No worries about being nervous, you made a pretty coherent argument, and reading through this entire thread takes dedication!
Don't worry. First time posting is always awkward but it gets easier
Thank you very much for the encouragement (It’s just social anxiety). Also sorry, I appeared to be cringy (and probably still will be…smh) but I’ll try to calm down and be less defensive. I don’t know about dedication haha, but its 100% anxiety doing the work.
Johnny being an exaggerated version of him is a funny thought but I'd have to look more into that I think!
Haha, it depends on what kind of writer nojima is. But considering the expansion they made for him in this game, I find it hilarious if it’s a true Easter egg.
As for Cloud's mom, I think he remembers her (the Nibelheim/Sephiroth flashback at the beginning of Remake and the dream at Aerith's house) and then probably remembers her better once he, er, unmuddles his head with Tifa? He was something like fifteen/sixteen when Nibelheim happened so he'd have more concrete memories than Tifa at any rate.
Granted he remembers his mom more, but I find it strange how he handles this. As far as I know, cloud has yet to properly grieve for his mom. She’s the only one he had growing up (tifa too, but…). He barely sent postcards and he was in an avoidant mood (due to shame) during the last time they’ve spoken. To me this inspires guilt, as he could have felt like he had taken her for granted (obv Claudia would never blame him). Also, he should have greatly empathize with tifa’s words (he experienced the same thing) and yet soldier cloud prioritizes her comfort instead of get sad with her. Maybe true cloud was sad but the way this scene has been described, it’s as though he was swept by his youthful romantic feelings instead and forgot that. Hence why, Nojima says “they’re still young” (hormones + he’s pinning on her). I was surprised to find that initially this wasn’t thought of as romantic, that scene was textbook (what I call) “amnesia hug”. Also, it’s quite bold of SE, considering the LTD. For characters (cloud) and scenes like this, it’s more common that it takes time before the act. Yet they skipped right through the climax of it haha. In any case, Tifa was the one who did not think of romance. Crying her heart out while Cloud was taking advantage of the moment (priorities). But yeah, it feels as though without ToTP, Claudia feels like a tool to add confusion w/ her line. That’s what I think. I don’t assert my idea as a fact, rather I just think it’s a good opportunity to tie her into his arc more. In fact despite caring, cloud does take aerith for granted sometimes.
Oh no, it's not the "what ifs" that keep Clerith going. It's denial, literary incomprehension and spite lol.
There’s a faction like this in every debate. However,
severe Cleriths are easier to ignore. Ones who don’t ship and yet act the same way as you’ve described, confuses me more. By “what ifs” I meant, if cloud uncharacteristically blurts out “Hey aerith, you’re like a ___” then every single CA interaction (cloud’s pov) gets colored with context. Currently it’s empty, so it’s easier to fill in with whatever that’s working or not (Like I’m doing).
Actually,
I don’t think aerith’s confused here at all (I only tried to entertain it and what could happen). Whatever happened with that line, it happened off cam to me. I see her confident and decisive albeit forlorn. Perhaps I’m projecting but if you’ll allow to humor me (and forgive this sappy narration). I think Masayoshi Yamazaki’s One More Time, One More Chance (
5 cen per second) encompass what I think of ZA. For years, aerith waited for zack with no mere effort on her part. During the years before his passing, she really could have thought he went with some other girl or wasn’t true to her at all. In defense (in OG), she talked like
The Fox and the Grapes to ease her pain of not knowing what’s real and to deny his death (or later on to force herself to move on through soldier cloud). I’m not sure if she had a memento of his image, but the only things she has of him are objects and fond memories. There’s a chance she’s starting to forget them and feels helpless about it (that’s why even though cloud is so far from zack, she still sees it). During the time of his passing, she’s at the peak of her loneliness (loveless st). She’s yearning for hope and still waiting, then she meets cloud. Is it a cruel/blessing turn of events? As he indirectly reminded her again of what was important to her. Perhaps she fell for Soldier cloud (not true cloud), but eventually realizes it was with his false image all along (the ver half the man zack was in her memory). A love that
literally never was, hence star-crossed lovers (
Lovers whose relationship is doomed to fail/ end in tragedy. Meanwhile the stars motif with CT acts as a way to confuse you but aren’t truly doomed to fail. I swear only masochists would want that label for their ship). Just like cloud, aerith too cannot heal their pain through embracing illusions. They have to face reality or they can’t escape the loop of this mere dream that engulfs them on what truly matters. Specifically what Re!aerith is doing, she’s being proactive instead.
