Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
Ouch, I’d respectfully disagree with you there. For me, this was nowhere as bad as ‘Attack of the Clones’. Not sure if you want to give ROS a second thought here?
Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!
- Thread starter Charles Xavier
- Start date
Ouch, I’d respectfully disagree with you there. For me, this was nowhere as bad as ‘Attack of the Clones’. Not sure if you want to give ROS a second thought here?
- AKA
- X
There are absolutely Star Wars films with worse editing (George Lucas' slapstick always running too long) & acting (wooden prequel spliced takes), though TRoS gives it a run for its money with its, "How many times can we explicitly say the name of the new Macguffin" with things like Exegol, or the, "Just repeat something a bunch for surprise and comedy" with things like "They fly now?" "They fly now!?" "They fly now." and the fact that it doesn't take any time to breathe. However, none of the other films fundamentally fail at telling a cohesive, important, and meaningful Star Wars story as spectacularly as TRoS does. Especially after rewatching all 10 films prior to seeing Episode IX, there are really big parts of the otherwise rough prequel films that I very much appreciate and hold really impactful and meaningful messages about the rest of the series in a way that this final film is almost completely devoid of.
The watch order I use also helps to pad out some of the clunky parts of the prequels, and ties in some themes that I hadn't noticed before that TRoS absolutely mangles. I watched them like this: TPM, Solo, R1, ANH, TESB, AotC, RotS, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, TRoS.
The Phantom Menace into Solo into Rouge One establishes the sense that there are kids all across the galaxy getting pulled into these massive, ancient, and long-running conflicts that are initially presented as being black & white but just sink deeper and deeper into shades of grey as you see the systems driving those forces. It starts a little more lighthearted, but that fades in tone through each film. It also makes it feel like the Empire is large, present, and that you haven't seen Jedi aside from little hints of Maul & Vader as deadly mysterious entities behind the scenes.
From there, it pushes into A New Hope & The Empire Strikes Back, where we get to see little bits and pieces of all of those initial establishing films all come together: TPM seeds everything for Luke, Obi-Wan, & Anakin/Vader and their connection to the Ancient Jedi Order. Solo sets up Han, Chewie, & Lando and the fact that stakes exist outside of the Rebellion & Empire. Rogue One sets up Leia & the general struggles of the Rebellion, and the importance of the missions that they have with regards to the Empire.
Once the big paternal twist at the end of TESB hits, you pull through on the benefits of Machete Order by doing the flashback into the other Prequels to see how Obi-Wan & Anakin came to where they were, and what the deal with Palpatine is. This also gives you the rise of the Empire as well as the destruction of the Jedi. This also hits really heavily on the sociopolitical manipulation and those themes are EXCEPTIONALLY strong in the prequel films, particularly in these two moments:
The weight of all of those moving in to Return of the Jedi really sets up RotJ to be an infinitely better film than it is just running through 4, 5, 6. There's the weight of the larger corruption and manipulation deep in the core of the whole galaxy, as well as the complications in the Force vis-a-vis the Balance, and how it's a reflection of the state of the Galaxy itself. We get the Luke & Leia connection and get a sense of the larger picture of where things are at the fall of the Empire.
From there, we hit The Force Awakens & The Last Jedi, which are a back-to-back slam back into the thick of things, we see the way that – once again, legacies of those we saw in times past don't play out smoothly and get side-swiped by the influences and corruption of the Dark Side pulling attachments to the Skywalker lineage, while all of these young people are left to pick up that legacy and inherit it. We get the thematic repetition of the resurgence of the Empire as the First Order, as well as a look back through character like Rose to see how kids from nameless worlds aren't any better off than they were when we started. Alliances pull and unravel and everyone's left needing to really get into the core of this corruption at an existential level by focusing on the no-name kids saving what they care about, rather than destroying the things that they hate and looking with optimism towards the future.
Why I love viewing orders is that they provide new perspective and things to love and ways to look at things that you've seen before by how they frame the story elements. These were things that stood out and really REALLY hooked me on my film binge back through all of Star Wars.
...
and then you have The Rise of Skywalker.
Thematically it feels like an absolute train wreck. It is obsessing over pointless minutiae of its own trilogy that are best left explored in other mediums (like how if you want to know what's up with Darth Maul from the first two films, you can go watch Clone Wars & Rebels and then have an excellent in to watching The Mandalorian). The ancient evil is still Palpatine, but he's a cackling villain on a never-before-heard-of world building a super fleet of planet-destroying Star Destroyers (manned by god-knows-who) because it doesn't understand that the threat of planetary annihilation is all about subjugation of the masses through fear of unspeakably powerful and utterly massive weaponry – you don't put it on a single ship that allows someone to hijack it and turn that power against you, you wield them from a controlled position that's as unassailable as possible, while also pulling the strings that control those systems. Everything about Palpatine's political manipulations are just a wreck, especially given that he's apparently powerful enough to fire off Sith lightning through an entire fleet.
Palpatine foresaw countless other events and manipulated the entire galaxy against itself for his own interest for decades, and here he is a decrepit monologuing tyrant relying on his own apprentice(s) finding weird artifacts just to be able to reach him... but then basically a rag-tag version of everyone else in the galaxy somehow makes it there all united together – which has never happened in the entirety of the series of galactic conflict – and there's no explanation for their unification here, especially after The Last Jedi shows the issues with the exhaustion and demoralization of the general people who aren't willing to rally behind a call to fight against corruption and evil that never leaves for a victory that doesn't save the things that matter to them.
