Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
A few tweets of our favorite couple:
I love the black and white contrast against their blue and red eyes,
I love the black and white contrast against their blue and red eyes,
Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)
- Thread starter Tennyo
- Start date
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
@The Twilight Mexican Crystal clear, thank you for the clarification!
I would love to see more of Marle (and honestly all the new Wall Market NPCs too, what great additions) in the subsequent parts. I just want more of Tifa's backstory in general. How does she go from deeply traumatized teenager who arrives near death to a city where she doesn't know a soul to a business owner at age 20 and a pillar of the community in the span of five years?
Since Tifa hadn't really even told Barret about what happened in Nibelheim, I would assume that she's told Marle very little as well. Though Marle's a pretty intuitive lady, so she may have figured a few things out on her own, esp. re: her relationship with Cloud. Tifa might not be able to say how she feels out loud but she wears her emotions on her sleeve.
That's another thing that the Remake helped me realize. I used think that Tifa got short-changed in the OG because every other character got a chance to confront their past and resolve their emotional arcs. Now it's gobsmackingly obvious that Lifestream sequence is as much the emotional climax (I know, I know) of Tifa's arc as it is Cloud's. While she doesn't have the same identity issues, if she's so deeply repressing her memories that even two of the closest people in her life know nothing of her past, she too is living something of a half life. As much as Tifa is the only person who can help Cloud in that moment, he also serves the same function for her. Between Shinra's cover-up, Sephiroth's lies, and Cloud's half-truths, she doesn't know what real or not either. They're two sides of the same coin.
I think my favorite moment in the entire OG is at the end of the Lifestream sequence when the Shinra grunt removes his helmet to reveal Cloud. It's simultaneously subverting our expectations of the Promise while playing it straight. Cloud isn't a "hero" but he still saves her. Finally, all the contradictions are resolved, all the puzzle pieces fall into place -- for Tifa too, not just Cloud. The game starts with The Promise and it ends (at least in terms of their emotional arcs) when we finally learn how it was fulfilled.
That was the first moment for me in the Remake where I was like 'Woah, things are different this time.' (at least re: C/T). Up to that point, Cloud's been pretty stand-offish and kinda dick-ish towards every new person he meets. Enter his landlady who starts off a conversation by making a sweeping assumption about his relationship with Tifa, and not only does he not correct her, he actually listens to her advice. Who is this man??
I wonder where Marle got that impression tho... Are she and Tifa close enough for Tifa to have talked about her past? Marle looks very sharp, so maybe it was when Tifa went to talk to her to get Cloud a room and she just read the whole situation lol? Well, we will never know
I would love to see more of Marle (and honestly all the new Wall Market NPCs too, what great additions) in the subsequent parts. I just want more of Tifa's backstory in general. How does she go from deeply traumatized teenager who arrives near death to a city where she doesn't know a soul to a business owner at age 20 and a pillar of the community in the span of five years?
Since Tifa hadn't really even told Barret about what happened in Nibelheim, I would assume that she's told Marle very little as well. Though Marle's a pretty intuitive lady, so she may have figured a few things out on her own, esp. re: her relationship with Cloud. Tifa might not be able to say how she feels out loud but she wears her emotions on her sleeve.
That's another thing that the Remake helped me realize. I used think that Tifa got short-changed in the OG because every other character got a chance to confront their past and resolve their emotional arcs. Now it's gobsmackingly obvious that Lifestream sequence is as much the emotional climax (I know, I know) of Tifa's arc as it is Cloud's. While she doesn't have the same identity issues, if she's so deeply repressing her memories that even two of the closest people in her life know nothing of her past, she too is living something of a half life. As much as Tifa is the only person who can help Cloud in that moment, he also serves the same function for her. Between Shinra's cover-up, Sephiroth's lies, and Cloud's half-truths, she doesn't know what real or not either. They're two sides of the same coin.
I think my favorite moment in the entire OG is at the end of the Lifestream sequence when the Shinra grunt removes his helmet to reveal Cloud. It's simultaneously subverting our expectations of the Promise while playing it straight. Cloud isn't a "hero" but he still saves her. Finally, all the contradictions are resolved, all the puzzle pieces fall into place -- for Tifa too, not just Cloud. The game starts with The Promise and it ends (at least in terms of their emotional arcs) when we finally learn how it was fulfilled.
