Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
A few things I found from scrapped ideas from the OG here in reddit, from the Ultimania Omega. There are interesting tidbits, some could be used in Remake, tweaked in some ways (like Tifa and Aerith talking about Cloud and Zack, yes please, in Kalm, I've asked that since last year). Some also point out at things that aren't very clear but are still there:

Anyway, the plan was also to let players read Tifa's diary while Cloud was in her house. You can't read it in the OG FF7. There are only some letters addressed to her later from her mentor Zangan left on her desk in the final cut.


Last night I read a book by a man called Mon Mos. It said that Mako energy was like the blood of the planet, and if we keep using it like we are now it’ll shorten the life of the planet.
***
I wonder if Wel, Dan, Meiday, and the other boys who left the village are doing alright?
All the boys left for the city. They all called me out to the water tower. They all said the same things.
Ah, except for Cloud. He said something about joining SOLDIER?
I wonder how long he’s been thinking about that. He was always pretty distant from everyone else, but still bothered about everyone else.
To be frank, he was kind of a strange kid. Always getting into fights. It wasn’t like he was fighting because he was angry, more like he was testing something. What was he trying to test? His own strength?
***
I thought about Cloud today.
Since when did he change?
I think the boys started to hate Cloud when he was 8. That’s when he used start fights with anybody.
When Cloud was 8… I was 7. The year mum died. I don’t remember much about that year. It’s kind of a strange feeling, like being myself but at the same time not. But even since then, it’s felt like I’ve been obssessed with Mt. Nibel.​
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There are two interesting tidbits in this diary: you can see how Tifa actually got interested in Cloud and thought about him every day and how she developped her feelings; and she mentions that it's only when he's 8 years old that he starts fighting with the other boys, how it looked to her that he was testing his strength. This is Cloud who feels guilty that he couldn't protect her, takes it out on every other boy around her, trying to get stronger... to be able to protect her. Also, his master plan of joining SOLDIER to impress the girl of his dreams and catch her attention *did* work in the end LOL, even though he didn't make it to SOLDIER.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
OK, I didn't want to do this but I am definitely triple posting :wacky:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400145773254393858

This has come out... Remember when we wondered if it was a real memory or a fake one because it was a new one we didn't know? Turns out the devs have highlighted in the last Ultimania that this is a *fake* memory, created by Jenova.

And when thinking about it... IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!

What does this scene convey?

It conveys Cloud's true desire to be noticed by Tifa. But it also ends in a bizarre note: Cloud ignoring Tifa. Which is a very clever call back to... Kalm flashback, where Cloud and Tifa don't interact at all. And remember, as in the OG true Cloud in a dream tries to reach out and asks "why didn't you and Tifa talk, where was Tifa", etc. trying to pull our attention on the detail that is *bizarre*, Remake takes a double dive on this.

We absolutely don't realise this because it's the first flashback of Tifa, in the very first chapter, and Cloud hasn't really interacted with Tifa yet. But... Remake makes it extra visible that Cloud can't say "no" to Tifa, that she always gets his attention. So this scene rings... strange, amiss. Because while Jenova could understand Cloud's desire to be noticed by Tifa, she also didn't understand the very reason why Cloud wanted to be noticed. So in the memory, they didn't interact. Just like in the Kalm flashback in the OG.

And in the very first chapter, we now have a very short scene that shows how much Cloud wants to be noticed by Tifa at the question "what kind of relationship do you have with Tifa?" This scene alone shows how much Tifa matters to Cloud at her first mention, and by itself is already a big hint at the LS scene.
 
KindOfBlue

KindOfBlue

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Blue
Eerie said:
OK, I didn't want to do this but I am definitely triple posting :wacky:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400145773254393858

This has come out... Remember when we wondered if it was a real memory or a fake one because it was a new one we didn't know? Turns out the devs have highlighted in the last Ultimania that this is a *fake* memory, created by Jenova.

And when thinking about it... IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!

What does this scene convey?

