FFVII Remake: Intergrade Yuffie DLC Announced

[Obsidian Fire]

Right, but surely you would concede that the story in Elder Scrolls is a distant, distant second to open world exploration. There are exactly zero compelling characters.. maybe one if I count Lucien Lachance. The story in Final Fantasy is everything. Story and characters.

Considering the thing I spent the longest time doing in Elder Scrolls was debating lore and story points.... nah. Morrowind was the first game that *really* gave me a taste of the kind of storytelling you could do in a video game that you couldn't do in a novel or a movie. And was when I first really got involved in lore research and participating in forums and making fan theories and the like. And it wasn't just because of all the crazy lore either. It was the characters that were *applying* the lore of the world that really got discussed and stood out. Vivec, Talos, Barenziah, the Daedric Princes, the Aedra... those "characters" persist across Elder Scroll games and seeing each new iteration of them and what they did is fascinating. If anything, Skyrim moved away from that more heavy story/lore stuff and that was when I lost interest in it.

If I was forced to pick a "fictional character that has impacted you the most"... I'd have to pick Vivec from Morrowind. Just about *every* single character I RP as is some variation of his general arc. Just with his general dickishness toned down (because running roughshod over everyone in your way is a *great* way to make some enemies that will cause you trouble latter down the line... oh hello Nerevarine!). He's such a fascinating character that really impacts the world and story of Morrowind in a huge way. And his philosophy is... well... either people *hate* it or it's often one of the reasons they *love* Morrowind in general. CHIM, take heaven by violence, the Tower, etc.

But like... seriously... Morrowind was in this sweet spot of gaming history where games still had walls and walls of text in them, but graphics had finally made the jump to true 3D meshes and textures. So there's this interesting juxtaposition of actual places to explore, but also tons of stories and text. Bethesda games after it made better *looking* games... but they never managed to stick in as much *story* that got into such crazy ideas into a game since.

Part of that was of how Morrowind's main quest was set up. It sets up from the start that you are a stranger in the land and that one of the things you *need* to do is do... side quests... and join guilds.... because no one can know you're *actually* a spy for the nation that has taken over Morrowind (at least, they have in name...). And that... really facilitates it being an open world game that you *should* be exploring. And what an open world *setting* it is to explore. The Dwemer, the Morag Tong (the *legalized* assassin's guild), the Tribunal, the Three Great Houses of Morrowind.... the list goes on. Morrowind has stuck with me for so long because it really sold how alien the setting and societies on Vvardenfel were compared to other settings. It really feels like you were dropped into a setting you are *supposed* to know not much about and that got worked into the story in a very organic way.

And let's not get into all the hours I have spent both in and out of game reading the in-game books... (seriously, I want the FFVII version of 36 Lessons of Vivec, The Monomyth, Children of the Sky, On Oblivion, The Real Barenziah, etc. *so badly*)

No wonder I'm more than fine with Genesis in general and Loveless existing and actually being a *big deal* potentially in-universe...

 

[cold_spirit]

Hard as I try, I can't imagine FFVII working as an open world game.

For those who can imagine it, how far into the story do you think Part 2 will go? Just to Junon? Typically open world games just have one map, though there are exceptions (The Witcher 3, Metal Gear Solid V). If we imagine a two map scenario, do both of the major continents get a map? Does Part 2's story go up to Rocket Town then? Or maybe the Temple of the Ancients as an off-shore last dungeon?

Games that take place in a region are best suited for open world game design. Think Hyrule in Breath of the Wild or Colorado in Horizon Zero Dawn. Furthermore, their narratives are conceptualized in a way that moves the player back and forth between the same towns/cities/outposts. The areas between these civilizations are then filled with detail because the designers know players will traverse them multiple times. FFVII, as we know it, does not lend itself well to this. FFVII is a globe trotting adventure where you move from locale to locale in a linear fashion. There's little incentive to fill vast maps with detail if the player will only traverse them once.

There's also the issue of abstraction. The map size of most open world games is only a few square kilometers (unless you're Daggerfall, but that game is buggy af). Is it wise to portray both of FFVII's major continents, the bulk of the planet's landmass, as two maps that can be strolled in an afternoon?

So yeah, for me, since FFVII was never built with open world game design in mind, I don't see it working. I think having a mixture of wide and linear areas would best serve the story and abstract the scale enough to make the planet feel large.

 

[Roundhouse]

If I remember right, one of the devs specifically mentioned Horizon Zero Dawn as something that impressed them, so it's possible that might be an influence on P2.

