SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I dunno if it’s to mean Cloud never loved her necessarily, but perhaps that the foundation of that love is a false assumption of identity.

In French, the translation is interesting because Aerith says that his feelings are an illusion, even if he believes it.


"Even if you believe they are real, they're an illusion"

To me, that's clearly a reference to his identity troubles, and what he feels right now isn't what he would feel if he were the real Cloud. It is exactly what she tells him, and it's really different from her GS date in the OG, even if it's a reminder of the identity crisis that Cloud goes through in both scenes. In her GS date she pursues him, in this scene, she pushes him away. That's why I wonder how her GS date will look like - but I'm sorry, if it's still there, I'll definitely get Tifa's. Tifa got robbed of her date with Cloud :hm:

The "Cloud's resolution" is driving me nuts tbh. It's not. He was already resolved to save her. Those "resolutions" scenes aren't resolutions scenes. They're hidden scenes where one character wants to share something with Cloud, to tell him something. Barret wanted to open up about Avalanche and they became closer. Tifa needed a shoulder to cry on because she's lost her life again, and they became closer. Aerith wanted to tell him to not fall in love with her - and their relationship took a step back after this. That's also why I'm intrigued by how they're going to become closer in the next game. And in all honestly, if we don't get a GS date system (big IF there) - which we might because this was the GS mechanism - then I'd bet on Tifa's date instead because Cloud and her need to bring their relationship a step forward, and their scene wasn't reminiscent at all of their GS date.

Also I should state that Brianna had to say "Zack" for the lip-syncing technology they're using over at SE. So that the character could form the word and we could read it on Aerith's lips. To me, Zack will have a larger role in that we might see more flashbacks of him. But in their reality anyway, he's dead. Aerith's face and lines told me about this at the end of Remake. This reminds me however that the French translation of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania kind of describes her love for Cloud as a rebound - at least at first. She fell for him because he had some Zack in him. I'd say it's less true since BC/CC where Zack's personality was fleshed out, but it was the idea anyway behind Aerith falling for Cloud. And then she tried to see the real Cloud but couldn't. And to me that's where it's all weird because, who does Aerith love? It's not the real Cloud, she's never met him. And she knew that the Cloud she knew had identity troubles. So let's say if in the Remake she knows that, wouldn't she guard herself from him? because yes, she does love "Cloud", but to me it's obscure whom she does love.

By contrast, one of the common complaints levied at the Compilation is how out-of-character some of our leads felt across instalments: Aerith in Crisis Core, and Cloud in Advent Children.

To be very fair to those characters, Aerith in CC was 15, compared to her 22 years old in FFVII. She was leagues *younger*, it's absolutely normal that she wasn't how she was in FFVIIOG. As for Cloud in AC/C, terrible depression and on the edge of dying, it'd be bizarre if he was himself - though I do prefer him as himself personally!

 

[eleamaya]

By contrast, one of the common complaints levied at the Compilation is how out-of-character some of our leads felt across instalments: Aerith in Crisis Core, and Cloud in Advent Children.

Do you refer to how OOC CC!Aerith and AC!Cloud are in fanfiction? IMO, those who think Aerith is OOC in Crisis Core are only Clerith hardcore.
Aerith was 16-17 in CC. But now that Remake exists, it portrays her CC depictions too. She just turns more confident here, not as shy as CC. But the rests are the same traits.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Do you refer to how OOC CC!Aerith and AC!Cloud are in fanfiction? IMO, those who think Aerith is OOC in Crisis Core are only Clerith hardcore.
Aerith was 16-17 in CC. But now that Remake exists, it portrays her CC depictions too. She just turns more confident here, not as shy as CC. But the rests are the same traits.

To be honest, I try not to hold fiction I have the luxury of enjoying for free to the same standard as fiction I actually pay for. But I agree that even the better writers I’ve enjoyed can at times be a bit liberal with FFVII’s characters. It’s absolutely not for everyone, but there’s some better prose to be found on Ao3 than in the sparse sketches in On the Way to a Smile, at least.

I’ll concede that it’s been a good ten years since I last played Crisis Core, so I have allowed the opinions of others to colour my assessment of Aerith in that game - my sincerest apologies for cribbing from the Clerith hardcore. I am hoping to do a replay in the next year or so, but I do remember finding Aerith to be a little unremarkable in CC - a far cry from the energy she has in the OG and Remake. Did Aerith have an arc in Crisis Core?

