The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

Erotic Materia · Oct 16, 2019

"Sir, this looks nothing like you"

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 16, 2019

Erotic Materia said:
"Sir, this looks nothing like you"

"I've had a kid and some work done."

Jairus · Oct 16, 2019

Roger said:
I think it is a mistake to look at it like this, it's multiple games, one story. The telling of Cloud's character arc will stretch well past this game, we do know that. He needs to still convinced of his own BS at the end of Midgar. I consider that as certain as Aerith still dying.

Oh, I know he won't know the truth about himself yet by the end of Part 1, of course he shouldn't. I'm just saying that in spite of that, he may end up being a bit less cold and a bit more caring by that point in the remake than he was at that point in the OG given the extended time and development in this part of the story. And SE has said that each game in the series will also be a complete story itself. Don't forget that. So that requires some growth and development on Cloud's part by the end of Part 1.

To be honest, I do feel for you. Really. The thrill of being "one vs. many" in the art of discussion isn't ideal for everyone. But, just as TTM pointed out earlier (and was part of my misunderstanding prior), I'm starting to feel that there's truly a split in this conversation with your approach that's causing a jarring effect in how this discussion is going—two different prospects divided by a line that people are expressing they don't want to necessarily cross for character construction reasons.

I'm not thrilled by being outnumbered, sorry if you misunderstood me. And maybe I did get things a bit muddled in how I was trying to present them, though I didn't mean to.

On one side, which is what I'm getting mostly, is that you're proposing that there're certain expressions that can be implemented through dialogue choices or even activity/side events that allow us, the player, to experience something with Jessie, which could also potentially be a part of the more non-optional, narrative impact on Cloud, as a character, moving forward after her death—which, would also be applied to Biggs and Wedge, as well, not necessarily tied to romance for all three in what this means for him. I don't doubt this, as we're getting the premise that this story “goes much deeper into the world and characters of FINAL FANTASY VII than ever before.” So, could this promise allow us to care about these characters more, and also create the opportunity to see this reflected in Cloud himself? Sure. If anything, I am expecting that in the very least for how it would make sense for their characters and their corresponding influence on the plot.

Then, on the other side of the line, you're also emphasizing a much more profound impact, mainly in regards to romanticism, that Jessie specifically could have on Cloud that honestly, if it amounted to what it would be that you're proposing, would be something that would hold meaning and relevance throughout the rest of the story—something that goes beyond the optional, not necessarily player dependent effect that we've seen given to Tifa/Aerith, and should arguably, still be reserved for them only. Especially, in regards to the LTD ideal here that goes beyond whatever Cloud experienced with Yuffie as a "third option". I believe this is where most people are really trying to draw the line in their reasoning of what could be done with Jessie's character in regards to Cloud's own as per romantic storytelling—her impact on his character wouldn't create a "wrench" such as this for the spectrum of his romantic feelings. I think mostly, the idea is that most people here are expressing that this would be unnecessary and ill-placed for Jessie's role in the story anyway.

I wasn't saying that it should be this deep thing that has a long term effect on him across the rest of the story, I think people just assumed that I was. I was just saying that it would be something for his development in Part 1 is all. And why should the LTD ideal never be allowed to be challenged or changed, incidentally? And we don't know that it would be unnecessary or ill-placed because we don't know how SE would do it if they did.

Granted, these two sides of the line don't have to be mutually exclusive in ALL possible varying degrees, but I also don't attribute that setting a limit to either expectation is an attempt to simply just put you down Jairus, nor are we blatantly disregarding the spectrum of possibility (well, not everyone). If anything, we have considered it and provided reasons as to why we don't believe it'll be represented that far, for either side of the line people are talking about. This especially for the romantic aspect for the sake of Cloud's actual character, which for me personally, doesn't fit within even the Part 1 storytelling that he as a character will generate genuine romantic tones with her—something that should arguably thus be recognizable for him personally even after he regains himself later on. I don't believe that's the impact that Jessie, Biggs, or Wedge are meant to have on his character, honestly.

The thing is, even though you guys may have thought about it, you began from a position of being inherently biased against it. So how can anyone expect you guys to come to a different opinion about it when you're starting from the position that you are? And Jessie does have canonical, confirmed feelings for him and interest in him, and as much as they've played it up in the demo alone, let alone the hints from the trailers, it seems likely it'll be addressed one way or another and not simply ignored like it was in the original.

Yes, we don't know exactly what the Remake will entail. But, this doesn't really discount the framework of understanding one could use to surmise what would make sense for the character-narratives in what we know is still important for the story that is FFVII. The "universe of FFVII" is still going to be intact, as Nomura has put it, which this idea goes beyond just simply world-building concepts, but arguably also extends to certain character traits and background/development as well. There's a reasonable capacity we can have in our expectations of what will be expressed or what fits the bill for a story we still know quite a lot about despite the exciting expansion and depth that will be added that goes beyond what the original has done prior.

Yes, but again, they're also changing things from what we knew, so you can't expect everything to be the same or relate in the same way as in the original or make judgements solely from that. Scenes from the original, for example, have already been shown to play out quite differently in the remake. I've said it before, but it can be that very knowledge of the story that can limit people's thinking and willingness to accept new possibilities.

If you believe that Jessie could potentially have a deeper, romantic impact on Cloud's character, not necessarily delegated to and/or dependent on just fun, optional dialogue/activities—then you have that, and that's fine—if that's truly what you're trying to get at other than the optional, player experience aspect. The same way that it is for people to not believe it'll be issued that way for his character and as part of the story even moving forward after her death. Not that I'm turning the cards away from the sake of discussion, but when I can tell people are at the "agree to disagree" stage, along with getting a bit verbal, it seems needless to keep going on something that is mainly hypothetical anyway.

I was only trying to say that, if Jessie were included as a possible third option in the date mechanic for Part 1, it need not be in a comedic fashion the way Yuffie was in the original, is all. That taking that path could affect how certain scenes with her play out and give her path as much seriousness as the other two instead of being the joke that Yuffie's was. I don't expect many references to her or the rest of the trio in the later installments, though I doubt they'll just be forgotten. I know they're just a fraction of Cloud's story, but as Part 1 is just Midgar, they may become a larger part of his story here, and she's a part of that.

You know, the funny thing about this kind of options in games is that often they don’t really exist. They’re a crafty illusion that is more about how the player experiences certain events than about the characters or the story themselves. I currently work in videogame localization and two of my main projects so far have been choice-based games. You’d be amazed by how little the choices weight on the overall text. But that makes sense: the writers can’t create a wildly different game every time a choice appears, so while a character can be upset in choice A and fine in choice B, they still have to go back to the same shared route after said choices have played out, though the choices themselves may add up eventually.

This is especially true for the original game, where the fact that it’s all an illusion is driven home spectacularly when we gradually lose control over Cloud, only to find out that he has been subconsciously role-playing what his sixteen-year-old mind thinks is a cooler, badass version of himself, in an RPG that for many people has exactly that purpose. You can romance Barret to your heart’s content, and everybody should do that because Barret is awesome, but at the end of the day Cloud will still be devastated when Aeris dies because he cared deeply about her, and he will crumble to little pieces when he feels Tifa’s support slip from under him for just a second. That's just how the game is written, romancing Aeris or Tifa or both only amplifies what's already there and cannot be changed. The Cloud romancing Jesse and being crushed by the death of a blossoming love should be fundamentally the same Cloud who, while touched and shocked, is more focused on saving Aeris in that moment in time, and that’s no easy feat. That applies to the later parts as well: what happens in Part 1 should not be erased, but built upon. If a player romances Jesse and in the later parts Cloud is not that affected by her death specifically they'd feel cheated, and rightly so. The fact that it would “only” be optional doesn’t cut it for me.

I understand what you're saying, and there's no reason why Cloud couldn't do what you said about both being hurt by Jessie's loss and wanting to save Aerith. The former can actually fuel the latter, you know. And in the remake, they might not leave immediately to go after her but might take a short time to say goodbye to their lost friends first in some fashion, some farewell sequence akin to Cloud's burial of Aerith, though obviously they can't actually lay them to rest since they've been crushed (whether or not they died before the plate actually came down or not - they might actually go during the attack this time, before it hits). But maybe they could make something and you'd have to gather the materials or whatnot and put it together, I don't know. It's just speculation, of course, but it could work. And if the player took Jessie's path in Part 1, then there could be a few optional lines that come up during the infrequent times the trio might be mentioned again. Nothing overwhelming, of course, but just enough to show that he hasn't forgotten her (again, only if her path was chosen in Part 1). That would address your concerns about it not affecting him later on.

