Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Something really cute:


Also reading this tweet:

Where they mention how we always see Tifa through Cloud's eyes, I am reminded that yeah, we do have his POV a lot on her lol.

As for Barret being here most of the times, I don't mind because they still have their little time together, always, every time that's needed. It's the same when they're with Aerith or even the whole team, I noticed that we do get some fleeting moments that they share together, no matter who is with them. I find that very enjoyable, especially since it's only the first part of the game, and cloti is supposed to be a slow burn - if they were only together more, I'm afraid they wouldn't be a slow burn anymore lol.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
Where they mention how we always see Tifa through Cloud's eyes, I am reminded that yeah, we do have his POV a lot on her lol.

Yeah, and while there are quite a few Cloud POV shots throughout the game in general, his POV shots of Tifa feel different. With a lot of the others, they're either walking into his POV - so it comes at a surprise, or it just happens to be what he's looking at. With Tifa, it feels like he's directing his gaze at her. This is partially because Tifa isn't the type of person to get all up in his personal space, but it's also the camerawork, length of the shot, and the preceding shot (we often see him turn first before we see his POV of Tifa). It gives us a feeling that Cloud is actively seeking her out.

One thing I noticed is that in Ch. 3 + 4, unless the game returns control to the player first, Cloud watches Tifa leave every time she exits a room. This is either through a Cloud POV shot or a reverse shot of Cloud so we can see where he's looking. The instances were:
  • The first night after Tifa shows Cloud his room
  • When she heads down into the basement after she makes him a drink
  • After the Jessie Job when they have their heart to heart (this the infamous 'Goodnight, Tifa~' and he's literally staring at the door for like 10 seconds after she leaves)
  • And finally, that scene at the end of Ch. 4 as she leaves the bar after he joins the Sector 5 Reactor mission.
Obviously, other people are entering and exiting rooms all the time, but the game doesn't draw our attention to Cloud when that happens. Like in Chapter 4, Cloud also talks to Jessie as she's riding the pinball machine to the basement but he pointedly looks away as she leaves. In Ch. 8, when he and Aerith leave her house to collect flowers, Aerith walks out of the door first, but instead of us seeing Cloud watch her leave, it cuts to a reverse shot of Aerith holding the door as Cloud leaves.

Going back to the whole Cloud/Tifa/Barret trio -- there's another thing I noticed about how Cloud/Tifa are framed, even in scenes with other people.
There's continuity of motion when Cloud and Tifa are reacting to the same thing, that doesn't happen quite nearly as much for other character pairs. Most of the time, the game cuts to a different shot when a different character begins to speak, but often for Cloud + Tifa, as long as are they are in close proximity (and again, they are in close proximity a lot) the game will show both of them speaking in one continuous shot.

A good example is the exposition dump we get the beginning of Ch. 6. Barret explains the mission to Cloud, and then Tifa elaborates. (These shots immediately follow each other, but the free gifmaker thing I use has a 10 second time limit, so this is what we have to work with, lol):

sectorfive1.gif
When Cloud is speaking to Barret, note how the game cuts to a different shot when Barret responds.

Immediately after, when Cloud asks for further clarity:
sectorfive2.gif
The camera pans to Tifa for her response rather than cutting to a different shot.


We also see this when the trio is talking to Elmyra during Ch. 14. And this particular moment, I do think the framing is quite telling:
elmyra1.gif
I could see how a player would take Cloud's line as being more meaningful (especially if they saw Aerith's resolution just before this), but by including Tifa's reaction in the same shot, the game is presenting Cloud and Tifa's responses as one continuous action, if not necessarily something of equal importance. We're already well aware of where each character is standing before this, so if they had wanted to give emphasis to Cloud's line, they could easily cut to a different shot of Tifa without us being confused about where she came from.

The visuals of this scene do a great job of emphasizing that this is very much a group rescue, not just something that Cloud wants to do. Each of the trio gets a close-up when they converse with Elmyra, and there's also a wonderful shot where the camera pans to and holds on each character, convincing Elmyra of their determination. (Sadly, I can only attach 5 images per post, so you'll have to check that out yourself)


Let's go back to the train graveyard. Here's a scene where Tifa is worried about what's going to happen to Sector 7 and both Cloud and Aerith are trying to comfort her.

graveyard1.gif
Aerith is already in the frame when Cloud is responding, and we can even see her nod. The camera could easily pan a bit to right when Aerith answers, but instead we cut to a close-up of her face when she speaks. This is visual equivalent of saying: 'Cloud reassures Tifa; Aerith reassures Tifa.' vs. 'Cloud and Aerith reassure Tifa.'


graveyard2.gif
This moment has been discussed already - when Cloud and Tifa find Aerith before the Eligor fight. Cloud takes care of her physical well-being, while Tifa takes care of her emotional well-being. The game gives equal weight to both. I really liked this shot of Cloud leaving while Tifa walks into the frame. It's the visual equivalent of them passing the baton so to speak.

Now, there's nothing inherently romantic or shippy about this kind of framing. But as much as the Remake is emphasizing the team dynamic/everyone's relationships with each other, this is a subtle technique that makes us associate Cloud and Tifa as a unit unto themselves even when they are surrounded by other people.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Guys, I have been bouncing this worry idea around in my head for the last few days, before I wanted to put words to paper so to speak. So, here goes with all the pandering that we have been getting in the Cloud X Tifa world since the release of FF7R. Do you guys think that the second game will lean away from this pairing? Meaning that we won't get as much Cloud X Tifa "shippy" moments as we have got in the first game?

