Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[Makoeyes987]

Well of course, they simply can't use everything. Not everything in the Compilation is relevant, capable or warranted in the actual FFVII story.

They'll simply use what's relevant and actually fitting for the narrative and go from there.

And the simple reason the writers continue to use Before Crisis, is because it's their work. They wrote it. It's story serves as foundation for the lore and history of FFVII's world, and they see no reason not to use it. Yes, no one outside of Japan has played it or seen it's story beyond the fan-translations posted online and youtube.

However, those in Japan from 2004 to 2018 did play it. And given the fact that this is their story, and their writing, human nature dictates they would hold some level of attachment and pride in their work. Which they've stated they do carry. So, that's just the reality of it. They like it, they're proud of it, and it's the lore of FFVII.

 

[Tetsujin]

I just imagine Square digging their heels in and yelling "Dirge of Cerberus was COOL, dangit!"

and I just wanna gently touch them by the shoulders and be like

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Still better than the other Compilation games. =P

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Well, despite being a rather hard game to get your hands on now (if not impossible outside that PC download from a while ago), the overall existence of BC isn't THAT obscured, though. This especially in Japan where a plethora of reading material can be taken in to observe it as part of the canon of FFVII. In any case, I've never seen any problem (if anything, being an advocate for) in integrating material from the Compilation to improve the storytelling in the Remake. It would seem very...counteractive to what they've spent years developing for the overall series to do that.

 

[cold_spirit]

I just imagine Square digging their heels in and yelling "Dirge of Cerberus was COOL, dangit!"

Not a fan, eh? That's fine, that just means there'll be more Dirge for the rest of us.

Spoiler: Opinion

Dirge isn't even my favorite Compilation title. However, compared to CC's gameplay, its combat is more varied and the level design is more interesting. Dirge also offers the Compilation's best lore addition through Omega Weapon and its possible connection to Jenova.

 

[Makoeyes987]

... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

Dirge of Cerberus is what would happen if a mad scientist took Devil May Cry, drained all of its vital fluids, absorbed its discorporated soul and grafted a bare bones 3rd person shooter mechanic onto its corpse like some Frankenstein-weapon-monster.

Then commanded the undead abomination to dance for a children's party.

Crisis Core had far more in-depth action RPG gameplay with its materia fusion system, accessories, armor, items and hundreds of combinations of various types of materia. Not to mention dozens of unique spells, commands and summons. And of course there's the Digital Mind Wave. A gameplay element that was integrated into the story's end so well, it was the most creative and emotional fusion of gameplay mechanics and story I've ever seen. It did more as a PSP game than Dirge of Cerberus ever tried to do.. As a PS2 game.

Dirge of Cerberus which gave us Fire, Lightning and Blizzard materia... That's it. Vincent only had 4 guns. For customization, you just simply Lego pieced 5 parts together for the gun you wanted. Vincent only had 3 accessories in the entire game. You either used exp points to level up or get gil magically to buy more parts and items from Jukeboxes, or the end of each chapter on a menu scree . These were the most phoned in game mechanics I've ever seen in a Square-Enix spin off title.

Vincent had only one limit break, which was triggered by an item. One of the most iconic aspects of his play style and character... Was completely and inexplicably shelved/ignored. Except in the final battle of the game for some stupid fucking reason. Then you could use Chaos to face roll the boss because the game wasn't easy enough. Unless you played hard mode.

And at least Crisis Core tried to include as many of the unique and flavorful enemies of the OG it could.

Aside from Deepground soldiers and their numerous permutations, Dirge of Cerberus gave us just 8 monsters. Guard Hounds, Crimson Hounds, Bizarre Bugs, Epilonis, Sahagins, Dual Horns, Gargoyles and Cactuars... Who only existed to be shot. Because if Cactuars fought back, they'd destroy you through sheer speed since you're so sluggish you'd think Vincent just woke up from his coffin sleep of 30 years.

The creators phoned this game in. Dirge didn't even have an optional superboss. At least Crisis Core felt like a labor of love trying to capture some spirit of the OG.

And don't get me wrong, I don't hate Dirge of Cerberus. I enjoyed some of it unironically. I love Deepground. I love the Tsviets. I love Vincent's overdramatic theatrics in cutscenes as he ends his boss fights. The storyline cgi cutscenes were awesome as hell along with the soundtrack. I even accepted and was amused by the final villain reveal.

...But the game is mediocre as hell. I've never been more painfully aware of the discordance between storyline cutscenes and gameplay until playing that game.

