What is the business of post-meteor Shinra?

Nothing wrong with having ambition!
Nobody seems to have any problem with Reeve being the de facto ruler of the world.
I wouldn't say Rufus becomes an altruist; it doesn't have to be either/or. He's not the hero or the villain, he's just a secondary antagonist. It's not exactly sudden either. In the Compilation he has to confront his own imminent death multiple times. He is forced to rely on his wits in order to stay alive, and is thrown together with ordinary people whom he tries to motivate and sustain. All of that is going to change a person, especially when they're as young as he is. The really odd thing would be if it didn't change him.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I forgot what a bitch Rufus was with that "it totally fell out of the helicopter, bro" line. What a punk.

I just can't see the guy who once boldly declared he would "control the world with fear." Could suddenly become an altruist. We know he's helping people with healin lodge, using the Turks to dispose of undesirables, and secretly funding the WRO. I can't help but think he's trying to raise his image so that Shinra may one day be raised to its former position.

Why would Rufus tell the truth to Kadaj?

Something I’ve noticed about him, though. He’s actually kind of a bad liar. His tone of voice has a rather obvious inflection in both audio tracks when he is outright lying. I think it is more in line with his natural demeanor to be rather blunt unless the interaction is tersely political, when we look at his dialog throughout the compilation.

He didn’t “suddenly” become an altruist. The character transition could have been a little smoother, especially as far as providing more detailed internal dialog, but he went through a lot of humbling shit in Case of Shinra. After breaking a bunch of bones in the escape hatch, he was kidnapped and interrogated by a sadist named Mutten. I believe Mutten is supposed to embody Rufus’ ideology when taken to its logical conclusion and serve as a sort of foil to Rufus. Rufus is bothered by the fact that he tortures people for fun rather than as a “necessary evil.” It’s here that he begins to learn what it’s like to actually be powerless and be the one controlled by fear.

He is then kidnapped by a doctor who he eventually realizes is another mad scientist, and is forced to live in close proximity with Geostigma patients. One of the patients helps him walk to the facility.. cave, and he shows genuine concern for her wellbeing when the cave is then flooded. Then he catches Geostigma himself.

Before this story, Rufus really doesn’t seem to know what the world is like beyond the walls of the Shinra company, and I see him as someone who has been isolated for most of his life. Regular people were just a concept to him until he’s thrown off his high horse, forced to see the suffering first hand, and forced to rebuild and take responsibility not just for his own actions, but take the burden for his father’s actions as well.

Rufus is not and will probably never be what one would consider conventionally affectionate, at least not publicly, but life experience has taught him empathy. Before those experiences, his entire world revolved solely around beating his father by whatever means necessary, and doing whatever it took to be taken seriously (which he obviously concluded was through fear), to compensate for his lack of intrinsic self worth, which is still a large part of his character, but now there is a lot more substance. His actions will improve his public image, but power as a motive takes a back seat to redemption, the latter of which is a recurring theme for virtually every single character in post-meteor materials.
 
Last edited:

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Something I’ve noticed about him, though. He’s actually kind of a bad liar. His tone of voice has a rather obvious inflection in both audio tracks when he is outright lying.

It's just because he's cocky. Kadaj knows he's lying, and Rufus knows he knows. He knows he's making a ridiculous claim, but Kadaj can't kill him while he's the only one who knows Jenova's location, so he's mocking him.
Similarly his blatant lie to Cloud after Cloud threatens him for hiding something. "I’d never keep a secret. Not from a comrade." This is so obviously and comically false, but he says it anyway because it's Rufus.

He's not evil but he's not an altruist either. His experiences have definitely changed him, but he still wants to be on top, he just knows it isn't the right play now.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Why would Rufus tell the truth to Kadaj?
No its not that he lied, its how blatantly obvious the lie is. lol whoops we dropped it. At no point was that lie going to work; Rufus knew it, Kadaj knew it, everybody knew Rufus was full of shit right there, and its really funny.

Edit: Oh, yeah, what Force said.

I should say, I don't think Rufus is putting on an act or anything. I really do think he learned some compassion after his wacky cave-flood adventure. I just think his way of "helping people" would mean slowly amassing power until he's in a position of control again, and then running the world in a way he sees fit that would be "beneficial" for everyone. If ever "Final Fantsy VII-2" were to exist, I could see Rufus' growing faction as a secondary antagonist, wanting Cloud gone for posing a threat to his world view. Maybe I'm too hard on old Rupert.
 
