SPOILERS Split from "Hopes for the remake (story/content)"

[KindOfBlue]

I appreciated them more when Cloud acknowledged that they were lame.

Cloud’s reaction to Tifa going on about water filters was so perfect that I don’t even know if it was meant to be meta or just a happy accident. Of course I couldn’t say no to Tifa’s red puppy eyes and evidently, neither could Cloud.

 

[Ite]

For some of the more lame sidequests, I appreciated them more when Cloud acknowledged that they were lame.

I actually really didn’t. It was like Cloud was mad at me for making him go on the adventure. Like, wtf, game do you want me to play you or not?

@Obsidian Fire well said. Seems like the less fuckey of the two ways forward is smaller and more frequent releases that don’t make a spectacle out of “This Episode’s Arc” but rather get the fuck on with FF7.

Also I’m glad my nerd rage entertains you

 

[looneymoon]

Cloud responding to Chadley's backstory with "cool" was one of my favourite moments.

 

[ultima786]

Cloud responding to Chadley's backstory with "cool" was one of my favourite moments.

Lol cracked me up

 

[LivingLegacy]

The perfect way to end Part 2:

After Aeriths death, the party is back in one of the forgotten capital rooms. A somber Cloud gives his galvanizing monologue about finding Sephiroth and asks the party to join him, which everyone agrees. The screen fades to black.

Next scene: a dramatic close up of Cloud making a serious face. “Aerith, we’ll never forget you....”

“Now let’s get some air boyzzzzz!!!!”

*camera pans out with cloud taking off on a snowboard down a steep, snowy hill. He launches off a ramp at 50mph and does a backflip while snatching a red balloon out of the air and faceplants into a tree.

Screen goes to black - “the unknown journey will continue”

 

[looneymoon]

you forgot the Sephiroth boss fight on a snowboard

 

[Kain424]

I've always felt people are too hard on the snowboarding bit as connected to the game. It's not like Aerith gets stabbed and then the party escapes Sephiroth by half-piping it down a slope. We get the boss fight with the music, the reactions, the send-off. Then we change discs, climb through cold and dark caves, before crossing snowy fields and finding Icicle Inn. From there, we learn of Aerith's past. Without her. Which really drives home her absence. The mood lightens a bit, with the entrance of Elena and the punch dodging part, and then there is the snowboarding. It's arguably the most "video-gamey" section of the game, but it's played as a necessity and performed without aplomb of any real sort. No music or "woo-hoos!" or anything. Merely the cold and the wind. Just my two cents there.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's what I've been arguing for all these years.

 

[Clement Rage]

Fans often want cool stuff, but all fans have to do is come up with cool ideas, not make cohesive stories. If you try to implement those ideas, they're often harder than you expect. But fandoms are also prone to screaming 'BETRAYAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL' if they don't get what they want.

You are never entitled to a particular path or outcome in a story, no matter how much you like it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I've always felt people are too hard on the snowboarding bit as connected to the game. It's not like Aerith gets stabbed and then the party escapes Sephiroth by half-piping it down a slope.

Next scene: a dramatic close up of Cloud making a serious face. “Aerith, we’ll never forget you....”

“Now let’s get some air boyzzzzz!!!!”

Dammit, now I actually want this

but it's played as a necessity and performed without aplomb of any real sort.

It never bothered me much, just seems a bit silly that the only possible way to get to the next area is by snowboarding. Beyond that, I always just thought “eh, it’s a game”, never really thought too much of it, though I imagine collecting balloons, dodging Moogle-shaped snowmen, and pulling off snowboard tricks like Shaun White on top of it all might be jarring for some. It’s really yet another example of what I brought up before about how creators will intend for you to feel one thing, but others will inevitably take something else from it. Is that good? Is that bad? Call me a hippie but I don’t consider it either, it just is.

Fans often want cool stuff, but all fans have to do is come up with cool ideas, not make cohesive stories. If you try to implement those ideas, they're often harder than you expect.