Every time it feels like stakes are being raised or there's a loss or sacrifice – it's pulled back and undercuts itself. The nostalgia is all very carefully aimed towards a Star Wars audience, and not towards the Star Wars story. Rey buriesLuke's Anakin's & Leia's lightsabers on Tatooine – because as a Star Wars fan, this is where everything began for you as a viewer! But in the context of the story, this is the old homestead Luke was desperate to escape where his aunt and uncle were gunned down by the Empire, on the planet Anakin hated where he was enslaved and his mother was tortured to death, where Rey takes up the mantle of being a Skywalker... but there's literally no connection to Anakin or even to Ben left there. The lost Skywalker son who was part of a dyad determined to finish what his grandfather, the chosen one, started in bringing peace and justice to the galaxy by any means necessary – nothing at all on the world where his father was imprisoned in Carbonite and almost died for because he chose to help the Rebellion rather than go back and address his own personal issues. Which might have been ok, except that we've just seen the rollercoaster of the Skywalkers' lineage, who are now rising from the ashes of their legacy as the ultimate representation of Palpatine's lineage unifying what he always sought after, and relegating the plight of all of the nameless sufferers in the fringes of the galaxy who Anakin embodied – as something she and the Skywalkers no longer represent solely because this film needed to assign her an important heritage, rather than explore what she thematically embodied through the development of the entire storyline as presented.
– And then it has all of the other "J.J. Abrams" film issues, too that that video dives into.
It is a film with so, SO many little vignettes that are absolutely fantastic that I really WANT to love. Luke & Leia training was really damned cool to see. Rey saving the injured "venemous snake" (exactly what she called Ben) and using a new Force power was awesome, thought it gives some really awkward issues to Anakin having his mother dying in his arms. Seeing Lando back with the Falcon is awesome especially after Solo, but we don't even get any subtle nods to L3. It's just... I'm so glad that it's the last film and not something that anything else has the responsibility to try and build off of.
I really REALLY want to like the film. I got to grow an appreciation for the prequels that kept getting stronger with time, but all of the thematic elements of Star Wars that I really love as through lines in the other films are an absolute catastrophe here, which makes the cool parts feel really rough, and hard to enjoy because so many of them just fail to grasp, or outright just misunderstand in ways that are trying to embrace the nostalgia of the viewer as a fan, and not in the context of the core elements of the story.
The Phantom Menace into Solo into Rouge One establishes the sense that there are kids all across the galaxy getting pulled into these massive, ancient, and long-running conflicts that are initially presented as being black & white but just sink deeper and deeper into shades of grey as you see the systems driving those forces. It starts a little more lighthearted, but that fades in tone through each film. It also makes it feel like the Empire is large, present, and that you haven't seen Jedi aside from little hints of Maul & Vader as deadly mysterious entities behind the scenes.
From there, it pushes into A New Hope & The Empire Strikes Back, where we get to see little bits and pieces of all of those initial establishing films all come together: TPM seeds everything for Luke, Obi-Wan, & Anakin/Vader and their connection to the Ancient Jedi Order. Solo sets up Han, Chewie, & Lando and the fact that stakes exist outside of the Rebellion & Empire. Rogue One sets up Leia & the general struggles of the Rebellion, and the importance of the missions that they have with regards to the Empire.
Once the big paternal twist at the end of TESB hits, you pull through on the benefits of Machete Order by doing the flashback into the other Prequels to see how Obi-Wan & Anakin came to where they were, and what the deal with Palpatine is. This also gives you the rise of the Empire as well as the destruction of the Jedi. This also hits really heavily on the sociopolitical manipulation and those themes are EXCEPTIONALLY strong in the prequel films, particularly in these two moments:
The weight of all of those moving in to Return of the Jedi really sets up RotJ to be an infinitely better film than it is just running through 4, 5, 6. There's the weight of the larger corruption and manipulation deep in the core of the whole galaxy, as well as the complications in the Force vis-a-vis the Balance, and how it's a reflection of the state of the Galaxy itself. We get the Luke & Leia connection and get a sense of the larger picture of where things are at the fall of the Empire.
From there, we hit The Force Awakens & The Last Jedi, which are a back-to-back slam back into the thick of things, we see the way that – once again, legacies of those we saw in times past don't play out smoothly and get side-swiped by the influences and corruption of the Dark Side pulling attachments to the Skywalker lineage, while all of these young people are left to pick up that legacy and inherit it. We get the thematic repetition of the resurgence of the Empire as the First Order, as well as a look back through character like Rose to see how kids from nameless worlds aren't any better off than they were when we started. Alliances pull and unravel and everyone's left needing to really get into the core of this corruption at an existential level by focusing on the no-name kids saving what they care about, rather than destroying the things that they hate and looking with optimism towards the future.
Why I love viewing orders is that they provide new perspective and things to love and ways to look at things that you've seen before by how they frame the story elements. These were things that stood out and really REALLY hooked me on my film binge back through all of Star Wars.
...
and then you have The Rise of Skywalker.
Thematically it feels like an absolute train wreck. It is obsessing over pointless minutiae of its own trilogy that are best left explored in other mediums (like how if you want to know what's up with Darth Maul from the first two films, you can go watch Clone Wars & Rebels and then have an excellent in to watching The Mandalorian). The ancient evil is still Palpatine, but he's a cackling villain on a never-before-heard-of world building a super fleet of planet-destroying Star Destroyers (manned by god-knows-who) because it doesn't understand that the threat of planetary annihilation is all about subjugation of the masses through fear of unspeakably powerful and utterly massive weaponry – you don't put it on a single ship that allows someone to hijack it and turn that power against you, you wield them from a controlled position that's as unassailable as possible, while also pulling the strings that control those systems. Everything about Palpatine's political manipulations are just a wreck, especially given that he's apparently powerful enough to fire off Sith lightning through an entire fleet.