Last edited:

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
It was pretty hilarious. Rufus was the biggest troll in that whole movie and I love it. It’s almost as if he’s self aware of how ridiculous Advent Children is.

Another thing I’ve wondered is regarding how he kind of casts his head down and puts his hand over his face as he apologizes to Cloud and asks for his help - is he slyly trying to display that he has the stigma and is ready to redeem himself (or illicit pity, even..?), or is he doing that because he is embarrassed to ask Cloud for help - or is it a combination of both?

I’m not sure we’re really in disagreement. Taking control of things is definitely Rufus’ way of helping people. It’s his profession, his skillset. Is he gonna throw on a hard hat and build a road or volunteer at a soup kitchen? :monster:

It’s hard to tell if he desires absolute power for Shinra (though I recall some Ultimania profile that I can’t find that does seem to suggest this), but if he does, I think this would be where his personal desires and daddy issues begin to eclipse his goal to help build a better world. He probably sees himself/aspires to be an Augustus Caesar type figure, and justifies that things would be better streamlined and under his control and that he can do it right unlike dad. But the fact is that world governments don’t tend to work well. Another issue is, to whom will he entrust the company (and thus the world) when he dies?
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
He didn’t “suddenly” become an altruist. The character transition could have been a little smoother, especially as far as providing more detailed internal dialog, but he went through a lot of humbling shit in Case of Shinra. After breaking a bunch of bones in the escape hatch, he was kidnapped and interrogated by a sadist named Mutten. I believe Mutten is supposed to embody Rufus’ ideology when taken to its logical conclusion and serve as a sort of foil to Rufus. Rufus is bothered by the fact that he tortures people for fun rather than as a “necessary evil.” It’s here that he begins to learn what it’s like to actually be powerless and be the one controlled by fear.

Thank you for bringing this up. Whenever folks apply the "rule the world with fear" thing to Rufus post-Meteor, I can't help but think they've forgotten about this period of captivity or what its narrative purpose was. Rufus meets the kind of person he thought he was and is disgusted by him.

Which is absolutely not to say that he doesn't still want to be on top, nor that he couldn't bring himself into conflict with Cloud and co. again just by virtue/vice of genuinely believing that what's best for everyone is listening to him. He is motivated by compassion, though, and wants to build a safe, happy world.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
That line never really stuck with me, tbh. It was always his condescending sick burns that stick with me.

"What a crew."
"Is that all you can do...? Give one word answers and apologize for everything?"
"It's that kind of dullness that makes you a second-rate scientist."
The aforementioned blatant lies to Cloud and Kadaj
"A good son would've known."
 
Last edited:

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Okay, well there is ANOTHER reason I love that line, pertaining to a certain someone I probably talk about too much.
Capture11.JPG
but you're right, Rufus' sass is off the charts. I know this was a translation thing, but I also love it when he calls the "Gya ha ha" a "horse laugh," on top of all the ones you mentioned. I can't wait to see this boy in Remake.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
I really need to read that Turk novel, people always seem to draw interesting points from it. That quote with Elena was really nice, too.

This might be slightly off-topic, but all this talk about Rufus and his best lines actually reminded me of another line he has later in the game… except that it doesn’t seem to exist in Japanese? This one:

“People are ignorant. They'll feel better as long as someone is punished.”

Does anyone know anything about this or can double check somewhere? From what I can see from a few scripts online, he actually just says the “You’re going to be executed for causing this situation” bit in Japanese (お前立ちはこの事態を引き起こしたものとして処刑される). I always wondered about it. But I also don't really know Japanese and can't really check for myself, sooo…
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
He lies to Cloud about finding nothing in the North and has lied to Kadaj that Cloud had JENOVA's head.

That's not a small thing that doesn't matter. It endangers Cloud and everyone he cares about. And then the call to Cloud is 'hey, I've got work for you' instead of any warning about the above. There is no valid reason to do this.

