Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal

[waw]

I still don't accept that Angeal and Genesis just coincidentally joined SOLDIER. If that's really canon, it's terrible writing.

I think Angeal's mom, Gillian, had a lot to do with it. This is all headcanon but she wanted her experiment to surpass Hojo's, right? So I could see her pushing, prodding, and urging li'l Angeal and Genesis to be jealous/aware of Sephiroth and push them to surpass him.

Then again, they have Jenova... uh... Genes... in them, if not the cells and I can hardly imagine they wouldn't feel the pull to come together in some capacity. I always assumed this was why Sephiroth felt kinship towards some of those in SOLDIER like Genesis and Angeal. The comaraderie he feels is also parts of Jenova not wanting to fight itself.

And yeah, I'm probably in a super minority, but I don't believe they discarded all those early developmental ideas and are probably floating around in the creators' minds to some extent.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@waw We do know from the Ultimanias what Zack's DWM actually is. And it's *nothing* to do with the Cetra.

It's Zack's own Jenova Abilities. Thing is... he's got a crazy amount of willpower (really, that's a direct requirment to get into SOLDIER) so instead of Jenova's willpower overpowering Zack, he overpowers Jenova. He still has Jenova Cells and they still do effect him, it's just... they're making him more like... himself... rather than more like Jenova.

And Zack ends up with a mash-up of Jenova's ability to mimic people based on how well he has emotionally connected with them. Instead of Sephiroth's ability to read people's minds and make people see things that aren't there... Zack's ability essentially reads his own mind and lets Zack mimic the abilities of the people in those memories. Who he is remembering the most strongly is what ability he is mimicking.

This is a *really good thing* for Zack as it means anyone trying to effect him with Jenova Cells has no clean slate to work with with. He already mentally beat Jenova way back when, so when Hojo tries turning him into a Sephiroth Copy, it can't take. It's like Zack has made his own "strain" of Jenova Cells, so the other Cells can't mess with him anymore. He's got Z Cells effectively.

If you want a more metaphysical idea of what is going on... Putting Jenova Cells in someone pits Jenova's [心] against the person's [心]. Whichever one "wins" ends up being in (subconscious) control over what exactly the Jenova Cells will change about the person. It also kinda puts the winners [心] in the Jenova Cells though. If a person who *beat* Jenova has their cells put in someone else, then their [心] starts effecting the [心] of the person whose body they are now in. We see this with Genesis and Angeal when their Cells are put into other people/beings. Those people/beings start taking on the characteristics of Genesis and Angeal. Same thing with the Sephiroth Copies. They don't have a strong enough [心] to beat Sephiroth.

Zack has a crazy strong [心]. So he beats out Jenova's [心] no problem and the Jenova Cells only give in Zack Jenova traits that fits with Zack's [心] instead of Jenova's [心]. So it's a straight upgrade with basically no downsides for him.

In comparison... Genesis and Angeal are more exposed to Gillian's Cells rather than Jenova's (Angeal gets both). And from a *very* young age. Too young to even have a strong [心] yet... So... their Jenova Abilities are influenced by Gillian's [心] instead of Genesis and Angeal's [心].

Sephiroth has it *the worst*. He got exposed to straight-up Jenova Cells before he was even born. And canonically has the strongest Jenova Traits of anyone... you really have to wonder what his [心] is like... Honestly, the best case scenario is that given Lucrecia *was* pregnant with him at the time and clearly was having Jenova visions, she *probably* had some kind of influence on the Jenova Cells in both of them... but still... Sephiroth is *screwed* when it comes to developing a strong enough [心] that can keep Jenova from messing with him.

And yeah, I'm probably in a super minority, but I don't believe they discarded all those early developmental ideas and are probably floating around in the creators' minds to some extent.

Oh, I don't think they did either. Just about all of them have shown up in the Compilation or Remake in some form. Tweaked a bit to fit what is now canon... but you can sure see the skeleton of them in FFVII. They tend to bring things *back* from the Initial Design Documents rather than just come up with new stuff.

The one big thing that is missing from the Initial Design Documents is the concept that Jenova is an alien. And the way that goes down is almost a carbon copy of The Thing... You can almost see how *someone* on the story team watched John Carpenter's The Thing and decided that what drove Sephiroth crazy would be *that* rather than some "magical awakening" gone wrong. And they already had a good name picked out. Instead of "Jenova" being some Cetra Scripture, it would be the alien's name. Which would also solve how the Cetra died out so long ago.