One more thing, friendship. I assume she didn’t have many/any? (Kid aerith crying scene). Yamazaki (cloud’s mo cap actor) says it better than I, but I really felt for aerith after that “we found you” line from tifa. There’s an emphasis on this friendship. Whatever Re!aerith is doing? She’s already grounded unlike before. Instead of falling in love with someone who reminds her of her ex. She instead made more friends. Equally seeking them as she fills the void and loneliness. That’s why the idea that aerith chooses between zack and cloud while thinking of tifa is just unnecessary. But if they did? How long will they do that? Part 2 till part 3? Then Z & A will die anyway? What’s the point? However I think it’s important for the game to address that lifestream white line otherwise it would look like a retcon (
just one line, one line to confuse it all). That wasn’t even built up in OG. We can make up a guess like I did, but still, better them than us.
In a way, I guess Aerith's character arc is also about letting go of her denials; her denial of her cetra heritage and her denial of Zack's death. It kind of started already when she met Zack and the two of them helped each other to sort of embrace their "non-normalness".
You worded this better haha, but I’m a bit dishearten it’s not the common guess of her trajectory? I digress, imagine just finishing CC-reunion. What kind of psychopath would choose to bring zack back only to make him suffer (not meet her, rejected, etc)…but I can see him still dying. That’s just tragedy for the sake of tragedy, plus isn’t zack Nojima’s favorite character? (I’m not sure lol I just heard it).
The bottom line is that Final Fantasy VII is neither an american sitcom nor a bishōjo game.
Of course not, because if it is then as a huge consumer of visual novels etc. FF7 really sucks. It’s missing everything that sells this genre. I hope that’s not their goal is it? It’s a cool technique to aid showing the conflict but… as simple “it’s to show illusion of choice” would have helped greatly but devs rather not. Unless of course this isn’t the case at all???
I'm not saying that's the right interpretation, just the most common one. This theory is also then commonly paired with Cloud will then also travel space time to destroy Sephiroth to bring Aerith back to life, and they will marry and live happily ever after
I know I’m superrrr late, but I’ll take a bit of a gander. “Even if you think you do, it’s not real/imagination” can be a throwaway line that’s done for the drama/tension. Then we’d be heading out with that theory. Though if real, I have to say I think SE’s not stopping at just killing the LTD only .....
The important difference between True cloud and Soldier cloud
The main difference is the existence of agency. True cloud is somebody out of therapy. To further explain, I’ll be taking some out of otp-oasis-heavenxearth’s comment on DutchDread’s video. Basically if a certain somebody meets the points that fulfills the needs of the soldier cloud persona (also the player), then he will favor said girl. Anybody who hypes up his ego as a hero, seen as cool, needed, dependent upon on, etc. Everything that true cloud desired he was or think Tifa would want. So it’s no wonder why soldier cloud could have fallen for aerith in OG because she was handling all the points to him. But in remake, re!aerith is self-aware. She proceeds to push down his ego, questioning his abilities, even her flirting (“my hero”etc) sounds sarcastic. I think Subaru (vtuber) and Yamazaki actually points out how harsh she is lol. Like a classmate or an older sister pulling no punches. It’s reminiscent of her CC personality but harsher yet playful. Aerith also paints tifa as the damsel in distress here to soldier cloud (the points). As highlighted in Don Corneo arc. That being said, he too could fall for Jessie if given the chance. I think it’s a good choice to include her. Her personality reminds of OG aerith and it helps see the nuance in the changes. But here comes the tricky part (maybe). Tifa too, even if she’s prioritized by soldier cloud, it also doesn’t matter. Not as much as true cloud’s favor (the one whose opinion only matters lol). Going by the trailer, it seems that he’s doubting her (there’s some kind of shift) and so
no matter who he favors at one point, it can easily be manipulated. Much like how the player can decide if they feel like going for aerith or tifa instead (or none). Soldier cloud/ Player can change it anytime. Now, while the impact of SC-T’s interaction is arguable.
Frankly my dear, the devs don’t give a damn. From the quality & quantity of their interactions, The numerous “romantic” CT scenes you still get even if you miss the corkscrew tunnel/ alone at last, the uniqueness of CT’s interactions compared to CA and CJ, the camera framings, Crescent moon charm’s description that both C & T shares a piece of the pair of and she wears it with her
mature dress (Claudia’s line), revised B&W top for both tifa and kid cloud (CT also had similar designs in AC), Midgar Blues, the promotions, the fact that soldier cloud’s persona was curated to be accepted by tifa (a hero), and most vital, true cloud appearing when he’s with tifa (not sure if it’s only in her resolution). I do find it fascinating how he’s already flirting with her (more obv in the Jp ver). Maybe something happened off cam or that’s just soldier cloud’s default setting, favoring tifa first. So even if it can be argued, SE themselves are doing this to hype up for the real deal anyway (TC-T). I don’t think they’ve come this far, do all the work, only to take it away.