However, they are giving it away for free, and given that recon is their specialty, the Turks, second only to Rufus in authority, would definitely catch on if significant amounts were being skimmed off the supply chain and sold on the streets. Based on private conversations, I think it's clear that the top echelon of Shinra does not want to cause any more public health issues even though they still desire dominance. It was Elena's idea, for the sake of her new friends, to do this, so I think she especially would be angry.

They say they're giving it away for free, but do they ever get around to it? (Maybe they do, I dunno)

There's no way to make this not abusive. Let's say the WRO carefully controls who gets doses, and the supply chain is watertight (very unlikely)
. Patients will want bigger doses, leading to robberies and violence, and people that will do favours to get bigger doses. Even if they're completely honest about their intentions, you have a public health emergency anyway. And if anyone at all is corrupt along that chain, it just gets worse and worse. If they don't control who gets what, then we have overdoses (which are possible, because Elena warns against it.) and everything that entails.

There needs to be consequences for stealing... but the fact that they don't investigate enough before dealing out the punishment beatings is very concerning. It doesn't fill me with confidence as to their intentions. They could've reported it to the WRO if they wanted to, but skipped straight to torture.

And then there's this: (Case of Shinra, page 9)

Reno, with the help of some volunteers, began to construct the monument. People were happy to help thinking it was some kind of symbol being built at the centre of the plaza. Amongst them, there were also those who protested, knowing Shinra’s true intentions but such problems were resolved using as Reno liked to call it, “the Turks’ way of doing things”.

This is just a monument, with the sinister purpose of having Shinra lay claim to Edge. People that figure that out are ominously silenced by the Turks.

The Turks silence people that speak out against Shinra. That's not a good sign. They don't have to, the monument is not important at all, it's just Rufus saying 'this place belongs to me'. It's not a necessary evil, it's just that they don't want people speaking out against them. I feel like someone genuinely trying to redeem themselves would not care what people thought of him as long as the world was recovering, but Rufus wants credit, he wants the people of Edge to know he owns it.

I think Rufus is written deliberately ambiguously, where you're not supposed to know his true intentions. He does all these things that straddle the line and you're not really sure where he stands, whether the 'angling for power' motivation or the 'redeem myself' motivation is on top, and you're not supposed to. Yes, he studies the effects of geostigma...but he has geostigma. Is this to benefit the world, or to cure himself? Either, or both, is perfectly plausible.

But anyway, all this is off topic. It appears I was wrong about them selling fake medicine, but what they are doing is almost equally scary.
 
I'm Rufus and I don't really care that I endanger Cloud. Cloud is nothing to me, just as I am nothing to Cloud. What I care about is that no remnant of Sephiroth (or any Hojo wannabe, like Dr Kilmister) ever gets their hands on any Jenova cells ever again. I'm pretty confident that my priorities are the right ones as far as the world is concerned. I reckon that if anyone can hold their own against the entities that ass-whipped my two best Turks, Cloud can. That probably makes me a morally bad person, but again, I don't care. I've been called worse.

Oh yeah - and the last time I saw Cloud, he was handing the Black Materia to Sephiroth. Do you seriosuly think I'm going to share everything I know with this loose cannon before I'm sure that I can trust him? Before I understand what motivates him? Before I make certain that he's in his right mind? Do I look crazy to you?

They do indeed give the medicine away for free. As with everything Rufus does, this could be genuine generosity on his part, or he could just be rebuilding his brand. Or both. Genuine ambition doesn't automatically exclude sincerely generous gestures.

I'm unclear on your argument about the medicine. Are you saying that because the current breakdown in law and order makes it impossible to enforce health and safety regulations in a civilised manner, they shouldn't produce the medicine at all?

"The Turks's way of doing things" does not automatically mean that Reno and Rude went around murdering everybody who expressed their dislike of Shinra helping to construct the monument. They don't whip out their guns and start shooting every time someone looks at them sideways. A little bit of intimidation is all that's needed. And the novellas make it pretty clear that Rufus has explicitly ordered them not to do this (although he sometimes yields to their pleadings).

I never argued that Rufus doesn't want to recover his place in the sun. Of course he does. Like Ryvius said, Rufus is something of a Platonist when it comes to politics: he believes some people are born to be rulers and some people are born to be ruled. He is one of the former. He hasn't gone into sackcloth and ashes mode yet, and to be honest I don't really see what he has to apologise for; he's just jockeying for position like everyone else. He's no angel, but there's plenty out there scrabbling for power who are way worse than he (e.g. Mutten Kylegate, as previously cited). If you don't want to get your hands dirty, don't go in the sandbox.