But, other than that... the Initial Design Documents fit... very well even with Remake. At least in spirit if not in their execution.

 

[waw]

Instead of "Jenova" being some Cetra Scripture, it would be the alien's name. Which would also solve how the Cetra died out so long ago.

But, other than that... the Initial Design Documents fit... very well even with Remake. At least in spirit if not in their execution.

Thanks for all that! I forgot entirely Zack's DWM was explained.

Good as any place to ask: Did Gast get the name Jenova from the Cetra? Like, was it a "biblical" name? I can't help but wonder if we ever saw what happened back then, some poor girl is running around with that family name or something.

And as they're bringing these concepts back into play, I'm really hoping for the dropped Wutai scenarios XD

 

[Clement Rage]

He seems to have picked it himself. Does Ifalna use the term?

The Turks and SOLDIER have different skillsets. SOLDIER handles the biggest threats, the Turks deal with Shinra's secrets. They do the things that are too secret for everyone else to know about. They'e not as good in a fight, but can be relied upon (mostly) to keep the secrets secret.

Everyone in SOLDIER can beat JENOVA's will by definition. Otherwise they can't be in SOLDIER.

Genesis is a physically capable person who's life's dream is to become a hero. Of course he signed up for SOLDIER.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@waw
I know in the OG English Localization, Ifalna says that *Gast* is the one who called Jenova Jenova. The Cetra never had a "name" for it it seems like. Instead they called Jenova by the title "Calamity From the Skies".

That said... we do know that *someone* has to be translating Cetra into whatever the common language is. And that often includes a whole bunch of proper names no one has any real idea how to pronounce. So no, we don't know how Gast came up with the name "Jenova".

Although I like the idea he found the name "Jenova" on a Cetran Tablet around where Jenova was found and just named her after that. Not realizing that was essentially the name of the leader of the Cetra who sealed Jenova in the first place before Shiva came in and froze anything. But that's all head-canon.

Everyone in SOLDIER can beat JENOVA's will by definition. Otherwise they can't be in SOLDIER.

It's not so much that SOLDIER needs to be able to beat Jenova's will to become a SOLDIER. It's more that they need to not get mako poisioning. Which just so happens to involve the same "sense of self" needed to withstand Jenova's Will. So it's a happy accident more than anything else. You either can get mako poisioning and become a Sephiroh Copy or you don't and become a SOLDIER. It's the same process for both.

 

[waw]

He seems to have picked it himself. Does Ifalna use the term?

The Turks and SOLDIER have different skillsets. SOLDIER handles the biggest threats, the Turks deal with Shinra's secrets. They do the things that are too secret for everyone else to know about. They'e not as good in a fight, but can be relied upon (mostly) to keep the secrets secret.

Everyone in SOLDIER can beat JENOVA's will by definition. Otherwise they can't be in SOLDIER.

Genesis is a physically capable person who's life's dream is to become a hero. Of course he signed up for SOLDIER.

My only problem with this is there is zero reason to not modify the Turks and have a secret SOLDIER division if this the case.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not all Turks are going to handle being showered with mako and the necessary surgery. That's dangerous and could result in mako poisoned Turks.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My 100% personal headcanon is that at least some of the Turks were rescued by Veld from the SOLDIER program. He's very protective of 'his' boys and girls and wouldn't let them be taken for injections and mako baths. But because he is a man of dubious or, shall we say, erratic morality, he's willing to let kids who are not 'his' make the sacrifice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are you talking about the Before Crisis Turks or unseen Turks who existed in the past? Because none of the BC Turks were past SOLDIERs since we know their backgrounds.

I'd imagine if you made it through SOLDIER but somehow flunked out or something, you'd be hard pressed to get work anywhere else. Maybe some theoretically effective SOLDIER who was effective at espionage but crappy at battle, lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Are you asking me, Mako? I mean that if a kid came through the pipeline that Veld thought would make a good Turk he'd siphon that kid off for himself before it started getting processed by the SOLDIER-making machine. These kids that he's handpicked are under his protection but he accepts the fate that befalls the others.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are you asking me, Mako? I mean that if a kid came through the pipeline that Veld thought would make a good Turk he'd siphon that kid off for himself before it started getting processed by the SOLDIER-making machine. These kids that he's handpicked are under his protection but he accepts the fate that befalls the others.