But the only reason I commented in the first place was that I’m afraid you’re zeroing in so much on this tiny aspect that you’re forgetting the big picture. I don’t even blame you, since Square Enix has begged us to only focus on Part 1 for now, but hopefully the remake “series” will be finished by the time we introduce Final Fantasy VII to our grandchildren, and when that finally happens, each Part has to fit into a cohesive whole that doesn't repeat the same concepts and arcs over and over again. Otherwise it’s a just a big mess.

Having Aeris’s death be something unique and unparalleled in the remake series at large and not just her own Part is not necessarily about what I want. It’s about what’s best for this remake, so that when newcomers get to Aeris’s death they’ll understand what the fuss was ever about, and won’t just go “Oh so I guess Aeris is the Jesse of this Part?” You’re right, the remake and the original game are two separate entities. That doesn’t change the fact that the remake should be first and foremost a celebration of what made the game stand out, and Aeris in particular dying just like that, with that kind of impact, was truly special.

Of course it has to fit into a cohesive whole, but as I've said before, Jessie and Aerith's arcs don't have to be the same, nor should they be. How they are implemented can make a big difference, and both can work as possible options for Cloud in Part 1 if they are implemented and developed in different ways that make them each distinct from the other. Doing this avoids the feel of repetition.

People focus on Aerith's death so much that they forget that she wasn't the only one who died. But because she's Aerith, she basically blots out everyone else and her loss seems to be the only one that matters to anyone, comparatively speaking. Which is why I'm glad it won't be in Part 1. This should be the trio's time to shine, maybe more than anyone else, since it's their only game in the series.

Force, I don't appreciate being made fun of, but if you were just trying to lighten the mood and keep things from getting too serious and too far out of hand, then that's fine, I get that. I guess that's what she meant by a "special" ID, hehe.

Roger · Oct 16, 2019

Jairus said:
Oh, I know he won't know the truth about himself yet by the end of Part 1, of course he shouldn't. I'm just saying that in spite of that, he may end up being a bit less cold and a bit more caring by that point in the remake than he was at that point in the OG given the extended time and development in this part of the story. And SE has said that each game in the series will also be a complete story itself. Don't forget that. So that requires some growth and development on Cloud's part by the end of Part 1.

We won't "complete" what we are starting with fighting Shinra, or getting visions of Sephiroth, or finding out Aerith is an Ancient and meeting Rufus, Red XIII, Hojo and headless Jenova. It can't be a complete story, that would sacrifice far too much. SE can say it'll be a complete story all they want, clearly plenty of this game with be set up for pay off later on in the story, yet not in this game.

I wasn't saying that it should be this deep thing that has a long term effect on him across the rest of the story, I think people just assumed that I was. I was just saying that it would be something for his development in Part 1 is all. And why should the LTD ideal never be allowed to be challenged or changed, incidentally? And we don't know that it would be unnecessary or ill-placed because we don't know how SE would do it if they did.

Continuously referring to it as a third option to Tifa and Aerith make it sound like a deep thing. Because what you are building too in the other two options is meant to be deep thing. And yet this too, can only go so far in Part 1. Aerith nor Tifa is gonna be an item with Cloud when they leave Midgar. Having there be a seperate optional Jessie subplot that can be played with romantic undertones that won't affect the Golden Saucer date I can see. Changing around the story from Cloud falling from the plate to meeting Aerith to rejoining AVALANCHE at the plate drop in such a way that Jessie, Tifa and Aerith can all go on some date with Cloud at some point in time in Midgar is a big ask.

a_apple · Oct 16, 2019

Jairus said:
Oh, I know he won't know the truth about himself yet by the end of Part 1, of course he shouldn't. I'm just saying that in spite of that, he may end up being a bit less cold and a bit more caring by that point in the remake than he was at that point in the OG given the extended time and development in this part of the story. And SE has said that each game in the series will also be a complete story itself. Don't forget that. So that requires some growth and development on Cloud's part by the end of Part 1.

I'm not thrilled by being outnumbered, sorry if you misunderstood me. And maybe I did get things a bit muddled in how I was trying to present them, though I didn't mean to.

I wasn't saying that it should be this deep thing that has a long term effect on him across the rest of the story, I think people just assumed that I was. I was just saying that it would be something for his development in Part 1 is all. And why should the LTD ideal never be allowed to be challenged or changed, incidentally? And we don't know that it would be unnecessary or ill-placed because we don't know how SE would do it if they did.

The thing is, even though you guys may have thought about it, you began from a position of being inherently biased against it. So how can anyone expect you guys to come to a different opinion about it when you're starting from the position that you are? And Jessie does have canonical, confirmed feelings for him and interest in him, and as much as they've played it up in the demo alone, let alone the hints from the trailers, it seems likely it'll be addressed one way or another and not simply ignored like it was in the original.

Yes, but again, they're also changing things from what we knew, so you can't expect everything to be the same or relate in the same way as in the original or make judgements solely from that. Scenes from the original, for example, have already been shown to play out quite differently in the remake. I've said it before, but it can be that very knowledge of the story that can limit people's thinking and willingness to accept new possibilities.

I was only trying to say that, if Jessie were included as a possible third option in the date mechanic for Part 1, it need not be in a comedic fashion the way Yuffie was in the original, is all. That taking that path could affect how certain scenes with her play out and give her path as much seriousness as the other two instead of being the joke that Yuffie's was. I don't expect many references to her or the rest of the trio in the later installments, though I doubt they'll just be forgotten. I know they're just a fraction of Cloud's story, but as Part 1 is just Midgar, they may become a larger part of his story here, and she's a part of that.

I understand what you're saying, and there's no reason why Cloud couldn't do what you said about both being hurt by Jessie's loss and wanting to save Aerith. The former can actually fuel the latter, you know. And in the remake, they might not leave immediately to go after her but might take a short time to say goodbye to their lost friends first in some fashion, some farewell sequence akin to Cloud's burial of Aerith, though obviously they can't actually lay them to rest since they've been crushed (whether or not they died before the plate actually came down or not - they might actually go during the attack this time, before it hits). But maybe they could make something and you'd have to gather the materials or whatnot and put it together, I don't know. It's just speculation, of course, but it could work. And if the player took Jessie's path in Part 1, then there could be a few optional lines that come up during the infrequent times the trio might be mentioned again. Nothing overwhelming, of course, but just enough to show that he hasn't forgotten her (again, only if her path was chosen in Part 1). That would address your concerns about it not affecting him later on.

Of course it has to fit into a cohesive whole, but as I've said before, Jessie and Aerith's arcs don't have to be the same, nor should they be. How they are implemented can make a big difference, and both can work as possible options for Cloud in Part 1 if they are implemented and developed in different ways that make them each distinct from the other. Doing this avoids the feel of repetition.

People focus on Aerith's death so much that they forget that she wasn't the only one who died. But because she's Aerith, she basically blots out everyone else and her loss seems to be the only one that matters to anyone, comparatively speaking. Which is why I'm glad it won't be in Part 1. This should be the trio's time to shine, maybe more than anyone else, since it's their only game in the series.

Force, I don't appreciate being made fun of, but if you were just trying to lighten the mood and keep things from getting too serious and too far out of hand, then that's fine, I get that. I guess that's what she meant by a "special" ID, hehe.

I feel like I have to repeat myself, maybe this time these words will get through to you, mate. Jessie is a minor character, there is literally no demand for her. Nothing the trailers showed or devs said ever hinted that she will be anything more than one of your Avalanche buddies. Your obsession with that character seems to make you resist any common sense.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 16, 2019

Jairus said:
And we don't know that it would be unnecessary or ill-placed because we don't know how SE would do it if they did.

In fairness, we do know it's unnecessary. The original game didn't have it, and did not suffer for the lack of having it.

To your larger point now, though. You keep reiterating that we don't how they may do this idea if they did it.

As Roger pointed out, doing this to any significant degree would require a significant reshuffling of the Midgar narrative -- all for the sake of a new sub-sub-plot to an existing sub-plot.

That is a big ask, indeed.

Indulge me for a moment as well, if you will, in looking at a passage from one of my all-time favorite comic reviews:

Failed comics come in many types. Some are the result of catastrophic miscommunications between writer and editor. Some are due to deadline crashes or last-minute changes of plan. Some are basically good ideas marred by inept execution. And then there are stories like these - stories that fail on every level, from the basic concept through to the plot, the research, and the details of the script. Stories where the pacing is shot to hell, and even the dumb entertainment value is almost entirely absent. Stories with nothing to recommend them whatsoever.

