The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Nandemoyasan]

wonder if my ex-wife's posts complaining about what a monster I am are still up

 

[Ite]

Yeah wow Livejournal still exists! And I definitely do not still post there.... <.< >.> (I don't really, it's so stuffed full of Russian bots that it's become useless to try)

 

[Dashell]

welp

 

[fancy]

 

[Tetsujin]

 

[Dashell]

It's really kind of a shame no one cares about this anymore lol

 

[Lex]

I mean, it's great though. Because we can discuss it like normal people rather than it descending into the insane shitfest that it used to

It's very interesting to me that they've chosen to lay it out that way. It doesn't say anything we didn't already know (it's not like the content of the game has changed any) but to have the official English translation of the ultimania be this explicit? Very interesting indeed.

 

[fancy]

I think LTD has become one of those things where folks will remain set in their ways regardless of what “evidence” may be presented to them. By this point, after all these years, after all the evidence that’s been shown and the debates taken on, you’re either of one camp or the other or you still don’t give a shit and will remain as such. Like devotees who cannot fathom a world without the god that they worship. We could see full on ass slap action in the remake and there will still be those shouting, “It’s not canon tho.”

I feel like there’s a specific word for whatever the LTD has become. I wanna say ‘paradox’ or ‘conundrum’ but it’s not quite that. Anyway, I reckon that’s what this beast has evolved to

 

[Dashell]

I mean, it's great though. Because we can discuss it like normal people rather than it descending into the insane shitfest that it used to

Well according to what I've seen the translation is just wrong so


but yeah color me just as susprised

 

[Roger]

I feel like there’s a specific word for whatever the LTD has become. I wanna say ‘paradox’ or ‘conundrum’ but it’s not quite that. Anyway, I reckon that’s what this beast has evolved to

Gordian knot?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I've always enjoyed watching the mental and semantic gymnastics as the Clotis/Cleriths try to demonstrate that "the only person he held close to heart was Tifa" either doesn't mean what it means or conversely means that he never cared for that ho Aerith at all.

 

[Strangelove]

Well according to what I've seen the translation is just wrong so


but yeah color me just as susprised

oh my god yes, yes

yaaaas

i am living for it

well not really but i am vaguely amused by it

do they say specially what is wrong with it? as in point directly to what is wrong and how?

i don’t remember what the original lines were or which book this is meant to be (is it a translation of the memorial ultimanias? because i never bought those but i am sure there are pics of it for an article that i will check later?)

 

[Dashell]

No just that the translations are "botched" and if you are a Clerith, don't bother buying the book. I also read there MIGHT be an anti-Clerith behind all the translations. No, I'm serious, someone said that... I guess some things never change

 

[Strangelove]

at this point i am just a petty bitch and after years of 'yeah but that's not the official translation so who knows if it's right' seeing this now is just

*mwah*

 

[Dashell]

Hey at least the French OTWTAS got it right


all this LTD stuff recently makes me miss people though. Like Ryushikaze... anyone know what happened to him? Isabella? FairHeartStrife? OneWingDemon?

I miss them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like there’s a specific word for whatever the LTD has become. I wanna say ‘paradox’ or ‘conundrum’ but it’s not quite that. Anyway, I reckon that’s what this beast has evolved to

"Evolved" showing up in this topic immediately strikes me as an overly generous use of the term.

Silliness aside, I think the concept you're thinking about here is basically that of political tribalism, with its behavior of entrenchment and demonization. It's long since passed that this disagreement in the fandom stopped being about what the details of the subject matter were or what a good faith look at that material yielded. It's even long since passed that the disagreement stopped being about who fans liked in the game.

It long ago became predominantly about just who (i.e. which other fans) they didn't like. Or even hated.

I'm not laying the blame for that on any one side or any one handful of participants either. Anyone who watched this highway car wreck piling up can tell you there was plenty of toxicity to go around, and anyone involved in it for long will -- if they're being honest -- admit to spewing some of that poison. (Anyone who isn't Quexinos, I guess. She genuinely handled herself with dignity and grace throughout all these years.)

