The Blindfolded
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- The Birdwatcher
So, here it is- hopefully some shed light on FFVII itself and its choices- a grand hypothesis, and hopefully not a page of "fan theorizing". These are all possible connections between FFVII and Live A Live that I intend to post here, probably in multiple parts, depending how often on the rules of the forum here.
I will gather information from YouTube videos and from this link: http://amerikajin.me/final-fantasy-7-english-japanese-script/, which allegedly uses the 1998 English PC version and the International Japanese version. I have backed up the veracity of the text found in the International Japanese version in several places, so it seems legitimate. It also has deleted scenes/text.
I believe that Live A Live's influence on FFVII is the missing key on crucial parts of FFVII- notably the theatrical/or darker moments. I also believe, however, it has little to no bearing on its moral aspects, aside from a psychological leaning on Sephiroth, who may have more to him than just Nojima's subtlety or ideas of the Miyamoto and Sasaki duel. /https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojirō
Anyway, I wanted to make a list and potential discussion about these areas because these coincidences keep lining up the more I look at these games (Live A Live, FFVII, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, FFIV, etc.) from around the same era- either that or I am thinking for too much on these similarities. Either way, I think, it is worth pointing these out.
First of all, I want to highlight my perspective of where and how I am conducting my research from. I originally thought that FFVII was a self-contained unit, despite knowing that summons/Cid/enemies stemmed from earlier titles in the series. I also noticed similarities between the Esper system in FFVI and FFVII. Over time and with experiences and observation, I realized that- well- Square is lazy, or I should say tends to take pre-existing work and re-fashion it either into a similar/different form or utilize the exact same thing or idea.
I've also noticed that many fans (and I'm not judging but) tend to ignore the role that production and that involvement of said distinct producers/directors/writers, etc. have on video games, in a similar fashion to making a film or a collaborative book project. Sometimes, fans will pick up if there are similar trends between properties (or if they dislike a property enough to criticize it properly), i.e. - Nomura likes to put twists in his KH series, so his involvement with the Remake has contributed to it having twists and not making immediate coherent sense, etc.
To pinpoint this down is another matter, and I sincerely hope that I'm not speculating to the point of making thread that's reminiscent of ThumbsUpMaster's Stop N' Swop parody video on YouTube, but I think that there is worthwhile analysis here. Stuff that's been buried for a while that should be unearthed.
Alright, so why do I think that there's a connection between the two besides Square/Squaresoft owning the two properties?
1. Takashi Tokita.
Tokita's contributions to storylines/plot in FFIV have been SUPER duper repeated in later iterations of the FF series. Or both, Sakaguchi and Tokita- it is admittedly difficult to sift the two out from one another, especially in a collaboration. Considering that Tokita himself said that the characters in FFIV were like his children, I think he was heavily involved with their creation.
.
I firmly believe that besides Sakaguchi, this guy is the heart of Square. Morally, Meaningfully, and Spiritually. (Not in respect to Moogles and Chocobos, though). Much of every thing else from Square's early stages is hot air (Yes, including FFVI- there's no enough substance there in the main plot at times.). There are touches are and there- Hiromichi Tanaka's work on Secret of Mana, Kenji Terada, who served as the scenario writer with Sakaguchi for the first 3 FFs.
But I don't know what it is about this guy's writing (he seems to write quirky, yet memorable characters), but (besides great timing which included working as a writer on FFIV with Sakaguchi, in which the FF team tried taking the best parts of the first three Final Fantasies) I think Tokita gets it the most. If he solo wrote on his own, he might be one of the most powerful writers in Square. Even better than Nojima and Nomura, though they are great at writing emotionally, psychologically, and complex driven narratives and characters, they fail to understand one key aspect- the differences between good and evil, and I think that they also fail to understand consequence enough or the weight of consequences. Some of that is left over from FFVI (Empire=bad; Shinra=bad; rebels=good, Avalanche= good (most of the time)) in FFVII's writing. Despite characters (like Barret, for instance) acknowledging their guilt for their actions or saying that they shouldn't have done certain things, it seems like there's not enough attention called to good and evil. Instead, there is more of a nihilism to FFVII, instead of good and evil being acknowledged in FFIV in a discrete way (Cecil's appearance as a noble Paladin after being a cowardly dark knight) without being simplified, as I believe and feel with FFVI, as well as several characters (Cecil, Kain, Golbez) showing both good and evil traits or actions (Cecil-cowardice, Kain- jealously, selfishness, Golbez- anger, hate to a brother).
Or, it's not based on right or wrong, as much as it is a focus on the personal or psychological.
VINCENT: Kill Sephiroth… ……Killing the son of my beloved woman… “Am I on the verge of committing……another sin?
