual love for each other and deciding to spend the rest of their lives together and then start a family is "hinted at".

And yes, I will argue until SE says Cloud and Tifa are definitely together

They have. Multiple times.

The thing is, the young Cloud that was there didn't even seem aware of his present feelings. If I remember right, he said something like he'll probably be so happy to hear that Tifa cares. But personally, I don't think it really signifies that Cloud is presently feeling those exact feelings because it's coming from a younger Cloud who did.

Two things. that is Cloud's subconscious. It's not the younger version of him. Secondly it tells Tifa that cloud will be happy to hear that she kept an eye out for him. It's sure about this.

It's specified once that, in one version, there are feelings of desire. In everything else, it just says feelings. So I'm taking that to meaning they do so in both.

Actually it's specified several times with no version given. Seriously there are like 20 quotes about C/T's feelings for each other. And none of them contradict each other. They only reinforce.

I forget, how many do Aerith and Cloud get? That are not about guilt that is. I'll wait.

I've made of the other proof something different than you have. We've just come to different conclusions of what their relationship is. It's never been definitely said what their relationship is outside of friends/comrades.

It has been stated. That is why your conclusion is wrong.






Oh and for the record this quote.

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then?

Is talking about the time between Cloud telling Tifa he can succeed because of her and Cloud blushing because he said he will remind her of how strong she is. This was before they even built 7th Heaven if I recall. But apparently Cloud changed his mind about living with Tifa in that time.

Or something...hell if I can figure that part out.

 

[Celes Chere]

let's be honest their relationship was non-existent in DoC

but that game has an awful plot and awful writing so

how do you know it was non existent? We don't see anything, lol. All we have really is the quote that confirms they still live together.

But yes DoC is bad and SE should feel bad.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

First off, welcome back aerbear. Forgive me if something of this response doesn't make sense, but your last post was quite a while ago and I don't really remember it all at this point. I'll do my best with what was in this post and my dim memory.

And we know Harry/Ginny is canon because they married. Not sure if they told each other they loved each other but probably they did that too.

And this is the only way to know a couple is canon, is it? Marriage or gtfo? Cause that would just be silly.

Yes, that's what I believe - they don't have to be a couple to raise kids.

No, you do not need to be in a relationship to raise kids. I can agree with this. Cloud and Tifa still ARE a couple, but at least we agree on something.

Ya got me there.

It seems like it would be relevant, if it's on the page. The whole page is about love developing between protagonists, and Cloud is shown with both girls. It wasn't there for no reason at all.

Cloud is pictured with both girls. The text never refers to Aerith. Period. End of story. Aerith is not discussed in any way on this page, nor on the Clerith beloved page 232. The information given with the date picture discusses exactly one thing, the fact that one of four people will show up and force Cloud out on a date depending on the player's actions. Aside from that, it's ALL Cloud and Tifa confirming mutual feelings.

Why is this still being contested?

So it literally had to be directly in the description that it's optional? Having a page number isn't enough?

No, a page number is not enough. Page 232 doesn't say a thing about the scene being optional, it describes a deviation and the means to cause it in a play through of the game. And it too confirms that yes, Cloud and Tifa DID confirm mutual romantic feelings.

Yes, because it's explained on page 232.

I'm gonna try again: Page 232 DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY. See above paragraph for a description of what said page does say.

Page 232.

Does not say what you want it to say. Again.

Yeah, I tend to say what I don't really mean.

That seems unnecessarily confusing.

I didn't mean it like that. I was talking about what I heard on a different thread here that you guys were trying to get us mad - and yes, I already know it isn't true now, that you guys are serious, but I didn't then.

Good to hear.

Where did it end? I don't remember Cloud and Tifa getting together.

You don't accept Cloud and Tifa getting together. There is a small difference.

But the page is about mutual development. I take it to mean he can develop feelings with either, or both.

The part about Cloud and Tifa is about mutual romantic development. Aerith isn't even mentioned. Not at all. She is not discussed in any capacity. How do you take nothing but an image and infer that it is equal to the actual text on the page?

Further, even if you absolutely must place meaning on the particular picture they used for the blurb about the dates (the part that actually IS pointed out as purely optional) it has been stated that Cloud remains oblivious to the attempted confession no matter what date you get. Ergo, not mutual.

I respect that.

I should hope so.

erm, yes, my jokes are bad. Was trying to be friends..

I laughed, so it wasn't the WORST joke. And we could be friends, this just isn't the best thread to expect me to be super friendly Try one of the other threads sometime, I'm friendlier in some of those.

Never mind then, I can see that SHIP has sailed.......

Wat?

It can. He basically says the same thing that he's thinking in Dismantled after the LA version - he isn't alone, Tifa is at his side. He ends up living with her and raising two kids that they love after it. Sounds fitting, unless you see Cloud and Tifa in a "romantic" light - then of course the HAHWS would fit better for you.

But Tifa, as she points out herself in CoT, was always by Cloud's side. And as Cloud points out, what he means is kind of different this time. If the apathetic and short LA version happened... why is it kind of different? Even if he has realized he isn't alone... that works retroactively. He realized he hadn't been alone since he reunited with Tifa at the least. That wouldn't merit the "what I mean is kind of different" now would it? Especially since the statement comes complete with blushing.

Thank you! Not everybody sees that.

I think most everybody here sees it, it just gets lost in the shuffle of the debate. No one here is saying Cloud feels NOTHING but guilt regarding Aerith. What is being pointed out is that the guilt is the most frequently mentioned emotion across the board.

Okay.

Alright, let's do this.

Because there is no concrete "Cloud and Tifa are together/Cloud and Tifa have romantic feelings like this" in the story. I think its hinted at, clearly. The subtlety exists for both sides.

But there is a concrete "Cloud and Tifa have romantic feelings and have confirmed them with each other," which did take place in the story. Despite the possible in-game deviation that gets harped on so much in this thread, this is what happened in the narrative. Its not a hint, its a statement of what happened. If the urge to say "but teh page 232z!" comes upon you, just refer to what I said about it above. Or what Tres, Ryu, Mako, myself, etc have said many many times before concerning that issue.

TL;DR: Clerith evidence is so subtle it seems to not exist , Cloti evidence is easily located and cited unless you deny it on principle.