Palpatine foresaw countless other events and manipulated the entire galaxy against itself for his own interest for decades, and here he is a decrepit monologuing tyrant relying on his own apprentice(s) finding weird artifacts just to be able to reach him... but then basically a rag-tag version of everyone else in the galaxy somehow makes it there all united together – which has never happened in the entirety of the series of galactic conflict – and there's no explanation for their unification here, especially after The Last Jedi shows the issues with the exhaustion and demoralization of the general people who aren't willing to rally behind a call to fight against corruption and evil that never leaves for a victory that doesn't save the things that matter to them.
Every time it feels like stakes are being raised or there's a loss or sacrifice – it's pulled back and undercuts itself. The nostalgia is all very carefully aimed towards a Star Wars audience, and not towards the Star Wars story. Rey buries
– And then it has all of the other "J.J. Abrams" film issues, too that that video dives into.
It is a film with so, SO many little vignettes that are absolutely fantastic that I really WANT to love. Luke & Leia training was really damned cool to see. Rey saving the injured "venemous snake" (exactly what she called Ben) and using a new Force power was awesome, thought it gives some really awkward issues to Anakin having his mother dying in his arms. Seeing Lando back with the Falcon is awesome especially after Solo, but we don't even get any subtle nods to L3. It's just... I'm so glad that it's the last film and not something that anything else has the responsibility to try and build off of.
I really REALLY want to like the film. I got to grow an appreciation for the prequels that kept getting stronger with time, but all of the thematic elements of Star Wars that I really love as through lines in the other films are an absolute catastrophe here, which makes the cool parts feel really rough, and hard to enjoy because so many of them just fail to grasp, or outright just misunderstand in ways that are trying to embrace the nostalgia of the viewer as a fan, and not in the context of the core elements of the story.
X
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
I kind of agree with X, but with the caveat that I think when you see the movie a second time and know what you're getting into, it is more enjoyable in the same way as a generic action blockbuster is enjoyable. Granted, that's a pretty disappointing level for a Star Wars film.
Honestly, I kinda wish they'd gotten Rian Johnson to finish the trilogy.
Honestly, I kinda wish they'd gotten Rian Johnson to finish the trilogy.
- AKA
- X
So some fun insight looking WAY back to when TFA was first being announced:
Then, my first two posts about Star Trek Into Darkness after seeing it are about utterly loathing the film but desperately wanting to like it, with the review link on tumblr also bemoaning that the film chickens out and pulls punches every time it looks like there are about to be stakes with consequences for the reckless actions of the main characters...
But then for Episode IX, J.J's only other writer was the guy who did Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice... which I felt moved way too quickly, never gave any of the characters enough time to feel fully developed, and really needed to be split into two films to do what it was attempting to accomplish...
Gee, the combination of those two things sound EXACTLY like my experience with and criticisms of The Rise of Skywalker – which is at least reassuring to know that my view on those sorts of things when it comes to any film's cinematography and experience is... pretty damned consistent, and this isn't something specific to Star Wars.
X
Then, my first two posts about Star Trek Into Darkness after seeing it are about utterly loathing the film but desperately wanting to like it, with the review link on tumblr also bemoaning that the film chickens out and pulls punches every time it looks like there are about to be stakes with consequences for the reckless actions of the main characters...
But then for Episode IX, J.J's only other writer was the guy who did Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice... which I felt moved way too quickly, never gave any of the characters enough time to feel fully developed, and really needed to be split into two films to do what it was attempting to accomplish...
Gee, the combination of those two things sound EXACTLY like my experience with and criticisms of The Rise of Skywalker – which is at least reassuring to know that my view on those sorts of things when it comes to any film's cinematography and experience is... pretty damned consistent, and this isn't something specific to Star Wars.
X
Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
There are absolutely Star Wars films with worse editing (George Lucas' slapstick always running too long) & acting (wooden prequel spliced takes), though TRoS gives it a run for its money with its, "How many times can we explicitly say the name of the new Macguffin" with things like Exegol, or the, "Just repeat something a bunch for surprise and comedy" with things like "They fly now?" "They fly now!?" "They fly now." and the fact that it doesn't take any time to breathe. However, none of the other films fundamentally fail at telling a cohesive, important, and meaningful Star Wars story as spectacularly as TRoS does. Especially after rewatching all 10 films prior to seeing Episode IX, there are really big parts of the otherwise rough prequel films that I very much appreciate and hold really impactful and meaningful messages about the rest of the series in a way that this final film is almost completely devoid of.
The watch order I use also helps to pad out some of the clunky parts of the prequels, and ties in some themes that I hadn't noticed before that TRoS absolutely mangles. I watched them like this: TPM, Solo, R1, ANH, TESB, AotC, RotS, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, TRoS.
The Phantom Menace into Solo into Rouge One establishes the sense that there are kids all across the galaxy getting pulled into these massive, ancient, and long-running conflicts that are initially presented as being black & white but just sink deeper and deeper into shades of grey as you see the systems driving those forces. It starts a little more lighthearted, but that fades in tone through each film. It also makes it feel like the Empire is large, present, and that you haven't seen Jedi aside from little hints of Maul & Vader as deadly mysterious entities behind the scenes.
From there, it pushes into A New Hope & The Empire Strikes Back, where we get to see little bits and pieces of all of those initial establishing films all come together: TPM seeds everything for Luke, Obi-Wan, & Anakin/Vader and their connection to the Ancient Jedi Order. Solo sets up Han, Chewie, & Lando and the fact that stakes exist outside of the Rebellion & Empire. Rogue One sets up Leia & the general struggles of the Rebellion, and the importance of the missions that they have with regards to the Empire.