Ohhh, sorta like Cissnei. Makes sense

Shinra orphans are prime candidates for Public Safety.

 

[waw]

Not all Turks are going to handle being showered with mako and the necessary surgery. That's dangerous and could result in mako poisoned Turks.

I don't mean all Turks, but we see them handle some top tier problems, even going after the Ravens that rivaled SOLDIER.

In this light, how could they not handle enhancement, we see none even going through the experiment. It's just odd. They aren't weak willed either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because they simply all wouldn't because they're not SOLDIERs. Just because they're skilled, have abilities, etc doesn't mean they're automatically qualified and capable of handling mako infusion. People able to withstand that are rare enough as is. Even people with physical talent and abilities could end up destroyed just like Cloud. It's a selective process for a reason.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'd say it's more because SOLDIER enhancements are, as Elmyra said, a trade-off: you gain something but lose something. If you can be skilled enough to do your job without them, why would you want them? Again 100% headcanon but Veld won't let "his" kids be anything less/more than human.

 

[waw]

Because they simply all wouldn't because they're not SOLDIERs. Just because they're skilled, have abilities, etc doesn't mean they're automatically qualified and capable of handling mako infusion. People able to withstand that are rare enough as is. Even people with physical talent and abilities could end up destroyed just like Cloud. It's a selective process for a reason.

I must seem dense on it. It just doesn't make sense that the Turks don't have a strong enough will/mind to make it through the process. I get it isn't physical strength alone, but it's awkward for me on multiple levels.

I don't think we ever see things SOLDIERs can do that Turks can't. Either Turks are extremely exceptional or SOLDIER isn't that enhanced. I still hope we somehow/someday get a clear explanation why folks like the Turks aren't turned into SOLDIERs, or even SOLDIER-lite sort of things.

I'd say it's more because SOLDIER enhancements are, as Elmyra said, a trade-off: you gain something but lose something. If you can be skilled enough to do your job without them, why would you want them? Again 100% headcanon but Veld won't let "his" kids be anything less/more than human.

I could understand Veld protectin them, that makes a bit more sense to me. After VIncent, I could see them being very, very apprehensive of any sort of medical process from Shinra. The thing is though, if they can do their job without the enhancements, why not enhance them so they can do more? It's not like anyone acts as if the Turks have surpassed SOLDIER or anything.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think we ever see things SOLDIERs can do that Turks can't. Either Turks are extremely exceptional or SOLDIER isn't that enhanced. I still hope we somehow/someday get a clear explanation why folks like the Turks aren't turned into SOLDIERs, or even SOLDIER-lite sort of things.

You think all Turks are able to do for instance, motorbike combat and superhuman acrobatics like Roche or Cloud?

Before Crisis's Turks struggled against AVALANCHE's Ravens squad, which are bargain bin SOLDIER-esque opponents. If the BC Turks couldn't handle those guys, then they definitely were not up to the level of dealing with things like SOLDIER. Even Reno and Rude aren't that strong and they use materia.

There's a lot of things Turks can't do. Cissnei nearly got killed by a Genesis Copy.

 

[waw]

You think all Turks are able to do for instance, motorbike combat and superhuman acrobatics like Roche or Cloud?

In AC, there's pretty good evidence that the comic relief Rude and Reno are doing pretty extraordinary considering what they're against. Yes, I think we can explain some of it away, but they do show to be incredibly talented. Heck, Elena and Tseng making it out alive from the Northern Crater is pretty remarkable. So... kind of? These guys went toe to toe with Cloud's party and survived, if not posed a credible threat. Now, we've got weird game mechanics to explain this, but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a few could do this. All Turks? No. The one(s) who killed Zirconiade? Yes. Absolutely. Zirconiade should be considered a top tier threat and some of these folks survived.

Before Crisis's Turks struggled against AVALANCHE's Ravens squad, which are bargain bin SOLDIER-esque opponents.

Right, no Jenova cells at best. Yet, Hojo expresses that he's impressed with them. And they don't die, unlike SOLDIERs. They may be "bargain bin" but we shouldn't just dismiss them.