And yes, I will argue until SE says Cloud and Tifa are definitely together (no hinting, beating around the bush, blah blah) because of what Nomura said. When he was talking directly about the romantic relationships in FFVII, he started talking about fans imagining as they like. Really... He didn't flat out say "The LT is player interpreted" but he seemed to have.

He said everyone was free to speculate on what had not been revealed. This has been revealed. The FTOIL page is not subtle about this issue, and its not even the be all end all of the proof.

Of course it could.

Ok, glad you can accept that. Now its just one little step from admitting COULD BE love to accepting that it IS love.

He isn't exactly talking about their friendship, the way I see it. He said he no longer felt alone and that Tifa taught him that. It's kind of like feelings of support.

Support that he, again, already had. From the entire team, in fact. They're all his friends, and friends give each other support. Even if he's so dense that he just realized this fact near the end of the game (which hey, its Cloud so I can totally see that as a possibility) he would realize that he had their support all along. That could potentially work with the monologue you're quoting as seen in a vacuum, apart from everything else. It doesn't work so well when you put it with everything else, for instance the fact that Cloud means having Tifa in a way that is kind of different, and that saying so elicits blushing.

The thing is, the young Cloud that was there didn't even seem aware of his present feelings.

There was no young Cloud. There were only fragments of Cloud's mind and personality. One, generally referred to as his subconscious, manifested visually in the form of Child!Cloud. You even get control of this facet of Cloud after the Temple of the Ancients, you can use him to slow down/attempt to stop Cloud from handing the Black Materia to Sephiroth (which is what Cloud's subconscious would do, after all). Being as the statement he makes concerning Complete!Cloud's feelings occurs before the unification of his mind and personality is complete, this facet may not in fact know everything Complete!Cloud knows, but it does know things Cloud would not have known as a child (because said things had not happened yet when Cloud was a child).

If I remember right, he said something like he'll probably be so happy to hear that Tifa cares.

This was discussed not long ago, and this is a case where the English translation is imperfect. I don't remember the exact phrasing that was related to us here in the thread, as per what the Japanese literally translated to, but I do remember it did not include the "probably" and came off as much more definite.

But personally, I don't think it really signifies that Cloud is presently feeling those exact feelings because it's coming from a younger Cloud who did.

It is not coming from a younger Cloud, just a fragment of Cloud's mind that appears to Tifa (and the player, as well as Cloud himself) in the form of Cloud's younger self. Ergo, this does not indicate that the feelings discussed were ONLY from the past. Also, the quotes that have been provided concerning the Lifestream event DO indicate that the feelings are currently being held at the time of the event itself.

It's specified once that, in one version, there are feelings of desire. In everything else, it just says feelings. So I'm taking that to meaning they do so in both.

We are told that mutual romantic feelings were confirmed. We are told this with absolutely no mention of which version it happened in coming up in the text. It is, as Ryu put it, a version agnostic statement. If, then, this romantic confirmation only happened in the HA version, then we know the HA version is what happened. It is official. It therefore doesn't really matter what happened in the LA version, as it is not official to the narrative of the Compilation.

But, for arguments sake, what do you believe, at this time, was shared in the apathetic and short scene?

I agree so much.

If this only meant what it might appear to at first glance. Oh well, a man can dream right?

That's why I don't think either date or Highwind scene is canon. The story just leaves them behind for imagination, technically.

The game might have left both date and HW scene to the imagination, but the continuing story does not.

The date is still up in the air, what information we're given only reminds us that it is optional who comes calling at the Gold Saucer and that Cloud remains totally unaware of any romantic intentions no matter who shows up.

The HAHW scene, on the other hand, has been stressed very heavily. The events that took place there tie into the narrative. We are told, no ifs ands or buts, that mutual romantic feelings were confirmed between Cloud and Tifa. It is no longer up for imagination.

When I say "It all ends up in the same place either way" I mean "It all ends up with Cloud and Tifa together as a couple, raising kids and having a future together."

Well, that isn't at all what I meant?

Oh? What did you mean then?

But I'm happy for you that you aren't like that anymore.

Actually, much like Cloud it would be better to say that I am still very much like that. Its just that, again like Cloud, I got the hell out of the sleepy little country town I lived in and gained access to a larger pool of humanity, therefore vastly increasing my options for people to befriend. Still, I accept your happiness on my behalf with gratitude.

Okay. I agree.

Wow... that's like the third time such agreement has been expressed in this post. I don't think I've ever seen that happen before in the LTD. I thank you for that.

I've made of the other proof something different than you have. We've just come to different conclusions of what their relationship is. It's never been definitely said what their relationship is outside of friends/comrades.

Evidence can be misinterpreted, especially when you view each piece individually instead of as part of a whole. Most especially when you are set against the conclusion that evidence rightly points to. Yes, we have clearly come to different conclusions, hence the debate. No, that does not mean both conclusions are valid.

And again, I direct you to the FTOIL page regarding a definitive statement that they DO have, and have confirmed with each other, romantic feelings. Mutual romantic feelings. For each other. I shall further point out that Cloud chose to start a new life with Tifa, confident that he could succeed because she is with him in a way that is "kind of different" from how she was with him before. That they are raising kids together. That even though they have had some very real issues (guilt/depression/geostigma induced fatalism) they worked through these things and Cloud returned home to his family, where he is said to belong. That they are said to have a future together. That Tifa has been specified to be someone's koibito/beloved/desired person, and the Cloud is the only character this makes any sense for, which indicates that he LOVES and DESIRES her.

I could go on, but that paragraph is pretty meaty already

But he has a love for her, same as them.

No one is denying this.

I'm saying it could be romantic. The possibility is there.

A possibility is not a fact. Clerith cannot be factually supported. If it could be, someone would have done it by now. You can read romance into damn near anything if you want to see it there. So, until you have some support for Cloud having romantic feelings for Aerith, this genuinely cannot be said for certain. And if you DO manage that someday, this will only prove that Cloud has feelings for both girls conclusively. He will still be in a relationship with Tifa either way.

Darth Vader would be proud.

Indeed he would.

I guess. What emotion did you have in mind? I really don't see it right now.

Envy. Though people often forget this, envy is in fact a different emotion from jealousy. Tifa wants to be able to express herself the way Aerith does, and be more forthright with her. She is envious of that quality. She all but says so if you get Tifa for the date sequence.