I won’t concede on Cloud’s characterisation post-OG, however. I’m sure this argument is well-trodden by this point, but in the OG after the Lifestream, Cloud becomes more vulnerable and goofy, and has shed his gruff, delusional persona. Advent Children in isolation does a terrible job of explaining his regression from true-Cloud to depression-Cloud. AC begins in media res and a lot of essential detail about Cloud is left outside of the film. We should be able to empathise with Cloud and root for his betterment, but there’s just not a whole lot to like about him in AC. The man ghosted his own family. Yikes. I’m not saying I begrudge this Cloud for his depression and his pain - there is an interesting story to be told via such a premise, but Advent Children was absolutely not a successful way of exploring those ideas and this version of Cloud. Characterisation needs to be coherent and consistent. The Remake does a great job of showing SOLDIER-Cloud soften through his misadventures in Midgar. But instead of true-Cloud or even SOLDIER-Cloud, we had to suffer moody-Cloud throughout the 00s. Apart from baby-Cloud in CC - he was a good boy.

 

[Eerie]

I remember that I hated AC!Cloud, but found ACC!Cloud way more likeable since we could understand his motive and see more of himself. We have to remember that at first, AC was a little movie to give us more Cloud, but it hadn't had any plot or whatsoever, but when it was met with such hype during a presentation, they decided to expand on it. And I think it shows because AC is a terrible movie with a terrible characterisation. But ACC made it better, seriously. I love it when he talks to Marlene. But yes, we're missing context and IMHO, CoT and CoD should have made it into this movie, at least partly. To me, ACC in Cloud's "On the Way to a Smile" media. It resolves his and Tifa's story, and the 2 stories are mirrors to each other.

 

[KindOfBlue]

In French, the translation is interesting because Aerith says that his feelings are an illusion, even if he believes it.

I’ve seen some say the Japanese says “it’s useless” while others say “it’s in your head”, not sure which is more accurate but I get two very different feelings from both translations

it's really different from her GS date in the OG, even if it's a reminder of the identity crisis that Cloud goes through in both scenes. In her GS date she pursues him, in this scene, she pushes him away.

Good point. I got the sense in the OG that even if you take the romance angle out, she still wants the real Cloud to emerge for the sake of his own well-being. The remake seems to be recontextualizing a lot of what we thought we knew, so while the romantic undertones will probably still be there, I think it’s reasonable that Aerith would want to meet the real Cloud seeing as she was robbed of the chance to do so already.

She’s probably aware that a romantic pursuit would be fruitless this time, unlike the OG where she seemed to have been intending to return, but she still cares enough to want to meet the real him at least once. So it’s a way to still have essentially the same conversation, but now with a new layer that the OG didn’t have.

The "Cloud's resolution" is driving me nuts tbh. It's not. He was already resolved to save her. Those "resolutions" scenes aren't resolutions scenes.

I don’t know how the scenes are described in Japanese but I took the use of “resolution” to be referring to the act of resolving something, as in “this scene is the answer to the choices you made in-game.”

Not that people are wrong in pointing out that Cloud does indeed resolve, as in “to be determined to do something”, to save Aerith. But I don’t know if that’s why the word “resolution” was used, and I’m not sure why calling it “Cloud’s resolution” grants it some sort of importance above the other scenes especially when there’s an equal chance of getting Tifa’s scene. Poor Barret though, he had such a great scene but an absurdly low number of people got it in their playthroughs.

As much as I love the OG and remake, the idea of relegating important relationship development moments to optional scenes really rubs me the wrong way. I think the dress options were enough of a reward, so I would’ve found a way to make as many optional scenes non-optional as possible.

then I'd bet on Tifa's date instead because Cloud and her need to bring their relationship a step forward, and their scene wasn't reminiscent at all of their GS date.

If they were to pick one date, based on the OG I would guess they’d go with Aerith but I don’t think they’ll even do that. My guess is no matter how many options there are, Tifa and Aerith will both be equally obtainable. I’d be surprised if they went as far as making Tifa the only option but because of how memorable the date is, I think they’ll want to have fun with other characters too.