Regarding, the over arching story line and all, I know that Cloud X Tifa will have some things to get through and (talk about or not talk about) in the second installment. I am just curious what everyone thinks about the second game.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I think they can and should lean into Cloud/Aeris. Cloud and Tifa need time to percolate -- we need to root for them, but until Mideel they really aren't good together. There's too much dividing them -- and Cloud's version of the Nibelheim Incident can and should drive a major wedge between them. I don't think we'll be devoid of Cloud/Tifa moments, but at this point in the story, it shouldn't be sunshine and roses. This melodrama train has left Midgar Station woo woo
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
Thanks everyone for your views on kick-ass trio that's TBC (Tifa, Barret and Cloud).

I also like that they don't get a lot of one-on-one time but you know they want it. We want it. I like that Cloud is never forced to be alone with Tifa, but he has to work his butt off so he could be rewarded with spending time alone with her. And even when other people are around, they have their sweet moments.

I thought this was a great perspective. You're absolutely right. Now that I think about it, that longing of wanting to spend time alone just makes it so much more precious and desirable. I guess the title "Alone At Last" perfectly encapsulates that.

Going back to the whole Cloud/Tifa/Barret trio -- there's another thing I noticed about how Cloud/Tifa are framed, even in scenes with other people.
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I'll never ever view cut scenes the same way ever again after reading your analyses. I'm tempted to rewatch / replay again and it might just tide me through till Part 2 comes out. Haha.

Guys, I have been bouncing this worry idea around in my head for the last few days, before I wanted to put words to paper so to speak. So, here goes with all the pandering that we have been getting in the Cloud X Tifa world since the release of FF7R. Do you guys think that the second game will lean away from this pairing? Meaning that we won't get as much Cloud X Tifa "shippy" moments as we have got in the first game?

Regarding, the over arching story line and all, I know that Cloud X Tifa will have some things to get through and (talk about or not talk about) in the second installment. I am just curious what everyone thinks about the second game.

I had the same lingering concern as well. I'm tampering my expectations as not to be disappointed and perhaps the story in Part 2 might lend itself to fewer "romantic" moments. I would be more concerned if the developers decided to take a drastic turn and shake things up in later parts just for shock value. I hope it would't be one of those "Enjoy CloTi while you can because we'll rip that away from you".

It's through @insanehobbit's many analyses that gave me the confidence that if the developers placed that much effort to frame scenes the way they did, I think they are probably quite invested in this relationship.

Kitase is often quoted saying that SE does not comment on the relationship except for what is depicted in game. I used to be annoyed by that because it felt so ambiguous, but after reading the analyses, perhaps they really have made it pretty darn clear, save from spelling it out with a kiss or more.

Also, I just came across this post from SE's Facebook account!

SE1.PNG
(Sorry, the post's privacy setting didn't allow for a preview on the forum)

I was a little disappointed that SE stayed quiet after PS Japan posted that awesome Tanabata post and while this is in no way about romance, I like how the quote is about "maintaining elements that remains in our memories" and specifically using this promise scene. Likely because it is literally a memory, but I'm hoping it's also a nod to say that "we know that this is what you treasure, and we'll maintain these elements."

Probably giving SE's marketing too much benefit of doubt, but just happy to see these 2 featured together!
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Interesting, they used a picture of "the promise", can we take that as a promise that the next installment won't deviate too much from the OG? Lol. Because in his last interview with the Guardian, Kitase was like "I can't tell you that" and I feel they must have added tons of scenes since their last interview for the Ultimania.

I think Kalm will be interesting to follow, because many people have said Tifa should have talked at that moment, not realising it would break Cloud. So I hope they will add a scene with Tifa and Aerith talking about this to frame this better. Also, in this part of the game, there aren't a lot of shippy moments anyway, and they're mostly devoted to Aerith. But that was also the case for Midgar, so we might get surprised. I know a lot of people don't mind if the GS date becomes Aerith-only, but I wouldn't really like it; it's the only time where Cloud and Tifa can have a fun date. Cloud and Aerith already had all ch9 which is the best and most fun moment in the OG, I'd like some for Tifa as well personally.

Also, I have a question, because I have troubles interpreting Cloud's reaction to Leslie and Tifa's chat about the flower; I've seen people framing this as both clerith and cloti, but I'm not really sure. What do you think about this scene, and most importantly, about Cloud's reaction?
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
I think they can and should lean into Cloud/Aeris. Cloud and Tifa need time to percolate -- we need to root for them, but until Mideel they really aren't good together. There's too much dividing them -- and Cloud's version of the Nibelheim Incident can and should drive a major wedge between them. I don't think we'll be devoid of Cloud/Tifa moments, but at this point in the story, it shouldn't be sunshine and roses. This melodrama train has left Midgar Station woo woo

Yeah, I can understand what you are saying. However, I do find it very strange though that in the OG and specifically disc 1 was so heavy Cloud X Aerith that it genuinely surprised me at how drastically different the Remake was. Perhaps, I am seeing how things went in the Remake through an extremely bias lens that I am reading too much into how much Cloud X Tifa moments there were in Part 1.

I think I am a minority here when I say this because I disagree with you about the scene in Kalm where Cloud tells his skewed version of the Niblelheim incident as a major wedge that will be driven between them. I think this time it actually might bring them closer. The reason why I say this is because Tifa seems to be a little bit more forthcoming with her emotions this time around.