Now, long before the date, Tifa gets peevish about Aerith discussing her "deal" with Cloud to pay him for services rendered as her bodyguard with one date. Now, I say "deal" because Cloud never actually accepts this arrangement, he refers to himself as her bodyguard during the very scene we're discussing but he never accepts the date as payment, at any of the points where Aerith brings it up.

Now, that said Tifa COULD be jealous that they have a date arranged. However, its entirely possible that Tifa is envious that Aerith could so easily attempt to arrange such a date at all. She wants to be able to do that sort of thing too, to just say "Cloud let's go on a date!" Hence, peevish feelings. It could be jealousy that Cloud is going to go on a date with Aerith (despite him never agreeing, Tifa is human and perfectly capable of jumping to conclusions), it could be envy of Aerith's ability to attempt to arrange such a date with such apparent ease, it could be both.

And as I've said before, whether she was jealous at that time or not, she and Cloud are together in the end, so it doesn't really matter.

[/quote]I meant its picture in the summary, like the Aerith date.[/quote]

I'll agree with the Aerith date being a placeholder picture, since the text that accompanies said picture is what it is. I'm not really sure where you're going with this, however. The picture that accompanies the main text of the FTOIL page (the portion concerned with FFVII that is) matches up with the image chosen. They used a picture of the scene where Cloud and Tifa confirm that they have romantic feelings for one another, the text describes them confirming that they have romantic feelings for one another. How does that come off as "a placeholder" by any definition?

Technically speaking, they had a future that would now be considered the past. Didn't mean this as like a shipping thing.

... ok what? I am seriously baffled as to what your point here is meant to be. How does this relate to the love triangle and its resolution?

And for the record, I say again that while Barret may be related to Tifa's future, she and Cloud have been directly stated to have a future TOGETHER.

Hold on, I need a Band-Aid for these wounds.

Dismiss and diminish my statement if you like, the point stands that the Barret/Tifa thing is bullshit either way and needs to stop being brought up.

Well, it seems like people here are quite serious and I'm not so it's my fault.

Might want to work on your wording to make sure its clear when you're joking. I've had some issues with that myself, and still do now and then.

Well, Nomura seems to like interpretations... Heh.

Of things that have not been revealed, yes. And it bears repeating that he commonly plays things close to the vest, and is also not the only voice we should listen to regarding the Compilation, being as he is not the only creator who speaks up on the matter.

You know how I do.

That's true. But at a time when he was referring to the relationships, he said fans should imagine and enjoy talking about it.

Was he specifically talking about relationships and nothing else when he said that? I will admit to not remembering the exact quote or where it was made, but I would swear he was speaking of things that had not been revealed in general.

No matter what, so far, Aerith and Tifa are being called Cloud's friends and comrades.

People who are nothing more than friends and comrades don't seem likely to get an entry specifically referring to them on the FTOIL page. Which again, never so much as mentions Aerith's name.

But that's boring, so we took other things to mean something, and we did get separate answers, but it isn't shown that either is the correct one.

We both found meaning, yes. We both found answers to the "who does Cloud love?" question. But, no matter how much you deny it, the correct answer has been shown, quite clearly.

And they don't have to be in a relationship to take care of these kids and live together with Barret.

It is true that a relationship is not necessary to raise kids. Solid Snake and Otacon don't need to be lovers to raise Sunny Gurlukovich despite the massive amounts of Ho Yay between them. But the fact that you don't HAVE to be in a relationship to raise kids is not evidence that a relationship is not present. And Barret does not live at Seventh Heaven, please stop claiming that he does.

It couldn't have been too important if it was never mentioned again.

Most Important Scenes. I bolded the operative word for ya. The HAHW scene is stressed, and the results of said scene lead into Cloud and Tifa's relationship in the parts of the Compilation that follow said scene, both their happy times and their problems. It was important.

Nomura: *drawing in a corner at his desk* "Lulu... FFX... boots... gunswords... zipperbelts..."

Nojima: "Wtf are you doing?"

Yeah, sounds about right to me.

I changed my stance years ago, when I realized it was never said that Cloud loved Aerith in that way and the whole interpretation thing.

See, the above makes perfect sense to me, until we get to the "and the whole interpretation thing" part.

As for everybody else, I'm not sure, but I gave this more thought and I think it's that C/A people believe it's canon but hasn't been outright confirmed.

If its not confirmed, its not canon. That's kind of what canon means, as that word is generally used in this thread.

Like, they/we saw it as "obvious" that Cloud loved her the way we think it did (similar to how you guys think it's obvious he loved Tifa) and doesn't really need to be proven,

This is a debate. It most definitely needs to be proven, and I still find it intriguing that you can continue to say you see it as "obvious" that Cloud loved/loves Aerith romantically yet are unable to support such.

but as far as the LT stands officially, we believe it's about interpretation. Sorry if I'm not making any sense.

So which is it? You see Clerith as obvious and canon, or you really believe there is no canon? I accept your apology, because you are sending a mixed message with the above and thus making less sense than you otherwise could.

Woah, look at those caps.

Justified caps in my estimation.

I read it somewhere in an Ultimania or Dismantled, not sure. I only remember Aerith coming with me at that part when her affection was higher so it seemed right?

No, you just walk up to the party member you want to take with you and press X to talk to them. They then offer to come with you. It is 100% unrelated to affection values. You can only take one, leaving a space open in the party for Cait Sith to force his way into.

It has to happen if she's female - there's no other option.

This is one of the bits that confuses me, the Ryu-post you're responding to with this "it has to happen if she's female" comment was so long ago that I for one have not a clue what you're even talking about.

lol

I'm curious, why was this funny? I mean aside from the fact that its Kingdom Hearts information being discussed in the LTD, which is a different sort of funny imo, what is there to laugh about? Tifa WAS Cloud's light in KH2.

So you would know that your interpretation isn't the only one that can be right.

That doesn't track, sorry. Arguing AGAINST an interpretation that you profess to believe is just as valid as your own doesn't showcase that you could be right at all. Supporting your own position would do that.

And it bears saying again that just because an interpretation can be right does not negate the fact that it can be wrong. The evidence in this case does not support your interpretation. At all. This would indicate that you are, in fact, interpreting the evidence wrong if you have arrived at that interpretation.

