Yeah, it seems pretty evident that similar to AC, it’s not just that Sephiroth wants a large mass of people to be killed, it’s that he wants the conditions of the death to maximize an ongoing climate of negative emotions that he can corrupt into a black lifestream. The fact that the manner Sephiroth is going about it allows him to troll and mess with Rufus is an added bonus for him (plus as Ody said it is possible Sephiroth also has incorporated some aspect of Glenn into his arsenal as well, which can act as motivated tool).
Hmm. It would be weird to spend that much time setting up Glenn and then make it not relevant because it's not actually him. I am hoping the real one is alive or exerting influence, somehow., even though that opens a can of worms about free willed Sephiroth clones.
If he wasn't very dedicated to screwing with Rufus, he would just kill him like his father. That would actually start the war he wants, because Heidegger already wants Wutai war 2 anyway. That was a whole thing in Remake, where Prez and Heidi keep blaming Wutai for stuff AVALANCHE is doing, because they already want to renew the war.
As I said, Sephiroth being able to mess with and troll Rufus is an added bonus for him, that isn’t the same as being super personally dedicated to messing with Rufus. Also just killing Rufus wouldn’t necessarily automatically start the war with Wutai, especially since killing President Shinra Sr. didn’t immediately start one. Sephiroth would have to stage the manner of Rufus’ death so that it seemed that it was carried out and coordinated by Wutai forces. And evidently that isn’t worth the effort to spend the time doing compared to letting things spiral on their own.
Alternatively, out Rufus as Sarruff, creating an instant double civil war are hardline Wutai and Shinra loyalists are massively betrayed and turn on their masters.
One of the things that isn't very clear is why the Wutai war hasn't already kicked off.
Hawks:
Prez, Heidegger, Scarlet, Rufus (until his father's death), Shinra Resistance Committee (or else they wouldn't be the Shinra Resistance Committee), Sephiroth via Glenn.
Doves:
Reeve, Palmer, Godo. The first two have no power and Godo was overthrown specifically because he was a Dove. Rufus might secretly be a dove now that his father is dead but can't openly admit that.
Hojo is neutral, not because he's a pacifist but because he outright doesn't care.
All of the powerful people are hawks who have been spending their screentime doing false flag operations. In addition, Sonon and Yuffie outright broke into Shinra HQ and slaughtered a bunch of Shinra staff, and Yuffie tried to assassinate Rufus on live TV!
How did a peace treaty get signed in the first place with these people in charge, and why has President Shinra not already kicked off the war years ago if he wants it so badly? He can't openly break the terms, maybe, but he could just fabricate an excuse if he wanted, which is something Shinra does all the time (see: Sector 7)
This wouldn't matter so much, but a big hook into part 3 is whether/how the Wutai war kicks off, and Sephiroth concocting elaborate schemes to bring it about, but why does he need to when everyone with power already wants a war anyway, and has for years? The party will have to play some kind of role in this, but it's difficult to do that if the setup doesn't make sense to begin with.
The other thing is, Rufus can see whispers. They wouldn't have written that if it never comes up again, so he must have some kind of role in the whisper plot later? Rufus and Sephiroth agree that the Wutai war is a pointless distraction, but it's a pointless distraction that Sephiroth goes to significant effort to bring about even though he also doesn't care about it, and spends so much time screwing with specifically Rufus' head in the process, even at the expense of kicking off the war?. The story is clashing with itself, because Wutai war is a pointless distraction that is also really important, and somehow hasn't happened yet even though everyone with power already wanted it.
There's been so much time spent setting this up narratively, are they going to spend a big chunk of part 3 on something we have already been told doesn't really matter? Or are they going to drop the hook like they did the Remake Whispers? Tough thing to write either way.
Alternatively, out Rufus as Sarruff, creating an instant double civil war are hardline Wutai and Shinra loyalists are massively betrayed and turn on their masters.
Rufus being hypothetically killed by just Sephiroth wearing Glenn's wouldn't necessarily be enough to prove it was coordinated by Wutai as a whole. Also Rufus is essentially being outed as Sarruff, Sephiroth is just stretching out the process.