 

[Eerie]

I don’t know how the scenes are described in Japanese but I took the use of “resolution” to be referring to the act of resolving something, as in “this scene is the answer to the choices you made in-game.”

I think that indeed, it's the way it should've been understood.

Not that people are wrong in pointing out that Cloud does indeed resolve, as in “to be determined to do something”, to save Aerith. But I don’t know if that’s why the word “resolution” was used, and I’m not sure why calling it “Cloud’s resolution” grants it some sort of importance above the other scenes especially when there’s an equal chance of getting Tifa’s scene. Poor Barret though, he had such a great scene but an absurdly low number of people got it in their playthroughs.

The Ultimania is very clear that it's about the other character wanting to share something with Cloud, so by saying it's Cloud's resolution, they put it above the others by saying it's the only one that makes sense and the only one that shows what Cloud wants - no matter that only Tifa got true Cloud to show up.

Barret's difficult to get because you have to do no side quest, and most people will do the side quests so it's dumb down to who you awake in the sewers. And the game very much want you to awake Tifa, as she gets a bonus scene there - unlike Aerith - and the game's continuity acts as if you chose Tifa anyway (since it's the talk with Cloud that reassures her that Aerith is no spy).

As much as I love the OG and remake, the idea of relegating important relationship development moments to optional scenes really rubs me the wrong way. I think the dress options were enough of a reward, so I would’ve found a way to make as many optional scenes non-optional as possible.

I think Remake at least gets it better because it acts as if the three scenes happen during the night - there is not one canon, all 3 scenes are referenced in game after that. OG though? Good luck lol. Not that any of the dates is referenced after that anyway. And from memory, Barret's really silly in the OG.

If they were to pick one date, based on the OG I would guess they’d go with Aerith but I don’t think they’ll even do that. My guess is no matter how many options there are, Tifa and Aerith will both be equally obtainable. I’d be surprised if they went as far as making Tifa the only option but because of how memorable the date is, I think they’ll want to have fun with other characters too.

I said IF there is no option for the GS date - which is a big, big IF! However, while I agree that based on the OG it would be Aerith, I still think that based on Remake it would be Tifa. Reasons ahead:
For Aerith:
- Aerith told Cloud to not fall in love with her - and their relationship took a step back
- Aerith and Cloud already had their date, as per Aerith said
- Aerith's scene was a reminder of her own GS date in the OG, alluding to Cloud's identity crisis
These three points alone are making me consider if they're doing the GS date, although I do know that they will, I think they have an escape if they don't want to. But now, for Tifa:
- Tifa and Cloud didn't get their date
- Tifa's scene wasn't reminiscent at all of her GS date
- Tifa needs to get a step forward and show that she's in love with Cloud - if not for Cloud, at least for the player
- If there is only one pair that gets the GS date, then cloti makes more sense since it's the canon route and Remake paved the way for them to get such a scene
Again, that's WHY I think it would go IF there is no GS date system, but I do think that there will be a GS date system. I wonder just how much they'll have to add in because after Midgar and before the GS date, there is simply no romance in the OG. At all. That would mean adding new side quests with the girls (Costa del Sol maybe?). All the while advancing the main quest - the flashback in Kalm and Wutai and Dyne etc. is making me question when will that happen and won't the paddle be too much? We still have 3 new playable characters to meet - there was a reason romance took a stepback at that point, because there were a lot of things to discover and do. I worry a lot about this because it made sense for them to have side quests in Midgar, in their established sectors so we could discover the sectors with them, but now that we're out of Midgar? I don't know how they'll do it, honestly.

 

[Phantasia]

I don't want to derail too much on the topic, but forget about Cloud, what I want is a date between Aerith and Tifa. There, I said it...

(Tifa mentioned in one of the novels that calling Aerith friend wouldn't do her justice, and that's what I want to see on my screen, women supporting each other. Been honest, to me they both seemed to not have a really close friend, and I mean a CLOSE friend, a confidant, someone you can trust without reservation. They need it.)

 

[KindOfBlue]

no matter that only Tifa got true Cloud to show up.

Not that I disagree about Tifa being the one who brings out true Cloud, but did the ultimania actually say that’s what’s happening in this scene? I know Cloud speaks more naturally and relaxed around Tifa but I don’t know if I can say it’s “true Cloud” yet when he doesn’t emerge until the Lifestream scene

and the game's continuity acts as if you chose Tifa anyway (since it's the talk with Cloud that reassures her that Aerith is no spy).