Aeirith’s resolution scene
Again, I got the idea from otp-oasis-heavenxearth and Silver-wield. They had other things covered about the HW etc. so I ought to reference them. Other than that
, I want to give a different perspective.
https://www.tumblr.com/silver-wield...t-wanted-to-say-that-i-love-your?source=share
There are two speakers here. SE for the viewer, while Aerith is to Soldier Cloud. I’d like to think, she doesn’t know we exist lol. What is this, Doki Doki lit club? SE’s just using their artistic license/ Direction because they can. Just like how they used the illusion of choice to present the nature of conflict. SE’s the one presenting the HW ref.
The characters don’t know HW, but we do. Aerith (OG/Re!Aerith) is aware of his affliction. Re!Aerith specifically, knew 100% about his feelings by the time she saw that flower at Tifa’s bar (though she had a hunch). It’s not Marlene because during the flower selling scene, cloud immediately says he’ll buy it once she told him that his girlfriend will be happy (TY, I learned that because of this forum). Also Re!Aerith unlike OG has a clearer mind here, she isn’t slow on the uptake (you know, like claudia’s “goodness goodness” after realizing that cloud has a crush on tifa. Inspiring him to become Soldier, okay I’ll stop lol). If aerith does know HW…. how? If it’s OG aerith, does she have the ability to see what happens to the cast after she dies? If so, she watched it alongside Barret and Cid. We also have to accept that she knew true cloud. Thinking that he’s her lover would make sense if she stalked cloud long enough. She didn’t even spoke of tifa, the girl who called aerith more than a friend. Tbh when does the lifestream white line happen? Is it before or after meeting zack again in the lifestream? Perhaps that’s the off cam thing I spoke of before. Maybe she got a wakeup call. If it’s Re!Aerith, then I have no clue. Such a detail seem invasive and also sepiroth unrelated. To me it’s a no but….I will go back to this later.
Before I start, it’s important to
place yourself first in someone who prioritized Aerith in the whole game. SE’s addressing these players
the most. For what you get reflects the player’s approach when they played the game (with a purpose in mind). PS. If I sound like an asshole on SE’s side, I just felt like what they did here sounded like they’re frustrated (or that’s me) and that influenced my interpretation. Also, I used to write scripts, so if some parts are over interpreted, then apologies. It’s a force of habit.
“Whatever you do, you can’t fall in love with me” - It’s peculiar that instead of fixing and adding parts that would deliver this naturally/ understandably as they fought about this line. They’d rather settled with "they may think she’s arrogant unless they know the story” instead. As insane-hobbit has said, none before and after happened to address this scene. Which brings me to think that the devs meant not only her death but also the condition of cloud. The fact that he
literally cannot fall for her because it’s not the real him. If true, they sure are sneaky with their words lol. I hate it. Also, if it was meant to be romantic then it will look romantic, SE has proven that over the years with their other games but this scene was just sad and serious.
Player: I know you love aerith the most, but not only are you not cloud (so don’t self-insert), we will also eventually kill her. So to save yourself from having false hopes of you/cloud ending up with her, don’t. For the rest of the audience, we know you can’t help but love her even if you know she’s about to die. We understand.
Cloud: I’ll group both her revelations as what nojima referred to as the same function as her golden saucer line. Which is to hint at his character conflict and Soldier cloud is completely oblivious of what she’s talking about.
“Do I get a say on this? / That’s one-sided”
Player: If you’ll allow me to use the same trick with aerith (looking at the player), then this could be the player’s back and they’re protesting to aerith. That, or/
and it could be the mirror image of the 3rd photo. This could also be the back view of the mirror image of the HW ref with tifa in her resolution (perhaps a hint at the possible conflict CT might have that challenges their bond…It’s just my theory lol. That pars with her red dress and bartender scene etc.).
“It’s almost morning. Time to go”
Player: SE literally using true cloud’s own words (his say) as a reply to this player’s protest. Cheekier with the English ver while subtle brushing off yet still reminding in the jp ver. But the overall answer was “none/ignored” because the points system is a ruse.
“If that’s what you want, thank you/ it’s frustrating/shameful, but I’m happy”
Player: So even after all the hints we’ve given, the shots, the lines (also the word “embrace”), and the whole franchise rather. You still won’t accept defeat. Well then, we’re happy that we’ve managed to make aerith this effective that you’d love her this much. Thank you.