The other thing is, Rufus can see whispers. They wouldn't have written that if it never comes up again, so he must have some kind of role in the whisper plot later? Rufus and Sephiroth agree that the Wutai war is a pointless distraction, but it's a pointless distraction that Sephiroth goes to significant effort to bring about even though he also doesn't care about it, and spends so much time screwing with specifically Rufus' head in the process, even at the expense of kicking off the war?. The story is clashing with itself, because Wutai war is a pointless distraction that is also really important, and somehow hasn't happened yet even though everyone with power already wanted it.
There's been so much time spent setting this up narratively, are they going to spend a big chunk of part 3 on something we have already been told doesn't really matter? Or are they going to drop the hook like they did the Remake Whispers? Tough thing to write either way.
Sephiroth isn't really spending that much significant effort to troll Rufus and bring about war though? Also Sephiroth screwing with Rufus isn't necessarily coming at the expense of kicking off the war either. And Rebirth didn't drop the hook with the Whispers from Remake, it just didn't answer everything about them.
I thought the ending was great. It was very sad seeing the party (except for Cloud) react to Aerith's death. I love that Cloud has no idea what is going on and is looking crazy though. I'd bet it makes it even harder for the rest of the team to mourn Aerith. My only wish was they leaned even more into Cloud's delusions and had him actually kill Aerith. It'd would've been very interesting to have Cloud be the final boss
I feel like the second in command of Wutai's current ruler apparently killing Shinra's President would be relevant to igniting the war. It might not prove it, but none of the other stuff that happened proved anything either. No one needs proof, just an excuse to do the thing they already want to do anyway.
If he's maintaining Glenn all the time, that seems like a good amount of effort. He'd have to be good enough at passing as him to fool Matt and Lucia. If the real Glenn is alive and actually running Wutai, that's less effort, but the Glenn that broadcast the empty chair has to be Sephiroth, because that is specifically screwing with Rufus at the expense of the war, because it makes Glenn and the SRC seem really stupid to not notice that their leader wasn't there.
The Whispers are no longer doing Fatey stuff. Across Remake, they had to keep constantly interfering to keep things on track. They're no longer interfering, but somehow things stayed on track anyway. Remake ends making a big deal about the 'boundless, terrifying freedom' that they now have, but nothing has been done with that so far.
I feel like the second in command of Wutai's current ruler apparently killing Shinra's President would be relevant to igniting the war. It might not prove it, but none of the other stuff that happened proved anything either. No one needs proof, just an excuse to do the thing they already want to do anyway.
If he's maintaining Glenn all the time, that seems like a good amount of effort. He'd have to be good enough at passing as him to fool Matt and Lucia. If the real Glenn is alive and actually running Wutai, that's less effort, but the Glenn that broadcast the empty chair has to be Sephiroth, because that is specifically screwing with Rufus at the expense of the war, because it makes Glenn and the SRC seem really stupid to not notice that their leader wasn't there.
Well, regardless of whether having Glenn kill Rufus would be sufficient to immediately reignite the war with Wutai, Sephiroth is already getting the process done his own way while having the added benefit of getting to mess with Rufus. So if messing with Rufus is something Sephiroth enjoys and he can achieve his goals without killing Rufus, there's not much compelling Sephiroth to murder Rufus at the present moment.
And the TV broadcast where Viceroy "Sarruf" was a "no show", that wasn't something that happened at the expense of fomenting war, if anything making the SRC seem stupid more likely contributed to creating even more unease and destabilization of the current paradigms.
Also Sephiroth has never indicated that utilizing Sephiroth copies for purposes of impersonation and whatnot takes much effort.
The Whispers are no longer doing Fatey stuff. Across Remake, they had to keep constantly interfering to keep things on track. They're no longer interfering, but somehow things stayed on track anyway. Remake ends making a big deal about the 'boundless, terrifying freedom' that they now have, but nothing has been done with that so far.
As I've stated multiple times here and on the discord the end of Remake didn't necessarily mean that the overall story of FFVII was going to be majorly changed going forwards (like the devs have literally been stating that since 2020. But the nature of the Whispers have most certainly been effected what with them now being split into white and black factions, which is almost certainly one of the consequences of their defeat in part 1. Like the fact that Whispers still showed up in Rebirth and interactecd with the plot is literally the definition of their hook not being dropped.