Celesta
Pro Adventurer
Too cute ?
My ideal revised remake ending would be a post ACC flash forward featuring expansion of Cloud and Tifa’s family. A CLOTI baby bump at least. May seem rather traditional and I love their unique family as it’s presented but would be icing on cake for me.
I guess that’s what fanfic us for until the game in its entirety is released ?
Regarding Marle, I think she is mature, intuitive, and has likely never seen Tifa express such as interest in a male her age. Especially one from her past.
RhinoKart
Pro Adventurer
General overall impression is that Cloud seems to be way more into Tifa in Remake than he was at this stage of the OG, although the overall problems with no voice acting is someone else might read those text boxes and see it very differently from me.
As to specifics, I think the change to the promise are the most interesting parts to me. In Remake Cloud does still forget the promise at first, it is just Tifa isn't the one to remind him, he remembers later on his own. This solves a bit of a plot hole in the OG for me because Cloud's memory of the promise in the OG is one reason Tifa believes he is the real Cloud and not a clone, but if she was the one who told him about the promise that doesn't really add up. So having Cloud remember it fixes that particular problem.
The other cool thing about the promise in OG vs Remake surrounds Cloud wanting to leave Midgar. In Remake Cloud doesn't want to leave Tifa even before he remembers the promise. Chapter 3 has the exchange of Tifa asking if he thinks he'll stick around for a while, Cloud responds "Maybe. Work for a minute, build up some savings". Once he remembers the promise he makes it extra clear that he isn't going to leave Midgar because he won't leave her while she feels trapped. Compared to the OG where he just tells her he can't fulfill the promise and Tifa has to do some convincing to get him to stay.
As to specifics, I think the change to the promise are the most interesting parts to me. In Remake Cloud does still forget the promise at first, it is just Tifa isn't the one to remind him, he remembers later on his own. This solves a bit of a plot hole in the OG for me because Cloud's memory of the promise in the OG is one reason Tifa believes he is the real Cloud and not a clone, but if she was the one who told him about the promise that doesn't really add up. So having Cloud remember it fixes that particular problem.
The other cool thing about the promise in OG vs Remake surrounds Cloud wanting to leave Midgar. In Remake Cloud doesn't want to leave Tifa even before he remembers the promise. Chapter 3 has the exchange of Tifa asking if he thinks he'll stick around for a while, Cloud responds "Maybe. Work for a minute, build up some savings". Once he remembers the promise he makes it extra clear that he isn't going to leave Midgar because he won't leave her while she feels trapped. Compared to the OG where he just tells her he can't fulfill the promise and Tifa has to do some convincing to get him to stay.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Is this a goddess?
Some cuteness for the day: Cloud and Tifa's motion capture actors recently started working together again and dropped by the Square Enix Artnia cafe to celebrate with some Cosmo Canyons. (Disclaimer: They work together on several other projects too, so we don't know if the mo-cap they're doing is for FF7R-2 or something else. But given that they dropped by the cafe, might be the case that they've started working on Part 2!)
My guess is that they mean that this version of the remake is trying to encapsulate all the ideas and experiences people have had in the compilation. For instance, I don't think they'll actually remake AC in the game, but the storyarc of Cloud overcoming guilt and moving on with Tifa in some way will be there. We also won't play through Crisis core, but I think we will experience the love Zack shared with Aerith and mourn his death.
I think the major change in the remake will be that it ends with our characters at piece, instead of conflicted, at least, that's what I hope. That this entire "what would you do differently" motif ends with the characters accepting what happened because they realize that if they had had the choice, they would not have done it any other way. My perfect ending has Aerith actually at peace, dissolving into the lifestream with Zack, and with Cloud with Tifa, smiling when he thinks of the future, which would hopefully, finally, end Sephiroths memetic legacy.
The similarities between Clouds "promise" and "the promised land" have always seemed meaningful to me, does anyone know if the same linguistic overlap exists in Japanese as well?
