Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[jazzflower92]

To justify retconning characters out of existence, I think you need a better reason than 'I don't personally like them'.

I don't find Genesis and Angeal two dimensional. And the player Turks in BC don't even have names, but you love em.

Mako, I never played KH, I don't know who Xemnas is.

I think the perfect solution to Angeal and Genesis is to make it so that both experiments died young as children, in contrast with Sephiroth which was successful in being brought to adulthood.

 

[Rydeen]

To justify retconning characters out of existence, I think you need a better reason than 'I don't personally like them'.

I don't find Genesis and Angeal two dimensional. And the player Turks in BC don't even have names, but you love em.

Mako, I never played KH, I don't know who Xemnas is.

For me, it's that the actions and lines of Genesis and Angeal don't make any sense, and not in the flawed/human kind of way. It's almost like their lines are disembodied from the rest of the script, and the things they say are cryptic to the point of being unintelligible. In addition to being cryptic, they are also campy and preachy. Like them or not, the writing in that game was god awful and it almost seemed like it actively avoided establishing any context for its characters.

The reason I personally prefer BC (and its characters) over CC is because:

CC is a pseudo-philosophical hot mess pretending to be something more profound.​

BC doesn't really try to be more than what it is. It's entertaining.​

 

[Pizzachu]

To be honest, the game could have indirect ways of fleshing out Angeal and Genesis. They don't have to be front and center of everything, but there could be little hints dropped here and there about them. The Remake has potential in adding more to characters that can benefit from it. Personally, I wouldn't mind Genesis looking different to drop all the Gackt references if possible.

I like both characters and would like to see more of them. I realize that not everyone feels the same, but this is what I would want most out of the Remake.<3

 

[Rydeen]

To be honest, the game could have indirect ways of fleshing out Angeal and Genesis. They don't have to be front and center of everything, but there could be little hints dropped here and there about them. The Remake has potential in adding more to characters that can benefit from it. Personally, I wouldn't mind Genesis looking different to drop all the Gackt references if possible.

I like both characters and would like to see more of them. I realize that not everyone feels the same, but this is what I would want most out of the Remake.<3

If they could successfully salvage/bolster them, I would be really happy with that. It may make CC more enjoyable for me. I really wanted to like it, and I don't like mentally discarding canon characters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Genesis and Angeal are not going to be in the remake.

I really, really, really, wish that would not be the first takeaway from the Compilation's plot elements being confirmed for the FFVII Remake by people

Quite simply, Genesis and Angeal are dead. They have no functional presence or purpose in VII's plot. These characters are solely connected to Zack's development and story in Crisis Core. Their influence is present, memorable and important to the universe of FFVII but they are not present or relevant to VII's own plot at all. Zack had a unique story and these characters existed in that story. I don't think anything personal or based on their character will present themselves in the Remake.

It's like expecting Fuhito or Lazard to somehow get more characterization or presence in the Remake. That's not happening. However, their influence will be seen. SOLDIER is now be under the control of Heidegger's Public Security division. We see Sector 6 is still destroyed and under repair, and the previous AVALANCHE's role in raising hell and trying to kill Shinra is acknowledged.

Things from the Compilation will solely be framed and acknowledged in reference to VII. But not in reverse.

 

[Tetsujin]

We see Sector 6 is still destroyed and under repair

Destroyed? Eh?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Destroyed? Eh?

Not outright destroyed, but the reason Sector 6 was badly damaged and under construction during VII, was due to AVALANCHE. Specifically, Fuhito summoning Zirconaide and fighting the Turks there.

 

[Tetsujin]

Not outright destroyed, but the reason Sector 6 was badly damaged and under construction during VII, was due to AVALANCHE. Specifically, Fuhito summoning Zirconaide and fighting the Turks there.

That's just fanon though isn't it. That doesn't happen in the actual game. Zirconiade is fought in some weird ass final dungeon construct above Midgar. BC never references any damage that was done to the city as a result of Zirconiade iirc.