I’ve just rewatched compilations of people sobbing at the ending of Final Fantasy X. That shot of Tidus fading with the pyreflies around him - you know the one - still moves me 20 years later.
We could have had that. We could have had people talking about how Rebirth absolutely floored them; broke them into a million pieces.
I believe the reputation of a well told story can form part of a game’s hype and word of mouth. We’ve just seen precisely that with Clair Obscur.
Silent Hill 2 didn’t come out of the gate in 2001 immediately hailed as a videogame narrative classic. That reputation took decades to cement. Consequently, its remake has already sold better than the original did.
My point is: there didn’t have to be a choice between “playing it straight” and getting people engaged and hyped for what’s next. A story well told can live forever.
Instead, this is the discourse we have to endure for the next 3 years:
“WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT THE END OF FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH”
“THIS LATEST THEORY BLOWS ALL OTHERS OUT OF THE WATER”
“THIS IS ALL JUST ONE BIG GAME OF CHESS BETWEEN SEPHIROTH AND AERITH”
…
Take me with you Tidus. I want to go to the farplane, too.
I couldn't care less if streamers are crying or not, I want to see how Cloud's arc develops with this new approach to his perspective. Then when I have context of how it fits together as a whole I'll properly judge and assess how I feel about it, maybe I'll like it or maybe I won't. Re-allocated how and when emotional beats are developed doesn't necessarily bother me but we'll see how it's done.
I couldn't care less if streamers are crying or not, I want to see how Cloud's arc develops with this new approach to his perspective. Then when I have context of how it fits together as a whole I'll properly judge and assess how I feel about it, maybe I'll like it or maybe I won't. Re-allocated how and when emotional beats are developed doesn't necessarily bother me but we'll see how it's done.
Fair. I just don’t see Rebirth, on its own, being rated for its story in the long run. Not as other games in the series are. It doesn’t really have an ending. Instead it has a “superposition” that allows the devs to follow whatever way the wind is blowing later on. It’s a total cop-out.
And this is the problem. We’re bargaining that Part 3 will redeem this ending. This story. Did Part 2 redeem Part 1’s ending? No, it walked it back - it undermined it. Final Fantasy VII Remake is now, in 2025, a weaker story, because of its sequel. The promise of “fighting fate” and radical change amounts to not a lot in Rebirth.
I now understand why Jacob Geller went from rating Remake as his number one game of 2020, to not rating Rebirth at all in 2024.
I’ve updated my vote to option 1. The more distance I get from this ending, the more I dislike it. I am really lacking hope for Part 3.
Apologies for being so negative, but see it my way: I spent 15 months stealing whatever free time I could find to get through this gigantic story, and after all that time, it didn’t have the courtesy to leave me with closure.
And this is the problem. We’re bargaining that Part 3 will redeem this ending. This story. Did Part 2 redeem Part 1’s ending? No, it walked it back - it undermined it. Final Fantasy VII Remake is now, in 2025, a weaker story, because of its sequel. The promise of “fighting fate” and radical change amounts to not a lot in Rebirth.
I mean that seems to be more an issue of audience perception than the devs actually "walking back" on or "undermining" anything. As the devs have been pretty consistent in stating even since 2020 how the remake project overall is going to follow the overarching OG plot.
I mean, they were never likely to do it, that would be a big risk to take... but then maybe don't dedicate so much time in part one of your three part story on breaking free of fate when you know you can't/don't intend to deliver on it?
Is it an audience perception issue to take the product at face value based on what's in the game itself? If the counterpoint is primarily in interviews and not in the product itself, isn't that an issue of storytelling?
I mean, they were never likely to do it, that would be a big risk to take... but then maybe don't dedicate so much time in part one of your three part story on breaking free of fate when you know you can't/don't intend to deliver on it?
Is it an audience perception issue to take the product at face value based on what's in the game itself? If the counterpoint is primarily in interviews and not in the product itself, isn't that an issue of storytelling?
That's only an issue if people solely interpret "breaking free of fate" as having to equal "the core plot points (like Aerith's death) of the FFVII story aren't going to happen any longer", when it's in actuality a far broader thesis.
Furthermore, stories can also spend time setting up an initial thematic argument only to then later propose a thematic counterargument later on.