I mean yeah, the dialogue with Tifa in the sewers does have more to offer than with Aerith but I really don’t read too heavily into those kinds of things. Reminds me of the argument that Aerith’s resolution is canon because it’s in the credits, stuff like that is too circumstantial for me to take too seriously.

there is not one canon, all 3 scenes are referenced in game after that

That’s what I mean though, if they’re all canon just show them all! I think the devs wanted the game to have multiple playthroughs but I don’t think casual fans might even realize there’s different scenes unless they’re told. Of course I was happy to get the Tifa scene but having to look up the others (even though it took no effort at all), kind of bummed me out knowing some players may not see all of these great character building scenes.

- If there is only one pair that gets the GS date, then cloti makes more sense since it's the canon route and Remake paved the way for them to get such a scene

Thing is, the Cloud and Tifa romance is typically treated with a lot more subtly than the Cloud and Aerith romance because the more obvious romance actually leads to death while the less obvious one turns out to be the one that prevails in the end.

Though I think the romance is treated pretty evenly in the remake, I think they purposefully avoided making the Tifa romance TOO obvious as it all builds up to the reveal in the Lifestream. The Aerith romance throws a lot of in-your-face idealized tropes at the audience and that’s part of the appeal of it until that illusion is shattered by what happens in the story.

I worry a lot about this because it made sense for them to have side quests in Midgar, in their established sectors so we could discover the sectors with them, but now that we're out of Midgar? I don't know how they'll do it, honestly.

If it were me, I’d design the levels so that the player can choose who to have in the party for sidequests and the more you complete with them, the higher the affection value goes. Aerith and Tifa would probably both be more likely to get than the others by default, but maybe only using Aerith/Tifa when the main quests make you use them would make it easier to get a date with Barret for example.

Also the remake did a pretty good job of adding shippy moments in scenes that weren’t previously like that in the OG so I’m sure these masters of fanservice will find plenty of opportunities to throw those in there.

 

[Eerie]

I don't want to derail too much on the topic, but forget about Cloud, what I want is a date between Aerith and Tifa. There, I said it...

We can still get it, I'm hoping for a Costa del Sol shopping :')

Not that I disagree about Tifa being the one who brings out true Cloud, but did the ultimania actually say that’s what’s happening in this scene? I know Cloud speaks more naturally and relaxed around Tifa but I don’t know if I can say it’s “true Cloud” yet when he doesn’t emerge until the Lifestream scene

Yes, this was another quote - in this scene specifically, true Cloud does show up, they've stated as much. I'd even go further and say that when you see the close up on his face, it's not hesitation that he's showing, but fight - he's fighting to take back control of his body to console Tifa himself.

Thing is, the Cloud and Tifa romance is typically treated with a lot more subtly than the Cloud and Aerith romance because the more obvious romance actually leads to death while the less obvious one turns out to be the one that prevails in the end.

I would have agreed with you pre-Remake, but boy, Remake is anything but subtle with CloTi. That's what Nojima implied, I guess, when he said that a lot of things were going to leave less to imagination - because of the acting and voice acting, you can't miss Cloud and Tifa interacting.

Though I think the romance is treated pretty evenly in the remake

I'm going to have to disagree with this, I don't think cloti and clerith were even in Remake. By expanding Aerith's role against Sephiroth, they actually took off a lot of clerith scenes - scenes that were iconic to the pair may I add - in order to not destabilise the subtle balance between her and Tifa. Meanwhile, they gave cloti a looooooooot of scenes. And gave a looooooooooot of zerith shade to most of the clerith scenes. Think about it, but the day she spends in sector 5 with Cloud is basically what she wanted to do with Zack once he'd return. Ouch.

They also have been very careful to not give Aerith the "heroine" role, as in, the one who supports the hero, and only gave that title to Tifa. That's pretty significant - and note that I do think that Aerith's role is way bigger than both Cloud and Tifa's in Remake. She's a bit like the leading role to me, holding a lot of cards, not showing them lightly, yet enticing the party to follow her.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yes, this was another quote - in this scene specifically, true Cloud does show up, they've stated as much.

It’s just I don’t remember the quote specifically about real Cloud showing up during the scene, I remember the quote about him watching Barret comfort Tifa and imitating him

Remake is anything but subtle with CloTi.