For most of us, this proposal is falling into that last sub-category because we simply cannot justify restructuring the plot between Cloud meeting Aerith and seeing the Avalanche trio die; we can't justify diminishing the drama to the impact of Aerith being ripped away from Cloud and the others; and we can't justify diluting Aerith's arc.

I know you will insist that those last two outcomes aren't certainties no matter how much everyone else recognizes them to be, so let me also say that you haven't convinced any of us that there's a payoff to be gained that will justify taking the risk of those outcomes.

We absolutely can't see any reason that makes such a change actually necessary, but we also can't see what could come of it that's worth any of the possible outcomes I mentioned above. At best, it would be something we found ourselves surprised to be fond of despite all contrary expectations -- but it's ultimately not going to be as relevant as anything we already know to expect within the framework of the story.

You might say that we don't know how amazing and beneficial it could end up being -- but again, the existing framework and execution thereof was already remarkable. That's why we're here. That then takes us back to the matter being inarguably unnecessary.

I'll go ahead and grant you, by the way, that it wouldn't be unfair to then ask "Well, if the original FFVII is so stellar, then why remake it at all?" =P

Just between you and I and the dead girls who were into Cloud: I agree. I'm not and never have been convinced that a remake of FFVII was necessary. I do want to play it, though, and I do hope for it to be the best it can be. As such, if someone proposes an idea that I feel doesn't fit with that hope, I'm going to offer honest analysis -- and I hope others do so with me.

I love -- LOVE -- the idea that Rufus is Cloud's half-brother, but I'm not sure that it's a good idea, and I strongly suspect it isn't. As such, I don't think the developers should ever go there.

Likewise, someone really should have had a longer talk with Nick Spencer and Axel Alonso at Marvel about whether turning Captain America into a fucking literal Nazi in the comics for a couple of years (via a magic cube, no joke) was either necessary or a good idea. Not that I think either my pet theory or your passion proposal is as bad as all that, but there's something to be said for listening to a voice of reason.

Despite misgivings from most everyone, I gave the Nazi Cap story a chance (don't try to tell me I didn't), I read every issue about it, and it still didn't cement itself as having been a particularly good idea despite being competently executed for the most part. It wasn't interesting enough to justify itself, it had nothing to say about Captain America that could only be said via this method, and it ultimately didn't add anything to him other than a bizarre wrinkle he would have honestly been better off without.

It may have still been better than that Wolverine storyline with the wolf people, but both ideas are excellent exhibits to illustrate the adage that just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. Some ideas, even played out to their best possible execution, can't warrant more positive criticism than "At least it's still pretty to look at."

I am by no means trying to tell you to stop wanting your proposal, nor do I think you should stop wanting it. All I want is for you to stop with crap like this:

Jairus said:
The thing is, even though you guys may have thought about it, you began from a position of being inherently biased against it.

That is such a load of circular bullcrap reasoning, and I believe you're intelligent enough to know it. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they haven't given something fair consideration.

Would you consider it reasonable to say that you are inherently biased against the remake not including your proposal? Or that you are inherently biased towards that inclusion?

While we're on the topic of inherent bias, by the way, you know how you can be absolutely one hundred percent sure that just ain't true about anyone here where this topic is concerned? Because nobody here had ever even considered that Kitase, et. al. might do that. The notion wasn't even on anyone else's radar to the extent they could feel any particular way about it until you brought it to the forefront of their consideration.

So, if nothing else, feel accomplished in having made that happen.

Now let's talk about where absurd comments like your "inherent bias" insults show that you are starting discussion of this topic from: the premise that your idea is good and that anyone who has a) actually thought about the matter, and b) included your new extra goal post of thinking about the topic "without bias" will agree that the idea is good.

You leave no possibility for an honest, cerebral person to disagree with you. This itself is a dishonest way of discussing a subject. It comes off like a guy insisting that a chick is a bitch simply because she hasn't given him a "real chance" (as defined by him).

Now I'm going to ask you to stop insulting people who have patiently discussed your proposal with you in good faith, and insist that you also begin making good faith responses. So there is no confusion about what I mean by that:

Stop accusing people of being incapable or unwilling to consider your proposals just because they don't approve of your proposals.

We're past the point of that shit qualifying as outright insults, and staff won't allow any more of it. Love your idea, discuss your idea, don't be a dick about it.

Jairus said:
People focus on Aerith's death so much that they forget that she wasn't the only one who died. But because she's Aerith, she basically blots out everyone else and her loss seems to be the only one that matters to anyone, comparatively speaking.

That's something you have to take up with the people who made the game and marketed the game. The very conception of Aerith's death was given special weight, the presentation of the story gave it special weight, the game's marketing and memorabilia gave it special weight, and the developers have continued to give it special weight in interviews for 20 years.

You can't really blame folks for digesting the game as it was designed for consumption.

Jairus · Oct 16, 2019

a_apple said:
I feel like I have to repeat myself, maybe this time these words will get through to you, mate. Jessie is a minor character, there is literally no demand for her. Nothing the trailers showed or devs said ever hinted that she will be anything more than one of your Avalanche buddies. Your obsession with that character seems to make you resist any common sense.

And you're not seeing that nothing they've said indicates she can't or won't optionally be able to be more. You don't speak for the entire FFVII fanbase, so please don't come off sounding like you do.

In fairness, we do know it's unnecessary. The original game didn't have it, and did not suffer for the lack of having it.

To your larger point now, though. You keep reiterating that we don't how they may do this idea if they did it.

As Roger pointed out, doing this to any significant degree would require a significant reshuffling of the Midgar narrative -- all for the sake of a new sub-sub-plot to an existing sub-plot.

You don't know that. The Midgar plot is already going to be expanded and reshuffled anyway. And again what I'm talking about is optional.

For most of us, this proposal is falling into that last sub-category because we simply cannot justify restructuring the plot between Cloud meeting Aerith and seeing the Avalanche trio die; we can't justify diminishing the drama to the impact of Aerith being ripped away from Cloud and the others; and we can't justify diluting Aerith's arc.

I know you will insist that those last two outcomes aren't certainties no matter how much everyone else recognizes them to be, so let me also say that you haven't convinced any of us that there's a payoff to be gained that will justify taking the risk of those outcomes.

We absolutely can't see any reason that makes such a change actually necessary, but we also can't see what could come of it that's worth any of the possible outcomes I mentioned above. At best, it would be something we found ourselves surprised to be fond of despite all contrary expectations -- but it's ultimately not going to be as relevant as anything we already know to expect within the framework of the story.

The thing is, you're automatically assuming it would dilute Aerith and her arc without even allowing that there may be ways to implement such a restructuring that you just don't know about. And the story in between him meeting Aerith and the loss of the trio is already going to be restructured because it's being expanded. So what difference does it make to include an optional arc for Jessie within that already existing restructuring?

Again, just because you can't see a reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and again you seem to be assuming certainty when we still don't know enough about the remake to have that. You probably never expected to see Jessie on a motorcycle with Cloud, for instance, and not only that but in scenes and an entire minigame around it. But it's there, and they did it. So what else could they do that you haven't even ever considered because you don't think it could work?

That is such a load of circular bullcrap reasoning, and I believe you're intelligent enough to know it. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they haven't given something fair consideration.

Would you consider it reasonable to say that you are inherently biased against the remake not including your proposal? Or that you are inherently biased towards that inclusion?

It's only fair consideration if it fits the majority opinion? All I can see are the posts they make, not whatever thought or consideration may have gone into them. And if you're starting from a position where you already don't like an idea, how can one be sure that that predisposition won't affect any reexamination of it? If at least one or two had honestly said that there might be a way it could work even if they didn't like it and that there might be a way they haven't thought of that it could benefit the story, then that would have been one thing. But people don't seem to be willing to do even that much no matter how much they might look at it again.

And as for me, while it would be really nice if it was included in some fashion in the remake, I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it if they do things differently. It's just a game, after all.

While we're on the topic of inherent bias, by the way, you know how you can be absolutely one hundred percent sure that just ain't true about anyone here where this topic is concerned? Because nobody here had ever even considered that Kitase, et. al. might do that. The notion wasn't even on anyone else's radar to the extent they could feel any particular way about it until you brought it to the forefront of their consideration.

So, if nothing else, feel accomplished in having made that happen.

The thing is though, since I have brought it up, the reaction has been largely negative here and seeming to refuse to budge and reexamine and allow for the unknown. One of the things I wanted to do was get people to think of possibilities they hadn't ever considered before and get them to think outside of what they're used to or expecting. I just would like a bit less negativity about the whole thing, is all, and more willingness to step outside the box, as it were.