It conveys Cloud's true desire to be noticed by Tifa. But it also ends in a bizarre note: Cloud ignoring Tifa. Which is a very clever call back to... Kalm flashback, where Cloud and Tifa don't interact at all. And remember, as in the OG true Cloud in a dream tries to reach out and asks "why didn't you and Tifa talk, where was Tifa", etc. trying to pull our attention on the detail that is *bizarre*, Remake takes a double dive on this.

We absolutely don't realise this because it's the first flashback of Tifa, in the very first chapter, and Cloud hasn't really interacted with Tifa yet. But... Remake makes it extra visible that Cloud can't say "no" to Tifa, that she always gets his attention. So this scene rings... strange, amiss. Because while Jenova could understand Cloud's desire to be noticed by Tifa, she also didn't understand the very reason why Cloud wanted to be noticed. So in the memory, they didn't interact. Just like in the Kalm flashback in the OG.

And in the very first chapter, we now have a very short scene that shows how much Cloud wants to be noticed by Tifa at the question "what kind of relationship do you have with Tifa?" This scene alone shows how much Tifa matters to Cloud at her first mention, and by itself is already a big hint at the LS scene.
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I guess that confirms my suspicions from a few months ago...
KindOfBlue said:
I’m pretty sure that version of “Anxiety” in disc 1 plays during the flashback Cloud has of Tifa as a kid in the beginning of the remake (“are you ignoring me?!”) but the subtitle is “False Memories”...interesting...
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A

a_apple 2.0

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a_apple
Eerie said:
It conveys Cloud's true desire to be noticed by Tifa. But it also ends in a bizarre note: Cloud ignoring Tifa. Which is a very clever call back to... Kalm flashback, where Cloud and Tifa don't interact at all. And remember, as in the OG true Cloud in a dream tries to reach out and asks "why didn't you and Tifa talk, where was Tifa", etc. trying to pull our attention on the detail that is *bizarre*, Remake takes a double dive on this.
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That's probably how he acted around Tifa and her friends that's how she remembers him which is again something that Jenova copies from her memories and than implanted into Clouds when Tifa finds him at the train station, so he is left with all those conflicting emotions.
 
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Shadowfox

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
Eerie said:
OK, I didn't want to do this but I am definitely triple posting :wacky:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400145773254393858

This has come out... Remember when we wondered if it was a real memory or a fake one because it was a new one we didn't know? Turns out the devs have highlighted in the last Ultimania that this is a *fake* memory, created by Jenova.

And when thinking about it... IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!

What does this scene convey?

It conveys Cloud's true desire to be noticed by Tifa. But it also ends in a bizarre note: Cloud ignoring Tifa. Which is a very clever call back to... Kalm flashback, where Cloud and Tifa don't interact at all. And remember, as in the OG true Cloud in a dream tries to reach out and asks "why didn't you and Tifa talk, where was Tifa", etc. trying to pull our attention on the detail that is *bizarre*, Remake takes a double dive on this.

We absolutely don't realise this because it's the first flashback of Tifa, in the very first chapter, and Cloud hasn't really interacted with Tifa yet. But... Remake makes it extra visible that Cloud can't say "no" to Tifa, that she always gets his attention. So this scene rings... strange, amiss. Because while Jenova could understand Cloud's desire to be noticed by Tifa, she also didn't understand the very reason why Cloud wanted to be noticed. So in the memory, they didn't interact. Just like in the Kalm flashback in the OG.

And in the very first chapter, we now have a very short scene that shows how much Cloud wants to be noticed by Tifa at the question "what kind of relationship do you have with Tifa?" This scene alone shows how much Tifa matters to Cloud at her first mention, and by itself is already a big hint at the LS scene.
Click to expand...

Even from the original FFVII, I never ever took their childhood relationship to be one where Tifa was completely unaware of Cloud; some of the lines she'd had about Cloud gave me the impression that she had noticed him in some way and that they'd probably interacted with each other from time to time. They were neighbours, and even though we know that they weren't that close when they were kids, they were also not strangers either. It came across to me that Cloud chose to stay aloof from Tifa and the others because he was shy and awkward and didn't know how to act around others.