Is this a goddess?
Words cannot describe how much I love this.
Marle is the in-game embodiment of all the simmering angst from crazy clotis (I guess that means us) who've been waiting for decades to give Cloud a stern lecture on how to treat Tifa right. Her lectures are almost like a tongue in cheek shout out to the fans who want to kick mopey!Cloud's butt!
....plus she's probably Zangan's sister...shhhh
....plus she's probably Zangan's sister...shhhh
You're right! Never thought of that before.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
It was so nice to see this dynamic so early on. He takes all her 'Life on the Ground Floor' lessons so seriously, even repeating it to himself when she's not around. It really felt like Cloud was planning on making a life there in Sector 7. Even after meeting Aerith, one of the first things he asks Tifa is if her comment about the sewers as another Life Lesson. And after the plate falls, this still seems to be the case. As much Tifa and Barret talking about rebuilding the bar and Cloud agreeing to help is a reference to the Post-Game family dynamic, were it not for Sephiroth, it seems that Cloud was planning on sticking around, even at this point in the game, when his mind is still mixed up.
I absolutely loved all the changes about the Promise scene in the Remake. (@Graymouse, thanks for sharing the video btw!) Everything from Cloud remembering it on his own, to the way he remembers it (which is kind of hilarious to me. It's like random fan on a building-->the Nibelheim water tower also had a fan-->Water tower...Promise-->Tifa!! Poor guy's mind really is 'no thoughts, head empty, only Tifa'.). One of the biggest changes for me was that the flashback itself also reframes what the Promise means.
I always took Baby Tifa pretty literally in the OG, that she wanted him to save her from physical harm. However, based on how crestfallen she looks when Cloud tells her he's leaving, it feels like she's just using the whole 'hero' thing as an excuse to see him again. She doesn't want him to save her so much as she just wants him to be there.
Now Cloud does take her quite literally, but the way he plans on fulfilling the Promise in the Remake is a bit different as well. In the OG, he does so by agreeing to help with the next mission, but in the Remake, the Time Ghosts take care of that. Instead, he's keeping his Promise by simply being present (or being there for her emotionally if you will), which is what Tifa wanted all along. They're such experts at dancing around their feelings for each other, but somehow they always manage to end up on the same page.
That's my theory as well (or maybe hope is the better word). The only thing is they would have to essentially retcon AC if they defeat Sephiroth once and for all at the end of the Remake. Though that's something I would totally be fine with (as long as they find poor Denzel!)
Speaking of time-traveling shenanigans/alternate reality nonsense, this could literally be the case, as I assume I will be about Marle's age by the time we see the last part of the Remake.
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
Good morning, all!
Cloud when Tifa is not there vs Cloud when Tifa is there:
Tifa telling Cloud not to worry about his height and their height difference because it's relaxing for her when her face is close to his.
Edit: comforting rather than relaxing
Cloud when Tifa is not there vs Cloud when Tifa is there:
Tifa telling Cloud not to worry about his height and their height difference because it's relaxing for her when her face is close to his.
Edit: comforting rather than relaxing
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All of this so much! Remake Cloud is something else, isn't he. I really loved the recurring motif of "Life Lessons" between them, as well as the cute teacher-student dynamic. I think this might be only present in the English version, but I really liked the battle banter where he's like, "Keep those gloves up!" and she responds with "Sure thing, coach!" Can't remember what the Japanese equivalent is, maybe Peko can help out.
I was honestly amazed that there was so much casual flirting between the two of them, and it felt so natural too.
Same, I thought the Promise was given extra emphasis in the Remake by the simple change that Cloud remembers it on his own, and in a scene that has nothing to do with Tifa. Same with the flashback when he's with Aerith and those kids. It just shows that Tifa is always on his mind, some way or another. (And we'll see how much she's on his mind in the Lifestream.