CH14 resolution points towards this. Never before has Tifa wore her feelings on her sleeve the way she did when she was talking to Cloud that night. There are other scenes that point to this as well. I am referencing the scene where Tifa ask Cloud for the first time about what happened after he left the village that didn't get resolved until the "alone at last" scene. The entire new dynamics of Tifa and Aerith being really close friends already kinda points towards this as well.

Perhaps SE will actually add the rumored scene that was left out of the OG where Tifa and Aerith talked about the differences between Clouds recount and Tifa's memory of what happened at Nibleheim. Thus making Tifa want to stay close by Cloud because she knows that something just isn't quite right with him. Whether or not she talks directly to Cloud about it remains to be seen. I am not sure she will do that because just like @Eerie has mentioned above that this might shatter Clouds pyche at this moment in time. It could do more harm than good and I believe Tifa knows this so she probably will only talk about it with Aerith if at all.
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
I know a lot of people don't mind if the GS date becomes Aerith-only, but I wouldn't really like it; it's the only time where Cloud and Tifa can have a fun date. Cloud and Aerith already had all ch9 which is the best and most fun moment in the OG, I'd like some for Tifa as well personally.

Here's a Cloud & Tifa GS date in advance!

Source: http://fav.me/ddyion9
cloud_and_tifa__the_gold_saucer_by_lonewolf117_ddyion9-pre.jpg


Speaking of Chapter 9. While it was mainly with Aerith, I did like the idea that the chapter was in fact about Tifa. The whole purpose of that chapter was to rescue Tifa and it's probably not wrong to say that throughout the whole chapter, Cloud's mind was solely on rescuing Tifa. I love how even during Cloud - Aerith sections, it still serves to build up Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
  • We know that Cloud thinks Tifa's in great shape
  • Saving Tifa from a life without him or in the Japanese version, Aerith confirming that Tifa is Cloud's type
  • Midgar Blues
  • Cloud danced in order to save Tifa
  • Fought in the Colosseum in order to save Tifa
  • Cross-dressed in order to save Tifa
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Square is doing a survey on all the different choices made! Download the FF Portal App (app store and Google) here to vote. You might have to just search for "Final Fantasy Portal App" in your App Store or Google Play Store if the link doesn't work. https://na.finalfantasy.com/topics/186


Screenshot_2020-07-10-20-04-58-710_com.square_enix.ffportal_w.googleplay.jpg

You can vote for Tifa's dresses, Cloud's, which resolution scene you got, etc.

I don't think we'll be devoid of Cloud/Tifa moments, but at this point in the story, it shouldn't be sunshine and roses. This melodrama train has left Midgar Station woo woo
that longing of wanting to spend time alone just makes it so much more precious and desirable. I guess the title "Alone At Last" perfectly encapsulates that.

b1bd60952526c92e2e42d9fc2cc4474db190d554.png


This is Cloti for me, basically.

I can't say too much about post-Kalm because I'm not quite sure how they'll delve into the relationships at that point, but I agree with Ite in that we're in for some angst and drama. And to me, that's not necessarily a bad thing because it adds to the complexity and emotional beats of Cloud and Tifa's relationships.

They dance and step on eggshells around each other for the majority of the game, both longing for one another but completely oblivious to the other's feelings. And then there's the added dimension of Cloud not remembering his feelings for Tifa and kinda crushing on the new girl. As much as FF7 is a game that subverts expectations and tropes (it still does), this is a love storyline straight out of high school romcoms. Boy-Next-Door and Girl-Next-Door are friends; Girl crushes on Boy when a New Transfer Student comes in; Boy starts crushing on New Transfer Student but eventually realizes that it isn't true love and that he's actually been in love with Girl-Next-Door this whole time.

Obviously that's a gross simplification and Cloud and Tifa's relationship is much deeper and complex than that, but the elements of this trope are still present. So, in Part 2, I think things will get worse before they get better. And that's not a bad thing! It doesn't mean we'll be devoid of CT moments, it just means their moments will feel more loaded and emotionally driven, which is a great thing for relationship/character development.

Also, I have a question, because I have troubles interpreting Cloud's reaction to Leslie and Tifa's chat about the flower; I've seen people framing this as both clerith and cloti, but I'm not really sure. What do you think about this scene, and most importantly, about Cloud's reaction?

Yeah I spoke a little bit about this in the LTD thread a while ago. I think it can be interpreted both ways — the only reason I see it as more of a Cloti moment is because Cloud and Tifa (as @odekopeko has said before) haven't had their true reunion yet. And those words, "We'll meet again" are ripped straight out of the OG Lifestream sequence.

eehl6m9xsauuvbw-jpeg.6694

Alongside that, given the lingering of that moment — Cloud looks deep in thought after Tifa says those words — you'd think that if his reunion with Aerith were so important at Shinra Tower they would've put more weight into the scene where they actually do reunite. As it stands, that reunion scene doesn't seem like much of a Cloud-Aerith reunion rather than a Group-Aerith reunion. But of course, that's just my interpretation, we haven't even gotten to the Lifestream yet so who knows how that scene will go. But yeah, to me that Leslie scene is pretty Cloti, also because Tifa is indirectly compared to Leslie's fiancée earlier on while Cloud is put in Leslie's shoes (aka man trying to save his woman from Corneo's clutches).
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Yeah, and while there are quite a few Cloud POV shots throughout the game in general, his POV shots of Tifa feel different. With a lot of the others, they're either walking into his POV - so it comes at a surprise, or it just happens to be what he's looking at. With Tifa, it feels like he's directing his gaze at her. This is partially because Tifa isn't the type of person to get all up in his personal space, but it's also the camerawork, length of the shot, and the preceding shot (we often see him turn first before we see his POV of Tifa). It gives us a feeling that Cloud is actively seeking her out.