That’s probably why I have such a hard time getting into fanfiction (especially of the LTD variety) or fan projects that try to “fix” somebody else’s work. Whether it’s “this is what FF7R should’ve been”, or “this is what TLOU2 should’ve been” or, to bring in an example from something very close to me, “this is how the Spider-Man movies should’ve been”, most fans’ ideas just read like bad wish-fulfillment fanfiction. Not to say that the creators are exempt from critique but I’ve personally grown out of watching hour-long “analysis” videos from random YouTubers explaining why their ideas would’ve been better and commenters praising those ideas for just playing into exactly what they want.

But fandoms are also prone to screaming 'BETRAYAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL' if they don't get what they want.

You are never entitled to a particular path or outcome in a story, no matter how much you like it.

I think our attachment to the familiar often blinds us from enjoying new experiences. We get so caught up in wanting things to go our way and being uptight about change that we rob ourselves of the opportunity to just be along for the ride and discover something new just as we did in the past when we first fell in love with our favorite stories.

 

[Ite]

I am particularly excited for FFXVI, I’m looking forward to whatever experience they want to throw at me. While I prefer party-based RPGs, I’m ready to enjoy whatever story and game experience they want to give me.

People who are disappointed in the FF7 Remake aren’t fucking ogres and I’m tired of being constantly strawmanned here.

 

[Kain424]

Not even sure where to go with that whole "entitled" thing. That seems like a pretty shallow understanding of the issues some people have.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm kind of just sad the FF7R fits pretty squarely into standard JRPG narrative schlock, with some really uninspired Disney/Marvel-esque flair. I felt the OG really stood out in so many ways in that regard. It is what it is I guess. It just sucks not really feeling part of the "remake zeitgeist", especially as an OG fan :/

 

[Wol]

Not even sure where to go with that whole "entitled" thing. That seems like a pretty shallow understanding of the issues some people have.

Most agree that the game is great overall, just not "FFVII" great, and not without glaring issues. So framing any critic as entitled is weird.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think it was inevitable that FF7R was never going to have the same impact as FF7. The OG’s very much a product of its time as is all art, video games and society as a whole are in a much different place 20+ years later, and I’d venture to guess the devs themselves had no way of predicting the OG would be as big as it was so I wouldn’t expect them to be able to replicate that kind of impact by manufacturing it intentionally. It clearly wasn’t their goal anyways, as they’ve quite plainly reminded everyone that the OG still exists and this isn’t a replacement. So if it’s any consolation to those unhappy with FF7R...the OG isn’t going anywhere? Sadly, I don’t know what the right words are here.

So framing any critic as entitled is weird.

I wouldn’t want to put words in somebody else’s mouth (or...type words in somebody else’s hands?) but I don’t know if that was meant to be a dismissal of all criticism in general or mainly critics who say that FF7R isn’t FF7. Which...well, it isn’t. The devs themselves would agree. I guess everybody’s got their own idea of what FF7R was supposed to be, but that begs the question: are we more qualified than the creators to decide what FF7R is “supposed” to be even with how diverse our opinions are, and is it fair to criticize based on what we think the product should’ve been or should criticism focus on what the product was actually trying to do?

 

[looneymoon]

20 odd years, 5 sequels/prequels, however many novels... things are bound to be expanded and changed for a story that was never meant to have any continuation in the first place. With all this, remake feels less like a retelling/improving of that original structure, and more like a shallow attempt at creating a scenario where years worth of haphazard and ill-thought storytelling that came after the source material can be congruous with each other, when it really wasn't before. All this is done without the careful thought and planning that goes into curated, well-thought out writing. It's just so lazy and unsatisfying and really cheapens the plot going forward.

Like, the last half a page is all about whether or not Aerith knows about the future. All I can really think reading it is that, it's so overly vague that it doesn't matter if she does. The way it's laid out, the devs have free rein to decide what it means after the fact, if they decide to do so at all. That isn't how you lay out a mystery. Well executed mysteries point to a solution laid out by the plot. It's pretty clear that SE either doesn't have a solution, or are attempting to be "overly clever" in obfuscating what the solution is. It makes theorizing essentially pointless other than for short-term engagement. That not only hurts the integrity of the mystery, but also splits investment I personally have with an established character (OG Aeris) from this new character (FF7R Aerith). The more I read about what people are guessing what's going on, the more I feel like I'm not actually engaging with a character I've been waiting to see for so long, as they feel like different people with different motivations. It's disappointing, and rather alienating, to say the least.