So for me, seeing this flashback in Remake, it didn't really go against what I'd already felt about their childhood relationship.

Now with this ultimania excerpt, I do wonder how much of the memory was fake, or how much/little of the actual relationship it's meant to convey to us. It definitely makes me curious to see more about Cloud's mental condition with Jenova and his current fake persona, and how it's going to be manipulated by Sephiroth later. It also makes me feel that the Lifestream reveal and resolution between them will probably be pretty intense.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
This is honestly the pure answer to "what type of relationship do you have with Tifa?" To simply put it, Tifa did not notice him, and he wanted to be noticed. It's the core of the Lifestream scene. It showcases Tifa's importance to Cloud, from the very first chapter, so it's very sickkkkkkkk to me. I know that now clotis are scrambling to see what flashbacks are real and non-manipulated, and honestly? I think just the promise scene is intact. It's the only one that doesn't give him a headache.

Also, it's revealed that Cloud is mimicking Zack's move when he gave Tifa the flower and I'm like... "I KNEW IT WAS TOO SMOOTH FOR CLOUD" hahahaha! It doesn't bother me at all that he's using Zack's technique to make a move on Tifa. Because it's a mannerism that soon dies out, and it's interesting that it's precisely this scene that Tifa is referring to in her resolution - the flower was from Aerith, the move from Zack, where is your heart in all of this, Cloud? It's also interesting because we know that after this, Cloud does relax and become more himself around her. So, it's gradual. Think about how he must have anticipated this meeting with her lol.

We know it's going to be a while still before those two can truly meet up, so I'm finding all of this really interesting, because it sheds a new light on Cloud's mental state, on their relationship and how it *does* progress. And I absolutely love how even with his poor mental state, Tifa's really, really special to Cloud, even if he can't remember why, the way the game showcases how Tifa is different really is the thing that makes me go "awww".
 
J

JT77fp

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Interesting....that scene being a fake memory does make sense to me. I'd always wondered why young cloud chose to ignore and annoy Tifa at that point in Remake.

My take on it is: The fake memory is consistent with his Soldier persona because he represses the painful memories of wanting to be noticed by Tifa and included in her circle of friends, replacing it instead with a memory that he was too cool for them. That they were silly and he would avoid them. This too, is consistent with the OG Lifestream events where he actually says something like that! I'll have to check the actual OG script. Well played, SE.

I guess the reason Cloud remembered the promise scene correctly was because Tifa wanted him to be a hero. No need to repress "good" memories such as those.
 
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Shadowfox

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
Eerie said:
Also, it's revealed that Cloud is mimicking Zack's move when he gave Tifa the flower and I'm like... "I KNEW IT WAS TOO SMOOTH FOR CLOUD" hahahaha! It doesn't bother me at all that he's using Zack's technique to make a move on Tifa.
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Cloud wants to get close Tifa, but at the same time he doesn't know how to and/or lacks the confidence to do it. He learns from and then mimics Zack and Barret to give her the flower and the hug.

JT77fp said:
My take on it is: The fake memory is consistent with his Soldier persona because he represses the painful memories of wanting to be noticed by Tifa and included in her circle of friends, replacing it instead with a memory that he was too cool for them. That they were silly and he would avoid them. This too, is consistent with the OG Lifestream events where he actually says something like that! I'll have to check the actual OG script. Well played, SE.
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I wonder if this false memory is also using the parts of Tifa's recollections of Cloud that Jenova had picked up when it read her memories.

IIRC, in the Lifestream he said that he would think of himself as different or better than the other kids, that they were stupid and always acting childish (to which Tifa rightfully pointed out that they were literally children).
 