So I can't understand how anyone can say Dirge of Cerberus as a game was better than Crisis Core. When CC literally told a longer, fleshed out story. Created a deeper, more enriching game with mechanics carrying depth and challenge. And actually attempted to make the game hold some semblance of Final Fantasy. Dirge felt so rushed and slapped together on the fly in terms of its gameplay that it boggled my mind, even today.

 

[Odysseus]

You guys better be careful, lest you awaken Shademp's rage.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I have a soft spot in my heart for Dirge of Cerberus and was even playing it some the other day on my PS2. It was nostalgic and I enjoyed it's accomplishments. It's fun.

However, Crisis Core is my UIL champion.

....While Dirge of Cerberus won a "Most Black Eyeliner Applied in 30 Seconds" and "Tightest Black Skinny Jeans" award from Hot Topic back in 2006.

So yeah...

 

[Odysseus]

Almost everything about Crisis Core's story I'm either actively annoyed by or apathetic to. Dirge might have less game play variety, and it's story may be fucking nonsense, but at least it makes me laugh. Crisis Core is a gray, miserable slog in comparison. I'm not about to say dirge actually has more interesting gameplay, because it doesn't, but at least its over relatively quickly and there's decent variety in the levels. Crisis Core is just "run down empty hallway, fight enemies, run down hall way, repeat." Even if the combat is more fleshed out, that doesn't make it less tedious.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I honestly think that what they lacked was good writers.
BC was a farrago of nonsense, but it never really pretended to be anything else, and it gave us a bunch of characters whose existence in the world of FFVII made sense.
Even Avalanche Mark I makes sense, though teenage Rufus being its founder and funder doesn't, really.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Crisis Core is a gray, miserable slog in comparison.

This is the brightest stage of the game. This is also during daytime.

...but at least its over relatively quickly and there's decent variety in the levels. Crisis Core is just "run down empty hallway, fight enemies, run down hall way, repeat." Even if the combat is more fleshed out, that doesn't make it less tedious.

Dirge of Cerberus' locations are Kalm, Edge, Shinra Manor, WRO headquarters, Sector 7 Train Graveyard, the Shinra Building and Deepground.

Crisis Core's locations are the Shinra Building, Sector 8, Sector 5, Sector 6 slums, Wutai's Fort Tamblin, Banora, Modeoheim, Junon, Costa del Sol, Nibelheim, Mt Nibel, Gongaga, Shinra Manor, the Chocobo Farm, and the Great Northern Crater... In color.

Now yes it did reuse a lot of assets for missions that were simplistic maps but Crisis Core was a PSP game with limited storage space. They did the best they could. At least they had color.

You don't wanna embrace your dreams...? Don't give up!

This is the true power of SOLDIER!

 

[Wol]

Dirge was the epithome of cheesiness, the writing quality... atrocious.

It could have been good, it was nice to see a bit of VIIs world on the PS2.

 

[Odysseus]

Yes, so much color in crisis core.

This is the brightest stage of the game.

???

 

[Makoeyes987]

To be fair, cheese can be delicious.



Remember when Vincent fought a bondage sex slave?



Or remember that time Cloud was viciously harassed by a psycho cougar?

Good times

@Odysseus I forgot when you went outside the WRO. Fair enough. You found the one chapter the sun was free to shine in the game.

And yes Nibelheim was dark. But even that was still colorful comparatively speaking.

 

[Odysseus]

Dirge definitely isn't free from the compilation's tendency towards gray, but I feel like you aren't giving it enough credit. The only super gray stages are the wasteland and edge. One of my actual non-ironic points of praise for Dirge is its art direction, specifically that its more colorful than Advent Children and Crisis Core. It isn't a very bright game, mind you, but it isn't so washed out. The deepground portion in particular I always really liked:

Spoiler: pictures

its the only compilation entry that really feels like it has a sense of style, the rest is just kind of bland looking.

 

[cold_spirit]

... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

In my recent Crisis Core playthrough on hard mode my sole strategy consisted of running behind the enemy/boss and spamming the basic attack, consequently stun locking them with critical hits. If the enemy/boss didn't have a back then you just do the same to their face. Dodge whenever you feel threatened. Have cure, barrier, and mbarrier. Occasionally the "action" is interrupted by the DMW wherein you have to watch an unskippable animation multiple times a sitting. And don't get me started on the monotonous 300 extra missions and flat level design.