 

[Smoothie King]

Considering the thing I spent the longest time doing in Elder Scrolls was debating lore and story points.... nah. Morrowind was the first game that *really* gave me a taste of the kind of storytelling you could do in a video game that you couldn't do in a novel or a movie. And was when I first really got involved in lore research and participating in forums and making fan theories and the like. And it wasn't just because of all the crazy lore either. It was the characters that were *applying* the lore of the world that really got discussed and stood out. Vivec, Talos, Barenziah, the Daedric Princes, the Aedra... those "characters" persist across Elder Scroll games and seeing each new iteration of them and what they did is fascinating. If anything, Skyrim moved away from that more heavy story/lore stuff and that was when I lost interest in it.

If I was forced to pick a "fictional character that has impacted you the most"... I'd have to pick Vivec from Morrowind. Just about *every* single character I RP as is some variation of his general arc. Just with his general dickishness toned down (because running roughshod over everyone in your way is a *great* way to make some enemies that will cause you trouble latter down the line... oh hello Nerevarine!). He's such a fascinating character that really impacts the world and story of Morrowind in a huge way. And his philosophy is... well... either people *hate* it or it's often one of the reasons they *love* Morrowind in general. CHIM, take heaven by violence, the Tower, etc.

But like... seriously... Morrowind was in this sweet spot of gaming history where games still had walls and walls of text in them, but graphics had finally made the jump to true 3D meshes and textures. So there's this interesting juxtaposition of actual places to explore, but also tons of stories and text. Bethesda games after it made better *looking* games... but they never managed to stick in as much *story* that got into such crazy ideas into a game since.

Part of that was of how Morrowind's main quest was set up. It sets up from the start that you are a stranger in the land and that one of the things you *need* to do is do... side quests... and join guilds.... because no one can know you're *actually* a spy for the nation that has taken over Morrowind (at least, they have in name...). And that... really facilitates it being an open world game that you *should* be exploring. And what an open world *setting* it is to explore. The Dwemer, the Morag Tong (the *legalized* assassin's guild), the Tribunal, the Three Great Houses of Morrowind.... the list goes on. Morrowind has stuck with me for so long because it really sold how alien the setting and societies on Vvardenfel were compared to other settings. It really feels like you were dropped into a setting you are *supposed* to know not much about and that got worked into the story in a very organic way.

And let's not get into all the hours I have spent both in and out of game reading the in-game books... (seriously, I want the FFVII version of 36 Lessons of Vivec, The Monomyth, Children of the Sky, On Oblivion, The Real Barenziah, etc. *so badly*)

No wonder I'm more than fine with Genesis in general and Loveless existing and actually being a *big deal* potentially in-universe...

Completely respect and appreciate your experience. I can't say I've had the same experience (although I throughly love Elder Scrolls) but I'm glad you had them. JRPG's are more my speed, but every ten years or however long between releases I love me an open world Western RPG experience.

 

[cold_spirit]

Hmmm, thinking further, there's also an issue in how Remake's core gameplay mechanics don't lend themselves well to open world game design.

Take Breath of the Wild for example, which uses "systemic" game design. Every object has properties and these properties interact with each other in a consistent way. Use a club on an apple tree and you'll knock the apples off the branch. Use a sword and you'll cut the tree down, allowing you to pick the apples off the branch. A fire sword is strong against ice enemies and will keep you warm on the mountain tops. There's thousands of interesting interactions like this.

Take The Pathless as another example, whose core gameplay mechanics focus on movement. Traveling makes up the majority of time spent in open world games. This is usually a pretty boring interaction that only involves steering a character or vehicle. The Pathless, however, gives the player a whole toolkit of movement options, turning any distance into a creative gameplay opportunity.

Remake's core gameplay mechanics focus on combat. Stats, dodging, blocking, ATB usage, combos, the stagger gauge, everything requires an enemy to be present. So placing huge distances between enemies seems problematic to me because none of the mechanics interact with the environment. Unless Part 2 receives a major gameplay overhaul, I suspect it would make a pretty boring open world game

 

[Makoeyes987]

It'd essentially be like FFXV, which wasn't "bad" but I don't see that enriching the FFVII experience very much.

The developers can create a vast and explorable world without it being open world like FFXV or something. FFVII is very narratively driven so having it be diluted by excess space, travel, and too many side quests would harm the story.