 

[ForceStealer]

Ah, Before Crisis. Endless source of "huh?"s

Quite simply, Genesis and Angeal are dead. They have no functional presence or purpose in VII's plot. These characters are solely connected to Zack's development and story in Crisis Core. Their influence is present, memorable and important to the universe of FFVII but they are not present or relevant to VII's own plot at all. Zack had a unique story and these characters existed in that story. I don't think anything personal or based on their character will present themselves in the Remake.

But this, exactly. I've been saying from the beginning when you had people falling on their fainting couches about how Genesis was gonna muck up the remake OR that the Compilation was going to be wiped from the record.
No, both of those things can very likely be wrong. He can both be completely absent, AND still be "canon," because THE ENTIRE POINT was that he was absent for events of the original game.

 

[oty]

I mean, he's probably canon, but he's the long, forgotten kind of canon. It's like that technical detail, that, well, is technically right buuut nobody really brings up, or is just kind of referenced in the side

 

[Pizzachu]

Right, Angeal is dead and Genesis is away from the main events of the game. I don't want anything overt, but I wouldn't mind finding, like what Lic said, an old SOLDIER recruitment poster or something like that. ^^

But if there ever is a Remake of Crisis Core (probably won't happen, but it's still fun to imagine), I hope Genesis and Angeal have more characterization added to them. I like them, but like others said, they are fairly flat characters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's just fanon though isn't it. That doesn't happen in the actual game. Zirconiade is fought in some weird ass final dungeon construct above Midgar. BC never references any damage that was done to the city as a result of Zirconiade iirc.

In chapter 22, Fuhito and AVALANCHE were in the Sector 6 slums and Wall Market. But they then escaped and actually you're right.... It's indeterminate where they actually ended up in Midgar for the final battle.

They started in Sector 6's slums and the area but. For whatever reason BC isn't exact on where the chase ends. Oh well

 

[Jairus]

But how canon is BC, anyway? Its release was extremely limited, on a very limited and no longer available platform, and never went outside Japan. I don't know that they would include much from a title most people playing the game likely have no idea ever even existed, let alone played.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Limited release means nothing. If the writers are referencing it and using it, it's canon.

Now, BC does contradict several subsequent Compilation titles that depict narrative points in BC differently. So those plot elements should be ignored.

But Before Crisis exists and even though it's Japan exclusive, it's relevant. Hell, that's what explained how Red XIII doggy-styled his puppies in the ending of FFVII.

 

[Jairus]

Well, they could always change that explanation of Red's cubs with the remake and ignore BC's version (as it didn't exist when FFVII first came out), since as you said they ignored or should ignore other parts of it. So it seems like it's more they're using parts of the Comp and reworking what they're using rather than including all of it wholesale unaltered.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're not going to though. It's done. They wrote it. They're using it.

This isn't DC or Warner Bros rebooting and redoing everything that happened every X amount of years because they're hoping to re-do things over and over again. These are the same people who wrote these stories coming back and remaking the story set in the same established universe. They're not interested in erasing their work. They did it. They'll probably hint or reference Before Crisis's Dinne character. But they're not gonna change the fundamental plot that was outlined there.

 

[Jairus]

See, this is the tone I'm talking about. Like you don't allow that you could be wrong about anything. The finality in the way you write stuff like that just rubs me the wrong way, that's what I meant before about coming across as a know-it-all. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's how it feels. When you write that way, it makes it seem like anyone who questions what you say is foolish and ignorant. I know that's not how you're trying to make anyone feel, but that tone of absolute knowing does that by its very nature. You can't say you know for sure what only the SE really knows.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BC has been referenced a lot over the years in other stuff. Cissnei in CC originated in BC. Veld explicitly appears in Episode:Shin-Ra of "On the Way to A Smile," as do at least a few of the unnamed BC Turks. BC's events were also included in the Compilation summary from "Advent Children Complete" (in Japan and elsewhere in the world).