Now let's talk about where absurd comments like your "inherent bias" insults show that you are starting discussion of this topic from: the premise that your idea is good and that anyone who has a) actually thought about the matter, and b) included your new extra goal post of thinking about the topic "without bias" will agree that the idea is good.

You leave no possibility for an honest, cerebral person to disagree with you. This itself is a dishonest way of discussing a subject. It comes off like a guy insisting that a chick is a bitch simply because she hasn't given him a "real chance" (as defined by him).

Now I'm going to ask you to stop insulting people who have patiently discussed your proposal with you in good faith, and insist that you also begin making good faith responses. So there is no confusion about what I mean by that:

Stop accusing people of being incapable or unwilling to consider your proposals just because they don't approve of your proposals.

We're past the point of that shit qualifying as outright insults, and staff won't allow any more of it. Love your idea, discuss your idea, don't be a dick about it.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, really, and I'm sorry about that. It's just very discouraging when all I see is disagreement and rejection of my idea. I don't mind some disagreement, it's just that it's been so overly one-sided that being surrounded like that makes me defensive and wanting at least somebody to give me some support.

That's something you have to take up with the people who made the game and marketed the game. The very conception of Aerith's death was given special weight, the presentation of the story gave it special weight, the game's marketing and memorabilia gave it special weight, and the developers have continued to give it special weight in interviews for 20 years.

You can't really blame folks for digesting the game as it was designed for consumption.

I suppose that's true. It's just that now that the story is in multiple parts, it doesn't have to be the only such moment anymore.

We won't "complete" what we are starting with fighting Shinra, or getting visions of Sephiroth, or finding out Aerith is an Ancient and meeting Rufus, Red XIII, Hojo and headless Jenova. It can't be a complete story, that would sacrifice far too much. SE can say it'll be a complete story all they want, clearly plenty of this game with be set up for pay off later on in the story, yet not in this game.

I'm just going by what SE themselves have said.

Continuously referring to it as a third option to Tifa and Aerith make it sound like a deep thing. Because what you are building too in the other two options is meant to be deep thing. And yet this too, can only go so far in Part 1. Aerith nor Tifa is gonna be an item with Cloud when they leave Midgar. Having there be a seperate optional Jessie subplot that can be played with romantic undertones that won't affect the Golden Saucer date I can see. Changing around the story from Cloud falling from the plate to meeting Aerith to rejoining AVALANCHE at the plate drop in such a way that Jessie, Tifa and Aerith can all go on some date with Cloud at some point in time in Midgar is a big ask.

Well, I never said the event had to be an actual date, could be just a series of events and scenes with just him and the chosen girl that could convey romantic undertones (like how the Gold Saucer date was a sequence of scenes and events). And I don't think the events of the original are going to play out in a single unbroken sequence like in the original. I think they may be broken up by a lot of new content, leaving plenty of room for such a side event. But what you just said - "Having there be a seperate optional Jessie subplot that can be played with romantic undertones that won't affect the Golden Saucer date" - is basically what I've been trying to present.

The existence of choices-dependent events and scenes allows for that. I know Jessie won't be around for the actual Golden Saucer Date. This would be for Midgar only. When I say third option, what I mean is a third option for Part 1's affection mechanic, if it's present. Not comedic as Yuffie was in the original, but a legitimate optional path for the affection mechanic that can be as serious and poignant as the other two in Part 1. I'm sorry if I've been confusing, I get caught up debating with people and responding to them and sometimes what I mean doesn't come across as well as it should. And what I meant by Jessie not having the limit that Aerith and Tifa have in terms of how far she could potentially go was that, as you said, Aerith and Tifa aren't very likely to be able to be involved with him in that way in Part 1 because of how far their arcs have to go across multiple games. But Jessie, because Part 1 is her only game and her arc only has to span this one game, theoretically could. Though I don't expect her to. I was just speaking hypothetically, is all.

But something to keep in mind is what youffie said, that Jessie doesn't have the baggage relating to Cloud that Aerith and Tifa do, and so that would make any possible potential romantic interaction between her and Cloud new and fresh in a way it wouldn't be with the other two. But again, all up to player choice in Part 1's affection mechanic, as I laid out above.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 17, 2019

Jairus said:
The thing is, you're automatically assuming ...

Jairus. Dude. You first started bringing this subject matter up 34 days ago.

I am no longer confident you understand what the bolded words above entail. =|

Jairus said:
And the story in between him meeting Aerith and the loss of the trio is already going to be restructured because it's being expanded.

I am now confident you do not understand what the bolded words above entail.

OdaDaimyO · Oct 17, 2019

Lets be real here... Cloud Strife as a character isn't presented differently than your "faceless" protagonist in erotic VNs or Hentai flicks, except until to the point when his own story arc takes place. Cloud is a blank slate (emotionally-wise) to give the player the immersion of being him. I mean, look at this scene in the latest trailer, where he is together with the "main girls". I could have the worst case of diarrhea and would still look more happy in a situation like this, then whatever he's trying to emulate. And that's the point! In earlier parts of the game we never really have any insights on his thoughts or what his feelings are, because showing too much would break the immersion. The only time we see him, having any emotional drives at all, are always connected with his visions about Sephiroth (however sad that may sound, especially in this thread :mon:

). And of course, there are peaks in the story, like the plate dropping on Sector Seven, meaningful steps to get him more involved in the overall plot, and I don't think these emotional "pillars" will change in the Remake. Cloud is functioning as lense for the players, to experience the story and characters that are surrounding him. The more we learn about the story, the more we see the true shape of this lense, with all its splinters and dents.

@Jairus What I'm trying to say is, that you shouldn't focus on how much impact Jessie has on Cloud, but more on the possible impact she has FOR THE PLAYERS! (copyright infringement notwithstanding)

I will try to give an example for what I mean:

The way how I see Jessie to play a more prominent role on the narrative (besides the romantic sidestory), is to give us more insight on her motivations behind joining AVALANCHE, to see more of her hacker skills and her curious-, clumsy-

and tomboyish nature. To let her engage more with all the characters, not only Cloud, but also with Barret, Tifa, the city folks and the rest of AVALANCHE.

In the case of surprises, there's a possible scenario that I have in mind. It's only in theory, but lets say Jessie would normally take background checks from people who want to join AVALANCHE. Cloud is an exception, because Tifa's trust in him at that time was enough insurance for the group to let him join. BUT, what if this SOLDIER they encounter on the highway has an argument with Cloud about not recognising him, and doubting if he was in SOLDIER at all? Actually to have him ask a simple question like "Who are you?" (something that already happened with Reno) would be enough to trigger Jessie's curiosity to question Cloud's origin (perhaps her interest in Cloud at this point, was enough to find out more information about him anyway, but now she has an actual reason for doing so). Maybe you guys already know what I'm hinting at... JESSIE DISCOVERS CLOUD'S SECRET!!! :awesome:

Without showing WHAT she discovered obviously, her newly found intel "clouds" her mind to an extend, that she can't focus on her work like she used to (special ID incident). They could show for a blink second Cloud's profile page on her monitor, with that, new players still have no indication this could be something relevant and don't see the whole picture, but OG players will get the idea. After the group reassembles on the construction side under the Sector Five plate, Jessie apologises for the ID and tells Cloud that she needs to talk with him alone after the bombing trail is over. Their next meeting will be the last, and Jessie, already at deaths door, mutters her last words... something about "I forgive you", Cloud will not understand the meaning behind those words, same case for the new players, but for US, it will be a gut wreching moment, to think that Jessie's last thought before she dies, is about Cloud, BEING A LIAR!!!

And this is only one of many possible scenarios, that could make her character more memorable. The same goes for every character btw.

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 17, 2019

@OdaDaimyO
... Wow. Fuck you for coming up with such a cool idea. =P

If that doesn't happen now, I'm going to be disappointed.

Given that she does plan to make that ID for him and that he "was in SOLDIER," it makes scary sense that she might try accessing (via hacking) his personnel file to get some of his real info, or perhaps his original ID photo if he didn't want to pose for a picture. =P That's a rather memorable (and haunting) idea very much grounded in the original lore and organically expands on what we already know to expect from her character.

Jairus · Oct 17, 2019

The Twilight Mexican said:
Jairus. Dude. You first started bringing this subject matter up 34 days ago.

I am no longer confident you understand what the bolded words above entail. =|

I am now confident you do not understand what the bolded words above entail.