Getting the capability to go all over the world is something that should be done later on, but that's not what the game needs to be developed around from the get-go.

 

[Roger]

Hard as I try, I can't imagine FFVII working as an open world game.

For those who can imagine it, how far into the story do you think Part 2 will go? Just to Junon? Typically open world games just have one map, though there are exceptions (The Witcher 3, Metal Gear Solid V). If we imagine a two map scenario, do both of the major continents get a map? Does Part 2's story go up to Rocket Town then? Or maybe the Temple of the Ancients as an off-shore last dungeon?

Games that take place in a region are best suited for open world game design. Think Hyrule in Breath of the Wild or Colorado in Horizon Zero Dawn. Furthermore, their narratives are conceptualized in a way that moves the player back and forth between the same towns/cities/outposts. The areas between these civilizations are then filled with detail because the designers know players will traverse them multiple times. FFVII, as we know it, does not lend itself well to this. FFVII is a globe trotting adventure where you move from locale to locale in a linear fashion. There's little incentive to fill vast maps with detail if the player will only traverse them once.

There's also the issue of abstraction. The map size of most open world games is only a few square kilometers (unless you're Daggerfall, but that game is buggy af). Is it wise to portray both of FFVII's major continents, the bulk of the planet's landmass, as two maps that can be strolled in an afternoon?

So yeah, for me, since FFVII was never built with open world game design in mind, I don't see it working. I think having a mixture of wide and linear areas would best serve the story and abstract the scale enough to make the planet feel large.

It's not really an option to portray the whole Eastern Continent as their open world map, as it would include the utterly massive circumference of Midgar whether the interior is interactable or not. Their map has to start after we've gone through some amount of the Wasteland and then can't go back again.

 

[Ite]

It's not really an option to portray the whole Eastern Continent as their open world map, as it would include the utterly massive circumference of Midgar whether the interior is interactable or not. Their map has to start after we've gone through some amount of the Wasteland and then can't go back again.

Yes I think a cold open of the Nibelheim incident would be best, then you can start in Kalm with Midgar in the skybox across the uncrossable wasteland, this would allow Kalm > Mythril Mines to be your big impressive set piece zone complete with chocobo riding and super boss.

 

[Eerie]

Remake's core gameplay mechanics focus on combat. Stats, dodging, blocking, ATB usage, combos, the stagger gauge, everything requires an enemy to be present. So placing huge distances between enemies seems problematic to me because none of the mechanics interact with the environment. Unless Part 2 receives a major gameplay overhaul, I suspect it would make a pretty boring open world game

I was thinking about the speed of the game too; an open world may happen, but I'm not sure it's the best thing either. I play MMOs, currently WoW and the world maps aren't that big, except for the first continents. MMOs - Ultima Online excepted, maybe a few others that didn't make it to my radar - are combat-oriented. As such, they're very fast games. There's a lot of grinding to compensate that. There's also the fact that, when you discover a zone, which is an open map, everything is slow. The maps aren't that big but because the only way to travel is to go by foot/horse/chocobo... it feels GIGANTIC. Once you have access to fast travel, you realise that's not true at all, and that actually locations are quite close to each other.

Remake is a fast-paced game. Very fast-paced. It rarely lets you sit on the story, you can only go forward - that feeling is very similar to the OG, where the story makes you feel a sense of hurry, even though you'd do completely random stuff at times. It's something inherent to FFVII, so I am not sure if the open world would fit part 2. Because an open world means a slower game.

 

[Odysseus]

So anyone want to guess at Weiss' role in the story? It seems like the fight with him is VR only, but the fact he has a new design, render, and a bio in the promo materials tells me he must be involved in the actual plot somehow.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean. Yuffie stumbles into Deepground. She's trying to infiltrate Mako Reactor 0 to grab the powerful materia she thinks is stored at its center, and that just so happens to be where Weiss likes to sit down and vibe 99% of the time.

So he's the episode's antagonist.

 

[Roundhouse]

I also get the sense from the stuff they have released that his role is going to be more important than many of us assumed, even for the remake as a whole, possibly. The 'raise the curtain on the final act' thing sounds very portentous...

 

[Odysseus]

I guess I'm just hoping he has a big part to play, I wanna see my Karate Pants man in action. At the same time, Yuffie being able to fight Weiss "second only to Sephiroth" the Immaculate would be a big strain on believability.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yuffie being able to fight Weiss "second only to Sephiroth" the Immaculate would be a big strain on believability.