Mind you, I'm writing this with the consideration of what Remake is trying to do, and not what I personally think it should have been.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You make this sound like it's some random 3rd Person Shooter for the PS2 that came outta nowhere after a year.

A mystery lays down clues that are able to lead you to the correct answer, but it can also easily misdirect you with extraneous information that will lead you down paths that are wholly unrelated to the main question. AKA red herrings. The solution or truth surely exists but it's never left out in the open and easily followed. Which is what we have now. Considering the Remake's massive amounts of detailed recreation and minutiae inclusion, why would they not have a firm grasp of where they wish to go with the plot, and the elements they've written in right now? Especially when they have gone through the painstaking process of recreating every line of dialogue, interaction, characterization and scene setting from scratch? There's no copy-paste here. That's authorial intentionality that's the total opposite of "lazy." There's a shocking level of organized intentionality that even I underestimated.

However at this point in the Remake, what's even the "mystery" here? Do we even know what it is we're trying to figure out exactly? Aside from just waiting to see what happens? Because we'll easily get that upon the next part/game. Each detail and unanswered anticipation is something that lies beyond the credits of the game, there's no way to decipher that. The one true mystery I only see is Zack and even then it's sorta... Been answered. It's obvious.

As for Aerith's potential experience or awareness of what's next, I'm puzzled why it's such a focus for some fans when in the game, it's clear she simply has knowledge. This knowledge is not even the focus of the plot. Yet. All that we know from witnessing Part 1 of the game is she carries "foreknowledge" of things connected to the planet and the Whispers. Not precognition. Not future sight. But knowledge. It's not actual experience. People are quick to ascribe to her psychic awareness when that's merely player knowledge and experience being transferred onto her. Cloud is a better question but clearly no one cares about him.

Now Sephiroth is the one who carries a wider perspective and maybe even understanding that might give him an advance on the plot, but Aerith's own experience is still firmly rooted in her present. How she has this knowledge is more than likely connected to the Whispers, but that is wholly separate from her. She's not some time traveler.

All that's left as an unknown, is what will happen next, which is precisely what we'll find out once the next game comes out. I'm not sure what's so unresolved other than that. The story is simply unfolding itself.

 

[Wol]

20 odd years, 5 sequels/prequels, however many novels... things are bound to be expanded and changed for a story that was never meant to have any continuation in the first place. With all this, remake feels less like a retelling/improving of that original structure, and more like a shallow attempt at creating a scenario where years worth of haphazard and ill-thought storytelling that came after the source material can be congruous with each other, when it really wasn't before. All this is done without the careful thought and planning that goes into curated, well-thought out writing. It's just so lazy and unsatisfying and really cheapens the plot going forward.

Like, the last half a page is all about whether or not Aerith knows about the future. All I can really think reading it is that, it's so overly vague that it doesn't matter if she does. The way it's laid out, the devs have free rein to decide what it means after the fact, if they decide to do so at all. That isn't how you lay out a mystery. Well executed mysteries point to a solution laid out by the plot. It's pretty clear that SE either doesn't have a solution, or are attempting to be "overly clever" in obfuscating what the solution is. It makes theorizing essentially pointless other than for short-term engagement. That not only hurts the integrity of the mystery, but also splits investment I personally have with an established character (OG Aeris) from this new character (FF7R Aerith). The more I read about what people are guessing what's going on, the more I feel like I'm not actually engaging with a character I've been waiting to see for so long, as they feel like different people with different motivations. It's disappointing, and rather alienating, to say the least.

Mind you, I'm writing this with the consideration of what Remake is trying to do, and not what I personally think it should have been.

Exactly, the way is set up is: there are no rules, we can just ramdonly add bullshit to justify other bullshit moving forward.

Its so blatantly KHs it hurts.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Mind you, I'm writing this with the consideration of what Remake is trying to do, and not what I personally think it should have been.