Aerith's death is one of the things that is unlikely to change, because to change that you either have to make Sephiroth change his mind, or have the power to stop him.
The plot points were the only things that the Remake Whispers were defending. They didn't interfere to defend Whole Eater 14 or Shinra trooper 141 from the party because it wasn't its fate to die yet. They only acted to preserve the plot of FF7, if it wasn't about the core plot points, the Whispers didn't care about it. The audience didn't come up with that on their own, it was given to them by the game they were playing.
Aerith's death is one of the things that is unlikely to change, because to change that you either have to make Sephiroth change his mind, or have the power to stop him.
The plot points were the only things that the Remake Whispers were defending. They didn't interfere to defend Whole Eater 14 or Shinra trooper 141 from the party because it wasn't its fate to die yet. They only acted to preserve the plot of FF7, if it wasn't about the core plot points, the Whispers didn't care about it. The audience didn't come up with that on their own, it was given to them by the game they were playing.
Not all of the plot points the Whispers involved themselves with were of equal core significance though, and there were plenty of significant moments that the Whispers weren't involved in during part 1 that still occurred even without their interference. Meaning even if Whispers aren't there things still by default tend to go the way of the overall OG story, regardless of external supernatural intervention. Hence the inherent issue in assuming that without Whispers that automatically means the core story is guaranteed to change.
And as I previously stated stories can also spend time setting up an initial thematic argument only to then later propose a thematic counterargument later on. Like I am not denying that the devs wanted fans to speculate and wonder if Aerith's fate would change, but encouraging that uncertainty doesn't mean that the devs can't still ultimately go with the later thematic counterargument (i.e. that there are still certain things in life that are unavoidable/inevitable).
Ah, the classic TLS experience, long conversations despite very nearly being in agreement to begin with.
Obviously not everything has to change,as I've said, without addressing the causes of Aerith's death you can't easily change it but something should, because the party worked really really hard to break free of the Whispers if if nothing changes that was for nothing.
I'm all for thematic shifts, too many stories are restricted by their themes from making a more complicated world, but you don't want the players going 'fighting free of fate was a waste of time'.
The Whispers didn't intervene with everything, but they did intervene pretty regularly indicating that keeping things on track involved a lot of spinning plates. If none of it is necessary, what was the point of defeating them at all?
Rebirth's main characters were remarkably passive, they didn't change much at all of their own power. The changes that did occur happened because other characters (Hojo, Don Corneo, Gi Nattak, Rufus) did different things they had to react to. When they got new knowledge that should have changed their behaviours, they stuck to the old script. Encountering the baby weapon in Corel reactor, should have been a big deal, but they were just 'no, Yuffie, we are not playing the fishing mini-game' and moved on, because it wasn't in the old script, and therefore they couldn't get sidetracked too long.
Everyone massively underreacts to Cloud attacking Tifa with sword in hand, because they can't derail the old script. Cloud killing people under Sephiroth's control should change how they react to him in major ways, but it doesn't.
Nibelheim is no longer on the way, but they end up there anyway for the fairly flimsy reason of getting that terminal (there must be easier ones to get to), cause gotta stick to the script, even the parts that don't apply.
Ah, the classic TLS experience, long conversations despite very nearly being in agreement to begin with.
Obviously not everything has to change,as I've said, without addressing the causes of Aerith's death you can't easily change it but something should, because the party worked really really hard to break free of the Whispers if if nothing changes that was for nothing.
I'm all for thematic shifts, too many stories are restricted by their themes from making a more complicated world, but you don't want the players going 'fighting free of fate was a waste of time'.
The Whispers didn't intervene with everything, but they did intervene pretty regularly indicating that keeping things on track involved a lot of spinning plates. If none of it is necessary, what was the point of defeating them at all?
Rebirth's main characters were remarkably passive, they didn't change much at all of their own power. The changes that did occur happened because other characters (Hojo, Don Corneo, Gi Nattak, Rufus) did different things they had to react to. When they got new knowledge that should have changed their behaviours, they stuck to the old script. Encountering the baby weapon in Corel reactor, should have been a big deal, but they were just 'no, Yuffie, we are not playing the fishing mini-game' and moved on, because it wasn't in the old script, and therefore they couldn't get sidetracked too long.