Vincent, how dense are you? This is your reason for not wanting to kill this guy? Because he was the son of your love? This guy's a mass murderer who psychologically manipulated Cloud into giving him the thing to destroy life from the entire planet.
Also, I find it interesting in FFVII about how the team (Vincent?, Cloud) supposedly sympathizes with Hojo, and I still don't really know why. It's been said in one of the FFVII Ultimanias (2006 one) that Hojo's driven by his inferiority complex (and tries being rivals with Professor Gast, I guess?). So, maybe the team thinks that Hojo couldn't just do any better and was put into this system with Shinra, thinking that he had to be the best and upholding science as his lifelong ambition and job.
VINCENT: Hojo…what a queer fellow.”( houjou ...... fukou na otoko )「宝条……不幸な男」
“Such utter lack of scientific talent…( kagakuteki sensu nonasa ......「科学的センスのなさ……compared with the genius of Dr. Gast…”tsukimatou tensai gasuto hakase tono hikaku ......) つきまとう天才ガスト博士との比較……」
“Lucrecia chose him in order to protect him.”( rukurettsua ha houjou wo「ルクレッツアは宝条をmamoro utoshiteaitsuwo eran da ......) 守ろうとしてあいつを選んだ……」
“Now I understand…( imanarawakaru ......「いまならわかる……
I understand…but…”wakaruga ...... shikashi ......) わかるが……しかし……」
It also seems that Hojo was targeted by Shinra if he were to fail at his job? Or, maybe Lucretia was trying to protect Hojo from being humiliated?
Hmm. Purple-haired Alicia from Live A Live seems similar in her response in respect to Straybow, coincidently.
Interesting.
And why is Lucrecia named Lucrecia? Well...
The name of the kingdom in Live A Live is: ルクレチア= Lucretia. And I did some research- it is, evidently ルクレチア, not ルクレツィア, unless it's possible to combine certain Japanese characters or substitute them. But I definitely looked, and it is: ルクレチア. So, unless the 3DS version (which I cannot currently find) had it slightly different, it is ルクレチア.
In FFVII, the name of Sephiroth's mother is: ルクレッツィア, something more akin to Lucrecia or Lucrezia than Lucretia. However, apparently this was later or retroactively changed to ルクレツィア in Dirge of Cerberus (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ダージュ_オブ_ケルベロス_ファイナルファンタジーVII). Google Translate tells me that it's Lucrezia, despite the missing character of ッ. Nevertheless, the name is suspiciously similar to the kingdom's name. And to be fair, the OG FVII, has it as Lucrecia.
Anyways, my suspicions remain high. This is likely where Square has taken the name from. Ironically, I have heard some fans say that Lucrecia in FFVII's name is derived from Lucretia (noblewoman) of Roman history. But the name actually lines up more closely with Live A Live's kingdom, which is exact, whereas in FFVII, it's close but not exact. Also, it's possible that Lucrecia's character was a reference to the historical figure, but it sort of conflicts with the idea of Lucrecia choosing Hojo to protect him. However, both Alicia (of Lucretia) and Lucrecia themselves attempt to commit suicide like the figure- only Alicia is successful. What's notable about the figure is she kills herself with a dagger, as does Alicia. But we have no idea how Lucrecia attempted to kill herself in FFVII, only that she has tried.
And then we have:
In respect to FFVII, there's the Honey Bee Inn play scene where they say:
"It's the curse of the resurrected Satan…"yomigaerishi maou no noroi ka ... よみがえりし魔王の呪いか…
Technically, the demon king isn't revived here, but its legacy is, as far as I know. Apparently, anyone can draw on the power of the demon king's statue to become a demon king in Live A Live. So, I think the demon king (魔王- mao) in Live A Live bears some sort of connection to Sephiroth.
I think that legacy plays a huge role in FFVII, something that might be only somewhat explained/examined loosely in FFVI (Kefka succeeding the statues, Celes and Kefka to inherit the Empire under Gestault, etc.), but this "inheriting" of power, the next villain arising from the ashes of the past is an interesting concept. And it does seem to be present in Live A Live. And I think, coincidentally or not, fits FFVII better in respect to Live A Live's knight chapter "King of Demons" plot and sub-sequent pick-up plot/s at the end of the game. Also, one of the interesting things in FFIV was the idea that Zeromus would still persist as long evil remained in the hearts of mankind. This seems to be an extension of this idea- a "whatif" scenario in Live A Live and possibly in FFVII, assuming that Jenova was nearly dead/brain dead or overshadowed by Sephiroth. So, the demon king here in Live A Live appears to be Zeromus, but he apparently stuck to/was driven to his lair, and then later killed by a party of people. And to be frank, this is fairly the same as what happened to Jenova and the remaining Ancients. Jenova makes monsters from its cells/replicates parts of itself, and a small band of people put it to death, seemingly. The demon king also commands a number of monsters, as well as Zemus, as there are those loyal to Zemus in FFIV.