Once the big paternal twist at the end of TESB hits, you pull through on the benefits of Machete Order by doing the flashback into the other Prequels to see how Obi-Wan & Anakin came to where they were, and what the deal with Palpatine is. This also gives you the rise of the Empire as well as the destruction of the Jedi. This also hits really heavily on the sociopolitical manipulation and those themes are EXCEPTIONALLY strong in the prequel films, particularly in these two moments:
The weight of all of those moving in to Return of the Jedi really sets up RotJ to be an infinitely better film than it is just running through 4, 5, 6. There's the weight of the larger corruption and manipulation deep in the core of the whole galaxy, as well as the complications in the Force vis-a-vis the Balance, and how it's a reflection of the state of the Galaxy itself. We get the Luke & Leia connection and get a sense of the larger picture of where things are at the fall of the Empire.
From there, we hit The Force Awakens & The Last Jedi, which are a back-to-back slam back into the thick of things, we see the way that – once again, legacies of those we saw in times past don't play out smoothly and get side-swiped by the influences and corruption of the Dark Side pulling attachments to the Skywalker lineage, while all of these young people are left to pick up that legacy and inherit it. We get the thematic repetition of the resurgence of the Empire as the First Order, as well as a look back through character like Rose to see how kids from nameless worlds aren't any better off than they were when we started. Alliances pull and unravel and everyone's left needing to really get into the core of this corruption at an existential level by focusing on the no-name kids saving what they care about, rather than destroying the things that they hate and looking with optimism towards the future.
Why I love viewing orders is that they provide new perspective and things to love and ways to look at things that you've seen before by how they frame the story elements. These were things that stood out and really REALLY hooked me on my film binge back through all of Star Wars.
...
and then you have The Rise of Skywalker.
Thematically it feels like an absolute train wreck. It is obsessing over pointless minutiae of its own trilogy that are best left explored in other mediums (like how if you want to know what's up with Darth Maul from the first two films, you can go watch Clone Wars & Rebels and then have an excellent in to watching The Mandalorian). The ancient evil is still Palpatine, but he's a cackling villain on a never-before-heard-of world building a super fleet of planet-destroying Star Destroyers (manned by god-knows-who) because it doesn't understand that the threat of planetary annihilation is all about subjugation of the masses through fear of unspeakably powerful and utterly massive weaponry – you don't put it on a single ship that allows someone to hijack it and turn that power against you, you wield them from a controlled position that's as unassailable as possible, while also pulling the strings that control those systems. Everything about Palpatine's political manipulations are just a wreck, especially given that he's apparently powerful enough to fire off Sith lightning through an entire fleet.
Palpatine foresaw countless other events and manipulated the entire galaxy against itself for his own interest for decades, and here he is a decrepit monologuing tyrant relying on his own apprentice(s) finding weird artifacts just to be able to reach him... but then basically a rag-tag version of everyone else in the galaxy somehow makes it there all united together – which has never happened in the entirety of the series of galactic conflict – and there's no explanation for their unification here, especially after The Last Jedi shows the issues with the exhaustion and demoralization of the general people who aren't willing to rally behind a call to fight against corruption and evil that never leaves for a victory that doesn't save the things that matter to them.
Every time it feels like stakes are being raised or there's a loss or sacrifice – it's pulled back and undercuts itself. The nostalgia is all very carefully aimed towards a Star Wars audience, and not towards the Star Wars story. Rey buriesLuke'sAnakin's & Leia's lightsabers on Tatooine – because as a Star Wars fan, this is where everything began for you as a viewer! But in the context of the story, this is the old homestead Luke was desperate to escape where his aunt and uncle were gunned down by the Empire, on the planet Anakin hated where he was enslaved and his mother was tortured to death, where Rey takes up the mantle of being a Skywalker... but there's literally no connection to Anakin or even to Ben left there. The lost Skywalker son who was part of a dyad determined to finish what his grandfather, the chosen one, started in bringing peace and justice to the galaxy by any means necessary – nothing at all on the world where his father was imprisoned in Carbonite and almost died for because he chose to help the Rebellion rather than go back and address his own personal issues. Which might have been ok, except that we've just seen the rollercoaster of the Skywalkers' lineage, who are now rising from the ashes of their legacy as the ultimate representation of Palpatine's lineage unifying what he always sought after, and relegating the plight of all of the nameless sufferers in the fringes of the galaxy who Anakin embodied – as something she and the Skywalkers no longer represent solely because this film needed to assign her an important heritage, rather than explore what she thematically embodied through the development of the entire storyline as presented.
– And then it has all of the other "J.J. Abrams" film issues, too that that video dives into.
It is a film with so, SO many little vignettes that are absolutely fantastic that I really WANT to love. Luke & Leia training was really damned cool to see. Rey saving the injured "venemous snake" (exactly what she called Ben) and using a new Force power was awesome, thought it gives some really awkward issues to Anakin having his mother dying in his arms. Seeing Lando back with the Falcon is awesome especially after Solo, but we don't even get any subtle nods to L3. It's just... I'm so glad that it's the last film and not something that anything else has the responsibility to try and build off of.
I really REALLY want to like the film. I got to grow an appreciation for the prequels that kept getting stronger with time, but all of the thematic elements of Star Wars that I really love as through lines in the other films are an absolute catastrophe here, which makes the cool parts feel really rough, and hard to enjoy because so many of them just fail to grasp, or outright just misunderstand in ways that are trying to embrace the nostalgia of the viewer as a fan, and not in the context of the core elements of the story.
X
Wow, that’s a hell of an insight there, X. I’ll have to read this later in better detail but it sounds like you’ve brought up a valid case. Much appreciate the time for writing up all this.
It raises a question though, maybe a trivial one, but does anyone know what Colin Trevorrow had in plan for Episode 9 before he left? All I know is that he wanted to do SOMETHING with Snoke (and maybe Luke), that was until Rian Johnson kind of ruined all that for him. I seriously doubt Fisher’s untimely passing had anything to do with his departure.