)Agree with this too. I personally kind of always saw it as Tifa just wanting to see Cloud again, but that was also with the existence of CC, where she notes that she has to protect herself and can't wait for someone to come save her. With the Remake, in their "Alone at Last" scene, it's so clear that she's just happy he's back in her life again. She gives that little speech about how they thought they'd go their separate ways and never meet again. Of course, we all know Cloud and Tifa are two people who will always find their way back to each other, no matter what life throws at them.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
The life lessons are hilarious to me because I really see the 16 years old Cloud desperately trying to act like an adult. Trying to understand how all of this works and how to make it looks like he’s got it. Playing it cool, just like later on when president Shinra tells him and Tifa and Barret that SOLDIERS have short lifespans, he’s lying through his teeth to make it sound like he of course knows everything (although in that case it’s probably Jenova modifying his memories).
But yes it’s striking that he wants to stay in sector 7. It’s even such a focus when he’s with Aerith in sector 5, like the only thing that remains in the back of his head, probably because he knows Tifa needs his help and wants to go back by her side. In such a short time, sector 7 became his sector, where his friends are, where he’s trying to settle down. And damn if his convo with Barret and Tifa about rebuilding 7th Heaven feels like he wants to stuck around them for the longest time possible. It’s really a nice throwback to AC/C where you see that they are both part of his family/pack with the wolf motif.
But yes it’s striking that he wants to stay in sector 7. It’s even such a focus when he’s with Aerith in sector 5, like the only thing that remains in the back of his head, probably because he knows Tifa needs his help and wants to go back by her side. In such a short time, sector 7 became his sector, where his friends are, where he’s trying to settle down. And damn if his convo with Barret and Tifa about rebuilding 7th Heaven feels like he wants to stuck around them for the longest time possible. It’s really a nice throwback to AC/C where you see that they are both part of his family/pack with the wolf motif.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
And since we're talking about them lightly flirting with each other during the game, here's one I haven't seen in-game (and probably never will because I suck at this mini-game 
)
Honestly, this was another nice addition. They flirt with each other SO MUCH and most of them are initiated by Cloud of all people, lol.
And on that subject, It's really nice to see how most of their moments, in general, are initiated by Cloud or how positively he respond when they're initiated by Tifa. He always the one seeking for her, caring for her, getting jealously of her lol. It's just... really nice how 'mutual' their interactions are.
)Honestly, this was another nice addition. They flirt with each other SO MUCH and most of them are initiated by Cloud of all people, lol.
And on that subject, It's really nice to see how most of their moments, in general, are initiated by Cloud or how positively he respond when they're initiated by Tifa. He always the one seeking for her, caring for her, getting jealously of her lol. It's just... really nice how 'mutual' their interactions are.
Hadn't seen that particular interaction yet, I think it's more of a reference to the fact that Cloud actually has read her mind through the Jenova cells.And since we're talking about them lightly flirting with each other during the game, here's one I haven't seen in-game (and probably never will because I suck at this mini-game
Honestly, this was another nice addition. They flirt with each other SO MUCH and most of them are initiated by Cloud of all people, lol.
And on that subject, It's really nice to see how most of their moments, in general, are initiated by Cloud or how positively he respond when they're initiated by Tifa. He always the one seeking for her, caring for her, getting jealously of her lol. It's just... really nice how 'mutual' their interactions are.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
And since we're talking about them lightly flirting with each other during the game, here's one I haven't seen in-game (and probably never will because I suck at this mini-game
Honestly, this was another nice addition. They flirt with each other SO MUCH and most of them are initiated by Cloud of all people, lol.
And on that subject, It's really nice to see how most of their moments, in general, are initiated by Cloud or how positively he respond when they're initiated by Tifa. He always the one seeking for her, caring for her, getting jealously of her lol. It's just... really nice how 'mutual' their interactions are.
The "Thank God" makes it seem like Tifa is constantly thinking dirty thoughts about Cloud or daydreaming about him.
I was thinking that too.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
That was the most telling moment, IMO. It feels like a very deliberate decision to have Tifa appear in every chapter in the game save for Ch. 2 (I guess having her show up in Cloud's Nibelheim vision would have been giving away the game too early). Also appreciated the two explicit references to Tifa and Cloud's relationship with her in Chapter one. By the time we finally meet her in Chapter 3, she's not like just any other new character. You're already supposed to be wondering who she is and what her exactly is her deal with Cloud.