By that metric, didn’t the game do it’s job? I don’t think there’s much of a point to a mystery if you can easily predict where it’s going before the story’s proper resolution.

there are no rules, we can just ramdonly add bullshit to justify other bullshit moving forward.

Way I see it, this puts them much closer to the level of freedom they had in 1997. Back then, it was an original story bound only by the rules of their imagination. They had just as much free reign to add as much BS as they wanted back then and I’d go as far as saying they did just that (not that it’s a bad thing, it’s just interesting how much the OG gets a pass for similarly outlandish plot devices).

The nature of the remake inherently binds them to the framework of the OG and even after everything they’ve added, they still seem to intend to follow the OG only now with uncertainty on how much the OG story is followed. Those are “the rules”, if such a concept even applies to something like this. I think some fans take the interviews at face value when they say the devs are contradicting themselves, when devs are in a position to do both something familiar and something original at the same time (whether or not that “something original” is good is another conversation). Narratively, it’s the closest thing possible to experiencing a new story the way that first time OG players did. And as for those who just want the remake without the extra stuff? The remake is still there, though I do concede your mileage may vary on how much of a remake it is. Pretty much everything I expected to see remade was remade, albeit sometimes better than the OG and sometimes not as good. Overall, I got what I wanted.

Where the plot ghosts necessary for this narrative freedom? No. They could’ve done the changes without an in-universe explanation. But would that make it better, or would it raise even more questions than answers? I don’t know. Could all of this be avoided if they just stuck to the original story? Of course, but then remake wouldn’t exist either. They’ve done the OG already, and the devs more than happy to send you to that game even now. I dunno, the OG and compilation is pretty batshit insane itself so I really wasn’t bothered by all the whisper stuff. Maybe I will be when all is said and done, who knows?

 

[Wol]

By that metric, didn’t the game do it’s job? I don’t think there’s much of a point to a mystery if you can easily predict where it’s going before the story’s proper resolution.


Way I see it, this puts them much closer to the level of freedom they had in 1997. Back then, it was an original story bound only by the rules of their imagination. They had just as much free reign to add as much BS as they wanted back then and I’d go as far as saying they did just that (not that it’s a bad thing, it’s just interesting how much the OG gets a pass for similarly outlandish plot devices).

The nature of the remake inherently binds them to the framework of the OG and even after everything they’ve added, they still seem to intend to follow the OG only now with uncertainty on how much the OG story is followed. Those are “the rules”, if such a concept even applies to something like this. I think some fans take the interviews at face value when they say the devs are contradicting themselves, when devs are in a position to do both something familiar and something original at the same time (whether or not that “something original” is good is another conversation). Narratively, it’s the closest thing possible to experiencing a new story the way that first time OG players did. And as for those who just want the remake without the extra stuff? The remake is still there, though I do concede your mileage may vary on how much of a remake it is. Pretty much everything I expected to see remade was remade, albeit sometimes better than the OG and sometimes not as good. Overall, I got what I wanted.

Where the plot ghosts necessary for this narrative freedom? No. They could’ve done the changes without an in-universe explanation. But would that make it better, or would it raise even more questions than answers? I don’t know. Could all of this be avoided if they just stuck to the original story? Of course, but then remake wouldn’t exist either. They’ve done the OG already, and the devs more than happy to send you to that game even now. I dunno, the OG and compilation is pretty batshit insane itself so I really wasn’t bothered by all the whisper stuff. Maybe I will be when all is said and done, who knows?

Changing is not the problem here, it was the type of change and the execution of said change that made the final parts taste like fanfiction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only thing I'll contest is that it's without rules or liable to just go "anywhere."

I don't think that's the case at all.

There's a thread of intentionality here that even I didn't think they were going for. The debate and analysis over Stamp that happened after beating the game is a perfect example of that. @The Twilight Mexican , myself and others debated and analyzed the ending and meaning of Stamp, the final scene with Zack and just what that image of a different Stamp meant, and I was pretty certain it was just a fleeting reference to Zack as a puppy on a bag of chips to dramatically callback Zack's character.