Don’t know if his take on ending the trilogy would have been any better or is it hard to tell without knowing?
- AKA
- X
I've no idea that he wanted to do with Episode IX or if it'd've been any better. I think that Episode IX inherently had a few situations that may have seemed a bit tough to tackle, but that are important Star Wars themes that TRoS dodged addressing at all.
I'm gonna just roll out my thoughts on what the set up could have done by looking at the questions the series built up, where they were left at the end of TLJ, and how they could have approached them by focusing on the underlying thematic narrative of the series.
Anyhow, that's my tl;dr two cents about what I wanted from the film and didn't even get any hint of.
X
I'm gonna just roll out my thoughts on what the set up could have done by looking at the questions the series built up, where they were left at the end of TLJ, and how they could have approached them by focusing on the underlying thematic narrative of the series.
• How do you galvanize people who are exhausted by oppression and war, and feel that none of the victories actually change their lives? How do the lessons that Finn & Rose learned about saving what you love rather than focusing on destroying what you hate allow them to start making a difference given their respective backgrounds? How does Poe's greater understanding of the value of lives and the cost of war allow him to be a better leader that enables the Resistance to grow into a Force that can unify for the better of everyone?
• What does Ben being the Supreme Leader mean for the direction of the First Order, since ostensibly he's pursuing Vader's vision of gaining power at any cost with the goal of bringing peace and justice to EVERYWHERE in the galaxy? How does that connect with his continual anger and discomfort at living in the shadows of others now that he IS at the top? How does he view his connection to Rey since they each want to help the other one, but fundamentally disagree with the method that the other wants to use to achieve those ends? What does someone with that much conflict and repressed remorse over pursuing the dark path do when he finally sits in a position of power?
• How will Leia fill the mantle of a mentor for Rey since she's lost both Han and Luke? How do the both of them talk about Ben and what their inevitable confrontation with him will mean? How do you face that when you save the good things, it doesn't instantly undo the bad things? When is it ok to use that kind of power and when isn't it?
Personally, I think that Rey should have used Leia's guidance to have been a student of the Living Force, rather than using her directly as a mentor. Leia's commitment to the Rebellion & Resistance matching her mother's commitment to the Senate should ultimately have been the reasons why she chose not to pursue her Jedi training. She understood that you shouldn't be overlapping those worlds, and could have given all sorts of knowledge from her father about the Rise of the Empire and the Fall of the Jedi and how they were interconnected that Rey could connect with the lessons of the First Jedi to see where things went astray. She understood that the dogma of the Jedi lead to their hubris and downfall, and her & Ben are already a juxtaposition of the Jedi & Sith values swapped around: she follows the light and treasures attachment and Ben follows the dark and eschews attachment. What's interesting with that is that it would have pointed a light back to the most pivotal character in the entire series when it comes to following the Will of the Force: Qui-Gon Jinn.
No one was more critical of the Jedi's involvement in the senate, or the dogma of the council than he was, and he's been used to address the Prophesy and becoming one with The Force. That's the path to exploring that attachment and love are necessary, but understanding that it's the desperation to possess the things that we love that turns those feelings dark. Additionally, destroying what you love doesn't free you from it, it breaks you and binds you to it even more tightly because it continually defines you. Rules can be broken for the greater good, but rules can also be upheld for the greater good. This is why the Jedi need to exist outside of the realms of the governing bodies of the galaxy. The sort of Princess Mononoke, "To see with eyes unclouded by hate" mission.
Rey can't MAKE Ben be a better person. She has to be an example of how he can be better by following her own path, and know that his own insecurities will make him chase the answers she's finding. Ben likewise can't force himself to follow a dark path forever, and needs to understand that Vader's flaws were in his fear of loss blinded him to the fact that his selfish actions were causing the same pain for others that he experienced. He has to atone on his own terms, but also try to understand what he should do when he's in THE position of ultimate power, but is pursuing a path where he no longer views the galaxy as his (or anyone's) to posses – because that's just the type of Slavery that Anakin experienced on a galactic scale (something that would have been a perfect revelation for using Fortress Vader). He should determine that no one should ever wield that power and ensure that doesn't happen again. He can't kill his past – and that includes his path he's leaving with the First Order. That is his responsibility to correct every single day by standing against the evils that he helped to create rather than ignore them.
Ben should be seeking a Jedi path of being a Guardian of Justice – balancing the bad that he's done with good, and ensuring that the evils are stopped and the good are protected. Rey should be seeking the path of being the Guardian of Peace – Ensuring that the actions of the Jedi don't pursue their own influence, nor are they subject to the manipulations of others, but rather ensure that when the oppressed cry out that no one's voice goes unheard no matter where they exist in the Galaxy. You use the two of them in the sort of Japanese rivalry duo where they each keep the other in check because of their awareness of one another. That's the dyad that ultimately represents balance and Skywalker's legacy: The all-powerful supreme leader of the galaxy giving up his power to ensure that no one is ever owned, controlled, ruled, or oppressed; and the no-name desert girl chosen by the living Force to show that the galaxy belongs to everyone, and we're all connected through the Force. The push-and-pull will always impact everyone because The Force connects everything, and we need to ensure that they can feel that connection and keep it in balance. Rey and Ben need to be in balance with each other for EITHER of them to obtain what they both seek. Only after that will they both achieve the ends that they need to accept each other genuinely.