Like I said before, nobody seems to have a problem with Reeve running the world, and nobody seems to have a problem with Reeve creating his own army and recruiting children to fight in it in order to enforce his particular brand of the rule of law. I mean, I guess this is a fantasy world, so I guess we can imagine Reeve somehow manages to run the WRO without ever overstepping the boundaries of the morally permissible, but all I can say is, in the real world it just doesn't work that way.
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
On the topic of people needing bigger doses of the medicine until a cure is found, and that leading to robberies and violence -- maybe? But most people we see or read/hear about with Geostigma would be doing particularly well to lift, then effectively use anything less than a gun; and would probably be neutralized with a deep breath followed by blowing on them.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I wouldn't even say Rufus' compassion comes out of nowhere in Case of Shinra if you take BC into account. Rufus starts of BC being the financial backer of AVALANCE, the Turks' main antagonists. He also is pretty much responsible for the Turks old leader Veld being fired and hunted down by Shin-Ra. Only he gets found out by the Turks and President Shin-Ra has the Turks hold him in custody in Junon for a while. And at this point in time, the Turks are... pretty pissed at him for getting their leader fired...

Five years later, the Turks and Rufus have a lot more mutual respect for each other. To the point that Rufus is actually okay with the Turks holding him hostage against the President when the Turks are trying to help out their former boss again. And when he does "escape" from being held hostage by them, he uses the political pull he does have in Shinra to fake a lot of their deaths and keep Tseng, Rude and Reno from being executed. This is why the Turks are so loyal to Rufus because they know he didn't have to step in. In fact, they know he knew what was going on and could have sold them out to Shinra (which probably would have helped out his relationship with his dad long term). But instead Rufus decided to intervene when he didn't have to. So the Turns now owe Rufus a lot.

And that's.... pretty typical of Rufus. On the one hand, you can make the case that he just did that to ensure the Turks would always be loyal to him and no one else. On the other hand, he could have just as easily done nothing or acted against them. Which probably would have helped out his relationship with the other Shin-Ra executives. Instead he sets things up so that most of the Turks can actually get out of Shin-Ra with Shin-Ra none the wiser and the Turks that are still with Shin-Ra can't get executed for treason.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Okay, so...we're in agreement?

Rufus could be trying to 'rebuild Shinra', or he could be trying to redeem himself, or both. But it's not unreasonable to distrust his motives, in or out of universe, and he's not being treated unfairly or demonised by not being automatically trusted or liked, in or out of universe, or in not believing that he's 100pc above board or honest.

"The Turks's way of doing things" does not automatically mean that Reno and Rude went around murdering everybody who expressed their dislike of Shinra helping to construct the monument.

I said 'silenced', as in, 'prevented from speaking out.' We don't know what they did to achieve that, but preventing people you don't like from speaking out is not a good sign of sincere motives.
 
Depends who you are. If I were Cloud, I wouldn't trust Rufus, but then, if I were Rufus, I wouldn't trust Cloud.

I think the way he's regarded in-universe is entirely realistic and believable, since people's feelings towards him run the full gamut from respect to contempt, from admiration to hatred. He has no expectation of being either liked or trusted as far as I can tell from the novellas. He's not motivated by a desire for popularity.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
So what are we arguing about exactly? You seem to think I'm being somehow unfair by mistrusting his motives and actions, but like, that suspicion is extremely well founded, in and out of universe, because a lot of the things he does are very shady and/or deceptive. Could he have good intentions? Sure. Could he be scheming to reclaim his throne? Sure. Is it unjustified to be suspicious or doubt his motives? No.
 
Last edited:

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
That's not a small thing that doesn't matter. It endangers Cloud and everyone he cares about. And then the call to Cloud is 'hey, I've got work for you' instead of any warning about the above. There is no valid reason to do this.