I do understand. I was just saying what it felt like. If I'm wrong, fine. It just didn't feel like it had been carefully considered. Maybe it was. I just want to hear something other than negativity about it, is all. And you didn't bold anything in the second quote, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

Lets be real here... Cloud Strife as a character isn't presented differently than your "faceless" protagonist in erotic VNs or Hentai flicks, except until to the point when his own story arc takes place. Cloud is a blank slate (emotionally-wise) to give the player the immersion of being him. I mean, look at this scene in the latest trailer, where he is together with the "main girls". I could have the worst case of diarrhea and would still look more happy in a situation like this, then whatever he's trying to imply. And that's the point! In earlier parts of the game we never really have any insights on his thoughts or what his feelings are, because showing too much would break the immersion. The only time we see him, having any emotional drives at all, are always connected with his visions about Sephiroth (however sad that may sound, especially in this thread ). And of course, there are peaks in the story, like the plate dropping on Sector Seven, meaningful steps to get him more involved in the overall plot, and I don't think these emotional "pillars" will change in the Remake. Cloud is functioning as lense for the players, to experience the story and characters that are surrounding him. The more we learn about the story, the more we see the true shape of this lense, with all its splinters and dents.

@Jairus What I'm trying to say is, that you shouldn't focus on how much impact Jessie has on Cloud, but more on the possible impact she has FOR THE PLAYERS! (copyright infringement notwithstanding)

Thing is, though, that it worked in the OG because it was a text-based game with more primitive graphics. But in a near photo-real environment with dramatic cutscenes, he's bound to be more active. Sure he's still a lense, but a more active one. And there might be emotional moments he might have outside Sephiroth's visions that they haven't shown - we've only seen a very little bit of the game, so we can't say for sure that that's the only time he'll show any. In the OG, he laughed and joked with Aerith, for instance. And we've already seen him getting irritated with Barret. That's another emotional response. And Jessie can still have a possible optional romantic subplot that doesn't affect anything in later games, like Rog said, without affecting Cloud's ability to be a lens for the player.

I agree that we should see more of her motivations and background and interactions with the other characters. I just think that that can be done without leaving out the possible optional romantic angle with Cloud through the affection mechanic as Rog and I pointed out above. The game is going to be huge, after all. Lots of room for all of that. Your scenario is an interesting one, and I like the idea of her inadvertently stumbling onto his secret, but don't forget that she does have an existing and canonical romantic interest him that's already been shown to some extent in the remake. But there may be a way to tie all of that together, I don't know.

It could cause her some internal conflict because she could be torn between her sense of duty to Barret to warn him that Cloud isn't who he said he was and her feelings for Cloud and knowing that he saved her (at least once in the reactor, twice if they follow the OG where he picks her up when she falls outside, and perhaps again during the motorcycle chase or some other mission together). So she has two secrets she's keeping and doesn't know which one she should reveal, not until the end at the pillar, when she decides to keep the truth about Cloud having never been in SOLDIER to herself because of how she feels about him, wanting to protect him as he protected her. She might then tell him of her feelings for him (deathbed confession sort of thing), the secret she chose to reveal, and his reaction could be dependent on how the player has treated her up to this point via the affection mechanic, with the scene playing out in a somewhat more tender fashion if the player's choices favored her. Just a thought, a possible scenario of my own.

a_apple · Oct 17, 2019

Jairus said:
I do understand. I was just saying what it felt like. If I'm wrong, fine. It just didn't feel like it had been carefully considered. Maybe it was. I just want to hear something other than negativity about it, is all. And you didn't bold anything in the second quote, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

Thing is, though, that it worked in the OG because it was a text-based game with more primitive graphics. But in a near photo-real environment with dramatic cutscenes, he's bound to be more active. Sure he's still a lense, but a more active one. And there might be emotional moments he might have outside Sephiroth's visions that they haven't shown - we've only seen a very little bit of the game, so we can't say for sure that that's the only time he'll show any. In the OG, he laughed and joked with Aerith, for instance. And we've already seen him getting irritated with Barret. That's another emotional response. And Jessie can still have a possible optional romantic subplot that doesn't affect anything in later games, like Rog said, without affecting Cloud's ability to be a lens for the player.

I agree that we should see more of her motivations and background and interactions with the other characters. I just think that that can be done without leaving out the possible optional romantic angle with Cloud through the affection mechanic as Rog and I pointed out above. The game is going to be huge, after all. Lots of room for all of that. Your scenario is an interesting one, and I like the idea of her inadvertently stumbling onto his secret, but don't forget that she does have an existing and canonical romantic interest him that's already been shown to some extent in the remake. But there may be a way to tie all of that together, I don't know.

It could cause her some internal conflict because she could be torn between her sense of duty to Barret to warn him that Cloud isn't who he said he was and her feelings for Cloud and knowing that he saved her (at least once in the reactor, twice if they follow the OG where he picks her up when she falls outside, and perhaps again during the motorcycle chase or some other mission together). So she has two secrets she's keeping and doesn't know which one she should reveal, not until the end at the pillar, when she decides to keep the truth about Cloud having never been in SOLDIER to herself because of how she feels about him, wanting to protect him as he protected her. She might then tell him of her feelings for him (deathbed confession sort of thing), the secret she chose to reveal, and his reaction could be dependent on how the player has treated her up to this point via the affection mechanic, with the scene playing out in a somewhat more tender fashion if the player's choices favored her. Just a thought, a possible scenario of my own.

"and Jessie can still have a romantic subplot"
Just no.

LicoriceAllsorts · Oct 17, 2019

What if Jessie's romantic subplot was not with Cloud but with Biggs? Or Barret? Would that satisfy what you need for Jessie's character? What if the way they expand the first game is not by deepening Cloud's relationships ~~in ways he is not capable of~~ , but by exploring and extending the other characters' relationships with each other?

MelodicEnigma · Oct 17, 2019

Jairus said:
I'm not thrilled by being outnumbered, sorry if you misunderstood me. And maybe I did get things a bit muddled in how I was trying to present them, though I didn't mean to.

Quick note, that statement about the "thrill" was really just that—I wasn't insinuating it was something that you should feel or anything, but the exact opposite, actually. Rereading my line and then your comment, I think I may have worded that wrong initially. Most people don't like to be faced with countless criticism when they're sharing ideas for fun discussion, so I understand why you feel the need to stand your ground ardently when you're faced with something that seems unfair from your point of view; that was the point I was trying to make. My bad about that one.

Also, my apologies for this being a bit long. I'm still new to this site, so hopefully, a "click to expand" will be applied to this long-ass post to ease the scrolling down burden for viewers. lol

Anyway, Jairus, I'm just not sure what it is that you're really trying to achieve here in truly believing that everyone, including myself, is, in fact, being close-minded and inconsiderate towards you without reason (or reasons that you believe are flawed by bias or strict expectation from the original game). Granted, I'm not going to argue that not a single person here is doing that, but the action of placing reservations and evaluations of certain ideas to be expressed in the Remake isn't inherently the same as just putting them down without giving the possibilities any thought or consideration—this of course, like with any thought process coming from a susceptible flawed human, could still happen in an irrational, uncouth manner. For argument sake, if this were the case, of course, you'd feel inclined to continue to push forward with a certain rationale on your own that you feel is more clear—which would typically lead to also evaluating and pointing out said irrationality of the opposing side's logic. But, is that what is really happening here? It's like you're at a point now that the source of this happening is because of the disagreement in general, pinpointing the dissent to be attributed to an inability to see possibilities in the same vein you do. Not to mention, you keep glossing over what people are saying with the rationalization of the "unknown" aspects of the Remake's development. While I do agree there is a certain breathing room in not speaking with such finality here, I don't believe you're completely considering where the denial is actually coming from in regards to the foundation of their or my thought process.

I mean, I don't want my refusal to believe in something that doesn't coincide with the "universe of FFVII" to be dismissed simply because "well, we don't KNOW it won't happen". There are certain times and places that mindset works, and also where it doesn't work and adds nothing to the conversation. But hell, maybe that is subjective on my part. Either way, if anything anyone ever says is going to be dismissed based on the lack of concrete facts of what the game will completely express, why should we even have this discussion in the first place? How could anyone still hold a valid, rational value of what to expect from the game without it being immediately canceled out by not knowing the irrefutable truth of the game's exact development? Why even talk to each other?

Are any of us really putting in that type of effort to not understand each other to preserve our own pride?