This shows that the dogmatic paths of light and dark look different, but each have pitfalls and they're more alike than they are not. No one will trust Ben, and Rey has to trust his intentions just as he has to trust that she genuinely believes in him and isn't using him for her own ends. Ben & Rey have to be a united front to use their power in the Force and in the Galaxy to definitively prove to its citizens that the Jedi exist to help them save the things that they love, and not to destroy the things that they hate, as this was ultimately the downfall of the Jedi Order becoming tools of the Galactic Senate and being used as Generals in War. It is the willful separation from governance and being direct representatives of the people themselves that is what will galvanize people to trust, believe, and rally behind them, and ultimately dismantle the systems that brought about the Empire & First Order.
That's how you call back to Obi-Wan's, "They were the guardians of peace and justice" line from A New Hope for that nostalgia poke at when you first heard about the Jedi through Luke's eager farmboy eyes, and also follow the path that Qui-Gon wanted to guide Anakin on if he had survived. You also get the connection to the Japanese storytelling with the "eternally bound rivals" that looks at what redemption looks like for someone who's done terrible things without taking the easy route of having them die to avoid accountability (Ashitaka & San in Princess Mononoke, and Naruto & Sasuke in Naruto are both good examples of that dynamic of duality and balance).
That is the fundamental message and throughline in Star Wars, and those are literally the only things that I think should ever have been looked at vis-a-vis Episode IX, because they contain all of the opportunities for the things that everyone wants to see as movie goers, but they also hold a poignant and meaningful message for the current sociopolitical climate that the films draw from.
• What does Ben being the Supreme Leader mean for the direction of the First Order, since ostensibly he's pursuing Vader's vision of gaining power at any cost with the goal of bringing peace and justice to EVERYWHERE in the galaxy? How does that connect with his continual anger and discomfort at living in the shadows of others now that he IS at the top? How does he view his connection to Rey since they each want to help the other one, but fundamentally disagree with the method that the other wants to use to achieve those ends? What does someone with that much conflict and repressed remorse over pursuing the dark path do when he finally sits in a position of power?
• How will Leia fill the mantle of a mentor for Rey since she's lost both Han and Luke? How do the both of them talk about Ben and what their inevitable confrontation with him will mean? How do you face that when you save the good things, it doesn't instantly undo the bad things? When is it ok to use that kind of power and when isn't it?
Personally, I think that Rey should have used Leia's guidance to have been a student of the Living Force, rather than using her directly as a mentor. Leia's commitment to the Rebellion & Resistance matching her mother's commitment to the Senate should ultimately have been the reasons why she chose not to pursue her Jedi training. She understood that you shouldn't be overlapping those worlds, and could have given all sorts of knowledge from her father about the Rise of the Empire and the Fall of the Jedi and how they were interconnected that Rey could connect with the lessons of the First Jedi to see where things went astray. She understood that the dogma of the Jedi lead to their hubris and downfall, and her & Ben are already a juxtaposition of the Jedi & Sith values swapped around: she follows the light and treasures attachment and Ben follows the dark and eschews attachment. What's interesting with that is that it would have pointed a light back to the most pivotal character in the entire series when it comes to following the Will of the Force: Qui-Gon Jinn.
No one was more critical of the Jedi's involvement in the senate, or the dogma of the council than he was, and he's been used to address the Prophesy and becoming one with The Force. That's the path to exploring that attachment and love are necessary, but understanding that it's the desperation to possess the things that we love that turns those feelings dark. Additionally, destroying what you love doesn't free you from it, it breaks you and binds you to it even more tightly because it continually defines you. Rules can be broken for the greater good, but rules can also be upheld for the greater good. This is why the Jedi need to exist outside of the realms of the governing bodies of the galaxy. The sort of Princess Mononoke, "To see with eyes unclouded by hate" mission.
Rey can't MAKE Ben be a better person. She has to be an example of how he can be better by following her own path, and know that his own insecurities will make him chase the answers she's finding. Ben likewise can't force himself to follow a dark path forever, and needs to understand that Vader's flaws were in his fear of loss blinded him to the fact that his selfish actions were causing the same pain for others that he experienced. He has to atone on his own terms, but also try to understand what he should do when he's in THE position of ultimate power, but is pursuing a path where he no longer views the galaxy as his (or anyone's) to posses – because that's just the type of Slavery that Anakin experienced on a galactic scale (something that would have been a perfect revelation for using Fortress Vader). He should determine that no one should ever wield that power and ensure that doesn't happen again. He can't kill his past – and that includes his path he's leaving with the First Order. That is his responsibility to correct every single day by standing against the evils that he helped to create rather than ignore them.
Ben should be seeking a Jedi path of being a Guardian of Justice – balancing the bad that he's done with good, and ensuring that the evils are stopped and the good are protected. Rey should be seeking the path of being the Guardian of Peace – Ensuring that the actions of the Jedi don't pursue their own influence, nor are they subject to the manipulations of others, but rather ensure that when the oppressed cry out that no one's voice goes unheard no matter where they exist in the Galaxy. You use the two of them in the sort of Japanese rivalry duo where they each keep the other in check because of their awareness of one another. That's the dyad that ultimately represents balance and Skywalker's legacy: The all-powerful supreme leader of the galaxy giving up his power to ensure that no one is ever owned, controlled, ruled, or oppressed; and the no-name desert girl chosen by the living Force to show that the galaxy belongs to everyone, and we're all connected through the Force. The push-and-pull will always impact everyone because The Force connects everything, and we need to ensure that they can feel that connection and keep it in balance. Rey and Ben need to be in balance with each other for EITHER of them to obtain what they both seek. Only after that will they both achieve the ends that they need to accept each other genuinely.