In my recent Dirge of Cerberus playthrough on hard mode I found genuine surprises, especially when navigating Deepground. At least aiming requires a bit of effort. At least the shootouts incorporate the level design. At least Dirge is weird. Furthermore, Dirge was a RPG-shooter before Destiny and The Division where even a thought. You could customize a character in the online mode! It was ahead of its time in a way.

 

[Roger]

To justify retconning characters out of existence, I think you need a better reason than 'I don't personally like them'.

I don't find Genesis and Angeal two dimensional. And the player Turks in BC don't even have names, but you love em.

Mako, I never played KH, I don't know who Xemnas is.

Crisis Core and the Compilation have merit, the original game also has merit. This should be a remake of the original game. Hojo's death should be his death, Genesis should not be interjected in the story of Sephiroth's fall. These things served the story of the Compilation, the Remake should not let their canon hamper it's ability to tell the story it is suppose to tell.

 

[oty]

In all honesty, I think both set the bar really, really low for the series. I still think that CC is better than Dirge ( hell, I think almost everything is....) but CC isnt really a bright bulb. If anything, it's this horribly designed, barely functioning one, that keeps frickin stop you to yell MODULATING PHASE. And thats without talking about the most loved character in the Compilation.

I think it's also hard to compare a PSP to a PS2 game, and not really about console power. More like their different directions. It doesnt justificative CC's horrible gameplay and structure, but it does provide context.

And I agree with Odysseus. Dirge has his own sense of style. Not that it was executed well, but at least I can try talk about it, because there is something to talk about.

 

[Wol]

Btw Crisis Core's OST is just ?

the western vibe and new arrangements were top-tier.

SQ never goes wrong in the music department

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... How the heck is geriatric Vincent Valentine (unless it's cutscene magic) better gameplay than CC...?!

Dirge of Cerberus is what would happen if a mad scientist took Devil May Cry, drained all of its vital fluids, absorbed its discorporated soul and grafted a bare bones 3rd person shooter mechanic onto its corpse like some Frankenstein-weapon-monster.

Then commanded the undead abomination to dance for a children's party.

Crisis Core had far more in-depth action RPG gameplay with its materia fusion system, accessories, armor, items and hundreds of combinations of various types of materia. Not to mention dozens of unique spells, commands and summons. And of course there's the Digital Mind Wave. A gameplay element that was integrated into the story's end so well, it was the most creative and emotional fusion of gameplay mechanics and story I've ever seen. It did more as a PSP game than Dirge of Cerberus ever tried to do.. As a PS2 game.

Dirge of Cerberus which gave us Fire, Lightning and Blizzard materia... That's it. Vincent only had 4 guns. For customization, you just simply Lego pieced 5 parts together for the gun you wanted. Vincent only had 3 accessories in the entire game. You either used exp points to level up or get gil magically to buy more parts and items from Jukeboxes, or the end of each chapter on a menu scree . These were the most phoned in game mechanics I've ever seen in a Square-Enix spin off title.

Vincent had only one limit break, which was triggered by an item. One of the most iconic aspects of his play style and character... Was completely and inexplicably shelved/ignored. Except in the final battle of the game for some stupid fucking reason. Then you could use Chaos to face roll the boss because the game wasn't easy enough. Unless you played hard mode.

And at least Crisis Core tried to include as many of the unique and flavorful enemies of the OG it could.

Aside from Deepground soldiers and their numerous permutations, Dirge of Cerberus gave us just 8 monsters. Guard Hounds, Crimson Hounds, Bizarre Bugs, Epilonis, Sahagins, Dual Horns, Gargoyles and Cactuars... Who only existed to be shot. Because if Cactuars fought back, they'd destroy you through sheer speed since you're so sluggish you'd think Vincent just woke up from his coffin sleep of 30 years.

The creators phoned this game in. Dirge didn't even have an optional superboss. At least Crisis Core felt like a labor of love trying to capture some spirit of the OG.

And don't get me wrong, I don't hate Dirge of Cerberus. I enjoyed some of it unironically. I love Deepground. I love the Tsviets. I love Vincent's overdramatic theatrics in cutscenes as he ends his boss fights. The storyline cgi cutscenes were awesome as hell along with the soundtrack. I even accepted and was amused by the final villain reveal.

...But the game is mediocre as hell. I've never been more painfully aware of the discordance between storyline cutscenes and gameplay until playing that game.