For that matter, it still stands to reason more people are familiar with BC than they are with "The Kids Are Alright," and

Spoiler

we already know from leaks that's going to get some acknowledgement in the remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, this is the tone I'm talking about. Like you don't allow that you could be wrong about anything.

I'm sorry, I speak with confidence. The reason I type in the manner where I don't believe I could be wrong.. Is simply because don't believe I am. I mean. That's it.

And it's nothing against you. So I don't see why you'd take it personally. Believe me, it's not an insult to you at all. However, the reason why I'm so certain is for the reasons I illustrated.

The finality in the way you write stuff like that just rubs me the wrong way, that's what I meant before about coming across as a know-it-all. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that's how it feels. When you write that way, it makes it seem like anyone who questions what you say is foolish and ignorant. I know that's not how you're trying to make anyone feel, but that tone of absolute knowing does that by its very nature. You can't say you know for sure what only the SE really knows.

Trust me, if you notice, there are times I am uncertain. But when I'm certain, I tend to lean into it.

It has nothing to do with me insulting your or anything. However, if I'm confident, I'm confident. I'm sorry you're taking it that way, but I assure you it's not anything insulting at all.

 

[Jairus]

I understand, but that very confidence comes off as a bit arrogant, that's all. Not saying you are, that's just how it feels, and I'm not sure that's how you want to be seen. So maybe try backing off a little and not lean into it so much even when you don't think you're wrong. Because nobody knows everything. And that means the possibility to be wrong always exists.

And SE may include unexpected things in the remake specifically to throw off people like you and other so-called FF7 experts who seem to think they know how the whole thing is going to go. Might want to keep that in mind.

 

[jazzflower92]

With Genesis and Angeal, I think they should just revamp their characters from the way up.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, in my opinion, I don't think they'll do that because they've been very clear and emphatic that they want to continue to use what they've written already.

I don't doubt they'll throw in new stuff, of course. But, they aren't gonna suddenly decide, "Before Crisis? Nah, fuhgettaboutit!"

I wouldn't say I'm an expert. But, I was right about the Compilation inclusion. I didn't believe they were gonna ignore or negate their own writing. I predicted that it was some sort of misunderstanding and was right. But no, I'm certainly no expert. And I can't predict the future.

But with the knowledge of what's been done, stated, and the experience of seeing how these writers worked before, I feel certain in saying they're not gonna erase Before Crisis. They'll continue to acknowledge it like they always do.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, in my opinion, I don't think they'll do that because they've been very clear and emphatic that they want to continue to use what they've written already.

I don't doubt they'll throw in new stuff, of course. But, they aren't gonna suddenly decide, "Before Crisis? Nah, fuhgettaboutit!"

I wouldn't say I'm an expert. But, I was right about the Compilation inclusion. I didn't believe they were gonna ignore or negate their own writing. I predicted that it was some sort of misunderstanding and was right. But no, I'm certainly no expert. And I can't predict the future.

But with the knowledge of what's been done, stated, and the experience of seeing how these writers worked before, I feel certain in saying they're not gonna erase Before Crisis. They'll continue to acknowledge it like they always do.

I do think this come off as a contradiction to earlier interviews where they said it wouldn't include Compilation elements and would be it's own thing.

 

[Jairus]

Fair enough. Since you said some of BC contradicts other stuff, though, it may only be partially used, like much of the rest of the Compilation material. Use what works and is salvageable and ignore what isn't and what contradicts. I guess I just wonder why they would put so much emphasis on BC, something that only a small proportion of the playerbase has even heard of, let alone seen or played.

 

[Theozilla]

The earlier French Nomura interview that people referenced so much was very misunderstood. The original context of the question was in reference to a KH Remix style Compilation port release. Nomura was talking about coherency in that it wouldn’t be beholden to the Compilation (in the same way the Compilation isn’t even beholden to itself or the OG), not that Compilation wasn’t canon anymore and/or the Remake wouldn’t build upon it.