Cissnei nearly got killed by a Genesis Copy.

Genesis was one of the strongest SOLDIERs there was an dhis copies were impressive. Sounds like these guys could give a lot of Shinra a run for the money, being SOLDIER deserters and all. So was this copy a 1st Class, 2nd Class, or 3rd Class? Does that matter here?

I'm not saying all of the Turks should fit this category. But it's kind of like the OG party. Even in Remake, they're all doing some pretty impressive things by the end. Mental prowess aside, they'd all be viable candidates in the "strength" category in my opinion. Their abilities are not like everyone else. So yeah, I kind of think some of the Turks should qualify.

Even the BC chapter with Azul shows that Turks pretty much throw down with someone SOLDIER qualified and this guy is considered because he's tough. So I guess the only answer we can have on this is "well the Turks don't have a strong enough will/sense of self and will lose it to Mako poisoning." That baffles me, because these guys seem damn sure of themselves.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In AC, there's pretty good evidence that the comic relief Rude and Reno are doing pretty extraordinary considering what they're against. Yes, I think we can explain some of it away, but they do show to be incredibly talented. Heck, Elena and Tseng making it out alive from the Northern Crater is pretty remarkable. So... kind of? These guys went toe to toe with Cloud's party and survived, if not posed a credible threat. Now, we've got weird game mechanics to explain this, but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a few could do this. All Turks? No. The one(s) who killed Zirconiade? Yes. Absolutely. Zirconiade should be considered a top tier threat and some of these folks survived.

LOL, Reno and Rude got their asses whooped in AC/C. Loz and Yazoo straight up played around with them and left them black, blue and bloody. Those two Turks got literally only one good hit in against those two SOLDIER level opponents. As for Tseng and Elena....Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo straight up kidnapped Elena and Tseng and kept them as hostages. They only escaped thanks to Vincent.

In The Kids Are Alright, Kadaj straight up fends off the Turks piloting an attack helicopter and they were helpless against him. No, the Turks did not do well against the Remnants of Sephiroth. Yeah, they're strong for humans but they are not anything close to being on par with SOLDIERs.

Like, the Turks took down a huge summon like Zirconiade because all 20 or so of them worked together after weakening it in its own pocket dimension and then they did a coordinated teamwork limit break skill. Even with that they all nearly died. The Before Crisis Turks are strong but they aren't ever portrayed as close to the level of SOLDIER, or even the FFVII main party. They only did a limit break once in the whole story Maybe they'll be stronger in the Remake, but who knows for now. But yeah, they aren't ever portrayed as on the level of SOLDIER.

Genesis was one of the strongest SOLDIERs there was an dhis copies were impressive. Sounds like these guys could give a lot of Shinra a run for the money, being SOLDIER deserters and all. So was this copy a 1st Class, 2nd Class, or 3rd Class? Does that matter here?

Genesis Copies are not on the same level as the original. They were made from SOLDIER-3Cs, 2Cs and infantrymen. And the G-Eraser types (which was the one Cissnei fought) are low level, and don't even use a sword. They just use a stun baton and shotgun. And Cissnei struggled against that. They're low level SOLDIER class threats and Cissnei was unfortunately struggling bad. No, she was not doing well at all.

Even the BC chapter with Azul shows that Turks pretty much throw down with someone SOLDIER qualified and this guy is considered because he's tough. So I guess the only answer we can have on this is "well the Turks don't have a strong enough will/sense of self and will lose it to Mako poisoning." That baffles me, because these guys seem damn sure of themselves.

Azul wasn't a SOLDIER then, he was just a blue bastard who liked beating people up.

Yeah, of course the Turks should be able to throwdown and not get pressed by some bum off the street. Azul only became a monster once he was successfully augmented and infused with Behemoth DNA. I would hope the Turks would be able to handle that.

Like, the necessary aptitude for SOLDIER is a combination of strength, mental strength, and genetic factors that simply do not lend themselves to the mass production of that type of superhuman. If Shinra's Science Department tried to augment every member of Public Security and Investigations to be on par with SOLDIERs, then there'd be a lot more black robbed people wandering around Midgar mumbling about a reunion, that's for sure.