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frosty

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The Snowman
Eerie said:
I know that now clotis are scrambling to see what flashbacks are real and non-manipulated, and honestly? I think just the promise scene is intact. It's the only one that doesn't give him a headache.
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You could be on to something . Most of Cloud's flashback scenes are are those with headaches / green flashes / staticky noises i.e.
1. His flashback of Tifa in Nibelheim where he ignored her
2. Of her as a little girl (Going up the mountain with her friends) when Aerith asked his relationship status
3. All of those of the Nibelheim incident

And the only one that isn't accompanied by any weirdness of any kind etc. is of the promise.

But it's then also interesting that his forward visions of Aerith's death is also accompanied by that whole green tinge / static noise / headache so what does it all meannnnnnn
 
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Stiggie

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Stiggie
frosty said:
You could be on to something . Most of Cloud's flashback scenes are are those with headaches / green flashes / staticky noises i.e.
1. His flashback of Tifa in Nibelheim where he ignored her
2. Of her as a little girl (Going up the mountain with her friends) when Aerith asked his relationship status
3. All of those of the Nibelheim incident

And the only one that isn't accompanied by any weirdness of any kind etc. is of the promise.

But it's then also interesting that his forward visions of Aerith's death is also accompanied by that whole green tinge / static noise / headache so what does it all meannnnnnn
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The promise scene is specifically one from the lifestream sequence, it seems clear to me that even though Cloud is wondering about the authenticity of it, that the importance lies in the fact that even when he forgot everything else, and his memories were a fabrication, that promise is something he never forgot. The promise scene is real, 1-on-1, it's one of the few core things that are truly Cloud, that nothing could ever take away from him.

What I am pretty sure is fake is him imagining Tifa turning around and smiling (when he's with Aerith and the kids), I am almost certain that's a reflection of his desires.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Stiggie said:
What I am pretty sure is fake is him imagining Tifa turning around and smiling (when he's with Aerith and the kids), I am almost certain that's a reflection of his desires.
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Yeah, I'm quite sure that this happens when Tifa's mum dies and she goes to Mount Nibel. We all noticed it was weird she'd turn around because in the OG, she didn't. But back then and now, Cloud still wished she'd turn around and notice him. But Tifa was too caught up in her own sadness to notice anyone, that day. When you think about it, it's a shame, because had it been any other day, she very probably would have talked to him. But that day she didn't want to talk to anyone.

However, this is the day that cements their relationship; Cloud's need to be noticed, but also to protect her. Tifa still takes a few years before noticing him - the unused files from the OG are very interesting, with her diary you can see her thinking more and more about Cloud.
 
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a_apple 2.0

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a_apple
Eerie said:
Yeah, I'm quite sure that this happens when Tifa's mum dies and she goes to Mount Nibel. We all noticed it was weird she'd turn around because in the OG, she didn't. But back then and now, Cloud still wished she'd turn around and notice him. But Tifa was too caught up in her own sadness to notice anyone, that day. When you think about it, it's a shame, because had it been any other day, she very probably would have talked to him. But that day she didn't want to talk to anyone.

However, this is the day that cements their relationship; Cloud's need to be noticed, but also to protect her. Tifa still takes a few years before noticing him - the unused files from the OG are very interesting, with her diary you can see her thinking more and more about Cloud.
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so Cloud added in his mind that she turned around and smiled at him? There was always that question of how much of the feelings Clouds held for Tifa as a kid/teenager actually applied to his grown up self, looks like they really didn't change at all.
 
KindOfBlue

KindOfBlue

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a_apple 2.0 said:
so Cloud added in his mind that she turned around and smiled at him? There was always that question of how much of the feelings Clouds held for Tifa as a kid/teenager actually applied to his grown up self, looks like they really didn't change at all.
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Not to get into LTD stuff but it’s always weird to me when people insist Cloud got over his feelings for Tifa over the years even though for him, the last five years were spent in a coma and one of the last things he remembers is worrying that she was killed by Sephiroth
 
Shadowfox

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
I wonder if the remake will try to depict the internal effects of Cloud's missing time later, once he's regained his true self. Like, some indications to show how fresh the loss of his mother and village still is with him. I recently saw a couple of screenshots where in the OG at the Cosmo Canyon bonfire, where Tifa made some remark that hinted at her uneasiness at the sight of the fire. If Tifa has this kind of reaction five years later, what would it be like for Cloud who's not actually had any time or opportunity to try and work through his similar experience?
 