But as he illustrated it was much deeper than that. The fact they made sure every single illustration of that fucking dog was consistent, even in the single scene of chips that existed outside of the ending, reflects an internal and cohesive trailing of breadcrumbs to reach a single strict conclusion. And @The Twilight Mexican (and others who agreed with him of course) reached it based on that evidence. There was a trail of evidence and intentionality that didn't just get ripped out of their asses.

As for me, I simply didn't want to believe that was what they were going for But in the end, that's what it was.

Time travel isn't even out of the realm for FFVII's lore of Spirit Energy and Lifestream either. The mechanics of spirit energy enjoin with time travel quite easily and with precedent. Sakaguchi literally did that very concept in FFIX with Memoria and the Crystal World. The fact that spirits, memories, and consciousness can transcend past and present, even literally crossing time and space wasn't out of left field. All the concepts of spirit energy from FFVII, FFIX, FFX, and The Spirits Within have been explored to their fullest in the FFVII series thus far. The only one remaining up to til now was time-space travel. And here we are.

They're not just throwing whatever at the wall and seeing what sticks. Or building the lore as they go along like with Kingdom Hearts which was new and basically threading its lore with each new entry. There's a metaphysical fantasy construct that has existed with rules they are sticking to. There's an intentionality here that's undeniable.

 

[cold_spirit]

Like, the last half a page is all about whether or not Aerith knows about the future. All I can really think reading it is that, it's so overly vague that it doesn't matter if she does. The way it's laid out, the devs have free rein to decide what it means after the fact, if they decide to do so at all. That isn't how you lay out a mystery. Well executed mysteries point to a solution laid out by the plot. It's pretty clear that SE either doesn't have a solution, or are attempting to be "overly clever" in obfuscating what the solution is. It makes theorizing essentially pointless other than for short-term engagement. That not only hurts the integrity of the mystery, but also splits investment I personally have with an established character (OG Aeris) from this new character (FF7R Aerith). The more I read about what people are guessing what's going on, the more I feel like I'm not actually engaging with a character I've been waiting to see for so long, as they feel like different people with different motivations. It's disappointing, and rather alienating, to say the least.

I feel like if the mystery was guessable after the first title in a multipart series, then it'd be a pretty pathetic mystery.

On the topic of whether any of this planned out, I like to refer to this quote from Nojima on the Seven Seconds till the End scene:

"Actually, the lines that Sephiroth said in that scene were written during the beginning stages of production where we did not know the exact placement of when they'd be delivered."

Source (it's part 6 of the tweet thread, sorry I couldn't figure out how to link directly to the tweet!)

That scene, where a supposedly new Sephiroth asks Cloud to defy destiny and gives Cloud insight into the future, was written early in development. That tells me that Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase do have a plan, whether we like it or not.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Changing is not the problem here, it was the type of change and the execution of said change that made the final parts taste like fanfiction.

Then what “type” of change or what “execution” of the change would’ve been acceptable? Because I would think outright dismissing the concept altogether is probably where the perception of some detractors being “purists” comes from

 

[looneymoon]

"Easily predictable" isn't the point behind writing structure around a mystery. How was that parsed from what I wrote?

The problem is that it's lightly strung together nonsense in order to have a one-up on the audience. This works in the sense that it feed its own hype cycle for the next installment, and makes an easy justification as to why the lore doesn't agree with each other, but it's an incredibly shallow and lazy way to write that kind of scenario. People don't bring up Kingdom Hearts for no reason - it has all the same qualities which made the story of those games an absolute hot mess.

 

[Wol]

Then what “type” of change or what “execution” of the change would’ve been acceptable? Because I would think outright dismissing the concept altogether is probably where the perception of some detractors being “purists” comes from

A change that doesn't feel dissonant with the game's setting, that doesn't smell like overconvoluted KH plot elements. I mean, to me it felt dissonant and disjointed even inside VIIR, let alone the original.

But the worse is the execution, where a lot of non-explained complex stuff happens on screen in like a hour, where you're just like: looks cool but what the hell aka style over substance. It didn't feel like a natural progression for the story, to me it felt forced and like a vapid "gotcha" surprise. They created an artificial spectacle, instead of a properly crafted finale intelligently build-up.