 

[waw]

I won't say you're wrong on any of it, I just don't think it's as substantially clear as you make it seem.

LOL, Reno and Rude got their asses whooped in AC/C. Loz and Yazoo straight up played around with them and left them black, blue and bloody. Those two Turks got literally only one good hit in against those two SOLDIER level opponents. As for Tseng and Elena....Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo straight up kidnapped Elena and Tseng and kept them as hostages. They only escaped thanks to Vincent.

In The Kids Are Alright, Kadaj straight up fends off the Turks piloting an attack helicopter and they were helpless against him. No, the Turks did not do well against the Remnants of Sephiroth. Yeah, they're strong for humans but they are not anything close to being on par with SOLDIERs.

The fact that the Turks consistently survive is what I'm getting at. That endurance really does count for something. They play comic relief, but they keep up pretty well for being humans. Knowing how quickly Loz put down Tifa when he was trying, I think the Turks surviving all of those attacks is impressive and should count for something here.

Genesis Copies are not on the same level as the original. They were made from SOLDIER-3Cs, 2Cs and infantrymen. And the G-Eraser types (which was the one Cissnei fought) are low level, and don't even use a sword. They just use a stun baton and shotgun. And Cissnei struggled against that. They're low level SOLDIER class threats and Cissnei was unfortunately struggling bad. No, she was not doing well at all.

Rufus went toe to toe with Cloud using a shotgun... why is the weapon type here a sign of weakness? Cissnei doesn't strike me as being the Turk who killed Zirconiade (a feat you completely ignored), but she's also an incredibly... uh... I don't know. She plays Zack most of that game. Getting him to be hero is a fine enough explanation for me No, I don't think she was just feigning defeat there, I think it was legitimate. If she has the mental strength to keep up as a Turk... shouldn't that count for something?

Azul wasn't a SOLDIER then, he was just a blue bastard who liked beating people up.

Yeah, of course the Turks should be able to throwdown and not get pressed by some bum off the street. Azul only became a monster once he was successfully augmented and infused with Behemoth DNA. I would hope the Turks would be able to handle that.

They beat a tough guy on the street whose strenght qualified him for SOLDIER. The fact that they threw down and beat a SOLDIER candidate should count for something. My point, and I think it's a fairly good one, I don't know why Azul would be a candidate and none of the Turks would be. So maybe SHINRA doesn't want to transform every candidate into a SOLDIER, but I can't figure out why. We've talked at length in other posts how they don't give a damn about lives or even conserving resources. They just build up for more and more strength. So I'm at a loss here.

Like, the necessary aptitude for SOLDIER is a combination of strength, mental strength, and genetic factors that simply do not lend themselves to the mass production of that type of superhuman. If Shinra's Science Department tried to augment every member of Public Security and Investigations to be on par with SOLDIERs, then there'd be a lot more black robbed people wandering around Midgar mumbling about a reunion, that's for sure.

Now you have my curiosity up. Do we ever have a direct canon statement of what's needed to be a SOLDIER candidate? At this point, I can't tell if it is our inference or if it's clearly stated.

I can't remember any reference to genetics outside of Jenova Cells, S-cells stuff, Aeirth and Red XIII and that's really it. I'm not sure if "genetics" is even in the scripts. I'm not saying you're wrong here, it's just been too long and I don't think they ever explain the science. So when you say that it takes a combo of strength, fortitude, and genes, I really don't know if it's your interpretation or the canon. And if it's genetics, why the heck do they matter? Jenova is a polymorph that'll match whatever genes it seems, and I'm not sure why genes would interact with Mako differently. Again, I don't think this science is given.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact the Turks survive is a testament that they're a cut above normal humans but that doesn't make them potential good candidates for SOLDIER at all. Again, that's actually reminiscent of Cloud's situation. Cloud didn't make the cut for SOLDIER, and when he was forced through the procedure, he succumbed to mako poisoning and became a Sephiroth Copy.

That shows the clear risk of only going by the physical abilities of a candidate. You can be strong and still not mentally or genetically prepared to handle the dangerous procedure.

Rufus went toe to toe with Cloud using a shotgun... why is the weapon type here a sign of weakness? Cissnei doesn't strike me as being the Turk who killed Zirconiade (a feat you completely ignored), but she's also an incredibly... uh... I don't know. She plays Zack most of that game. Getting him to be hero is a fine enough explanation for me No, I don't think she was just feigning defeat there, I think it was legitimate. If she has the mental strength to keep up as a Turk... shouldn't that count for something?