Hey, I'm not trying to say you guys are wrong,

Then allow me to echo Ryu's question that you supposedly answered in the portion of your post quoted above, why are you arguing AGAINST Cloti instead of supporting your own position if you're not saying we're wrong?

and remember this. This "interpretation" thing Nomura talks about, I defend it.

Except he didn't say what you seem to think he said. The quote, as it has been laid out here in this thread, does not say "who Cloud loves is open to interpretation" it says the fans are free to imagine and talk about "what has not been revealed." Who Cloud loves has been specified. You are thus defending a nonexistent quote.

I don't accept it, but I felt like I was being a douche so I figured I'd just leave it.

If you do not accept that Cloud stayed because of Tifa and The Promise, despite quotes being supplied where this very reasoning was directly stated, then this debate is entirely hopeless.

Because they're part of a family, and the story kind of revolves around that family while they're taking care of Marlene and Denzel, who notice when they aren't getting along.

Well at least you didn't shove Barret's name in there again. So tell me, if its a platonic relationship then why is Tifa specifically described in terms of a woman who's been left by a man? That isn't a phrase I've ever heard used to describe problems in a platonic relationship.

Didn't say that.

Then what WERE you trying to say? See, if someone attributes the wrong meaning to your words, its helpful to tell that someone what you actually meant as opposed to just claiming that the attributed meaning is not what you meant/said. It's both common courtesy and something of a requirement if you genuinely wish to be understood.

Did it say it was talking about that scene?

It did. We went over this in your absence, I believe.

I went to two different places and they said that. Sorry.

You're not the first to be fooled by the incorrectly dated quotes in question, and probably not the last.

Undying means forever.

He will have feelings for Aerith always, his feelings are undying. We agree so far. But as Ryu said, undying is NOT IMMUTABLE.

If his guilt is gone, that isn't forever. At the end of AC, it was being lifted.

Ok, so granting that his guilt is entirely lifted at the end of AC/C, what undying feeling is left in its wake? Love cannot be supported with any factual evidence, so we're left with what we know for certain. We can certainly say that there was fondness there, friendship, camaraderie, respect. Love? We really can't determine that.

Cloud was like, gtfo guilt.

I picture Cloud literally pointing at the door and saying aloud "Guilt, gtfo!" and it is hilarious. Thanks for that

And right before, Nomura was talking about peoples loves for her. Guilt isn't love.

Putting aside the guilt for a moment, take notice of what you yourself just pointed out. Nomura had been referring to "people's love for her." Plural, people. Unless you think ALL of those people romantically love Aerith, you can't really support the idea that Cloud loves her in such a way using that.

Well, she does get peevish feelings in reaction to Cloud and Aerith together, when Aerith wasn't saying her feelings. But yeah, you could definitely be right.

See above for my thoughts regarding "Tifa's peevish feelings." Tifa can be envious of Aerith's forthright manner even if she is not, at that exact moment, spelling out her feelings. Aerith made an attempt to set up a date with Cloud without any difficulty, something that would be very difficult for Tifa to make herself do considering her personality. And since, again, Cloud never voices nor otherwise indicates agreement to Aerith's proposal, we cannot assume that she is feeling pevish in reaction to Cloud and Aerith together.

Because they're living a different life now, without Sephiroth and all the hell he brought.

How would this, if true, cause Cloud to blush?

Yes, I know.

Then why so focused on what you think Nomura said?

What's wrong with them letting us have our own interpretations? It makes the story more personal for everybody, honestly. It's nice.

I've said before, there is nothing wrong with shipping Clerith, or any pairing for that matter. There is nothing wrong with looking at things from that perspective to enhance your enjoyment, or to personalize the experience for yourself. But, declaring your preference valid in the face of how the narrative actually goes is incorrect.

Renaming the characters makes the story more personal for everybody too, and its nice. But canonically, their names are what SE chose. The leading man may be named Devil in my game, but in truth he's Cloud and always will be. Same difference for the pairings, Clerith might have happened in your mind, but in truth its Cloti and always will be.

It's only really been hinted that Cloud and Tifa could have a relationship. Possibility is there, of course, because it's been left off, but they're officially regarded as friends.

I've already commented on a very similar statement or two in this very post. Its been much more than hinted, it is not left off, they are officially regarded as having confirmed mutual romantic feelings for one another.

It is not this black and white.

But it really is. Where are you seeing shades of grey in what Ryu said? The ultimanias and creator interviews DO give detail to the narrative of the games, novellas, and films. They DO tell us which events happened, and what they mean. And, exactly as he said, then Cloud and Tifa move in and form a family together, just as you'd expect when we're told they belong together and have a future together. What exactly is NOT black and white about that?

Who Cloud loves is not hugely relevant to the story, so what are we contradicting? He did say there are answers, not just one answer, right?

So, was he referring to romance and relationships when he spoke, or multiple issues? I repeat what's been said before one more time, he said that what has not been revealed is open to the imagination. Who Cloud loves, regardless of the relevance of such to the story, has been revealed. Ergo, not what he was talking about.

And while I do not remember the posts from way back when well enough to comment on the contradictory answers being referred to, I will say if Ryu says they're there he's more than likely right. Dude is rather anal about this sort of thing, you see.

"I think I'm beginning to understand. An answer from the planet. The Promised Land. I think I can meet her...there."

That is my answer and I stick with it.

And what answer does this provide? Cloud thinks he can meet "her" there. Tifa is the one who expresses an actual desire to do that. No indications of romance between Cloud and Aerith are revealed in this. So... what are you sticking with, precisely?

We'll take from it whatever we see but no one said that we're wrong?

You're wrong. There, I said it. Whether you believe Clerith is canon, or that there is no canon, you are, in a single word, wrong, as the evidence shows.

What does it affect, which girl he likes? What is it contradicting?

What is it contradicting to make incorrect claims about which girl Cloud loves? The narrative itself. Is romance integral to the plot of FFVII? Well, yes actually, considering Tifa's role in reassembling Cloud's mind is only possible due to her importance to him/her being THE ONLY ONE HE WILL ALLOW INTO HIS HEART. Romance may not be the biggest, most importantest thing in the Comp (by a long shot), but it IS a piece of the story. So yes, who Cloud "likes" does have its effects. And as a piece of the story, making incorrect claims about who Cloud loves contradicts said story.