I got my copy of this book two days ago, and while some petty, vengeful part of me was thinking it would be satisfying to mock those who have called me dishonest with how the official translations in this book match up with mine from several years ago -- all of them, actually, not just the ones about Cloud and Tifa; especially those, though, and the ones about Squall/Rinoa and Zell/the library girl that used the same phrasing in Japanese -- I knew it wouldn't actually bring any satisfaction. No more happiness than the "gotcha"-ing and shitposting we see every day in the U.S. political sphere genuinely gives to the bitter people doing that.

We've joked many times here that the LTD is evil. And it is. It really is. But fan ego and malice made it that way. Unchecked resentment turned the mundane into this Soul Edge-like malevolence that just hungers for more animosity.

There's so much more excellence and celebration of these wonderful FF games in this book than half a dozen or so paragraphs related to the most (bafflingly) enduring fringe point of contention this fandom hss ever seen.

If we want to talk about Aerith and Tifa with regard to this book, well, how about we look at this relationship chart from very early in development, and its implications for who the two characters are:

Here we have a character named "Tifa" who is one of only three main characters (Cloud and Barret being the other two) and has attached to her elements of both of the characters we would come to know as Tifa and Aerith: pursued by Shin-Ra/the Turks (Aerith attribute), a friend of Cloud's (Tifa attribute), possible sibling to Sephiroth (early development Aerith attribute), and a design resembling Tifa.

We all know that Cloud, Barret and Aerith were the first three playable characters decided on for FFVII, and the only three who had been more or less finalized when the decision was made that one of the main characters needed to be killed off during the story. We also know that an idea considered early in development was that of Aerith and Sephiroth being siblings -- so that's definitely applicable to Aerith rather than Tifa. And we also all know of the infamous "Let's kill Aerith and bring out Tifa" conversation that took place between Nomura and Kitase.

The question I'm finding myself with now is this: What if by "bring out Tifa," Nomura literally meant they should pull some of the attributes that solidified into her out of the original concept for Aerith?

This is all just my speculation, of course, but it appears to me that -- during the earliest stages of her creation -- the team initially hadn't decided whether Aerith would be named "Aerith" or "Tifa"; and that Nomura also proposed a design for "Aerith" that would later be used for Tifa once he and Kitase had the "bring out" conversation.

Long story short, I think Aerith and Tifa were the same character at one incredibly early point. This proto-Aerith eventually became two separate characters after the decision was made to kill off the only heroine the game had at that early stage of development.

Isn't this way more fun and interesting to think about than hate love triangle shenanigans? Let us just let this evil devour itself.

 

[Strangelove]

tbh i have long since transcended thinking that explaining stuff will convince people whose minds are already made. i am on another plane of existence.

but i am finding the idea a little funny and feeling personally vindicated is. kinda nice.

but i am impressed that they actually translated the text on that chart as well. that's pretty cool.

 

[Dashell]

I'm kinda interested in that "The three lost beings" thing too... what is that all about?

Also damn that old Sephiroth design... I'm glad he turned out the way he did but the old one looks pretty cool

(Anyone who isn't Quexinos, I guess. She genuinely handled herself with dignity and grace throughout all these years.)

Oh wow thanks ... I feel like I was a bitch sometimes though. Honestly I just believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. That can bite me in the ass sometimes though

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tseng - perfect from his very inception.

 

[Strangelove]

i wish there were more things about this particular early concept. like who are the lost beings, or the guardians? did they eventually morph into something different in the final game? what secrets are you hiding

 

[hleV]

Long story short, I think Aerith and Tifa were the same character at one incredibly early point. This proto-Aerith eventually became two separate characters after the decision was made to kill off the only heroine the game had at that early stage of development.

Isn't this way more fun and interesting to think about than hate love triangle shenanigans? Let us just let this evil devour itself.

Shut down the LTD, Tifa & Aerith are the same person

 

[fancy]

If Aerith and Tifa are the same person....

...then everybody wins. ​

YOUR SHIP IS CANON. YOUR SHIP IS CANON.

EVERYBODY’S SHIP IS CANON

 

[ForceStealer]

So would it still be a threesome....?

 

[CrashOuch]

Yeah, it would be like a threesome with twins, right?

 

[Random Nobody]

[image]

welp