This shows that the dogmatic paths of light and dark look different, but each have pitfalls and they're more alike than they are not. No one will trust Ben, and Rey has to trust his intentions just as he has to trust that she genuinely believes in him and isn't using him for her own ends. Ben & Rey have to be a united front to use their power in the Force and in the Galaxy to definitively prove to its citizens that the Jedi exist to help them save the things that they love, and not to destroy the things that they hate, as this was ultimately the downfall of the Jedi Order becoming tools of the Galactic Senate and being used as Generals in War. It is the willful separation from governance and being direct representatives of the people themselves that is what will galvanize people to trust, believe, and rally behind them, and ultimately dismantle the systems that brought about the Empire & First Order.
That's how you call back to Obi-Wan's, "They were the guardians of peace and justice" line from A New Hope for that nostalgia poke at when you first heard about the Jedi through Luke's eager farmboy eyes, and also follow the path that Qui-Gon wanted to guide Anakin on if he had survived. You also get the connection to the Japanese storytelling with the "eternally bound rivals" that looks at what redemption looks like for someone who's done terrible things without taking the easy route of having them die to avoid accountability (Ashitaka & San in Princess Mononoke, and Naruto & Sasuke in Naruto are both good examples of that dynamic of duality and balance).
That is the fundamental message and throughline in Star Wars, and those are literally the only things that I think should ever have been looked at vis-a-vis Episode IX, because they contain all of the opportunities for the things that everyone wants to see as movie goers, but they also hold a poignant and meaningful message for the current sociopolitical climate that the films draw from.
Anyhow, that's my tl;dr two cents about what I wanted from the film and didn't even get any hint of.
X
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I feel like you can probably get the most value out of these films by ignoring the themes entirely, they contradict each other at every turn.
Oscar Isaac does a great job of depicting someone on the verge of breaking point. "You were a spice runner?" "Who cares about this nonsense, we're on a schedule guys!" "People on Kijimi want to kill me, but no time, so screw it!"
Edit: Oh, and Hux had potential for a really interesting arc, he's demonstrably the most dangerous man in the FO, but never gets any respect for it.
Oscar Isaac does a great job of depicting someone on the verge of breaking point. "You were a spice runner?" "Who cares about this nonsense, we're on a schedule guys!" "People on Kijimi want to kill me, but no time, so screw it!"
Edit: Oh, and Hux had potential for a really interesting arc, he's demonstrably the most dangerous man in the FO, but never gets any respect for it.
- AKA
- X
...but I've gotten a huge amount of value out of literally every OTHER Star Wars film except this one by not ignoring the themes. They're one of my favourite things about the Star Wars films in general. Also, I just walked through an entire post discussing all of the interconnected themes consistently flowing through all 10 films leading up to TRoS, so that's an exceptionally oddly contrarian claim to make without any examples.
X
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
...Wow, in hindsight that was REALLY poorly placed after your last post. Sorry, genuinely. I was thinking things over since your post 2,202, and trying to decide whether I should or could say anything or not without dragging us off track yet again, and really messed that up.
There was a really strong thematic push towards 'democratisation' of the force while investing it all in Rey and Kylo, the two sided superhero coin. And then she turns out to be literal royalty. But even before that the narrative put huge stress on being 'nobody' rather than the 'sold you for drinking money' part. Which is weird, and meta. So much for that big 'bloodlines aren't important' push.
Finn, conscripted child slave, doesn't have hesitation shooting down his conscripted child slave brethren, and no effort is made to free them. If your theme is supposed to be about saving what you love over destroying, that's a major misstep.
It's really weird to have Rey affected so much be being a nobody when your other main lead, Finn, only has a name because it was taken from a randomly assigned serial number. No focus is given to this.
Finn has a lesson in TLJ where he learns not to exploit animals, and then in this one casually rides different animals into combat.
The New Republic is supposedly naively disarmed, but also apparently warmongers supporting a massive arms trade. Both those things can't be true at once.
And so on.
Edit: A thematic payoff is more inclined to require a particular outcome. Thematically, if the threads are not paid off, there's now a question of whether this story fits the theme instead of just being what these characters would credibly do.
There was a really strong thematic push towards 'democratisation' of the force while investing it all in Rey and Kylo, the two sided superhero coin. And then she turns out to be literal royalty. But even before that the narrative put huge stress on being 'nobody' rather than the 'sold you for drinking money' part. Which is weird, and meta. So much for that big 'bloodlines aren't important' push.
Finn, conscripted child slave, doesn't have hesitation shooting down his conscripted child slave brethren, and no effort is made to free them. If your theme is supposed to be about saving what you love over destroying, that's a major misstep.
It's really weird to have Rey affected so much be being a nobody when your other main lead, Finn, only has a name because it was taken from a randomly assigned serial number. No focus is given to this.
Finn has a lesson in TLJ where he learns not to exploit animals, and then in this one casually rides different animals into combat.
The New Republic is supposedly naively disarmed, but also apparently warmongers supporting a massive arms trade. Both those things can't be true at once.
And so on.
Edit: A thematic payoff is more inclined to require a particular outcome. Thematically, if the threads are not paid off, there's now a question of whether this story fits the theme instead of just being what these characters would credibly do.
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Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
- AKA
- Lulcy
Rey's lineage doesn't contradict the 'democratisation' theme because she's not the only character that carries that theme nor is the biggest representative of that theme in TLJ.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
That's not revolutionary at all, though. Force sensitives always spawn randomly. You never needed a special bloodline or to be a lead character to have force sensitivity.
- AKA
- TresDias
On a sad related note, the novelization has apparently been delayed two weeks from a March 3 release to March 17.
On a happy related note, it's been confirmed that a couple of Naboo N-1 starfighters appeared in the final aerial battle!
This makes me way happier than it has any right to.
Is that a blurry picture or am I tearing up?
Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
Not sure if this has been pointed out before or not, but rewatching TLJ, has anyone noticed Rian Johnson's prevaiiing love for the color red? 
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Didn't notice. There's the throne room, Crait, and the lighting on the Dreadnought, did it come up anywhere else?