Well. Maybe. I can't speak for everyone in the end, anyway, but I can say that as a fellow author, I actually feel like I do understand generally where you're coming from with the initial idea a bit better, hopefully. I'm really not necessarily trying to come at you, like at all. But as per any debate/discussion, I'm going to offer a piece. So, to connect with that, my next point is about the reasoning behind my own specific disagreements towards your idea.

As I've said before, this game very much so will be expanded and packed like a deep-dish pizza by the many facets of storytelling that wasn't achieved or thought of in the original game—this coming from the developer's goal of making this greater than the original itself. I don't disagree with you in a total sense here, by the way. There are plenty of opportunities to be had from understanding we're getting more out of this game than we previously had before, and with a shining hope, to get this in a fruitful and compelling way that fundamentally optimizes every aspect retained in the original's skeleton, and corresponding elements that are more than likely going to be adopted from the years of storytelling advancement (or to some, regression) of the Compilation as a whole. My views were never, and will never, be about keeping this game the "same" as the original—this is very counterintuitive to the acknowledgment of the depth to be added in the first place, and the fact the developers aren't trying to keep themselves chained and bound to certain things. My inherent desire is for it to go beyond the original in many different ways.

So, where does one go from there when entering a conversation about hypothetical romantic scenarios and character development in regards to Jessie and Cloud's relationship?

Rather than making a judgment based solely on the original, which I already acknowledged this game will differ from, I'm coming from several comprehensive frames of storytelling elements that befit what we do know is more than likely going to be a part of the narrative and Cloud's development. This is also including an understanding of thematic analysis and narrative logistics that can be applied to any evaluation of any given story. Even if we don't know the complete, definite layout of the Remake, there are still a lot of things we DO know about this game. It's going to be a different, new experience—I'm betting all my chips on it—but it's not going to be completely unrecognizable to the point where one can't fabricate a cogent expectation and story comprehension for what will, could, and should be implemented. It's still FFVII.

Let's keep in mind, that this "development" of Cloud we're concentrating on is largely the "romantic development" in regards to how Jessie could/would affect the story and Cloud as a character, which goes beyond that of just an optional, conditional romantic expression controlled and induced by the arbitrary player decisions (or Affection Points) that don't truly affect Cloud's feelings as his own person. I have already spoken about my expectations on how she will impact the story in various ways, and also offered how it is misleading to say she won't be a part of his development or agency at all. But, this is about the specific impact of romance per romantic storytelling in FFVII. I know you are talking about optional aspects as to experience for fun, which I'm not opposed to, but by you using the term "development" in regards to his character and the plot, this implies something else that isn't necessarily based on our control.

For anything between Jessie and Cloud, yes, there could be certain romantic tones between the two characters, most likely being pushed by Jessie more so than Cloud himself—her doing this even in ways that aren't necessarily prompted by the player, but is just simply her own expression. She certainly isn't the only one, as Aerith too will be flirty whether you want her to or not. However, where I draw the line in how this finds its place within the narrative is the suggestion of this specific notion having that specific impact on Cloud's specific development within this first Part—most notably in the way in which he retains or confronts this impact with feelings that would suggest more out of Jessie's role in the story for his character. Other than recognizing this development is, and most likely will be, better served with Tifa/Aerith down the line for the overall story (with the origins still being implemented in Part 1), this also comes down to an understanding of Cloud's character in the state of being he is in right now. Having Cloud be cognitive enough of Jessie's feelings, or even feeling it himself to create a sense of romantic development between them, would create a different type of expectation moving forward—if Cloud, as a character, has enough awareness or care for romanticism in his current state, there's no way in hell he won't be able to also notice and confront the obvious emotions stemming from the two main heroines literally hanging on his arms. Especially our beloved flower girl, who is seemingly having a fun time while trying to get those digits from our boy when she damn well knows she doesn't even own a cell phone. If Cloud doesn't feel it when she approaches him in that red dress (she knows exactly what she's doing), then I can't imagine him feeling it towards his interactions with Jessie. And, we still haven't even seen Tifa, either.

Kidding aside, I do believe this type of development here completely deconstructs the idea that Cloud, not the player but as a character, doesn't typically express romantic conflict/interest during the majority of the game—the premise of the original where the "hero wavers between the two heroines" isn't Cloud. The "hero" in this statement is actually the player. Cloud himself isn't "choosing" or dealing with his romantic feelings for both women during the majority of the game, and he has largely been placed as being unaware of their own notions towards him. The closest I believe that comes for that is when Cloud blatantly adverts from telling Aerith that he specifically is there for her (after she truly learns she is the only Ancient, I believe, but I could be wrong). But, even that isn't really a romantically explicit motion anyway as this. While this can be attributed to Aerith "thawing" his icy persona, this isn't completely on the grounds of romantic importance with Aerith, anyway. A lot of it has to do with the general acknowledgment of Aerith's straight-up special and bright personality, which everyone recognizes in some way, even Tifa. The typical harem-like love triangle subplot here isn't being induced by Cloud's own endeavors to be with someone romantically throughout the game, and this is largely due to his own false, detached state of mind, which is a huge part in playing a factor in him regaining his senses and also a recognition of this desire later on, not now. That is something I strongly don't believe should change.

Yes, the Remake COULD completely change that, of course, and have Cloud instead be fully aware of all the thirsty women (half-kidding) around him and for him to also equally exchange this interest the same way Zack would if he truly was living up to the "ladies man" persona that the original was going for. Sure. But, on every ground that challenges this in regards to how it affects the compendium of core storytelling elements that are attached to FFVII—why is it simply irrational and unfair as opposed to being reasonable and logical? Where is the line exactly drawn where someone is stating opposition in the way that it is not considering coherent storytelling for, again, a story we still know a lot about anyway? I'm actually positive you don't mean it in a full way like this in regards to the romantic development. In other words, even with the importance that Aerith has to Cloud, obviously one can still attribute romanticism installed as part of the story's intention of what her character construction is for the story's love triangle. So you ask, what is the harm in having Cloud also have that much or even smaller romantic feelings and intentions towards Jessie?

That's where me saying that it'd be ill-placed comes from. Even expressing this as small romantic development for Cloud as a character, with the role and purpose of a character like Jessie for this first part due to her death—man, I just don't believe it coincides well with everything else that we know he is to gain and express this with at a later time, especially when this is partially explained by what he is dealing with on an existential mental scale right now. This, for where it is emphasized and the reasons it is emphasized, for Tifa/Aerith, makes more sense for how/where/why it fits into the overall story for Cloud's character moving forward. One of them, mind you, he inherently has feelings for that he has been carrying and growing for years and doesn't even know it himself as he is right now.

Also, Jessie's death doesn't have to be seen as a smaller version of what Aerith's is (I never actually saw it that way), but this isn't due to her being "unimportant" or a "side character". Rather, it has everything to do with how we understand the story has unfolded for Cloud's romantic development within the confines of his true/false persona to have him be affected by this in a substantial way later on for Tifa/Aerith, where the actual complex journey of this "love" story is for FFVII (with zombie Zack waving from the back of the car as well). This isn't the same as saying Jessie's death won't affect him at all (as I've stated before), but I also don't believe that should also be a reason to strongly suggest that he, as a character not from us the player, will develop a genuine sense of romantic cognitive expression or feelings with her, even small, because this isn't the place to have it expressed. Which, that comes with the understanding that the romantic interest and impact would be small here for Cloud in that regard. It's because of that it'd behoove me to want that for him, only for it to be overshadowed by the moving plot forward, where its representation isn't nearly as relevant or important by the more romantically inclined aspects of Cloud's character development with Tifa/Aerith.

Could it happen? Yeah, sure. Should it? I don't believe so.

It's perfectly reasonable that there's a limit to what people are expecting when it comes to the romantic storytelling surrounding Jessie's character. Her impact on Cloud, on us, on the story—it doesn't need to be done in a way that introduces a development for Cloud's character that involves a fleeting romantic growth on his part with a character that is largely (but tragically) fleeting in the grand scheme of the story. It isn't necessary, and while I'm all for separating the conditional ideas of "need" and "beneficial" in regards to storytelling, this notion, I earnestly believe, isn't what should be expressed for Jessie's character through Cloud. This isn't dismissing the romantic tones or fun conversations that can be had, but this is still a bit different than what you're suggesting it should mean for his character development.

I mean, Even I enjoyed the simple aspect of her comments towards Cloud when you keep trying to talk to her in the Reactor; the fun comments from the result of just pressing triangle, like:

"Aw, you're choosing me over the reactor? That's sweet, but I'll wait for my turn. Go blow her mind." And "Go on. Shoo."