Well, subtle compared to Cloud and Aerith, I mean. It lacks a lot of the glitz and glamour, intentionally so, as it’s a lot more grounded and realistic for the most part. I don’t remember the Nojima quote applying specifically to the romance but I would hope they do end up leaving less room for people to pretend there isn’t something going on (though there always will be, let’s be honest).

they actually took off a lot of clerith scenes - scenes that were iconic to the pair may I add - in order to not destabilise the subtle balance between her and Tifa. Meanwhile, they gave cloti a looooooooot of scenes. And gave a looooooooooot of zerith shade to most of the clerith scenes. Think about it, but the day she spends in sector 5 with Cloud is basically what she wanted to do with Zack once he'd return. Ouch.

They did add quite a few scenes for Cloud and Aerith that weren’t in the OG too though, to be fair. I agree with Zack underlining a lot of the time Cloud and Aerith spend together but I really need to see where they go with Zack before I can commit to that idea.

Not that Cloud and Tifa didn’t have a lot of scenes, but that they carefully made sure their feelings for each other aren’t made immediately obvious. Kinda ruins the surprise for later on if you lay it on too thick, though they at least improved on the OG by giving them more scenes together by comparison.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I believe it’s at this point where the K word would get brought up but probably best to avoid that can of worms. Not that it would matter anyways, Cloud strikes me as the type of guy who’s too socially inept to give himself a relationship label. The poor guy didn’t even know either girl liked him (at least, until the Lifestream).

Well, the K word never shows up from Cloud towards Aerith, only vice versa. In any case, my point is more about applying consistent standards of evidence, assuming Cloud would probably be attracted to both women and then seeing what the preponderance of the evidence says about the nature of that attraction and their greater relationships.

Sure, two people could share a home, sleep in separate beds, raise children together, and still have feelings for each other without actually being “officially” a couple (I dunno how the Japanese would view such a living arrangement). I just don’t know if there ever needed to be a conversation where Cloud and Tifa adopt official labels if he already tells her he “has” her now, she says he “always had” her, and he says what he means is “different”.

I mean, Zack and Aerith was a thing, then it ended. Cloud and Aerith was a thing in its own right, then it ended. Cloud and Tifa is a thing that’ll end eventually, as all things do. Except Cloud x Marle. That shit is eternal.

Marle came from a whole different game series to be with Cloud. And she probably had to detour through Xenogears to do it!

We can still get it, I'm hoping for a Costa del Sol shopping :')
I'm going to have to disagree with this, I don't think cloti and clerith were even in Remake. By expanding Aerith's role against Sephiroth, they actually took off a lot of clerith scenes - scenes that were iconic to the pair may I add - in order to not destabilise the subtle balance between her and Tifa. Meanwhile, they gave cloti a looooooooot of scenes. And gave a looooooooooot of zerith shade to most of the clerith scenes. Think about it, but the day she spends in sector 5 with Cloud is basically what she wanted to do with Zack once he'd return. Ouch.

Yeah, Remake Aerith is dragging Zack around harder than AC/C Cloud was dragging him and Aerith around.

They also have been very careful to not give Aerith the "heroine" role, as in, the one who supports the hero, and only gave that title to Tifa. That's pretty significant - and note that I do think that Aerith's role is way bigger than both Cloud and Tifa's in Remake. She's a bit like the leading role to me, holding a lot of cards, not showing them lightly, yet enticing the party to follow her.

Once the two meet, Aerith almost exclusively begins to support and encourage Tifa. She infodumps with the rest of the party, but does stuff to bolster and reassure Tifa, and then there's the look she has when she sees the flower.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

but that they carefully made sure their feelings for each other aren’t made immediately obvious

If I'm honest, to me that's really not the case for the remake, nothing of what we see between Cloud and Tifa in that game is subtle anymore lol
Just comparing it to the original, it's crazy to see how much the devs turned up the C/T angle. I mean it was such a drastic change to before that people started wonder if Tifa is gonna die this time since it seemed almost fishy in how much the game kept pushing them.
Before this game you could honestly argue that Cloud didn't show a romantic interest in Tifa before the lifestream scene, with the remake that theory is totally debunked.