Because for SOLDIER, gunfire is clearly not that threatening unless you're facing a literal army and even then you still end up killing all but three of them. And Rufus is clever and has the skill to throw Cloud off balance with his gunplay but let's be clear. Cloud overwhelmed him and beat the shit out of him. Rufus had to flee that fight. And there's a reason why that while Rufus is able to hold off Cloud with his guns, there's one attack that's capable of instantly staggering him because of the opening that exists from reloading and the sheer force it inflicts on his normal, non-augmented body.

And I didn't ignore it. Killing Zirconiade was a team effort of every BC Turk working together at once. And that took them weakening it, and coordinating carefully. They didn't just overwhelm it with power. Mental strength in this case doesn't equate to the mental fortitude necessary to handle being a Turk, it means holding one's ego together when submerged into the magical collective consciousness of concentrated dead people. Which is not easy at all.

They beat a tough guy on the street whose strenght qualified him for SOLDIER. The fact that they threw down and beat a SOLDIER candidate should count for something. My point, and I think it's a fairly good one, I don't know why Azul would be a candidate and none of the Turks would be. So maybe SHINRA doesn't want to transform every candidate into a SOLDIER, but I can't figure out why. We've talked at length in other posts how they don't give a damn about lives or even conserving resources. They just build up for more and more strength. So I'm at a loss here.

Azul only became "impressive" when he became a DG SOLDIER. He was just a thug in Costa Del Sol who liked to bully and beat people up. That level of "strength" and aggression is on display in the Corneo Coliseum. No, it really doesn't count for anything lol. If the Turks can't handle street punks, what's the point of them? They obviously have the strength and wits to handle that level of opponent.

Azul was a SOLDIER candidate by mere happenstance, to be frank. Thanks to AVALANCHE and Genesis's desertion, there was a lack of lower level SOLDIER members, so the Turks searched for candidates with "quantity" instead of "quality" in mind. The fact Azul had the X factor necessary to become a color-coded Tsviet was pure chance. There wasn't anything about him exceptional except the fact he was eager to join and was a battle maniac. He had a fighting spirit.

I think Shinra has very little regard for human life, but even they wouldn't want to cannibalize their military forces and leave at least 4/5ths of them all zombies in black robes.

Now you have my curiosity up. Do we ever have a direct canon statement of what's needed to be a SOLDIER candidate? At this point, I can't tell if it is our inference or if it's clearly stated.

Well, there's several. I'll just copy-paste

From here.

SOLDIER

「 FFVII – BC – CC – LO 」

Those who are injected with Jenova cells, and are exposed to high concentrations of mako to be made into the ShinRa Company’s enhanced soldiers. They are armed with superhuman strength and endurance, and although they possess amazing reflexes, it is rare to find people with the strength to handle the operation needed for the adaption, and occasionally those subjects who fail during the research stage fall victim to reckless human experiments. SOLDIERs are ranked from 1st, to 2nd, to 3rd according to combat efficiency, and included within 1st is Sephiroth, the figure ranked highest of all.

The FFVII Ultimania Omega:

**Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)
5 years ago, immediately after Sephiroth fell into the Mt. Nibel mako reactor,
Jenova's main body -- which had been left behind -- was utilized by Hojo for
an experiment. This plan -- which Hojo intended to use to prove his Jenova
Reunion Theory -- was called "the Sephiroth Clones Project."

The experiment's procedure -- which involved injecting cells taken from the
headless body of Jenova into the subjects and exposing them to mako -- doesn't
differ from the manufacturing procedure for SOLDIERs. The largest difference
is that SOLDIERs are selected from a prime field, being strong of mind and
body and able to withstand the experiment uninfluenced by Jenova's cells,
whereas the Clones' fragile minds leave them as "portions" of Jenova. The
subjects of the Sephiroth Clones Project were the survivors of the Nibelheim
incident, with absolutely no thought given to sorting them as with SOLDIER,
and -- being unable to maintain their egos -- they lose the ability to live a
normal human life.

Emphasis mine.