New headcanon: Dark Side caves always show everyone dark reflections of themselves, it's like a welcome mat or a loading screen 'You are looking fine today, boss. But you'd look even better on the Dark Side!'
New headcanon: Dark Side caves always show everyone dark reflections of themselves, it's like a welcome mat or a loading screen 'You are looking fine today, boss. But you'd look even better on the Dark Side!'
Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
Snoke's throne room, the Praetorian Guards, the movie poster, the title's color font...
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- AKA
- X
That's a callback to the original look for RotJ before it was changed to be "Return" which is also what they did for Episode III.
The Imperial Royal Guards were also red, so that's just following a pre-established in-universe theme.
I think that the red in TLJ is mostly being used to help create a clearer juxtaposition to the black & white look of Canto Bight being representative of opulence and wealth. The Red serves as a way to distinguish that from the normally more monochromatic Empire / First Order look, and is also largely connected to Ben / Kylo Ren's journey to the top in the film. Those themes all come together, leaving the battlefield on Crait looking burned, bloodied, and scarred when he's left behind there.
Rian Johnson's not quite as deep into the thematic use of color in film as someone like Guillermo Del Toro in Pacific Rim or Crimson Peak, (some other good examples from lots of different films here) but it's definitely there a good bit in TLJ, and in a couple of his other films as well.
X
The Imperial Royal Guards were also red, so that's just following a pre-established in-universe theme.
I think that the red in TLJ is mostly being used to help create a clearer juxtaposition to the black & white look of Canto Bight being representative of opulence and wealth. The Red serves as a way to distinguish that from the normally more monochromatic Empire / First Order look, and is also largely connected to Ben / Kylo Ren's journey to the top in the film. Those themes all come together, leaving the battlefield on Crait looking burned, bloodied, and scarred when he's left behind there.
Rian Johnson's not quite as deep into the thematic use of color in film as someone like Guillermo Del Toro in Pacific Rim or Crimson Peak, (some other good examples from lots of different films here) but it's definitely there a good bit in TLJ, and in a couple of his other films as well.
X
- AKA
- TresDias
So, there's been a major discovery:
The document's authenticity has apparently been verified, and even more details have since emerged.
It's obviously impossible to objectively say whether this would have made for a better movie, but I do believe it's fair to say that it would have made for a more cohesive trilogy with TFA and TLJ (the main thing missing from TRoS), as well as featured more overt inclusion of plot and thematic elements from the wider franchise.
Speaking more subjectively, there is much here I would have loved to see. There's still some things in TRoS that I'm very fond of, but there may be more ideas here I prefer. At the very least, I would argue that a potentially great movie was somewhere in these ingredients -- or possibly a mix of these and those of TRoS.
The document's authenticity has apparently been verified, and even more details have since emerged.
It's obviously impossible to objectively say whether this would have made for a better movie, but I do believe it's fair to say that it would have made for a more cohesive trilogy with TFA and TLJ (the main thing missing from TRoS), as well as featured more overt inclusion of plot and thematic elements from the wider franchise.
Speaking more subjectively, there is much here I would have loved to see. There's still some things in TRoS that I'm very fond of, but there may be more ideas here I prefer. At the very least, I would argue that a potentially great movie was somewhere in these ingredients -- or possibly a mix of these and those of TRoS.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
There's a lot to like in there, starting with the title crawl which is actually kinda awesome. But there is one major crucial problem. I absolutely hate the way Kylo Ren's arc seems to be handled here. Maybe there's some missing details or something from the end, but it seems like in this version he just stays a villain, with no redemption in sight. Live or die, Ben's redemption is vital in any version of episode ix imo. It's one of the most important concepts in all of Star Wars.
Whatever issues I have with TROS, and there are many, it at least nailed that aspect of things./spoiler]
Whatever issues I have with TROS, and there are many, it at least nailed that aspect of things./spoiler]
- AKA
- X
Some more thoughts:
On a related note:
X
There are definitely still some issues (Ancient Sith guy feeling like it breaks the Rule of Two), and I am curious to know if there are some more specifics about the Mortis-based confrontation between Rey & Ben. Specifically because it's set on Mortis, that it makes me very curious about the planned interplay of events there, because that location has a significant history around the concept of the balance and it seems like that's definitely the "Duel of the Fates" setting from the title. How exactly things transpire there matter a lot to how I feel about it.
Overall, the way that explores following up the themes on saving people, how it shows the First Order's rule of the galaxy, and the exploration of Coruscant and its depths alone put it on a much stronger standing for me, just in how it pulls in the thematic and story elements of what came before (even before adding Mortis in to the mix).
Overall, the way that explores following up the themes on saving people, how it shows the First Order's rule of the galaxy, and the exploration of Coruscant and its depths alone put it on a much stronger standing for me, just in how it pulls in the thematic and story elements of what came before (even before adding Mortis in to the mix).
On a related note:
X
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
That uh, that explains a lot
- AKA
- Minato
Well, I'm glad we got the IX we did then instead of Colin's. Having Bossk survive the infernal explosion on Jabba's yacht above the Sarlacc Pit but keeping Boba dead and as well as 4 people and a droid bringing a Eclipse-class (the absolutely biggest SSD, minimum crew of 88k, usual crew count of 700k) online, fly it out of spacedock, travel to a new system and land it no less would've invoked some serious nerdrage in me. Mortis and it's concepts feels something that should stay in the animated series and only be eluded to in the live action installments. I'd like to see Coruscant, to see what the passage of time have done to it. More Ghost-Luke would be good. It's difficult to imagine Palpatine genuinely selflessly caring how Vader would instruct Luke as a Sith in the event of his death. Seems to go against everything the Disney era has done with the character.