KindOfBlue

KindOfBlue

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Blue
Shadowfox said:
I wonder if the remake will try to depict the internal effects of Cloud's missing time later, once he's regained his true self. Like, some indications to show how fresh the loss of his mother and village still is with him. I recently saw a couple of screenshots where in the OG at the Cosmo Canyon bonfire, where Tifa made some remark that hinted at her uneasiness at the sight of the fire. If Tifa has this kind of reaction five years later, what would it be like for Cloud who's not actually had any time or opportunity to try and work through his similar experience?
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So far we’ve had at least two flashbacks triggered by Cloud just looking at stuff and being reminded of home, with the fan in chapter 4 reminding him of the water tower in Nibelheim and his promise to Tifa and the fire caused by the mako reactor bombing in chapter 2 reminding him of the fires of Nibelheim burning down, and with the recent reveal that Sephiroth used Cloud’s mother’s dying words to mock him, it really seems they’re giving attention to Cloud’s trauma in a way that even the OG didn’t really do too much...the poor boy :'(
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah, this is why Northern Crater and the Lifestream scenes are going to be so impactful. But what I also enjoy is to remember that he is 16 in a 21 years old guy's body, really. It's especially visible when he's with Tifa, and so eager to learn how to act as an adult, why he keeps referring to these life lessons she gave him.

And that's when we understand that him borrowing Zack's mannerism to flirt with Tifa come into play: he doesn't know how to flirt, but he does badly want to! In the bar, when they flirt again, the devs have said it was awkward, which is very true. He tries very hard here to flirt with her in a way that would please her, and that's why his first compliment isn't enough nor smooth.

And of course, this is also why he doesn't know how to console Tifa, and he has to learn it from Barret. Everyone in FFVII makes him grow, he's catching up, but it's a hard path. There will still be 5 years missing, he's very young in his head. He's learning all the things he can right now. IMHO his growth is done with the end of ACC, where he is able to accept himself, his failures, his happiness. It's a very long arc, if you think about it.
 
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frosty

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The Snowman
So clearly the story depicts that Cloud learns that comfort sad girl with hug = good from Barret...but now I'm just curious to know they would then depict where Cloud observed from Zack how to flirt.

When they were in Shinra together? Did he watch Zack randomly and (maybe abit carelessly) hit on other women in Shinra? Did he listen to Zack speak to Aerith and take notes????

It's not shown in any of the compilation or CC, so I have lots of questions. I need to know. lol.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah there was no source for that though, I need to see the exact translation :') They were friends, so I'm sure there are plenty of convos we never saw between the two.
 
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a_apple 2.0

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frosty said:
So clearly the story depicts that Cloud learns that comfort sad girl with hug = good from Barret...but now I'm just curious to know they would then depict where Cloud observed from Zack how to flirt.

When they were in Shinra together? Did he watch Zack randomly and (maybe abit carelessly) hit on other women in Shinra? Did he listen to Zack speak to Aerith and take notes????

It's not shown in any of the compilation or CC, so I have lots of questions. I need to know. lol.
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I think one of the Ultimanias refereed to Cloud taking "mental aspects" from Zack, maybe his new confident pick up moves came also from there
 
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frosty

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The Snowman
Mr. Ite said:
This is the kind of insanity photo mode is here for lmao
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Haha I love it! Not that it proves anything in regards to shipping, but little Easter eggs i.e. the OG bar picture hanging in Seventh Heaven / Tifa's OG cowboy boots in her room / Aerith's OG uggs in her room make me super happy :)
 
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