 

[Master Bates]

Excuse me. This isn't entirely relevant to the current discussion, but... just what is the LTD's standing in the Japanese communities? I'm genuinely curious. Is it, like... "over"? I'm asking about the popular consensus, btw.

But yes DoC is bad and SE should feel bad.

But I think SE is a pretty cool guy. Eh creates the compilation and doesnt afraid of anything.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Hello guys this is my first post here but I've following all the LTD threads I can find for around two years already. I have never played the game so I have a questions.

How long did Cloud and Aerith knew each other? If it's just two to three weeks according to some posts then is it possible that an amnesiac, mentally 16 individual with serious identity problems fall geniunely in love in that time period?
Will this be relevant to the debate?

I have never fallen in love with anybody and I had never been to a relationship so my opinions might not be valid, but I think a 3 week speculative romance is weak against two people living together for more than a year raising a family.

No matter how much hate it gets, I love the movie Titanic and pardon me since I'm going to use it as an example. SPOILERS FOR TITANIC:

Yeah, Rose and Jack fell passionately in love in a few days then Jack dies but Rose carries her undying feeling until she dies old and happy. But she moved on, become a successful woman and married. I don't think movie would have justice if she had married and stayed unhappy because of her love for Jack. And it is also made clear that tragedy was the main component, romance second. I think this (logic/interpretation) can be applied to in FFVII, whether Cloud loved Aerith or not it cannot be denied that Tifa and their family makes him happy. It's plain stated that he's just afraid of losing them.

Sorry for the Titanic reference and correct me if I said something wrong. It's my first post here and I hope it's not a bad one.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anastar, I'm going to go ahead and respond to your post now, but I still expect you to respond to the rest of my previous post.

Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

Bah - you really don't understand women very well, do you?

I was in a similar situation in college. I was romantically interested in this guy who was going out with a friend of mine. I didn't try to interfere with their relationship in any way, but I kept hoping he'd take an interest in me at some point. After he broke up with her, I was still hoping that he would. It never happened, and eventually I moved on - but he and I remain good friends until this day.

So, rather than get annoyed at your comment about not understanding women, I decided to humor your point -- I'll be the first to admit I don't always understand even the women I'm closest to -- and see what women had to say on the subject. While I can't readily verify all of the information I'm about to tell you (you'll have to take my word for some of it), given that you've made plenty of appeals to authority on the topic of the Japanese language without verifying the people or claims involved, I don't think this is particularly unfair of me.

Without giving any background information on the LTD or revealing my stance on the following question, I said that I was having a discussion with someone about the matter and needed the input of women. I asked four women what they believed to be emotionally stronger: to wait indefinitely for a man to return their affections when he knows how they feel and has made it clear that he has no interest in being more than platonic friends, or to move on and find someone who would feel the same way about them.

I asked two coworkers (one a 24-year-old and one a 63-year-old), as well as my wife (20 years old) and my mother-in-law (43). Without giving out too much of their personal information, all four have been married, currently are married, or are in a long-term relationship involving cohabitation. All four are also career women. My coworkers operate machines in a factory, my wife works in the emergency room of a large hospital, and her mother is a flight paramedic.

I didn't copy exactly what the first two said, but while both said being a little patient is normal, they would consider a woman who let herself stay in that situation for a long period of time to be a pushover who lacked self respect.

My wife's response was "It takes strength to REALLY be okay with someone not loving you," and agreed with the above perspectives. Her mom had the most in-depth response, and said "Well, it does take great strength to wait around for someone, but is it self-defeating? To love someone who is emotionally unavailable would require patience, but is it because you deep down know that that person is unobtainable, so you really are not taking any risk? By walking away you are empowering yourself and promoting your self worth that your love shouldn't be thrown away at someone who will never reciprocate or appreciate it."

Again, I didn't give any of them any information on the LTD or why I was asking, other than that I was having a discussion with someone about the topic.

For the record, my wife does have the vaguest knowledge about the LTD, but finds the whole concept and discussion of it retarded. The one time she asked to look at some information about it, she thought the "Do you love me?" scene sounded like a woman in a relationship who was worried that her boyfriend was drifting away. She said if that was supposed to be the dude's platonic roommate sneaking into his room in the middle of the night to ask him if he loved her, then Tifa was creepy.

And that's coming from a chick who likes "Twilight."

Tres

In the first place,"their home" can grammatically mean "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's home". Barret can easily be part of "their", especially since the story is written in third person.

It couldn't, no. Ryu explained why, so I'll just quote him:

No.
It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey

The full context of the sentence reveals that 'their' is the same as 'two of them.'
The sentence does not make sense if you insert a third person into the pronoun only to remove them a second later with no indication.

In any event, the Japanese text makes who "their" pertains to indisputable: "ティファとクラウドの家."

In the second place, he may be calling it "Cloud and Tifa's home" because that's where Cloud and Tifa are living. Case of Tifa makes it very obvious that Barret's planning to live there with them while he's helping to build it. Plus, Case of Tifa shows that it was all Barret's idea to start a business together with Cloud and Tifa, which is why the house was built. Barret was planning to stay - Case of Barret makes it clear that the only reason he left was to find redemption for his sins.

Being with Marlene gave him peace of mind; he felt guilty for putting off action just one more day. He knew he had to leave, even if he had no purpose. Put some space between him and his heart's crutch, bear himself to the wilds. This was a "quick-fix" departure.. ~Case of Barret

He wanted to put space between himself and Marlene because she is his "heart's crutch". He didn't think he could find redemption with Marlene at his side.

Case of Barret says at the beginning that Barret "felt guilty for putting off action just one more day" before he left, so that tells us he'd known he would be leaving for a while.

Also, it wasn't Barret who called it Cloud and Tifa's place. It was the narrative voice. As you mentioned, the story was written in the third-person. That third-person voice of the narrative called it Cloud and Tifa's.

Why is Tifa talking about taking off to settling her past (like Barret) if the plan is to live here with Cloud and build a family?

Is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past? Ultimately, she seeks redemption right there by -- as Barret bid her to do -- trying to prove she could give, not just take.

Maybe so, but Barret had to point that out to Tifa. In Case of Tifa, we see that Tifa was thinking of taking off to settle her sins, too, before Barret said that to her.