Everyone massively underreacts to Cloud attacking Tifa with sword in hand, because they can't derail the old script. Cloud killing people under Sephiroth's control should change how they react to him in major ways, but it doesn't.
Nibelheim is no longer on the way, but they end up there anyway for the fairly flimsy reason of getting that terminal (there must be easier ones to get to), cause gotta stick to the script, even the parts that don't apply.
I'm not sure what to think yet about how fate is being realized contextually to this story, gonna wait till part 3 before I make my analysis.
However, just an aside:
The party doesn't react to Cloud attacking Tifa because they don't see it happen. Cloud and Tifa are on a level directly above Barret and the rest. They just see Tifa falling from above into the mako, Barret isn't slapping Cloud because he like "Hey you're being a big meany trying to kill Tifa, you dserve a slap in the face!" he's just trying to get Cloud to snap out of his daze. I see a lot of people mis-interpret this, no wonder it factors in to how they perceive how the story is going.
Ah, the classic TLS experience, long conversations despite very nearly being in agreement to begin with.
Obviously not everything has to change,as I've said, without addressing the causes of Aerith's death you can't easily change it but something should, because the party worked really really hard to break free of the Whispers if if nothing changes that was for nothing.
I'm all for thematic shifts, too many stories are restricted by their themes from making a more complicated world, but you don't want the players going 'fighting free of fate was a waste of time'.
The Whispers didn't intervene with everything, but they did intervene pretty regularly indicating that keeping things on track involved a lot of spinning plates. If none of it is necessary, what was the point of defeating them at all?
That something doesn't have to be Aerith's death or the overall skeleton of the OG though, there are plenty of other changes to the plot the remake project that the defeat of the Whispers can meta-justify. But interpreting the overall plot beats of the OG as some "bad future" that the party was desperately trying to avoid* I think is a grave misunderstanding of what part 1's climax was trying to do, which was more about accepting that in order to save the Planet they need to accept and embracing the uncertainty of the future.
*(like Motomu Toriyama even stated in interviews that the party doesn't understand the glimpses of "memories of the future" that they see in chapter 18 of part 1)
And if part of the point of the remake project is to also partially make a counter-argument to its initial argument, an initial argument still needs to be made in the first place.
Rebirth's main characters were remarkably passive, they didn't change much at all of their own power. The changes that did occur happened because other characters (Hojo, Don Corneo, Gi Nattak, Rufus) did different things they had to react to. When they got new knowledge that should have changed their behaviours, they stuck to the old script. Encountering the baby weapon in Corel reactor, should have been a big deal, but they were just 'no, Yuffie, we are not playing the fishing mini-game' and moved on, because it wasn't in the old script, and therefore they couldn't get sidetracked too long.
Everyone massively underreacts to Cloud attacking Tifa with sword in hand, because they can't derail the old script. Cloud killing people under Sephiroth's control should change how they react to him in major ways, but it doesn't.
Nibelheim is no longer on the way, but they end up there anyway for the fairly flimsy reason of getting that terminal (there must be easier ones to get to), cause gotta stick to the script, even the parts that don't apply.
Encountering the baby weapon was a big deal, but that doesn't mean that a completely different plot should have happened instead. And as Golden Ear mentioned already, no one else in the party actually witnessed Cloud attacking Tifa. But the party does react to Cloud resorting to more lethal and merciless behavior (they just aren't going to abandon and/or kick him out of the group), but the party is arguably even more concerned and perturbed about Cloud at the climax and end of Rebirth than they were in the OG.
As for Nibelheim, Rebirth actually justifies why the party goes there compared to the OG where there was no justification for going to Nibelheim in-narrative. The only reason why the party goes to Nibelheim in the OG is because it is simply the only place that hasn't been visited yet and can be reached after completing Cosmo Canyon. So there is far more justification for going to Nibelheim in Rebirth than there ever was in the OG.
The party doesn't react to Cloud attacking Tifa because they don't see it happen. Cloud and Tifa are on a level directly above Barret and the rest. They just see Tifa falling from above into the mako, Barret isn't slapping Cloud because he like "Hey you're being a big meany trying to kill Tifa, you dserve a slap in the face!" he's just trying to get Cloud to snap out of his daze. I see a lot of people mis-interpret this, no wonder it factors in to how they perceive how the story is going.