Cloud: There’s a part of her that knows soldier cloud couldn’t understand her (despite wanting to help), but can’t help but be happy he missed it and that he hasn’t change from what she remembered. If this is
present time aerith, then just cut the “he hasn’t change...remembered”
OG aerith context- Nostalgia, She met soldier cloud again (but it’s not a real reunion/ no flowers under her feet because soldier cloud isn’t real and she isn’t there). Last time, she communicated with true cloud instead in AC. She’s here to help cloud and say what she couldn’t before.
Re!Aerith context- Not sure if this was after or before she goes off on her own. But this message could be brought by the cracks she’s seen in him (beating her up etc) and wants to help and at the same time say her peace (I wish she could have thanked tifa as well etc).
If this is OG aerith, then she’s just a tragic character. If it’s Re!aerith then she’s even more tragic. By the vibe, it seems that she never met true cloud and perhaps zack. She also wasn’t able to say her farewells to everybody only to cloud here (…tifa). Her life gets taken away by force once again instead of her own way. We won’t be addressing the lifestream white line (not sure if Re!aerith will still say that). With OG aerith, there’s still a chance for re!aerith’s life to be prolonged.
IF this Re!aerith is wholly with complete Meta knowledge of everything about FF7
Then Re!aerith must be in great pain than I thought she was. I don’t know if she got time for romance when the world is hanging by a thread. Like a god, I can totally see why Marlene would react to her that way lol.
I thought if they were separated then OG aerith is influencing/guiding Re!aerith here. Causing her to have Meta knowledge w/o her knowing. Are there theories besides her being a Cetra that causes her to have so? It seems so convenient. Certainly she knows of HW or AC. Then everything I’ve placed in SE’s message to the player is a double entendre with Re!Aerith (just adjust it). Hmm, I don’t know if I like the idea that it’s because of Re!aerith that the LTD is dying, that inspires “tifa only won because aerith let her so” because she probably has feelings for soldier cloud due to that lifestream white line (or she doesn’t anymore? I don’t know…). I have to wonder how "much" she saw the HW scene. No wonder she’s sad, not only does she know she’ll die but also got Meta knowledge rejected if she still likes him. Anyway, with Re!aerith being adamant with CT, I can only think of two that will continue CA as “romantic”: 1. its connected to the conflict I theorized
for myself lol w/or w/o Re!aerith's choice (sepiroth related) or 2. They’ll prolong it to not lose audiences for part 3. Tbh this is probably stupid (related to 1.) but 7 seconds sounds like a countdown to choose who to save. Moving on, then her “If that’s what … but I’m happy” context is
well depending on the timing. If it’s present time of her kidnapping, then she is indeed only trying to make herself happy despite the pain. Though, again didn’t say her farewells to tifa in her dreams. If she’s dead, then it’s same with Re!aerith’s great tragedy. Now, if there’s a possible way to save her from death after dying/not (time travel /alternate universe logic). I won't discount the possibility, but this is big thing to pull off only for her to die again? Whether she gets saved by zack or cloud, it will be redundant and cruel. If this is in the present time, then there's still hope that she can do more things but tbh OG aerith just seems cleaner to me. I hope this all made sense, I wanted to look at all the angles.
Interpretation of cloud’s perspective
Cloud doesn’t know he’s talking to the real one but since he’s in a dream, he allows himself to be less tsundere. Suddenly she goes saying all this death flag shit then BAM! “Whatever you…love with me”. In my pov, Cloud is
at the height of his worry (she just got kidnapped lol) gets dishearten and offended so he looks away. But not because: 1. He got caught having feelings or 2. Appalled by her arrogance (lol, but I would). Rather, not of what she
specifically said but because she probably went teasing him again! Seriously, Even in a dream aerith infuriates him while he’s worried sick here
Or during her long pause, he was anticipating she’ll say something awful but it was just this. He’s happy it wasn’t serious but it sure was annoying. But not for long, because as soon as she touches his checks and continue on, a cold water is splashed at cloud.