To be accurate, it isn't shown that she was thinking of taking off as well. She merely responded to Barret's announcement by saying that she wanted to settle her past as well.

Also, again, is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past?

And if Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, it could be because Cloud has reasons for leaving, too. However, my original question remains - why would Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place"? If this is supposed to be "Cloud and Tifa's place", then she shouldn't even be wondering whether Cloud thinks of it as Tifa's place alone.

I did answer your question, though. She was surprised that Barret left, and probably worried Cloud might think about leaving too. She tends to be insecure.

Nonetheless, the narrative does call it Cloud and Tifa's home, so that's what it was.

After Barret left. What was it before Barret left? Was Barret staying at "Cloud and Tifa's home", or was the Seventh Heaven "Cloud, Barret, and Tifa's home" before Barret left on a journey to settle his sins?

It was Cloud and Tifa's home. That's what the story calls it.

By the way, while I take no issue with the notion that Barret is planning on coming back, I do feel the need to point out that you're using the word "journey" wrong. There's nothing inherent in the word itself that implies a return:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/journey

Okay, but what about after Barret left? Do the girls continue sharing a room until Denzel arrives?

It's impossible to say for sure, but as Ryu has mentioned many times, there's nothing requisite about Cloud leaving the room in order for Marlene to sleep in a bed with Tifa anyway.

But Barret may be calling it Cloud and Tifa's place simply because that's where they are living at that time.

Just to reiterate, Barret didn't call it that. The voice of the narrative did.

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though.

That doesn't entail that Barret's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven when he returns, either.

You didn't really rebut the point there. It's officially Cloud and Tifa's home, so if you want to suggest that it will be Barret's home as well at a later date, you're going to need to substantiate the point with more than suggesting the possibility alone.

Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.

You're being completely ridiculous here. Not to mention insulting countless real families.

Have you never (you have; I'm just humoring the notion for the sake of argument) seen a family in which there is a step-parent whose step-child addresses them by their first name? And still addresses their biological parent -- the one outside the home (i.e. not part of the nuclear family) -- as "mom" or "dad"?

And you're very much wrong about Denzel, by the way. His 10th AU profile says that he looks at Cloud and Tifa as parents:

一緒に暮らしている期間はまだ短いが、 クラウドとティファを両親のように慕っており、彼らとの絆は強い

He calls them by their names, nonetheless.

That's a fair enough response, I suppose, at least for their initial arrangements. What about after Barret had gone?

Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.

So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.

So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?

I personally see issues with it (e.g. it's asking for trouble to be roommates when one person has stated romantic intentions and the other doesn't), and I don't see why they would continue that arrangement indefinitely, but that's a reasonable enough response.

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then? It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.

Whether he meant it romantically or no, he said that was his intention. If you want to argue that it wasn't -- or that he changed his mind -- you need to do more than say that it might be the case in the absence of no one ever bothering to inform us.

Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too.

Can you substantiate this, or is it merely "possible," despite what Cloud had said were his intentions? And -- as with Tifa and settling her past -- why does Cloud settling his necessitate leaving Tifa behind? Even if he went elsewhere, why would that necessitate leaving her?

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

You just said Barret definitely planned to stay at Seventh Heaven. Please pick a consistent position.

It pretty much says that in Tifa's profile:

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
......
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It doesn't say that, though. You're still leaving out parts of that quote. What it says is that Tifa's irritation related to Aerith stems from how he's let his guilt over her death drag him into depression:

(bold added for emphasis)

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

And the same part of Tifa's profile says that Aerith was/is (not specified) a "love rival" to Tifa:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud" is in present tense.

"Aerith, who can also be called a love rival" is once again in present tense.

"she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith" is also in present tense.

"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC" is also in present tense.

So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.

Speaking of picking a consistent position, why won't you do so on whether the love triangle has a canon outcome, or whether it's open-ended? Just a few paragraphs earlier, you said this:

And you seem to forget that I'm saying this COULD be happening as easily as your idea of their relationship COULD be happening. Personally, I think it's up to interpretation, and that either interpretation is possible.

Then here you say that the low affection Highwind scene is indicated to have taken place (despite the story summary from the same book explicitly using the high affection version) -- a scene which, elsewhere in the same post, you claim is all about Cloud being in love with Aerith:

So, Cloud CAN love Tifa, according to the HA version - optionally. But, in the LA version, Cloud's still in love with Aerith - optionally.

Which itself is a baseless claim you can in no way substantiate.

In any case, I need to quote Ryu's response to your use of that quote, because I know he won't PM his response to you, but you need to see at least that part of it:

To ANYONE defending Anastar, THIS is your evidence she's doing this deliberately. Tres JUST provided her with the rest of that quote, and SHE IGNORED IT. She's trying to IGNORE the ACTUAL EXPLANATION of those complicated feelings for those she would prefer to be the case.
IT'S WILLFUL, SHE'S PURPOSELY DISHONEST. QED.

I must agree with him. In two back-to-back posts, you've quoted everything from that passage in the 10th AU except the sentence that begins "This is due to the fact that ...." In your previous post, you quoted everything after that line. In your current post, you quoted everything before it.

Why will you quote everything that falls on either side, but not that line? One can only conclude that you won't acknowledge the line because it undermines the claim you make about the rest of the quote.

Here, for the record, is the full passage, with the sentence you keep ignoring bolded, underlined and italicized:

Compilation Check
A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
「Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.
Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

That is the full quote, with its full context. To ignore that sentence is dishonest. You need to prove us wrong on this, because it's making you look bad.

That doesn't match the game mechanics, though. Cloud doesn't have an affection rating. Tifa does. Her feelings are the ones the player manipulates.

But Tifa's affection level is the result of Cloud's ACTIONS or WORDS toward Tifa (or Aerith). As an example:

When everyone lands in the sewer:
- Talk to Aeris first: (+3 Aeris)
- Talk to Tifa first: (+3 Tifa)
Source: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt

It's easy to assume that Cloud is acting according to how he feels. If you like one girl more than the other, then it's normal to treat and talk to the girl you like better in a more favorable way than you treat the other. The way Cloud acts and talks is also an indication of how he feels.

Is it really? The Cloud who we make those choices with is an illusion. Cloud himself calls that person an illusion.