Then Crisis Core elaborates even further:

The heightened abilities of SOLDIER members are maintained by a delicate balance of various genetic factors. A change in this balance could only be caused by a 'leak' of genetic information, but this is not possible under normal circumstances. This phenomenon is unique to the SOLDIER type G.

Furthermore, Hojo even explains the procedure and the risks of going overboard to Zack when he wonders why he doesn't feel that different after getting a quick dose of mako. Hojo replies, "That's just the limit of your cellular structure. Or.. Perhaps you'd like to be altered to the point of degradation? Like some second-rate scientist I know has done?"

So yeah, it's rare to find people able to handle the procedure and that ability to handle it is a combination of multiple factors. If you overdo it, you can end up killing someone or making them mako poisoned. The percentage of people able to survive this procedure is small.

 

[waw]

Thank you. I'm thoroughly convinced! I appreciate your time on this one.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'd say it's more because SOLDIER enhancements are, as Elmyra said, a trade-off: you gain something but lose something.

This is only ever in-universe speculation. The "cost" of SOLDIER isn't to the people who survive it with their "sense of self" intact. It is only ever a *gain* to them. The "cost" of SOLDIER is to the people who are mentally weak. And Shinra isn't so stupid as to *not* screen those people out before they get anywhere near mako or Jenova.

If you can be skilled enough to do your job without them, why would you want them?

Because the FFVII world has a bunch of crazy monsters roaming around the landscape that need to be taken care of that's just like... part of the world setting. They're there and that's not really anyone's fault, but they do need to be dealt with by someone. Also... most *practical* fighters are never going to say no to something that could make them have an *easier* time doing their jobs that isn't supposed to come at a cost to them. That means spending less energy/time on your job which means having more energy/time for the next one. And getting turned into a SOLDIER really doesn't have any downsides to it so long as Shinra doesn't make SOLDEIRs out of people who don't make the psych test... which they aren't currently doing in the public eye anyway.

SOLDIERs are pretty much... Captain America. They all but market themselves to people who are after strength and have a hero complex. They're designed to look good so people *want* to join them. And... a good chunk of those people will have the kind of mentality that is perfect for not getting mako poisoning or being taken over by Jenova.

Like... SOLDIER is less of a branch of the US Military and more the Shinigami Divisions from Bleach. *Technically* they have to do what the Central 64 (their governing body) says they need to do... but most of the time they're left to do as they please... which is hunt monsters that *do* need hunting and goofing off on personal interests. Which is probably a good thing as the Shinigami are a lot more *physically* powerful than the Central 64 are. And then everything kinda goes to hell (almost literally) when the Central 64 tells the Shinigami to do something they really don't want to do...

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, even those who do qualify for SOLDIER, make the cut and survive the procedure can suffer ill effects later on.

The fact that Sephiroth Copy #2 was a SOLDIER, shows that even those who do make the cut and survive the process can suffer ill effects as time goes on. Maybe he was a candidate who only barely made the cut, and then he succumbed to the call of Reunion. Sort of like how the former SOLDIER who ran the weapon shop in Upper Junon was compelled to wear a black robe but still maintained their sense of self.

With this in mind we can see there's a scale of qualification and adaptability to the whole procedure. Some people take to it without a problem like Zack and suffer no ill effects whatsoever. And some barely make it and are left mentally vulnerable. Either way, it's a very risky process, even if you are deemed a fitting candidate.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe the trade off is in intelligence. None of the SOLDIERs we see are what you'd call clever, and Zack is pretty dense. A SOLDIER doesn't need intelligence, he just needs to a) obey orders, and b) thwack things until they're dead. A Turk's job calls for rather more in the way of judgement and discrimination.

 

[Clement Rage]

You can't have a stealth unit of SOLDIER because they can't hide their eyes.

Shears in unaugmented, and kicks the crap out of every Turk he meets. Direct combat isn't what they're supposed to be doing, if they're fighting someone directly it means they've already screwed up. They have to be able and ready to fight, but they do something differently.

They need to be discreet, and they need to be willing to do things like kidnap people for Hojo with no qualms, or at least no objections. SOLDIER has an entirely different function.

Edit: Where was Jenova found, do we know? It's supposed to be in the geological strata of 2000 years ago, but wouldn't the meteor strike mess up all the strata?