Cloud does. I can just barely see Tifa getting past it (if by treating him much more warily), but when he wakes up he should shatter. Essentially his prime directive is to protect Tifa from harm, this would be the point where he goes 'screw this, I'm going to go live in the forest away from everyone I might hurt and grow mushrooms.'
That something doesn't have to be Aerith's death or the overall skeleton of the OG though, there are plenty of other changes to the plot the remake project that the defeat of the Whispers can meta-justify
Like what? What, so far, has been the impact of that?
I think is a grave misunderstanding of what part 1's climax was trying to do, which was more about accepting that in order to save the Planet they need to accept and embracing the uncertainty of the future.
So... what they were already doing anyway? Without future knowledge, the future is uncertain to begin with, giving them precognition and having them go 'we need to stop using precognition, it's bad', just brings them back to square one.
And if part of the point of the remake project is to also partially make a counter-argument to its initial argument, an initial argument still needs to be made in the first place.
We should be seeing the foreshadowing for it by now, then. We should be encountering the bad effects of defeating the whispers across rebirth, setting up the counterargument in part 3. The characters should have been thinking and talking about the whispers, discovering more about them and being given cause to wonder 'did we do the right thing?' Part 3 is very late to start doing that, especially with so much other plot to get through as well. It might still be possible to pull off, but not enough was done with it in part 2 to make me confident that they will.
This does that kind of thing very well, movie one looks like a standard 'break the system' power fantasy, and then revealing that 'the One' is just another part of the system and the winning move is making peace. The breadcrumbs are there, though, with Agent Smith talking about the previous matrixes in movie one.
Encountering the baby weapon was a big deal, but that doesn't mean that a completely different plot should have happened instead.
But the party does react to Cloud resorting to more lethal and merciless behavior (they just aren't going to abandon and/or kick him out of the group), but the party is arguably even more concerned and perturbed about Cloud at the climax and end of Rebirth than they were in the OG.
They're concerned, but don't do anything different, that's the point. It's pretty awkwardly placed, since the party has been slaughtering dozens of Shinra staff since the beginning and will continue to do so in part 3. OG other party member responded to him attacking Aeris (barehanded) by knocking him out.
In the OG version, Nibelheim is on the way, they have to pass through it to get over the mountains. But you could get those terminals anywhere with a Shinra presence, like Gold Saucer, Costa, or Rocket Town, and since they have the Bronco they're not on a fixed route.
Cloud does. I can just barely see Tifa getting past it (if by treating him much more warily), but when he wakes up he should shatter. Essentially his prime directive is to protect Tifa from harm, this would be the point where he goes 'screw this, I'm going to go live in the forest away from everyone I might hurt and grow mushrooms.'
What do we see: He has some flashes of seeing Tifa saying "Here's my scar" then he has a flash of her falling off the edge.
Later he says, he pushed her but is it in the sense of him realizing that he tried to kill her? Or does his memories make him think he must have done it accidentally? We don't see him remembering swiping the sword.
My take is that he feels guilty about pushing her off but he doesn't know that he did intentionally.
Cloud does. I can just barely see Tifa getting past it (if by treating him much more warily), but when he wakes up he should shatter. Essentially his prime directive is to protect Tifa from harm, this would be the point where he goes 'screw this, I'm going to go live in the forest away from everyone I might hurt and grow mushrooms.'
Regardless of whether he consciously remembered attacking Tifa or not, I disagree that should be where he completely shatters. The amount they had him shutdown in Rebirth where he needed Barret smacking him up to get him out of his stupor was a perfectly appropriate level.
In the meta-sense all the numerous ways Rebirth differs from the OG, like Cloud being more suspicious of Tifa, the party encountering Yuffie in Junon instead of a forest battle, Rufus proposing a truce/collaboration with Cloud and co., the party crossing on a cruise ship instead of cargo ship, Dyne not being in charge of Corel prison, the baby Weapons, the Gongaga scenario being completely new, etc.
So... what they were already doing anyway? Without future knowledge, the future is uncertain to begin with, giving them precognition and having them go 'we need to stop using precognition, it's bad', just brings them back to square one.