Back to that Chapter 8 moment, that's another change from the OG that I thought was a huge improvement. Originally, Aerith asks Cloud if Tifa is his girlfriend just because Cloud mentions he wants to go back to Tifa's bar. It sort of reeks of misogyny for Aerith to be jealous of another woman for merely existing. In the Remake, her asking makes a lot more sense, because uhh....who just randomly says another woman's name out of the blue? Cloud's response also kind of splits the difference between the two optional responses from the OG. No, she's not his girlfriend, but she's not exactly not his girlfriend either.
That brings me to something else I've been thinking about. As much as the Remake has expanded on the OG, it's very interesting that one thing the Remake actually has less of is player choice. At least not in terms of decisions that meaningfully change the plot. No matter what you say to Aerith, Cloud will always buy the flower. No matter what you say to Tifa, she'll always make Cloud a drink. Other than who you choose in the sewer and the Chapter 14 resolution you see, every player will essentially experience the exact same story. Even with the resolutions, the game actively encourages you to see them all by including it in the play log. All this does have me think that their intention is to make the LTD way less ambiguous this time.
On another game design note, I thought it was a very interesting choice that for the player to get all of Tifa's dresses, you have to complete all the Sector 7 sidequests, which of course means you have to see her optional 'Alone at Last' scene and get enough points to see her resolution scene. For both Cloud's and Aerith's dresses, which one you get depends on the number of quests you complete. The devs could have easily made Tifa's dress dependent on the number of quests completed as well, but the fact that they didn't is well...interesting.
Given how close Tifa is with Barret, and the instant connection she forms with Aerith, were we not collectively burdened with 23 years of LTD nonsense, I honestly think the question we'd be asking wouldn't be 'Does Cloud love Tifa?' but 'Does Tifa love Cloud?'
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
I think you only get this interaction if you do a good job and don't mess up too much. If I remember correctly it's when you go collect the materials that you discarded from the airbuster. I got a similar dialog in my second playthrough.
When I first came here, based on the Remake alone, before having played the original game, I actually thought Cloud had a huge crush on Tifa, and I questioned Tifa's feelings for Cloud. ?
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
You put into words here something I've been thinking for a while too but just couldn't understand why I was finding it so amusing somehow. It's definitely interesting lol.
That's why I appreciate so much @odekopeko's opinions over this matter
. Sometimes have too much info can kinda "block" us to see changes and things more clearer due to years of having a formed opinion over this or that when it comes to the LTD.Anyway, I'm loving your inputs @insanehobbit, can I ask your thoughts about this scene? (@JT77fp you too if you want).
It's my fav scene and I just love seeing people talk about it
I remember Peko saying this early on and it's funny because I have a friend who's a newcomer to the game as well through the Remake. He also thinks Cloud has a crush on Tifa but isn't sure what Tifa thinks of Cloud.
RhinoKart
Pro Adventurer
I actually think this is a really interesting point in Remake (I think OG makes it more clear Tifa has feelings for Cloud), since all we have is the Midgar portion of the story we are lacking the major moments in the OG that would show Tifa's love for Cloud. I've been thinking for a while that Remake leaves the romance portion of the story in a place where Cloud is aware of his feelings for Tifa, but he is unaware that Tifa returns those feelings. Tifa for her part may be aware that Cloud has feelings for her but is hesitant to address them because she is aware there is something wrong with Cloud (and part 2 is only going to increase this perception).
The main moments I'd point to in Remake are Tifa wanting to save Cloud before he falls from Reactor 5 (she kicks and punches Barret as he hauls her away because she doesn't want to leave Cloud), her saving him after the Rufus fight, and Tifa being the one by his bedside in Shinra tower.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Maybe I am in the minority here but as I was playing through the Remake, I never really questioned whether or not TIfa liked Cloud. The reason why is because of all the nonverbal indicators that I see when Tifa interacts with Cloud throughout the game. Maybe, I have my shipping goggles on but I think the indicators are there all the time. Especially in the more quieter moments of the game.