What you've said is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa will fluctuate to match hers for him -- but you're also saying that her feelings for him are dependent on his feelings for Aerith. Which is the dependent and independent variable here?

Actually, no. I'm not saying that.

I said that Tifa's interest in a relationship with Cloud will change. She may still be attracted to him and still be very fond of him, while at the same time she is not interested in a relationship with him.

I'll just quote Ryu here:

You're not answering his
question. He's asking if Tifa's feelings match Cloud's OR if hers are dependant on his feelings for Aerith. You HAVE said both before. Tres is asking which set of feelings actually affects the others.

That also doesn't really make sense because the player doesn't have options to act nasty toward Tifa (e.g. there's no option to call her the slum drunk).

You don't have to "be nasty" to Tifa to subtract points from Tifa's affection level.

I'm well aware of that. You're the one who claimed you did have to:

When Cloud is nice to Tifa, then his affection for her goes up. That happens in RL, doesn't it? When you have good interactions with someone, you get to like them more. When Cloud isn't nice to Tifa, then his affection level for her goes down. Again, that happens in RL - you act nasty to someone when you don't like them. When Cloud acts nasty to Tifa, her affection goes down.

For that matter, one can get the high affection Highwind scene even if they didn't get Tifa for the date.

And that could be interpreted to mean that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa.

Ryu's response says it best:

You can get the YUFFIE DATE and the High Highwind scene, Anastar. Does he love Yuffie and Tifa, then.

Easy.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.

"Interested in a relationship with Jessie"? That's got to be the most ridiculous claim yet made in an LTD thread. No Ultimania has ever suggested this as even a possibility.

And for that matter, could it not be that he was just being slightly polite if he says "Looking forward to it"? Hell, even sarcastic? He has to be interested in a relationship with this chick he's known for about half an hour and whose name he didn't even care to learn?

And, again, what does his conversation with Jessie have to do with Tifa? She's not even there.

Also, more from Ryu worth reading:

And so Tifa's affection for Cloud changes based on a conversation she never hears?
Barret likes Cloud more because he gives Marlene a flower? Because Cloud says Barret is his boyfriend when Corneo asks?
And Cloud dislikes Aerith so he pushes barrels in her way. Those are all consequences of your silliness, Anastar.

Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.

Ryu:

So, that's ENTIRELY INDEPENDANT of his affection for them. Can you be consistent about this at all?

Fair question.

Because if he says that, she thinks he's about to die. (If you pick the opposite, he says not to worry about him.) So if you pick the other one, Tifa's remembering her fondness for him before Cloud dies. She even tries to grab him as he falls away, but fails.

Ryu again:

She reaches for him in both versions. And, so, does Cloud play strong for Barret when he tells Tifa to 'Be strong?'

Again, a fair question. Barret's affection rating toward Cloud increases if the player has him say "Be strong."

So, since you say the affection values are all about how Cloud treats them -- and that how he treats them is based on his affection for them -- was Cloud trying to look strong for Barret here?

Aw, come on - that's unfair. Even the person who wrote the Date Mech guide at http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/info/tf_date.txt says that he/she doesn't know why it's that way.

Ryu:

It's perfectly fair and valid. It's a perfect example of how stupid and arbitrary the whole mechanic is.

But... I would think it would be like this. If Cloud asks Tifa if she's alright, then Cloud thinks she needs help. If Cloud asks Tifa to help him find Aerith, then Cloud thinks Tifa's a good ally to have in a fight.

Ryu, one more time:

So, either way, Cloud shows concern over her or he shows he thinks favorably of her. Where's the negative ? YOU SAID
"Tifa's affection level goes up when Cloud is nice to her. Tifa's affection level goes down when Cloud isn't nice to her." But BOTH OF THOSE are positive towards Tifa by your own reading.

Tres's question "Why treat an inherently illogical, completely arbitrary game mechanic as related to the narrative?" still stands.

 

[Theozilla]

Hello guys this is my first post here but I've following all the LTD threads I can find for around two years already. I have never played the game so I have a questions.

How long did Cloud and Aerith knew each other? If it's just two to three weeks according to some posts then is it possible that an amnesiac, mentally 16 individual with serious identity problems fall geniunely in love in that time period?
Will this be relevant to the debate?

I have never fallen in love with anybody and I had never been to a relationship so my opinions might not be valid, but I think a 3 week speculative romance is weak against two people living together for more than a year raising a family.

No matter how much hate it gets, I love the movie Titanic and pardon me since I'm going to use it as an example. SPOILERS FOR TITANIC:

Yeah, Rose and Jack fell passionately in love in a few days then Jack dies but Rose carries her undying feeling until she dies old and happy. But she moved on, become a successful woman and married. I don't think movie would have justice if she had married and stayed unhappy because of her love for Jack. And it is also made clear that tragedy was the main component, romance second. I think this (logic/interpretation) can be applied to in FFVII, whether Cloud loved Aerith or not it cannot be denied that Tifa and their family makes him happy. It's plain stated that he's just afraid of losing them.

Sorry for the Titanic reference and correct me if I said something wrong. It's my first post here and I hope it's not a bad one.

Welcome to the forums!

As for time spent together, well according to the Lifestream.net's Timeline (which is based on the information from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania and Crisis Core Ultimania) the original Final Fantasy VII game begins sometime after 12/9 of the year [ν] – εуλ 0007 and ends sometime during the last third of January of the year [ν] – εуλ 0008. So Cloud and Aerith knew each other for about a month (or two at most) before she died.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Welcome to the forums!

As for time spent together, well according to the Lifestream.net's Timeline (which is based on the information from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania and Crisis Core Ultimania) the original Final Fantasy VII game begins sometime after 12/9 of the year [ν] – εуλ 0007 and ends sometime during the last third of January of the year [ν] – εуλ 0008. So Cloud and Aerith knew each other for about a month (or two at most) before she died.

Actually, let me cut in on this. The game begins on 12/9, just past midnight as best as we can tell (It could be just before midnight, but that's one day less, and I'll fudge on the side of caution)
Cloud getting back his memory and the party killing Hojo all happen before the new year ticks over. That's 3 weeks and one spare for all of discs 1 and 2.
Problem- After Aerith dies, there is a missing week after Cloud hands over the Black Materia and falls into the Lifestream. We have 15 days left. So even assuming that pretty much the entire game after Aerith's death happens ASAP, you still only get two weeks to know her in.
More likely, you had one week, with the rest of disc 2 happening over the course of a week and the extra day.