One thing I noticed is that in Ch. 3 + 4, unless the game returns control to the player first, Cloud watches Tifa leave every time she exits a room. This is either through a Cloud POV shot or a reverse shot of Cloud so we can see where he's looking. The instances were:
  • The first night after Tifa shows Cloud his room
  • When she heads down into the basement after she makes him a drink
  • After the Jessie Job when they have their heart to heart (this the infamous 'Goodnight, Tifa~' and he's literally staring at the door for like 10 seconds after she leaves)
  • And finally, that scene at the end of Ch. 4 as she leaves the bar after he joins the Sector 5 Reactor mission.
Obviously, other people are entering and exiting rooms all the time, but the game doesn't draw our attention to Cloud when that happens. Like in Chapter 4, Cloud also talks to Jessie as she's riding the pinball machine to the basement but he pointedly looks away as she leaves. In Ch. 8, when he and Aerith leave her house to collect flowers, Aerith walks out of the door first, but instead of us seeing Cloud watch her leave, it cuts to a reverse shot of Aerith holding the door as Cloud leaves.

Going back to the whole Cloud/Tifa/Barret trio -- there's another thing I noticed about how Cloud/Tifa are framed, even in scenes with other people.
There's continuity of motion when Cloud and Tifa are reacting to the same thing, that doesn't happen quite nearly as much for other character pairs. Most of the time, the game cuts to a different shot when a different character begins to speak, but often for Cloud + Tifa, as long as are they are in close proximity (and again, they are in close proximity a lot) the game will show both of them speaking in one continuous shot.

A good example is the exposition dump we get the beginning of Ch. 6. Barret explains the mission to Cloud, and then Tifa elaborates. (These shots immediately follow each other, but the free gifmaker thing I use has a 10 second time limit, so this is what we have to work with, lol):

View attachment 7065
When Cloud is speaking to Barret, note how the game cuts to a different shot when Barret responds.

Immediately after, when Cloud asks for further clarity:
View attachment 7066
The camera pans to Tifa for her response rather than cutting to a different shot.


We also see this when the trio is talking to Elmyra during Ch. 14. And this particular moment, I do think the framing is quite telling:
View attachment 7067
I could see how a player would take Cloud's line as being more meaningful (especially if they saw Aerith's resolution just before this), but by including Tifa's reaction in the same shot, the game is presenting Cloud and Tifa's responses as one continuous action, if not necessarily something of equal importance. We're already well aware of where each character is standing before this, so if they had wanted to give emphasis to Cloud's line, they could easily cut to a different shot of Tifa without us being confused about where she came from.

The visuals of this scene do a great job of emphasizing that this is very much a group rescue, not just something that Cloud wants to do. Each of the trio gets a close-up when they converse with Elmyra, and there's also a wonderful shot where the camera pans to and holds on each character, convincing Elmyra of their determination. (Sadly, I can only attach 5 images per post, so you'll have to check that out yourself)


Let's go back to the train graveyard. Here's a scene where Tifa is worried about what's going to happen to Sector 7 and both Cloud and Aerith are trying to comfort her.

View attachment 7068
Aerith is already in the frame when Cloud is responding, and we can even see her nod. The camera could easily pan a bit to right when Aerith answers, but instead we cut to a close-up of her face when she speaks. This is visual equivalent of saying: 'Cloud reassures Tifa; Aerith reassures Tifa.' vs. 'Cloud and Aerith reassure Tifa.'


View attachment 7069
This moment has been discussed already - when Cloud and Tifa find Aerith before the Eligor fight. Cloud takes care of her physical well-being, while Tifa takes care of her emotional well-being. The game gives equal weight to both. I really liked this shot of Cloud leaving while Tifa walks into the frame. It's the visual equivalent of them passing the baton so to speak.

Now, there's nothing inherently romantic or shippy about this kind of framing. But as much as the Remake is emphasizing the team dynamic/everyone's relationships with each other, this is a subtle technique that makes us associate Cloud and Tifa as a unit unto themselves even when they are surrounded by other people.

That's a great analysis, and explains why I've been getting a very "pair" feeling from them. Just constantly in the remake it has felt to me like a couple with their new friend.

I think they can and should lean into Cloud/Aeris. Cloud and Tifa need time to percolate

Here is the thing, I think they should lean into both equally, however, with Tifa it should be awkward, you can't have distance really between people who don't talk to each other. Every moment of longing that is created serves to accentuate any distance that's between them. With Tifa it should feel like both of them are desperately trying to reach out, but can't, while Aerith should feel positive and simple in comparison.
The best example I think in the first game are Tifa and Aeriths respective comments about Clouds eyes.
Tifas response is sad and negative "your eyes....they use to be less", but that shows an immense degree of yearning, but to real Cloud, Tifa doesn't want this pretender, but her heart is crying out.
Aerith meanwhile responds positively to them, and only gets down after the Zack connection is pointed out. She's happy to see this impostor, but is saddened because it's not the real thing.