The amount of physical touching throughout the game, when they don't really need to be physical. The look on Tifa's face at the well, when Cloud told her he is leaving the village. Also, I think we discussed this before about on of their motif "words are not the only.." fits in perfectly here as well. In my opinion playing through the Remake, I have no doubts that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, her hurdle is the internal conflict of her insecurities.
The amount of physical touching throughout the game, when they don't really need to be physical. The look on Tifa's face at the well, when Cloud told her he is leaving the village. Also, I think we discussed this before about on of their motif "words are not the only.." fits in perfectly here as well. In my opinion playing through the Remake, I have no doubts that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, her hurdle is the internal conflict of her insecurities.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
The thing is, I think that while Cloud’s feelings are easy to see by the player, Cloud himself doesn’t understand his own feelings for Tifa. Yes he’s transparent, but he’s really messed up and thinking about it really puts him in a dangerous position, as it would open too much his memories - and it’s something Jenovah cannot allow. So while Cloud is the easiest to see through, he is not aware of ehat those feelings are. They are still a locked, tender memory.
On the other hand, Tifa’s feelings can be harder to decipher but there are several hints in game that show that she too, loves him:
- she accepts the flower, something we learn that she normally doesn’t do with flirting guys
- she is very happy to receive the beautiful compliment
- she invites Cloud to a date
- she gets a bit jealous when Aerith catch Cloud’s arm
- she is by his bedside in Aerith’s room
- Aerith tells her to follow her heart and next thing we know she is by Cloud’s side
And those are only very visible hints. There are all the banter and flirty moments she has with Cloud, and we know she doesn’t flirt normally. There are all those touchy moments she has with him, she doesn’t reject Cloud’s touches either, initiates them too. So knowing her history and seeing how she acts with Cloud, it’s crystal clear that she has feelings for him, it’s not only worry for what’s going on with him.
On the other hand, Tifa’s feelings can be harder to decipher but there are several hints in game that show that she too, loves him:
- she accepts the flower, something we learn that she normally doesn’t do with flirting guys
- she is very happy to receive the beautiful compliment
- she invites Cloud to a date
- she gets a bit jealous when Aerith catch Cloud’s arm
- she is by his bedside in Aerith’s room
- Aerith tells her to follow her heart and next thing we know she is by Cloud’s side
And those are only very visible hints. There are all the banter and flirty moments she has with Cloud, and we know she doesn’t flirt normally. There are all those touchy moments she has with him, she doesn’t reject Cloud’s touches either, initiates them too. So knowing her history and seeing how she acts with Cloud, it’s crystal clear that she has feelings for him, it’s not only worry for what’s going on with him.
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
@Graymouse I think I honestly missed the more subtle cues about Tifa's affections for him because I wasn't really paying attention, and I didn't really understand her character yet. That she was shy and stuff. I got a hint of it only during the train roll scene when they both couldn't hold each other's gazes and quickly looked away.
With Cloud it was a bit more obvious (to me) because after Jessie questioned him he remembers that scene with her as a young girl, and then when he gets back to Sector 7, and Tifa brings him to his apartment, when she said she talked to the landlady about him, he actually said なんて? Like, "What did you tell her?" But he sounded so expectant, wanting to know how Tifa introduced him to Marle. I thought it was super cute. Also he was acting jealous with the item store guy.
And then came the flirting, and all those physical touches. It was just a little more obvious from Cloud.
It wasn't until I sat and thought about it for a while or rewatched scenes that I realised it and how much of it there was from Tifa as well. You guys have probably seen me discovering them interaction by interaction in the LTD.
With Cloud it was a bit more obvious (to me) because after Jessie questioned him he remembers that scene with her as a young girl, and then when he gets back to Sector 7, and Tifa brings him to his apartment, when she said she talked to the landlady about him, he actually said なんて? Like, "What did you tell her?" But he sounded so expectant, wanting to know how Tifa introduced him to Marle. I thought it was super cute. Also he was acting jealous with the item store guy.
And then came the flirting, and all those physical touches. It was just a little more obvious from Cloud.
It wasn't until I sat and thought about it for a while or rewatched scenes that I realised it and how much of it there was from Tifa as well. You guys have probably seen me discovering them interaction by interaction in the LTD.