I will gather information from YouTube videos and from this link: http://amerikajin.me/final-fantasy-7-english-japanese-script/, which allegedly uses the 1998 English PC version and the International Japanese version. I have backed up the veracity of the text found in the International Japanese version in several places, so it seems legitimate. It also has deleted scenes/text.
I believe that Live A Live's influence on FFVII is the missing key on crucial parts of FFVII- notably the theatrical/or darker moments. I also believe, however, it has little to no bearing on its moral aspects, aside from a psychological leaning on Sephiroth, who may have more to him than just Nojima's subtlety or ideas of the Miyamoto and Sasaki duel. /https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojirō
Anyway, I wanted to make a list and potential discussion about these areas because these coincidences keep lining up the more I look at these games (Live A Live, FFVII, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, FFIV, etc.) from around the same era- either that or I am thinking for too much on these similarities. Either way, I think, it is worth pointing these out.
First of all, I want to highlight my perspective of where and how I am conducting my research from. I originally thought that FFVII was a self-contained unit, despite knowing that summons/Cid/enemies stemmed from earlier titles in the series. I also noticed similarities between the Esper system in FFVI and FFVII. Over time and with experiences and observation, I realized that- well- Square is lazy, or I should say tends to take pre-existing work and re-fashion it either into a similar/different form or utilize the exact same thing or idea.
I've also noticed that many fans (and I'm not judging but) tend to ignore the role that production and that involvement of said distinct producers/directors/writers, etc. have on video games, in a similar fashion to making a film or a collaborative book project. Sometimes, fans will pick up if there are similar trends between properties (or if they dislike a property enough to criticize it properly), i.e. - Nomura likes to put twists in his KH series, so his involvement with the Remake has contributed to it having twists and not making immediate coherent sense, etc.
To pinpoint this down is another matter, and I sincerely hope that I'm not speculating to the point of making thread that's reminiscent of ThumbsUpMaster's Stop N' Swop parody video on YouTube, but I think that there is worthwhile analysis here. Stuff that's been buried for a while that should be unearthed.
Alright, so why do I think that there's a connection between the two besides Square/Squaresoft owning the two properties?
1. Takashi Tokita.
Tokita's contributions to storylines/plot in FFIV have been SUPER duper repeated in later iterations of the FF series. Or both, Sakaguchi and Tokita- it is admittedly difficult to sift the two out from one another, especially in a collaboration. Considering that Tokita himself said that the characters in FFIV were like his children, I think he was heavily involved with their creation.
I firmly believe that besides Sakaguchi, this guy is the heart of Square. Morally, Meaningfully, and Spiritually. (Not in respect to Moogles and Chocobos, though). Much of every thing else from Square's early stages is hot air (Yes, including FFVI- there's no enough substance there in the main plot at times.). There are touches are and there- Hiromichi Tanaka's work on Secret of Mana, Kenji Terada, who served as the scenario writer with Sakaguchi for the first 3 FFs.
But I don't know what it is about this guy's writing (he seems to write quirky, yet memorable characters), but (besides great timing which included working as a writer on FFIV with Sakaguchi, in which the FF team tried taking the best parts of the first three Final Fantasies) I think Tokita gets it the most. If he solo wrote on his own, he might be one of the most powerful writers in Square. Even better than Nojima and Nomura, though they are great at writing emotionally, psychologically, and complex driven narratives and characters, they fail to understand one key aspect- the differences between good and evil, and I think that they also fail to understand consequence enough or the weight of consequences. Some of that is left over from FFVI (Empire=bad; Shinra=bad; rebels=good, Avalanche= good (most of the time)) in FFVII's writing. Despite characters (like Barret, for instance) acknowledging their guilt for their actions or saying that they shouldn't have done certain things, it seems like there's not enough attention called to good and evil. Instead, there is more of a nihilism to FFVII, instead of good and evil being acknowledged in FFIV in a discrete way (Cecil's appearance as a noble Paladin after being a cowardly dark knight) without being simplified, as I believe and feel with FFVI, as well as several characters (Cecil, Kain, Golbez) showing both good and evil traits or actions (Cecil-cowardice, Kain- jealously, selfishness, Golbez- anger, hate to a brother).
Or, it's not based on right or wrong, as much as it is a focus on the personal or psychological.
VINCENT: Kill Sephiroth… ……Killing the son of my beloved woman… “Am I on the verge of committing……another sin?
Vincent, how dense are you? This is your reason for not wanting to kill this guy? Because he was the son of your love? This guy's a mass murderer who psychologically manipulated Cloud into giving him the thing to destroy life from the entire planet.