That in general is the dynamic they should go deeper into in part 2. Tifa has to be sad, but real, Aerith has to be Joyous, but fake, but both should have the same amount of attention. It's not the attention that will make the resolution have an impact, it's the shift in perspective that will allow us to re-contextualize all those interactions. People should think Aerith is the love interest because they have MORE scenes, or better scenes, but because their scenes are more positive when looked at superficially.


I think I am a minority here when I say this because I disagree with you about the scene in Kalm where Cloud tells his skewed version of the Niblelheim incident as a major wedge that will be driven between them. I think this time it actually might bring them closer. The reason why I say this is because Tifa seems to be a little bit more forthcoming with her emotions this time around.

You're forgetting that Tifa is already withholding information. At the start of the game when you mention it's been 5 years she's taken aback. Then when asked how long she's lived in Midgar she responds with "5 years give or take", and then she IMMEDIATELY changes the subject.
She doesn't ask "what the hell do you mean 5 years?" She's already aware something is a bit off, and she's already reluctant to talk about it.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
You're forgetting that Tifa is already withholding information. At the start of the game when you mention it's been 5 years she's taken aback. Then when asked how long she's lived in Midgar she responds with "5 years give or take", and then she IMMEDIATELY changes the subject.
She doesn't ask "what the hell do you mean 5 years?" She's already aware something is a bit off, and she's already reluctant to talk about it.

I wouldn't call that withholding information so much as not knowing how to process that response. Same with the Kalm flashback, because Cloud knows things that Tifa remembers as happening, only in her memories Cloud wasn't there, but a diferent guy who did the stuff Cloud said he did, but all his information is 100% in line with her memories otherwise. Tifa doubts both Cloud's recollection and her own recollection at the same time.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
She says in the Lifestream scene that nonetheless, she wished to believe it was the real Cloud during the Kalm flashback. That's why I doubt that we're going to see less cloti - remember, during the GS date, she still wants to confess her feelings to Cloud before getting interrupted by the fireworks. So clearly, that's something that the devs are going to recontextualise, as I said a chat between her and Aerith during Kalm could do wonder, especially since we know Aerith had a flashback of Zack and Cloud coming back to Midgar. And the devs do seem to take to heart to clear out all the misconceptions that have happened with the OG.

As @Stiggie said, it's probably going to be different dynamics between cloti and clerith, even more than in the first part. Which reminds me, I started to read X's post here and he made very interesting comparisons between the two pairs, but that's more for the LTD thread. I shall say that it's very interesting to read, albeit very long (and not really LTD-oriented, it dives into some pretty deep meta of the game that I do find fascinating). I need to digest.

I also need to look back at that Leslie scene a couple of time. I didn't really think about Cloud's reaction there until it was pointed out to me in a discussion. I didn't understand the clerith connexion, because even though reunion is also a clerith motif, in this case the reunion was lackluster (there wasn't any). To me, that's the one thing that draws my conclusion *away* from clerith, more than anything else. I really need to rewatch this scene before contextualisaing it, because it really flew over my head sooooooo. Mmh.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I wouldn't call that withholding information so much as not knowing how to process that response. Same with the Kalm flashback, because Cloud knows things that Tifa remembers as happening, only in her memories Cloud wasn't there, but a diferent guy who did the stuff Cloud said he did, but all his information is 100% in line with her memories otherwise. Tifa doubts both Cloud's recollection and her own recollection at the same time.
I thought so too when she responded with "huh" when Cloud mentions "it has been 5 years", but on the subsequent bringing up of her having moved to Midgar 5 years ago, and the explicit attempt to change the subject because it reminded her of his 5 years comment I changed my mind. That didn't fit someone who just didn't know how to process something.
Normally, a 5 or 7 years isn't that big of a difference, it's weird to dance around it, I don't see why she'd actively avoid it unless she specifically thought it was weird and didn't want to talk about it.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
I understand everyone's trepidation about where the Remake is going to go in its subsequent parts w/r/t LTD. After 2016, I too believe that good things can never happen again, and yes, SE doesn't have the greatest track record in the recent history. That being said, I would compare SE completely reversing course in Part 2 to me deciding to quit my job tomorrow and trying to join the circus. Both are things that could technically happen in the future....but why?

My thoughts in no particular order:
  • As much as we obsess over the LTD/romance in this game, I really don't think the devs care that much about the romance in this game. Which is not to say they don't care about the characters or their relationships. Relationships are the crux of any story, and they've taken great care in developing everyone's relationships in Part 1. I just don't think the question of who Cloud wants to bone is something they're losing sleep over. In most of the interviews I've seen, they only ever bring up the romance/LTD if it's something they're explicitly asked about. It's not really something they bring up unprompted. Are they aware that the LTD exists? Absolutely. Is thinking about how they're going to keep fans on their toes w/r/t LTD even among their third or fourth order goals when developing the subsequent parts? I doubt it
  • There's a difference between subverting audience expectations and betraying the audience. Looking back at the OG, many of the touchstones of Cloud and Aerith's potential romances are what I would classify as red herrings. The Bodyguard/Date exchange, a Love Fortune amidst a collapsing ancient temple - these are all big loud moments that the game absolutely want you to take notice of. They are meant to track a story that the audience thinks they know so that when moment at the end of Disk 1 comes, the game can rip the rug from underneath our feet. Cloud and Tifa's development in the Remake is done much more subtly. Looking back, I realize the tens of thousands of word I've written on the subject essentially boil down to "Wow, Cloud sure looks at Tifa a lot and they often share the frame," but again, it's something that was done deliberately and now part of the visual style of the Remake series. Even ignoring the character development in Part 1, should SE decide to go in the other direction in Part 2, there would have to be a visual dissonance that I think a lot of players would notice even if they haven't been dissecting every cutscene shot by shot. Should they go in that direction, it would feel less like a surprising yet well-executed twist and more like they're saying to the audience - 'Fuck you for caring.'
  • I definitely think that Aerith is going to be more in focus in Part 2, since she is much more of the Chosen One / traditional Campbellian Hero archetype. That being said, it's not 1997 anymore. Our gateway to knowing Aerith is no longer limited to Cloud's relationship and potential romance with her. In Part 1 of the Remake, our understanding of her character has already been deepened through the interactions we've seen with her and Tifa, Barret and Red. Why would Part 2 take a step backward and limit her development to her relationship with Cloud? Frankly, I think that would be pretty sexist. Especially in this leg of the game, Aerith is very much the 'Hero protagonist' while Cloud is the POV character (Think of Gatsby vs. Nick in The Great Gatsby). While romance can often be a part of a Hero's Journey, it is never the main focus. Why should Aerith's journey be any different from that of a male hero's?
I have no knowledge of the future, so I could be completely wrong and I would happily eat crow should that happen. But again, if it does, I would just be done with the FF series in general. I'm used to being disappointed by creators I admire, but this would be showing a level of disdain for their audience that would leave me not wanting to ever engage with their work again.