 

[eleamaya]

I’ll concede that it’s been a good ten years since I last played Crisis Core, so I have allowed the opinions of others to colour my assessment of Aerith in that game - my sincerest apologies for cribbing from the Clerith hardcore. I am hoping to do a replay in the next year or so, but I do remember finding Aerith to be a little unremarkable in CC - a far cry from the energy she has in the OG and Remake. Did Aerith have an arc in Crisis Core?

Nope. Aerith is no more than Zack's love interest in CC. But through that part, we get to know about her more.

Her profile in CC Ultimania actually states she's a cheerful girl and it hides all of the tragedy and sadness behind (locked in Shinra, losing mother, not having friends)... and this doesn't change in OG/Remake when she interacts with Cloud while hiding the pain of losing Zack. But OG may fail to show how it's all just a mask. She only expressed being alone in Cosmo Canyon because she's the last of her kind.

In Remake, we get to see how lonely she is as she has no childhood friend. In the "Investigation Unit" novella, you also see how she's treated in Shinra.... a mom harshly accused her of killing her son just because she drew a Promise Land Shinra used! She dunno what to do with her Cetra ability, she values freedom but she's too scared. With all of those backstories, Zack came into her life. In CC Ultimania, he's described as the one who opens her new world and reflects freedom with the chaste romantic love they share. Nojima also gave a statement in CC Ultimania that "I wanted to entwine Aerith’s traits in FFVII to Zack as much as I can." And the result we see in OG/Remake is her being more confident and braver.... she has the same energy Zack has. And finally, she's getting stronger around Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc that she could use her power to help them and fight, she now has friends who will be there for her. She even opens up to the group that she used to cry a lot in CH17.... and this one was never in OG that people may get her character wrong. I mean, in OG version of this scene, she even flirted with Cloud.

But speaking of OG!Aerith, idk how much Nojima's input since he joined the development in the middle. Kitase was also the scriptwriter and he's the one who loves the concept of Hero wavering between two heroines. After Nojima expanded her character and backstory through BC, AC, CC; then Aerith is portrayed slightly differently in Remake.

 

[KindOfBlue]

assuming Cloud would probably be attracted to both women and then seeing what the preponderance of the evidence says

And I guess that’s where it gets tricky because quantifying something like this isn’t always so cut and dry and it’s unlikely the devs would definitively address whether or not Cloud likes one woman more than the other unless they felt it necessary to the story.

It’s an interesting point you make about applying consistent standards though, you’d think a lot more arguments would fall apart if the same standards were applied across both ships especially in regards to how info from the ultimanias is used.

Just comparing it to the original, it's crazy to see how much the devs turned up the C/T angle. I mean it was such a drastic change to before that people started wonder if Tifa is gonna die this time since it seemed almost fishy in how much the game kept pushing them.

Well, we already know where this is all going (maybe...) so naturally it’ll be more obvious to us. To be fair though, ask anybody what couple they think is being pushed and chances are they’ll just go with whoever they prefer.

Looking at it without knowledge of the OG though, we’re not at that point where we really know what’s going on with Cloud in general let alone with romance so it makes sense that they don’t just spell out Cloud’s feelings for Tifa because it’s a literal spoiler from arguably the most important scene in the story.

For as much as people hype up the romance, it’s interesting how little the word “love” is actually used throughout the series and in one of the most striking instances, Aerith tells Cloud not to fall in love with her. Even some OG players might look at that scene and not read between the lines because they heard “love” and blocked out everything else, though I wouldn’t say it’s wrong to believe Cloud is falling for Aerith (again, depending on where they go with the “it’s not real” thing) but that it’s not the whole picture.

Also, I think the speculation of Tifa dying has less to do with how her and Cloud are shown romantically and more to do with the idea of changing the future. Killing Tifa instead of Aerith seems like an obvious route to take if we’re talking shock value (though it’d be a very hard sell to pull off without cheapening both Aerith’s death and the Lifestream scene, but only a small part of me thinks they might go there anyways).

 

[Edley]

IDK about Tifa dying, as it requires some plot/continuity gymnastics I'd rather not speculate on. Technically, she can die and still help heal Cloud's mind in the lifestream, but if messes with everything else and it feels too close to what happened in FFXV. If they're really gonna go throwing the plot in a salad shooter the one to kill halfway through is Cloud.