Danseru-kun, welcome to the forums, play FF7.

Aerbear, I'll respond to you in a bit.

 

[Celes Chere]

have never fallen in love with anybody and I had never been to a relationship so my opinions might not be valid, but I think a 3 week speculative romance is weak against two people living together for more than a year raising a family.

No matter how much hate it gets, I love the movie Titanic and pardon me since I'm going to use it as an example. SPOILERS FOR TITANIC:

Yeah, Rose and Jack fell passionately in love in a few days then Jack dies but Rose carries her undying feeling until she dies old and happy. But she moved on, become a successful woman and married. I don't think movie would have justice if she had married and stayed unhappy because of her love for Jack. And it is also made clear that tragedy was the main component, romance second. I think this (logic/interpretation) can be applied to in FFVII, whether Cloud loved Aerith or not it cannot be denied that Tifa and their family makes him happy. It's plain stated that he's just afraid of losing them.

Sorry for the Titanic reference and correct me if I said something wrong. It's my first post here and I hope it's not a bad one.

Welcome! Your post isn't bad at all. This is how I feel too - it's not really the time frame that I am against, but rather the fact that living together, starting a new life together, and raising children are all heavier implications of romance than Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's body guard that one time. I also don't like that some people will call Zack x Aerith past love, puppy love, and that it did not last a long time but will turn right around and say that Cloud x Aerith ISN'T all of those things. Aerith died, Cloud knew her in the past. Since she does not appear until AC/ACC yes, what they had was in the past and Cloud (if he did love Aerith) very well could have moved on just like some claim Aerith did with Zack. Secondly, Aerith knew Zack longer than she knew Cloud and yet some are quick to say that Zack and Aerith didn't have time to form a strong relationship which just is not true. :I

And I love the movie Titanic too, no hate here. I respect the opinion, but that's all it is here and I don't agree the parallel in that and FFVII exists. It could be that Cloud loved Aerith, she died, and he moved on (while still keeping her in his heart). Many people believe that is exactly what Aerith did with Zack. I on the other hand believe Aerith still loves Zack by the end of ACC, and that Cloud has always loved Tifa. Idk, it just seems the most obvious to me with the story flow. It seems kind of weird that they'd pair Cloud and Aerith and have Zack and Tifa's feelings unrequited, especially when they went through all the trouble of showing us Cloud and Tifa's / Zack and Aerith's past history. For Zack and Aerith it was a sincere love and for Cloud and Tifa it was a dim crush... not sure why they'd create that plot line at all if it meant nothing.

 

[Dashell]

on the relationship issue, since I'm a woman ... I know what it's like to be in love with someone who doesn't feel the same way. I always wanted to help her, to be with her to do everything for her... I can't honestly imagine myself living with her because it would have been too painful. I can imagine being friends and what not, but living with her and stuff... yeah I really can't picture that. It'd hurt to much.

Also if I had a friend, male or female, in the situation Anastar is describing for Tifa, I'd tell them to try to move on, or move out or get on with their life. Because I know it'd have to be painful for them and I'd hate to see themselves putting themselves in that hurtful situation. Also since I missed this:

Easy.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.

THAT means he's interested in a relationship with Jessie, but moving in with Tifa, raising kids with her, and telling her he has her by his side now in a way different than before means friendship? I'm sorry but you're being really silly now


EDIT:

Excuse me. This isn't entirely relevant to the current discussion, but... just what is the LTD's standing in the Japanese communities? I'm genuinely curious. Is it, like... "over"? I'm asking about the popular consensus, btw.

Okay I can't read Japanese perfectly but... I recently looked for LTD stuff in Japan and I couldn't find anything current. The most current was when CoLW came out and there was a topic with like 500 replies with like maybe at most 10 Clerith posts and most of the rest were Clotis. They were even discussing the meaning of koibito XD Someone was also angry at Nojima for saying "Cloud is Aerith's koibito" because it screwed up their view of the LTD

When I looked up the phrase "Cloti is official" I got a lot of people saying it without saying why ("Since Cloti is canon" "We know Cloti is canon" etc..., others used koibito and others used the "feelings" quote and one even used the FTOIL page. When I looked up "Clerith is official" some of the responses had a negative afterward (so it was saying Clerith is NOT official) some of them were saying "IF Clerith is official" and a few people used CoLW to say it was official. But honestly, I don't know if I"m the best person to ask on the matter, but that's what I noticed. I plan to do more research on this later, but safe to say, it's pretty dead in Japan. Even more so than here.

 

[Danseru-kun]

So even assuming that pretty much the entire game after Aerith's death happens ASAP, you still only get two weeks to know her in.
More likely, you had one week, with the rest of disc 2 happening over the course of a week and the extra day.

That's too short for a genuine romance. Even if he has learned to love her (despite his mental condition,) I don't think it would make sense that he will have lingering desire to be with her that would keep him from loving another woman.

Even though Cloud is a fictional character, we can all agree that reflects a realistic human being. With this, I would say that guilt and the pain of loss will linger whether or not he held romantic feelings for Aerith. Real life soldiers cry for their fallen comrades even decades after a war. (You can watch some documentaries for references.)

Yeah, I'm no expert in looking for quotes and I haven't played FF7 (though I played CC, watched ACC and Last Order and researched a lot.) But still, I think Cloud with Tifa makes a lot more sense even without the quotes from the creators.

We cannot argue that just because FF is a "fantasy" we cannot apply real-life psychology. That rips the whole purpose of an RPG or even fictional works in general; we are given characters we can relate to so we can put ourselves in their shoes.

To anyone who has an opposite opinion abound Cloud's capacity for romance, here's some questions:
1. Is it possible for a person who has serious mental problems to have a genuine romantic connection with a person he has known for two weeks?
2. Would it make sense that the reason of his depression in ACC was because he cannot be with her than an incurable disease and the guilt of letting a defenseless woman get stabbed in front of him?

Danseru-kun, welcome to the forums, play FF7.

Thanks for the welcome, I'll play FF7 when I finished Duodecim.