Also, I have a question, because I have troubles interpreting Cloud's reaction to Leslie and Tifa's chat about the flower; I've seen people framing this as both clerith and cloti, but I'm not really sure. What do you think about this scene, and most importantly, about Cloud's reaction?

@minami758 covered it quite well. I think it is a bit more ambiguous than other scenes in the game, but I also think it leans more Cloti. Cloud never really gets that glassy-eyed look when he's talking about/thinking about Aerith in the later chapters of the game. He's usually more determined and wistful. We also first notice that look when he's framed between Leslie and Tifa as they speak.

Let's say the game wanted us to think that Cloud was thinking about Aerith in that moment. When Barret explicitly tells Leslie that they're also looking for someone when they get outside, the game should have cut to a reaction shot of Cloud. Instead it cuts straight to Leslie. When do see Cloud again, he's wishing Leslie luck and he has that determined/supportive face on, no longer looking teary eyed at all. This is another sequence where each member of the trio gets a close up reaction shot, so again, I think it's framing Aerith's rescue very much as a team goal as opposed to something that's just important to Cloud.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
As much as we obsess over the LTD/romance in this game, I really don't think the devs care that much about the romance in this game. Which is not to say they don't care about the characters or their relationships. Relationships are the crux of any story, and they've taken great care in developing everyone's relationships in Part 1. I just don't think the question of who Cloud wants to bone is something they're losing sleep over. In most of the interviews I've seen, they only ever bring up the romance/LTD if it's something they're explicitly asked about. It's not really something they bring up unprompted. Are they aware that the LTD exists? Absolutely. Is thinking about how they're going to keep fans on their toes w/r/t LTD even among their third or fourth order goals when developing the subsequent parts? I doubt it

I think a lot of people overlook this; it's like when a clerith asked Kitase I think about their pairing and he answered that they'd do their best with the characters. They like those characters and their relationships. I think it really shows in the Remake, especially with Cloud and Barret, you can see their comradeship grow over the missions, and Barret understanding why he means so much to Tifa as he grows to respect him, even though so many things separated them at first. To the devs, all relationships between their characters, may they be romantic or not, are important, because they set the tone of the story.

I also tend to think that back then with the OG, they did not think that they created an infamous LTD at all. To them, on the romance part, it was pretty straightforward, and one of the interviews just shows that: "ok the heroine is going to die, we need another one so the hero won't be lonely". In short, they thought "hey, here, Aerith dies, but look, in out twist scenario, Cloud's always loved Tifa, and they end up together". Pretty simple and straightforward - except the execution lacked, may it be because by design the OG handled a good part of the story to you to fill, also because they wanted so bad to shock people with the twist "Cloud is not how you thought he was" that they completely hide his true character (making him a big arsehole too) and thus, hiding his true love for Tifa. To them, the answer was simple, and the fact that they were Japanese with another set of values for fans' theories meant that during long years they did not dispel that idea that Cloud was searching for Aerith in the Promise Land.

However to me, the way they showcase cloti shows that those days are over - at least for the LTD. They seem bent on changing some perceptions, notably towards their characters (Tifa's jealousy comes to mind, even though it's still there, but also the girls' friendship we could never see develop due to how the OG was, Aerith's flirtiness, Cloud's complete characterisation as his SOLDIER self, Barret and his place in Avalanche, etc.). In the way cloti is framed throughout the game, but also how they interact, the way you can see the distance shrinking quite naturally... I was thinking about Nojima's quote about how Cloud can't prevent the distance between him and Aerrith shrinking, but in this part, it's all Aerith's work.

In the case of Cloud and Tifa, what everyone has noticed, is how painfully large it is at the beginning of the game, when they are at the bar on in their rooms. You can sense the uneasiness, and some sort of yearning there - they want to be around each other, they seek each other, but there is still that distance that they don't dare cross. Then, Alone at last happens, and this is where you can feel that the distance starts shrinking. Then they get attacked by whispers, and from memory there, Cloud tries to reach Tifa's hand but can't - and suddenly, destiny makes sure that they go together for the next mission, and we get the train roll lol. I think it's really around there that the distance starts diminishing, really fast, it's like that train roll was the thing that made them go "nah we're good in each other's arms, thank you" lol. Joking around aside, they do get separated again, and interestingly enough, it's Aerith's presence that shrinks that distance again. You could have thought that her presence would have had the reverse effect, but that's not what happened, she triggered Tifa in an interesting way - with that arm grab that surprised Cloud so much. From there, they become much more comfortable around each other, and I think it's also going to serve as the basis that "Tifa choses to believe Cloud and his story, that this is the real Cloud" as well as "Tifa wants to confess her feelings" during the GS date.