So I can't understand how anyone can say Dirge of Cerberus as a game was better than Crisis Core. When CC literally told a longer, fleshed out story. Created a deeper, more enriching game with mechanics carrying depth and challenge. And actually attempted to make the game hold some semblance of Final Fantasy. Dirge felt so rushed and slapped together on the fly in terms of its gameplay that it boggled my mind, even today.

That's a lot of extra words to say "You right, Dirge was actually better."

Almost everything about Crisis Core's story I'm either actively annoyed by or apathetic to.

Yeah, this will always be the overriding thing for me. BC's gameplay is a chore to watch, so I doubt it was much more fun to play, but overall the story and characters were fairly interesting to me.

If I have to pick between the game whose gameplay looks painful or whose story is painful, I'll probably give the ribbon to the one with the crappier gameplay that at least seems to consistently reward you.

Which is not to say that Dirge's story is without infuriating moments. Any scene with Lucrecia is guaranteed to make you want to lock yourself in a coffin. But for me the problems in Dirge's story are usually more cringey and secondhand embarrassing than "Why?? Why would you do this?? What God would allow this?? Whyyyyy" -- which is how I feel about almost everything in CC. =P

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Crisis Core and the Compilation have merit, the original game also has merit. This should be a remake of the original game. Hojo's death should be his death, Genesis should not be interjected in the story of Sephiroth's fall. These things served the story of the Compilation, the Remake should not let their canon hamper it's ability to tell the story it is suppose to tell.

I'm not really sure of what expectation is behind the context of "interjection" for Angeal and Genesis' characters somewhere in the full Remake project, but as is with any other plot/character/lore element developed from the Compilation—it has absolute free reign and justification to be included in some form as long as it adds or improves the storytelling/game experience of the Remake. That, as far as I'm concerned, should always be the goal the writers are considering with their materials here. The [most] Compilation materials aren't meant to be such a separate entity or canon from the OG as in practical terms now, their additions have become part of the "essence of the universe" that the OG had set off. I wouldn't agree with some notion of using the Compilation materials in a way where this Remake acts as, like, a Remake for THOSE titles, but I believe in the staff enough, in that aspect, to not dig that hole for themselves.

 

[Roger]

I'm not really sure of what expectation is behind the context of "interjection" for Angeal and Genesis' characters somewhere in the full Remake project, but as is with any other plot/character/lore element developed from the Compilation—it has absolute free reign and justification to be included in some form as long as it adds or improves the storytelling/game experience of the Remake. That, as far as I'm concerned, should always be the goal the writers are considering with their materials here. The [most] Compilation materials aren't meant to be such a separate entity or canon from the OG as in practical terms now, their additions have become part of the "essence of the universe" that the OG had set off. I wouldn't agree with some notion of using the Compilation materials in a way where this Remake acts as, like, a Remake for THOSE titles, but I believe in the staff enough, in that aspect, to not dig that hole for themselves.

Not sure I take your meaning, Genesis appears in events that the FFVII story covers once and only once. Crisis Core's depiction of him being there either is or is not canon. It's a hole they've already dug for themselves as they did before with Before Crisis and Last Order's depiction of events, which they ultimately decided not to adhere too.

 

[Saven]

Someone mentioned this on Reddit, but after seeing the flashback scene during the bombing run when Cloud remembers Nibelheim, it makes soooooo much more sense now for Tifa to dress up like a cowgirl when Sephiroth eventually burns it down.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Not sure I take your meaning, Genesis appears in events that the FFVII story covers once and only once. Crisis Core's depiction of him being there either is or is not canon. It's a hole they've already dug for themselves as they did before with Before Crisis and Last Order's depiction of events, which they ultimately decided not to adhere too.

I'm....not sure I really understand what your point is. Lol Which is not a jab or anything, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with Genesis' ability to have a presence somewhere appropriately placed in the Remake project. To be precise to what I think you're getting at, his character influence to the world and/or Sephiroth's story isn't limited in being included here in some form just because this isn't his source story (CC, though Dirge is his first "appearance") being remade. This is why I mention the likes of what context the expectation is coming from, which mainly resolves on the "how" Compilation materials are integrated. We may be talking about different things, but the above is where I'm mainly coming from.

 

[ForceStealer]

Without getting into whether Dirge or CC was worse, this idea that Dirge is more colorful than Crisis Core is....making my head spin. Crisis Core is the only compilation title that even approached FF7's color palette.

And I don't actually mind ACC's and DC's color palettes. They both effectively fit the mood and atmosphere of those pieces. But...what?