It's cute.

And, I fully expect we'll get so much more of this type of chatter throughout the game, along with even more in-depth conversation and opportunities to learn about her as a character. I can't wait, that sounds great and makes me want to enjoy the time spent with her character. I'm looking forward to even other interactions with the Avalanche members as well. Yet, still taking a step back and looking at it with a more story-minded lense—I believe her importance for this game, and even towards Cloud, is grounded in more of the fleeting companionship and comradery before her untimely demise, not romantic loss or feeling for his character personally. I'm definitely convinced her death will be a part of his motivation to fight against Shinra, but for romance....There're too many other things to consider moving forward as to why Cloud shouldn't/wouldn't feel or act upon those types of feelings towards her specifically or in this first Part. That's where I stand.

MelodicEnigma · Oct 17, 2019

Jesus. Look at that.

P.S, is there a way to actually do the "click to expand" on one's own post? I also just realize too, but uhh, I don't even see an "edit" option on my post. Is that a restriction for newcomers, or am I doing a dumb?

MelodicEnigma · Oct 17, 2019

[QUOTE="MelodicEnigma, post: 830253, member: 11463"I mean, I don't want my refusal to believe in something that doesn't coincide with the "universe of FFVII" to be dismissed simply because "well, we don't KNOW it won't happen".[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to add here as a part of this (I did, and then erased it and then moved on without thinking back on it), that I understand this also works both ways. That someone also wouldn't want their beliefs/ideas to be dismissed because of assumptions of a game's construction that we aren't 100% in-knowledge of yet. I can feel that to certain degrees, yet, still, time and place. And, I wanted to reinforce that my disagreement on how a "romance path" with Jessie would be implemented in the story and for Cloud's character isn't based on stating some factual insider-knowledge of what additional player experiences will concretely be there in the Remake, but rather, more on the inclinations, or pre-knowledge, about how that path would interact with the narrative themes and character development that more than likely will be there per FFVII as a series—the latter stemming on something that, sure, is debatable in the long run, anyway. The comments Jessie makes (that I mentioned towards the end of my year-long essay up there) are a perfect start to me in what can be expressed by Jessie's character, but in how Cloud expresses reciprocation of that, even if entirely due to an "optional path" WE set him on like in most player-choice games like Mass Effect...I don't see it done in that way. I once said we do have to balance what we don't know and expectation, but as it is, that's going to mean different things for different people moving forward.

youffie · Oct 17, 2019

I just wanted to note that people here have not only considered everything that you’re saying, but they have thoroughly analyzed it from every possible angle, bringing their own points of view, personal preferences, and even new exciting ideas to the table. If you had got a bunch of “looool that sucks!!1!!” then I’d understand. But several eloquent people from around the world have patiently examined every single one of your posts and offered their own thoughts in a civilized manner. I’m not a native English speaker and I’ve never written in an international forum before, so I can assure you that every time I write a post I read it multiple times to be sure I didn’t make too many mistakes and that I conveyed everything I wanted to say with as much care as I possibly can. Which is also why I’ve never posted anything, even though I have the utmost respect for this community and I’ve been lurking here since I was left in a stupor by the very first trailer in 2015.

You’ve every right not to change your mind, but so does everybody else. I know you don’t mean it that way, but please do not dismiss the thousands of words that have been carefully written here as mere negativity, because they’re actually a sign of respect for your intelligence. And I think you know it deep down, otherwise you wouldn’t still be here trying to convince people who you claim treated your points unfairly.

Jairus · Oct 17, 2019

a_apple said:
"and Jessie can still have a romantic subplot"
Just no.

Your opinion, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

What if Jessie's romantic subplot was not with Cloud but with Biggs? Or Barret? Would that satisfy what you need for Jessie's character? What if the way they expand the first game is not by deepening Cloud's relationships in ways he is not capable of , but by exploring and extending the other characters' relationships with each other?

Who says he isn't capable of feeling at least something, even if it's not on the same level as what she feels for him? And canonically, her feelings are for Cloud, not anyone else. That's how they were in the original, and that's what we've seen so far in the remake. That's why any such subplot should go in that direction.

Quick note, that statement about the "thrill" was really just that—I wasn't insinuating it was something that you should feel or anything, but the exact opposite, actually. Rereading my line and then your comment, I think I may have worded that wrong initially. Most people don't like to be faced with countless criticism when they're sharing ideas for fun discussion, so I understand why you feel the need to stand your ground ardently when you're faced with something that seems unfair from your point of view; that was the point I was trying to make. My bad about that one.

Also, my apologies for this being a bit long. I'm still new to this site, so hopefully, a "click to expand" will be applied to this long-ass post to ease the scrolling down burden for viewers. lol

It's okay, Melodic, no harm done.

I mean, I don't want my refusal to believe in something that doesn't coincide with the "universe of FFVII" to be dismissed simply because "well, we don't KNOW it won't happen". There are certain times and places that mindset works, and also where it doesn't work and adds nothing to the conversation. But hell, maybe that is subjective on my part. Either way, if anything anyone ever says is going to be dismissed based on the lack of concrete facts of what the game will completely express, why should we even have this discussion in the first place? How could anyone still hold a valid, rational value of what to expect from the game without it being immediately canceled out by not knowing the irrefutable truth of the game's exact development? Why even talk to each other?

I just want people to allow that there could be ways for such things to work that they haven't thought of or don't know about, that's all. To not think that they've thought of every single possibility and method.

Let's keep in mind, that this "development" of Cloud we're concentrating on is largely the "romantic development" in regards to how Jessie could/would affect the story and Cloud as a character, which goes beyond that of just an optional, conditional romantic expression controlled and induced by the arbitrary player decisions (or Affection Points) that don't truly affect Cloud's feelings as his own person. I have already spoken about my expectations on how she will impact the story in various ways, and also offered how it is misleading to say she won't be a part of his development or agency at all. But, this is about the specific impact of romance per romantic storytelling in FFVII. I know you are talking about optional aspects as to experience for fun, which I'm not opposed to, but by you using the term "development" in regards to his character and the plot, this implies something else that isn't necessarily based on our control.

Maybe I shouldn't have used that term, sorry for confusing you. What I've been trying to say is that she could have a spot in the affection system as a third option for Part 1, and that it need not be comedic like Yuffie's was in the original but could be serious and dramatic like the other two and not a joke.

For anything between Jessie and Cloud, yes, there could be certain romantic tones between the two characters, most likely being pushed by Jessie more so than Cloud himself—her doing this even in ways that aren't necessarily prompted by the player, but is just simply her own expression. She certainly isn't the only one, as Aerith too will be flirty whether you want her to or not. However, where I draw the line in how this finds its place within the narrative is the suggestion of this specific notion having that specific impact on Cloud's specific development within this first Part—most notably in the way in which he retains or confronts this impact with feelings that would suggest more out of Jessie's role in the story for his character. Other than recognizing this development is, and most likely will be, better served with Tifa/Aerith down the line for the overall story (with the origins still being implemented in Part 1), this also comes down to an understanding of Cloud's character in the state of being he is in right now. Having Cloud be cognitive enough of Jessie's feelings, or even feeling it himself to create a sense of romantic development between them, would create a different type of expectation moving forward—if Cloud, as a character, has enough awareness or care for romanticism in his current state, there's no way in hell he won't be able to also notice and confront the obvious emotions stemming from the two main heroines literally hanging on his arms. Especially our beloved flower girl, who is seemingly having a fun time while trying to get those digits from our boy when she damn well knows she doesn't even own a cell phone. If Cloud doesn't feel it when she approaches him in that red dress (she knows exactly what she's doing), then I can't imagine him feeling it towards his interactions with Jessie. And, we still haven't even seen Tifa, either.

Except that Aerith and Tifa won't be doing that until later down the road, as you said, whereas Jessie could touch the beginnings of it now, which could open the way for the others later. And Cloud does react to seeing Aerith in the dress, we saw that in the TGS trailer, so he does have some awareness of that sort of thing.