Also, I find it interesting in FFVII about how the team (Vincent?, Cloud) supposedly sympathizes with Hojo, and I still don't really know why. It's been said in one of the FFVII Ultimanias (2006 one) that Hojo's driven by his inferiority complex (and tries being rivals with Professor Gast, I guess?). So, maybe the team thinks that Hojo couldn't just do any better and was put into this system with Shinra, thinking that he had to be the best and upholding science as his lifelong ambition and job.
VINCENT: Hojo…what a queer fellow.”( houjou ...... fukou na otoko )「宝条……不幸な男」
“Such utter lack of scientific talent…( kagakuteki sensu nonasa ......「科学的センスのなさ……compared with the genius of Dr. Gast…”tsukimatou tensai gasuto hakase tono hikaku ......) つきまとう天才ガスト博士との比較……」
“Lucrecia chose him in order to protect him.”( rukurettsua ha houjou wo「ルクレッツアは宝条をmamoro utoshiteaitsuwo eran da ......) 守ろうとしてあいつを選んだ……」
“Now I understand…( imanarawakaru ......「いまならわかる……
I understand…but…”wakaruga ...... shikashi ......) わかるが……しかし……」
It also seems that Hojo was targeted by Shinra if he were to fail at his job? Or, maybe Lucretia was trying to protect Hojo from being humiliated?
Hmm. Purple-haired Alicia from Live A Live seems similar in her response in respect to Straybow, coincidently.
Interesting.
And why is Lucrecia named Lucrecia? Well...
The name of the kingdom in Live A Live is: ルクレチア= Lucretia. And I did some research- it is, evidently ルクレチア, not ルクレツィア, unless it's possible to combine certain Japanese characters or substitute them. But I definitely looked, and it is: ルクレチア. So, unless the 3DS version (which I cannot currently find) had it slightly different, it is ルクレチア.
In FFVII, the name of Sephiroth's mother is: ルクレッツィア, something more akin to Lucrecia or Lucrezia than Lucretia. However, apparently this was later or retroactively changed to ルクレツィア in Dirge of Cerberus (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ダージュ_オブ_ケルベロス_ファイナルファンタジーVII). Google Translate tells me that it's Lucrezia, despite the missing character of ッ. Nevertheless, the name is suspiciously similar to the kingdom's name. And to be fair, the OG FVII, has it as Lucrecia.
Anyways, my suspicions remain high. This is likely where Square has taken the name from. Ironically, I have heard some fans say that Lucrecia in FFVII's name is derived from Lucretia (noblewoman) of Roman history. But the name actually lines up more closely with Live A Live's kingdom, which is exact, whereas in FFVII, it's close but not exact. Also, it's possible that Lucrecia's character was a reference to the historical figure, but it sort of conflicts with the idea of Lucrecia choosing Hojo to protect him. However, both Alicia (of Lucretia) and Lucrecia themselves attempt to commit suicide like the figure- only Alicia is successful. What's notable about the figure is she kills herself with a dagger, as does Alicia. But we have no idea how Lucrecia attempted to kill herself in FFVII, only that she has tried.
And then we have:
In respect to FFVII, there's the Honey Bee Inn play scene where they say:
"It's the curse of the resurrected Satan…"yomigaerishi maou no noroi ka ... よみがえりし魔王の呪いか…
Technically, the demon king isn't revived here, but its legacy is, as far as I know. Apparently, anyone can draw on the power of the demon king's statue to become a demon king in Live A Live. So, I think the demon king (魔王- mao) in Live A Live bears some sort of connection to Sephiroth.
I think that legacy plays a huge role in FFVII, something that might be only somewhat explained/examined loosely in FFVI (Kefka succeeding the statues, Celes and Kefka to inherit the Empire under Gestault, etc.), but this "inheriting" of power, the next villain arising from the ashes of the past is an interesting concept. And it does seem to be present in Live A Live. And I think, coincidentally or not, fits FFVII better in respect to Live A Live's knight chapter "King of Demons" plot and sub-sequent pick-up plot/s at the end of the game. Also, one of the interesting things in FFIV was the idea that Zeromus would still persist as long evil remained in the hearts of mankind. This seems to be an extension of this idea- a "whatif" scenario in Live A Live and possibly in FFVII, assuming that Jenova was nearly dead/brain dead or overshadowed by Sephiroth. So, the demon king here in Live A Live appears to be Zeromus, but he apparently stuck to/was driven to his lair, and then later killed by a party of people. And to be frank, this is fairly the same as what happened to Jenova and the remaining Ancients. Jenova makes monsters from its cells/replicates parts of itself, and a small band of people put it to death, seemingly. The demon king also commands a number of monsters, as well as Zemus, as there are those loyal to Zemus in FFIV.
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