There is a reason to do this. He had the intention to study it. If Cloud knew he wanted to study it, based on what he knows about the Shinra company, he would not only have refused to work with him but there is a good chance he would have tried to take it from him and possibly destroy it. I love Cloud as much as anyone else, but if I were Rufus I would not trust him at all, especially given what Rufus knows about Cloud. Likewise for Cloud trusting Rufus. I actually kind of love their antagonism, more than that between Cloud and Sephiroth, and would love to see it fleshed out in the remake.

The Turks silence people that speak out against Shinra. That's not a good sign. They don't have to, the monument is not important at all, it's just Rufus saying 'this place belongs to me'. It's not a necessary evil, it's just that they don't want people speaking out against them. I feel like someone genuinely trying to redeem themselves would not care what people thought of him as long as the world was recovering, but Rufus wants credit, he wants the people of Edge to know he owns it.

He is still prideful, yes. Also, "the Turks way of doing things" does not necessarily indicate violence. A major part of who they are involves intelligence and the manipulation of the channels therein.

Yes, he studies the effects of geostigma...but he has geostigma. Is this to benefit the world, or to cure himself?

He was interested in a cure before he caught the disease. There are numerous times post-meteor where he does things that have no benefit to him, such as his attempt to reassure the patients in the cave (after which he muses "why did I say that?"), helping them not drown, and looking out for Evan's well-being even though he put a knife to his throat.

I wouldn't even say Rufus' compassion comes out of nowhere in Case of Shinra if you take BC into account. Rufus starts of BC being the financial backer of AVALANCE, the Turks' main antagonists. He also is pretty much responsible for the Turks old leader Veld being fired and hunted down by Shin-Ra. Only he gets found out by the Turks and President Shin-Ra has the Turks hold him in custody in Junon for a while. And at this point in time, the Turks are... pretty pissed at him for getting their leader fired...

I disagree with this assessment. I don't believe at any point in BC that Rufus ever acted with compassionate intentions. He flatly admits to the Turks that he only saved them for his own benefit. This could be a wry attempt at humor, but I always read it as blunt honesty. At this point, I believe that he respected them but did not view them as family. Later on, I believe that they grow to truly see each other as family, and that Rufus grows to truly appreciate their loyalty. I see this in the context of the compilation as an example of his character development.

This might be slightly off-topic, but all this talk about Rufus and his best lines actually reminded me of another line he has later in the game… except that it doesn’t seem to exist in Japanese? This one:

Does anyone know anything about this or can double check somewhere? From what I can see from a few scripts online, he actually just says the “You’re going to be executed for causing this situation” bit in Japanese (お前立ちはこの事態を引き起こしたものとして処刑される). I always wondered about it. But I also don't really know Japanese and can't really check for myself, sooo…

Some people on Qhimm retranslated the game (it’s called “Beacause”). I haven’t watched/played the whole thing yet, but his introduction wasn’t changed much. The “bleed or cry” anecdote was changed to “It is said that he has neither blood nor tears.” The biggest change to his intro involved Barret saying “The body ain’t even cold yet!” instead of “You’re just president cause your old man died,” to which Rufus still replies, “That’s right.” I am now curious as to how they translated the line you mentioned. “People are ignorant. They'll feel better as long as someone is punished" was ironically one of his best lines in the game, imho..

His speech post meteor is far more formal than in the OG translation. I don’t know a thing about the Japanese script for the OG, but in AC, he uses "watashi," for example, which is a very polite pronoun for a male character. I don't trust the OG's translation on much of anything - it was done by a single person (poor guy). After seeing the way Rufus speaks in other materials, I can't imagine him saying things like "Did you get 'em?"
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
At the very least, one can't argue with the positive results of his actions: giving away medicine to folks rather than hoarding or selling it, hunting down Jenova, and funding the WRO.

Certainly that first one could benefit his brand while the second is necessary for his own survival. The third, though, he did anonymously -- which I suppose could potentially still be part of some self-serving long game, but proved yet again to be nothing but fortuitous for the world at large.

One also has to acknowledge that he was moved to concern for others during his weeks of captivity post-Meteorfall (which surprised even him) and motivated in large part by compassion to rectify his father's mistakes as he watched them suffering in the days thereafter. These things are explicit.

Remember that several things he has said or thought that reflected well on him were private to only himself, Tseng, or even Kadaj. None of whom he needed to impress or mislead. :monster:
 
Top Bottom