Kidding aside, I do believe this type of development here completely deconstructs the idea that Cloud, not the player but as a character, doesn't typically express romantic conflict/interest during the majority of the game—the premise of the original where the "hero wavers between the two heroines" isn't Cloud. The "hero" in this statement is actually the player. Cloud himself isn't "choosing" or dealing with his romantic feelings for both women during the majority of the game, and he has largely been placed as being unaware of their own notions towards him. The closest I believe that comes for that is when Cloud blatantly adverts from telling Aerith that he specifically is there for her (after she truly learns she is the only Ancient, I believe, but I could be wrong). But, even that isn't really a romantically explicit motion anyway as this. While this can be attributed to Aerith "thawing" his icy persona, this isn't completely on the grounds of romantic importance with Aerith, anyway. A lot of it has to do with the general acknowledgment of Aerith's straight-up special and bright personality, which everyone recognizes in some way, even Tifa. The typical harem-like love triangle subplot here isn't being induced by Cloud's own endeavors to be with someone romantically throughout the game, and this is largely due to his own false, detached state of mind, which is a huge part in playing a factor in him regaining his senses and also a recognition of this desire later on, not now. That is something I strongly don't believe should change.

Cloud himself doesn't express it simply because it's left to the player to decide, not because he isn't theoretically capable of it. It's a gameplay mechanic, nothing more.

That's where me saying that it'd be ill-placed comes from. Even expressing this as small romantic development for Cloud as a character, with the role and purpose of a character like Jessie for this first part due to her death—man, I just don't believe it coincides well with everything else that we know he is to gain and express this with at a later time, especially when this is partially explained by what he is dealing with on an existential mental scale right now. This, for where it is emphasized and the reasons it is emphasized, for Tifa/Aerith, makes more sense for how/where/why it fits into the overall story for Cloud's character moving forward. One of them, mind you, he inherently has feelings for that he has been carrying and growing for years and doesn't even know it himself as he is right now.

Except that it can be used to show that he is capable of feeling something like that at all. Aerith and Tifa don't have to hog all his attention and interaction and ability to express such things. No matter what his mental state, he is still human, and that means he can still feel even if he doesn't entirely understand what it is he's feeling. Just because Jessie dies doesn't he couldn't ever come to feel a small spark of something for her (if the player makes choices that favor her, that is) after all the time they'll have likely spent together, even if he doesn't recognize what it is until it's too late at their last meeting.

Also, Jessie's death doesn't have to be seen as a smaller version of what Aerith's is (I never actually saw it that way), but this isn't due to her being "unimportant" or a "side character". Rather, it has everything to do with how we understand the story has unfolded for Cloud's romantic development within the confines of his true/false persona to have him be affected by this in a substantial way later on for Tifa/Aerith, where the actual complex journey of this "love" story is for FFVII (with zombie Zack waving from the back of the car as well). This isn't the same as saying Jessie's death won't affect him at all (as I've stated before), but I also don't believe that should also be a reason to strongly suggest that he, as a character not from us the player, will develop a genuine sense of romantic cognitive expression or feelings with her, even small, because this isn't the place to have it expressed. Which, that comes with the understanding that the romantic interest and impact would be small here for Cloud in that regard. It's because of that it'd behoove me to want that for him, only for it to be overshadowed by the moving plot forward, where its representation isn't nearly as relevant or important by the more romantically inclined aspects of Cloud's character development with Tifa/Aerith.

You don't know that such feelings - even small - couldn't be expressed here. They don't always come up when you think they should or when you're expecting them to. See what I said above. He could feel a little of it for her without understanding until it's too late what it is. If the player has favored her through the affection mechanic, that is.

And, I fully expect we'll get so much more of this type of chatter throughout the game, along with even more in-depth conversation and opportunities to learn about her as a character. I can't wait, that sounds great and makes me want to enjoy the time spent with her character. I'm looking forward to even other interactions with the Avalanche members as well. Yet, still taking a step back and looking at it with a more story-minded lense—I believe her importance for this game, and even towards Cloud, is grounded in more of the fleeting companionship and comradery before her untimely demise, not romantic loss or feeling for his character personally. I'm definitely convinced her death will be a part of his motivation to fight against Shinra, but for romance....There're too many other things to consider moving forward as to why Cloud shouldn't/wouldn't feel or act upon those types of feelings towards her specifically or in this first Part. That's where I stand.

Except that she does have canonically confirmed romantic feelings for him, they've already hinted at it in what we've seen of her in the remake so far and it tracks with who she was in the OG where was also confirmed to have those feelings. And he could optionally come to feel a little for her in return (again, dependent on player choice) and still not know how or if to act on it or even recognize it, as I said before.

I just wanted to add here as a part of this (I did, and then erased it and then moved on without thinking back on it), that I understand this also works both ways. That someone also wouldn't want their beliefs/ideas to be dismissed because of assumptions of a game's construction that we aren't 100% in-knowledge of yet. I can feel that to certain degrees, yet, still, time and place. And, I wanted to reinforce that my disagreement on how a "romance path" with Jessie would be implemented in the story and for Cloud's character isn't based on stating some factual insider-knowledge of what additional player experiences will concretely be there in the Remake, but rather, more on the inclinations, or pre-knowledge, about how that path would interact with the narrative themes and character development that more than likely will be there per FFVII as a series—the latter stemming on something that, sure, is debatable in the long run, anyway. The comments Jessie makes (that I mentioned towards the end of my year-long essay up there) are a perfect start to me in what can be expressed by Jessie's character, but in how Cloud expresses reciprocation of that, even if entirely due to an "optional path" WE set him on like in most player-choice games like Mass Effect...I don't see it done in that way. I once said we do have to balance what we don't know and expectation, but as it is, that's going to mean different things for different people moving forward.

I appreciate you laying out your thoughts the way you did and I understand where you're coming from. And I think that an optional path could work, because we know there will be choices in the game, lots of them, and choices-dependent events and scenes. So having the affection mechanic like the OG could be possible, and Jessie as a third option - not everyone likes Aerith and Tifa, after all, and those people shouldn't be ignored - could also work in that regard. Yuffie's place as third in the OG was meant as a joke and to be comedic, but Jessie taking that slot in Part 1 doesn't have to serve the same purpose, and that's what I'm talking about - sorry for repeating it again. A third possible option that's not a joke or a half-measure but a viable path for the affection mechanic for Part 1.

I just wanted to note that people here have not only considered everything that you’re saying, but they have thoroughly analyzed it from every possible angle, bringing their own points of view, personal preferences, and even new exciting ideas to the table. If you had got a bunch of “looool that sucks!!1!!” then I’d understand. But several eloquent people from around the world have patiently examined every single one of your posts and offered their own thoughts in a civilized manner. I’m not a native English speaker and I’ve never written in an international forum before, so I can assure you that every time I write a post I read it multiple times to be sure I didn’t make too many mistakes and that I conveyed everything I wanted to say with as much care as I possibly can. Which is also why I’ve never posted anything, even though I have the utmost respect for this community and I’ve been lurking here since I was left in a stupor by the very first trailer in 2015.

I don't think you can say every possible angle, because nobody knows everything. So there's always some unknown, and it's that that I'm asking people to account for and allow for. Nobody ever expected or thought or even conceived that we'd see Jessie on a motorcycle with Cloud, for example. But we did. And that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. The unknowns like that used to be that nobody ever even probably considered were possible. But SE did it, and they'll likely do more. Just allow for the unexpected and the completely unknown, is all I'm asking, and be willing to allow that SE could have thought of ways and methods that you all here haven't.

Lestat · Oct 17, 2019

Y'all on crack?

The Twilight Mexican · Oct 17, 2019

Jairus said:
I do understand. I was just saying what it felt like. If I'm wrong, fine. It just didn't feel like it had been carefully considered. Maybe it was. I just want to hear something other than negativity about it, is all.

Why do you need folks to pretend to have an approving take on it?

Jairus said:
And you didn't bold anything in the second quote, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

I was still talking about "automatic" and "assumption." :monster:

Erotic Materia · Oct 17, 2019

Ergo said:
Y'all on crack?

I'm considering it, at this point.

Lestat · Oct 17, 2019

pxp · Oct 17, 2019

I honestly can’t believe this is still going on? I thought it had been put to bed a few weeks back in another thread which threatened to be locked, and now it’s just migrated over here.

youffie · Oct 17, 2019

I blame the negative karmic energy generated by the LTD. :mon:

ForceStealer · Oct 17, 2019

pxp said:
I honestly can’t believe this is still going on? I thought it had been put to bed a few weeks back in another thread which threatened to be locked, and now it’s just migrated over here.

Well, it was actively derailing the other thread, whereas it's a little more on-topic here (in terms of objects of Cloud's affections). But there is no denying that it's...exhaustingly circular.

Of course, "Exhaustingly Circular" will be the name of my published omnibus of all of TLS' archived LTD threads, so...

But really, Jairus, your insistence that people either agree and therefore have given adequate thought to your dream or they disagree and have therefore refused to consider what you've said is an (intellectually dishonest) position that will never result in a conclusion.

The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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