While writing this huge chunk of a paragraph, it suddenly hit me that during that scene I referenced with the whispers, Cloud cannot reach Tifa and save her, while at the pillar, he does reach her in slow motion and saves her. I think it's somehow telling and a showcase too of the closeness they gained, metaphorically speaking of course, during the course of the game. Tifa hesitates in ch4, so she's not able to grab Cloud's hand. During the pillar scene, she does not hesitate, and is rewarded with Cloud saving her. I have wondered for the longest time why the game insisted on that hand grab, but I can see now why they did. Which does bring us to Tifa saving Cloud, which is an allusion to the end of the game of course, where she saves him too from falling down.

Rewatching that scene in slow motion in ch4, I was wrong, Tifa does not hesitate. But I got the clear impression, as both were running towards the bar, that the whispers attacked (or rather immobilised) Tifa on purpose, knowing that Cloud would not leave her alone. Sure they were standing between him and the bar, but clearly at that moment, he switched target and focused only on saving Tifa. Still, they couldn't connect in that scene, which is a stark contrast with the pillar scene, IMHO.
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I'm sorry if I'm breaking up the flow of the conversation, but I have a quick question. In the og, devs described that game as having two heroines. I just assumed it would be the same and never questioned it. But, in the FF7R interviews I've watched and read so far, I've only heard Tifa being called.the heroine of the game, while Aerith is the "utmost important character." I'm curious to know, has she been called the heroine for FF7R in any other interviews that I may be missing? I was watching that video on SE youtube, and while initially I didn't think much of it, seeing someone's translation of another interview from the Ultimania where they reiterated her importance again, but did not use the word "heroine" has me feeling some type of weird way.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Don't worry, I was feeling that I did kill the conversation haha... I wonder about that. I feel that Aerith's importance... is more than just "heroine" to be honest. First I thought that they wanted to hide Aerith's importance as a heroine so they didn't mention it (pre-release). But it's weird to see that again in the Ultimania. In a way, I feel that Aerith's role is maybe more important than Cloud's himself (as she is Sephiroth's contrary, and even leads the team into the crossroad of destiny). And Tifa has more the traditional role of an heroine, to be beside the hero and help him. Aerith's role, by being tied to the overarching plot, is just more important. It has always been Tifa's role to be beside Cloud, so to be "the heroine", both in support and romantic sense, as JP often conflate (from my observation). So maybe this is why they don't call her a heroine, because she is more than just that.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
@odekopeko I didn't realized Aerith was never called the "heroine" in FF7R. I always assumed that she and Tifa were described as dual heroines again in FF7R, but I guess that's not the case. I can't point to any interviews that say otherwise, but I wonder if it's just intended as a description of their roles in FF7R - Part 1, as opposed to the Remake as a whole. I think that would make sense, because, other than Cloud, Tifa is the character that appears in the most chapters in this game, whereas Aerith doesn't really show up until halfway through and even then, she's not in every chapter.

Up until they get to the Shinra building, the game very much feels like a merc going around doing big and small jobs in the slums - of which, Tifa is the 2nd lead. Aerith, on the other hand, though she has less screentime, almost every other line she says has a double meaning and foreshadows the story to come. Also, it's her kidnapping that leads them to "Sephiroth" in the Shinra and the "real" story of FF7.

@Eerie I meant to respond to your post! I was just trying to gather my thoughts because I've already taken up so much space on this page, lol. Another thing about the LTD in the OG vs. Remake, is that the Love Triangle is explicitly mentioned in Aerith's character profile in the OG game manual (at least in the NA version). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Love Triangle is mentioned in any of the official materials this time around or brought up unprompted by the devs. I think people often assume they're taking about Tifa and Aerith's relationship with Cloud when they're really talking about their characters and screentime in general. Other than it being present in the OG, is there any official material that shows that the devs even intend to have a Love Triangle in the Remake?

Really great observation about the attempted handgrab in Ch. 4. She even calls for Cloud the same way that she does when she makes the jump at the pillar. I think the scene when she saves Cloud on top of the Shinra building is another callback to these scenes, only this time their positions are reversed, and they both hold on tightly this time.

These three scenes kind of sum of their relationship as whole: 1) They reach for each other, but are unable to connect. 2) They reach for each other and connect briefly, but are separated again. 3) Cloud is unable to, so Tifa does the reaching on her own, and this time, neither is letting go.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Don't worry, I was feeling that I did kill the conversation haha... I wonder about that. I feel that Aerith's importance... is more than just "heroine" to be honest. First I thought that they wanted to hide Aerith's importance as a heroine so they didn't mention it (pre-release). But it's weird to see that again in the Ultimania. In a way, I feel that Aerith's role is maybe more important than Cloud's himself (as she is Sephiroth's contrary, and even leads the team into the crossroad of destiny). And Tifa has more the traditional role of an heroine, to be beside the hero and help him. Aerith's role, by being tied to the overarching plot, is just more important. It has always been Tifa's role to be beside Cloud, so to be "the heroine", both in support and romantic sense, as JP often conflate (from my observation). So maybe this is why they don't call her a heroine, because she is more than just that.