Someone was talking about translations earlier, I thought this was a good example:

Spoiler

The OG eng version makes it seem like Tifa (or at least Tifa's group) was responsible for Cloud not being friends with her group.



New threat (or the beacause translation) which is a PC mod and retranslation project changes the pronoun to more explicitly exclude Tifa from the statement. This is echoed in remake where Cloud's flashback where little Tifa calls out to Cloud to come play and scolds him for ignoring her. I'd love to see other retranslations that change context from OG, especially where those tricky pronouns are concerned.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think another thing that may not be clear (whether it’s the group that didn’t let Cloud in or Tifa specifically) is what does he mean by “never let me in the group”? Does he mean to say that the group intentionally left him out or that the group simply just never reached out to him? Maybe Tifa wanted him to join but the others didn’t? Maybe they just didn’t think much about what they were doing?

I wonder if that flashback in the first chapter of the remake takes place after Cloud and Tifa fall off the mountain, so maybe Cloud is ignoring Tifa because her father told him to stay away from her.

 

[eleamaya]

Not mine, but well-written dissertation once you clik the "keep reading" lol. Check it out!
https://insanehobbit.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F641149944268488706

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, @insanehobbit posted this in the Cloti thread and I actually had time to kill so I read through all of it, there’s some pretty interesting stuff worth discussing but I honestly don’t know where to start lol overall though, I liked it

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not mine, but well-written dissertation once you clik the "keep reading" lol. Check it out!
https://insanehobbit.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F641149944268488706

Ridiculously long but immediately familiar, sort of like someone else was having my exact same thoughts about all this. They even used the phrase illusion of choice!

 

[KindOfBlue]

illusion of choice!

Y’know I have to wonder if the developers specifically set out to create an illusion of choice regarding the relationships or if it just happened to work out that way in the overall story but either way, it’s a pretty clever storytelling device

 

[Eerie]

Given that the "choices" concerning Cloud's feelings stop after the Lifestream, we can be sure that it was deliberate storytelling. Clever for its era, but it does feel that they will give less choices over this to the players now, especially considering Nojima's quote about having to write precisely for precise graphics that leave less options to imagination.

Also @Ryushikaze if you haven't, you should read @insanehobbit's posts in the FC, I'm sure you'd enjoy them immensely. It's her posts that made me sure that the devs are out for cloti - those about filmmaking are an absolute treat too, and show how the devs work. It's absolutely fascinating to read, and to understand how they convey their messages.

 

[KindOfBlue]

we can be sure that it was deliberate storytelling.

Not that it matters in the end but I guess the reason I can’t be sure it was deliberate is because I feel like they would’ve explained as much, unless they’ve gone into detail about their intentions I feel like it was mainly just a fun mechanic for them to play with but it happened to just work so well

especially considering Nojima's quote about having to write precisely for precise graphics that leave less options to imagination.

Stuff like this is what I like to see, though I could see people using this to justify all kinds of interpretations...I think they’d have to make their intentions as undeniable as possibly to minimize people misinterpreting the story

 

[eleamaya]

Yeah, @insanehobbit posted this in the Cloti thread and I actually had time to kill so I read through all of it, there’s some pretty interesting stuff worth discussing but I honestly don’t know where to start lol overall though, I liked it

Why dont they post here if the point is debunking LTD?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Why dont they post here if the point is debunking LTD?

Not sure, I just didn’t want to go deep into it over there since it seemed more appropriate to do so here

 

[Shadowfox]

I think another thing that may not be clear (whether it’s the group that didn’t let Cloud in or Tifa specifically) is what does he mean by “never let me in the group”? Does he mean to say that the group intentionally left him out or that the group simply just never reached out to him? Maybe Tifa wanted him to join but the others didn’t? Maybe they just didn’t think much about what they were doing?

I wonder if that flashback in the first chapter of the remake takes place after Cloud and Tifa fall off the mountain, so maybe Cloud is ignoring Tifa because her father told him to stay away from her.

I think there are two reasons for him being by himself:

First, Cloud was lacking in self confidence and so tended to avoid groups. The Japanese script in the OG never said that Cloud wasn't allowed in, only that he couldn't muster up the nerve to join the other kids even though he wanted to play with them.

Second, after Tifa's fall, he kept his distance because of her father and because he blamed himself for failing to save her.