Not really. Yuffie wouldn't be fighting Weiss alone, and it's not as if she'd be in some sort of showdown fight to the death. Weiss' job would be to protect the reactor from intruders and if they tried to escape, it's not like Weiss is going to chase them all the way out of Deepground and through the streets of Midgar. He probably can't even leave that room, and would he really be someone willing to work overtime for Shinra?

And ninjas are known experts at escaping. That's one of their best traits

 

[cold_spirit]

At the same time, Yuffie being able to fight Weiss "second only to Sephiroth" the Immaculate would be a big strain on believability.

If they do go that route, I imagine they'd have Wiess pull the whole "That was fun, I won't hold back next time" shtick after battle.

Which, I mean, I hope they go with because I wouldn't mind fighting Weiss with Yuffie and Sonon's mechanics.

 

[Tetsujin]

And ninjas are known experts at escaping. That's one of their best traits

Except this one hasn't taken her rope escape lessons seriously...

 

[Roundhouse]

Now that Mako has mentioned the concept, I would absoluely love to see Weiss chase them all through the streets of Midgar. It sounds hilarious and brilliant.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I still think someone else will show up to make the power gap up between Yuffie and the Tsivets. Thing is... Weiss isn't the only Tsivet down there. There's four more and three of them aren't locked up like Weiss and Nero are... No way Yuffie *doesn't* bump into Azul, Rosso and Shelke at some point. And it's that potential 3 vs 1 situation where it feels like Yuffie needs at least one more person on her team...

 

[Roundhouse]

The only question is will it be Genesis or Zack...

 

[Odysseus]

Not really. Yuffie wouldn't be fighting Weiss alone, and it's not as if she'd be in some sort of showdown fight to the death. Weiss' job would be to protect the reactor from intruders and if they tried to escape, it's not like Weiss is going to chase them all the way out of Deepground and through the streets of Midgar. He probably can't even leave that room, and would he really be someone willing to work overtime for Shinra?

And ninjas are known experts at escaping. That's one of their best traits

The plot is that they are after the most powerful materia, so it'd make sense if they suspect it's in reactor 0. Which would justify an encounter with Weiss. I could see them doing the "I wasn't even using 10% of my full power" trope just to justify a fun boss fight with him. The VR version would probably be more true to life for him.

I'm surprised at how close to their chest they're keeping the finer plot details. I think chapter 1 will end with the plate falling, and they'll find their way down into deepground from there (maybe by actually going through the same secret lab the main party does because reusing assets is gucci.)

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

It'd be pretty cool to fight him while he's chained to the throne as a handicap.

 

[OWA-2]

I also get the sense from the stuff they have released that his role is going to be more important than many of us assumed, even for the remake as a whole, possibly. The 'raise the curtain on the final act' thing sounds very portentous...

Honestly, I hope it is. My(unrealistic) hope, is that Square-Enix finds a way to make every important element of the Compilation be relevant to Remake, without compromising it's quality and original story. I want to see Weiss, Genesis, Chaos, Minerva, Omega... All of them having some role in the story, big or small, without changing the main plot too much. Like I said, it's an unrealistic wish, but it's what I would like to see.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Honestly, I hope it is. My(unrealistic) hope, is that Square-Enix finds a way to make every important element of the Compilation be relevant to Remake, without compromising it's quality and original story. I want to see Weiss, Genesis, Chaos, Minerva, Omega... All of them having some role in the story, big or small, without changing the main plot too much. Like I said, it's an unrealistic wish, but it's what I would like to see.

Increasingly, it seems realistic.

Also, Nomura did say he had wanted to end the Compilation with a remake like ten years ago, so it stands to reason that tying that body of work into a finale for the FFVII series has been on the team's mind for quite some time.

 

[Eerie]

This is really how I see it going - with Nojima saying he wanted to add locations from the Compilation too - and that's also why I always argue that FFVII is going to happen as it more or less did in the OG. In different ways etc., but the backbone will definitely be there.

 

[LNK]

I still think someone else will show up to make the power gap up between Yuffie and the Tsivets. Thing is... Weiss isn't the only Tsivet down there. There's four more and three of them aren't locked up like Weiss and Nero are... No way Yuffie *doesn't* bump into Azul, Rosso and Shelke at some point. And it's that potential 3 vs 1 situation where it feels like Yuffie needs at least one more person on her team...

I like the idea of her fighting those 3, and Weiss acting as Vader did in Fallen Order