I mentioned this way back on page 215 of this thread. The interview is included, if you guys want to watch it again.


Some more proof, directly from the video: Inside Final Fantasy VII Remake - Episode 2: Story and Characters:


Clearly said that Tifa is the Heroine on the story. After playing through the game, it is quite evident.

I guess since the game has been released for a few months now we have all had time to digest the content of the game. I also believe that Aerith seems to have a much greater role in the Remake than in the OG.

It is strange though that the Devs introduced Aerith last and said that Aerith has a personal history and a mysterious past that he cannot reveal at the time of the interview. I am thinking that since Aerith is the last character introduced that she has one of the most important role in the game.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yes, I was basing my first assumption on this interview; the fact that she is not called an heroine didn't sit well with me pre-release, and I think a lot of people thought that the devs were just teasing her. Turns out that her role was far greater than what we imagined! The interesting tidbit is that, usually in JP media, and correct me if I got the wrong impression, but "the heroine" also has a romantic role towards the hero. I wonder if them stripping off Aerith of the "heroine" role also has to do with that. But we're veering way too much into the LTD there.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Personally I've often felt that Aerith was not really a part of the party, like she's a bit out of place, or a prolonged guest spot.
I've often felt that while the others are mercenaries, soldiers, barmaids, just people, going on an adventure, that Aerith herself WAS the quest. We're basically her escort mission.

She doesn't really feel like part of the team because she knows more, and is simply different. I notice it when they enter the portal, we have Aerith asking the others to help her, and then we have Cloud and the three party members there to assist him. For some reason Aerith just always felt apart from the others to me, far more like the subject of the game rather than one of the avatars that represent ME as the player.
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
I thought so too when she responded with "huh" when Cloud mentions "it has been 5 years", but on the subsequent bringing up of her having moved to Midgar 5 years ago, and the explicit attempt to change the subject because it reminded her of his 5 years comment I changed my mind. That didn't fit someone who just didn't know how to process something.
Normally, a 5 or 7 years isn't that big of a difference, it's weird to dance around it, I don't see why she'd actively avoid it unless she specifically thought it was weird and didn't want to talk about it.

TBH, I saw Tifa's reaction to Cloud's casual remark of "it's been 5 years" as simple confusion. Then when Cloud dismisses it to immediately ask about speaking to Barret, it seemed to me that Tifa easily allowing it to slide was her thinking that he had misspoken.

On Tifa changing the subject quickly about coming to Midgar, though... she was definitely avoiding that subject, not because of any suspicions about Cloud, but because it's a part of her life that she's still not ready to talk about to anyone.

I also think that her avoidance is because she doesn't like to dwell about how her life had been drastically torn apart 5 years ago. It was a horribly traumatic time for her and thinking about it still hurts, so she avoids it and buries it deep. Even Barret notes it during the Shinra building staircase when he mentions that Tifa can't bear to talk about her parents beyond the fact that they're deceased.

Mind you, I'm saying all this with the notion that Cloud and Tifa had only just been reunited before the game's beginning. My interpretation would definitely be different if it turns out like in the OG where Tifa had found Cloud ~2 months prior and nursed him back to health, and having more time to see the inconsistencies in him.
 
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shersita007

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Hello.

About Remake Episode2 when Nojima only called Tifa, the heroine of the game, while Aerith is referred as the most important character of the game plot. This is kinda tricky, but the way I intérpret it after thinking about it is:

- in all stories narratives, (games, novels, movies, etc) the heroine is the one who stays by the heroe side until the end (or the ending couple)

- Aerith is the most important character for the game narrative plot, but she, is no longer referred as another heroine.

Using the theory of the heroine as the one who ends with the heroe, this would make sense. There can't be 2 heroines, when only one ends by the heroe side.

So, Nojima introduce the first cast: Cloud the heroe of the game followed by Tifa the heroine of the game. These two are going to end together again (this reminds me of Nojima AC Reunión Files 'one thing he was sure of, Cloud and Tifa will be together'). And after, they introduced the rest of game characters that are going to move the game plot narrative, giving Aerith the biggest role on this.

Is tricky, but the description of the game characters roles aren't wrong if you look at it this way.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Hello.

About Remake Episode2 when Nojima only called Tifa, the heroine of the game, while Aerith is referred as the most important character of the game plot. This is kinda tricky, but the way I intérpret it after thinking about it is:

- in all stories narratives, (games, novels, movies, etc) the heroine is the one who stays by the heroe side until the end (or the ending couple)

- Aerith is the most important character for the game narrative plot, but she, is no longer referred as another heroine.

Using the theory of the heroine as the one who ends with the heroe, this would make sense. There can't be 2 heroines, when only one ends by the heroe side.

So, Nojima introduce the first cast: Cloud the heroe of the game followed by Tifa the heroine of the game. These two are going to end together again (this reminds me of Nojima AC Reunión Files 'one thing he was sure of, Cloud and Tifa will be together'). And after, they introduced the rest of game characters that are going to move the game plot narrative, giving Aerith the biggest role on this.

Is tricky, but the description of the game characters roles aren't wrong if you look at it this way.
I think we all agree with the description, it's just that it's surprising that they actually said it, and we wonder whether it's on purpose or not.
If it is on purpose, it makes sense, but it could be a coincidence.
 
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