This isn’t normal cloud who knows he’s in a dream suddenly forgets that he is due to sincere worry. So he catches her hands to know what’s going on, but fails. He realizes
yeah, it’s only a dream, but still it worries him so. Then says “Do I get…one-sided” perhaps because she’s talking on her own about a topic he doesn’t understand is coming from and that she’s speaking for him. Not because he’s protesting but because he
literally has got no clue and wants to say his side of the story or ask wth is going on (going by what nojima said is like her golden saucer line, no clue at all). He only gets ignored. Classic. So with limited understanding he ends up just brushing it off as a bad dream or wtvr. It’s pointless to overthink about a dream and instead says “I’ll come to save you”. Whether she’s doing this weird thing to push him away (to save him?) or a bad premonition, Soldier cloud’s main code is still to protect (he also cares). So he won’t back down. Then Aerith says her line with a bittersweet smile. Cloud’s “not really” is a classic tsundere move. Unlike in a dream, this is reality, he doesn’t allow himself to talk freely. But is happy that it was indeed just a dream. However considering the new events unfolding, he can’t just brush it off. Like someone said here, cloud’s “he’s tough” is him telling aerith that she might be better of far away from danger. Lol aerith sounded like “who you calling a weakling! Huh?”
HW is also referenced with tifa’s (it’s mirrored because they haven’t truly reunited yet). I’ve seen somewhere that this scene has been built up since
Alone at last. Tifa’s rug with a reunion flower design and his false expectation. I think his “hmm”, was a result of that yearning. He was truly disappointed then, so I can get why he would get lost in a trance (in the same way he did before he got awakened by tifa’s “so”). While the flower aren’t just a rug, it’s the real one and they truly reunite for a short while. If I have to guess based from the pattern, I believe in the real HW, cloud will be the one to hug tifa instead. Because that’s his silent reply right? But since he’s shy, he hugs tifa on her back (his “…” in OG could be him short-circuiting or pondering how to proceed). I could go on but I’ll stop, however I do wish for Cloti fans to get at least 26+ years’ worth the wait moment (Shinran….). The best we can get on screen is probably a
visible kiss then fade to black. I’m actually more excited for the ost, I loved what they did in her resolution. Do you think they’ll pre-render this scene so it won’t be edited? If you know what I mean.
I think SE is sacrificing the LTD for a coherent story (hopefully). Some of the probable factors that caused this divided understanding of OG are: 1. People played once and called it a day, 2. played every single thing but didn't care to connect the dots, 3. in denial etc., and 4.The subtlety or way of writing/directing wasn’t effective on delivering the story clearly. But they did make solutions: 1. Divided into parts, so the points reset. Perhaps to have control w/ the story or way of play if you choose someone else, 2. The only thing you can get with the points are the resolutions. Yet, seemingly meaningless because it’s all canon, 3. Unlike the limitations in OG, they’ve gone hell on earth to give all the clues for CT. Honestly I can feel they're shouting lol, 4. Equally made Aerith and Tifa important. Also their expansion in ToTP (like retconned Ranka-Sheryl in Macross Frontier), 5. Zack is back. But, the resolution you get isn’t exactly pointless. Like Nomura says, it reflects the player's choice. A director's artistic choice. Personally, I usually don’t bother with what's canon or not, because everything is there for a reason/intention. It’s all connected to the story they want to tell you, like a murder mystery. These are clues. Though I said I’m not, yet I’m going to assert that tifa is the canon choice every time you’re tasked to decide. If you got Barret, his would remind "Player, you should have known cloud’s jealous with anything about tifa, therefore he will prioritize her". Aerith’s “Player, you should have known about the HW in OG, same way you got her death flag here. If you understood what happened with HW then he will prioritize her". Barret’s Remake while Aerith's OG. With Tifa's it’s her’s alone. Bringing up Aerith isn't anti, but pro CT. It’s related to his goal to impress her and got caught he wasn’t suave. Btw the “dead and buried” as pro CA is too psychotic, wtf??? We need to keep the context always, tifa’s despair has nothing to do with romance. BUT if it were, she gets hugged by true cloud while being surrounded by the same flowerS. Like "Not true, I'm still here Tifa".…………...I’d rather we stay with it not being related to romance.
Sorry for the late reply, life happens. I still want to post my take on CA’s nature (and other things) because while I did felt it to be “spiritual” (because FB’s thoru is like that tbh) I didn’t entertain it, but I did find something (hope it makes sense and doesn’t offend). So thank you for mentioning that! hmm If I sound over-confident or arrogant, that’s not the case at all. I’m just describing what I’m seeing and it’s been a long time since I’ve done analysis on my own accord (it’s usually forced on me haha).
Still everything is a possibility because despite asserting, I’m not SE nor Nojima. But I hope I didn’t sound so absurd and correct me if I’m wrong because this franchise is so huge! Actually I’d like to ask if this topic is already done? Because I would really hate to be a noise. This is my first time contributing to forums like this so I’m a bit slow on the uptake haha. Any advice would be kindly appreciated. Thank you!