Yes, but with even more uncertainty, and it wasn't about "using precognition is bad", it was also about how the party thought that the fated future they were seeing future visions of was a "bad future" where the planet got destroyed (despite us the non-newbie know otherwise), Motomu Toriyama even stated that the party didn't understand what they were seeing (as evidenced by Red XIII saying that if they lost the fight against Whisper Harbinger, those future visions would be guaranteed, even though as we in the Terrier stamp world-line, the party losing the fight doesn't put them on the path to that future at all).
We should be seeing the foreshadowing for it by now, then. We should be encountering the bad effects of defeating the whispers across rebirth, setting up the counterargument in part 3. The characters should have been thinking and talking about the whispers, discovering more about them and being given cause to wonder 'did we do the right thing?' Part 3 is very late to start doing that, especially with so much other plot to get through as well. It might still be possible to pull off, but not enough was done with it in part 2 to make me confident that they will.
This does that kind of thing very well, movie one looks like a standard 'break the system' power fantasy, and then revealing that 'the One' is just another part of the system and the winning move is making peace. The breadcrumbs are there, though, with Agent Smith talking about the previous matrixes in movie one.
The counter-argument isn't that defeating the Whispers was a bad thing, the thematic counter-argument is that even when your fate isn't being influenced by external forces certain things are still inevitable, i.e. the theme of loss and whatnot.
They're concerned, but don't do anything different, that's the point. It's pretty awkwardly placed, since the party has been slaughtering dozens of Shinra staff since the beginning and will continue to do so in part 3. OG other party member responded to him attacking Aeris (barehanded) by knocking him out.
The amount of concern they express and show is appropriate to what is feasible for them. Like it would be even more unnatural if the party decided to kick Cloud of out the party or like try to imprison him, like the party isn't going to abandon Cloud.
Also the issue the party has with Cloud's behavior isn't the fact he's killing in the heat of battle (since they almost certainly do so as well) it's the fact that Cloud becomes unnecessarily brutal in his killing and also tries to kill enemies he has already soundly defeated.
In the OG version, Nibelheim is on the way, they have to pass through it to get over the mountains. But you could get those terminals anywhere with a Shinra presence, like Gold Saucer, Costa, or Rocket Town, and since they have the Bronco they're not on a fixed route.
Yes, I know in the OG that Nibelheim has to be passed through to get over the mountains, but my point is that nothing in the story tells Cloud and the party that they should go through the mountains after Cosmo Canyon. The game just relies on the fact that the player will going further north of their own accord. Hence my point of there being little in-game justification.
Also in Rebirth they specified how normal terminals only grant limited access and they needed one with more unlimited access which was only in Shinra Manor. Also the special terminal wasn't the only reason they chose to go to Nibelheim, the Sephiroth copy encountered at the end of Cosmo Canyon in Rebrith muttering Nibelheim is also what prompts the party to travel to Nibelheim.
I mean, if they go to the trouble of having Cloud attack Tifa and then have no one notice or react to it, why do it in the first place? This is the thing, the characters are caught between stories because they have to follow the old script, even when they should react differently.
Aeris' response to Cloud attacking her in the OG was to leave the group. It's weird to have a scene like that that should have a major impact on everything and then not have it make an impact because 'luckily, no one noticed, otherwise we would have to address this somehow'
In the meta-sense all the numerous ways Rebirth differs from the OG, like Cloud being more suspicious of Tifa, the party encountering Yuffie in Junon instead of a forest battle, Rufus proposing a truce/collaboration with Cloud and co., the party crossing on a cruise ship instead of cargo ship, Dyne not being in charge of Corel prison, the baby Weapons, the Gongaga scenario being completely new, etc.
But all of that kind of thing was already happening in Remake and didn't prompt the Whispers to interfere. There already were lots of new quests, scenes that happen differently and expanded stuff in Remake, and the Whispers never protected any of that. They only interfered when the main plot got derailed, and were very protective of that and only that. And none of it was driven by our leads making new decisions, something would happen like an extra attack they had to react to.
(premature post, sorry)
The counter-argument isn't that defeating the Whispers was a bad thing, the thematic counter-argument is that even when your fate isn't being influenced by external forces certain things are still inevitable, i.e. the theme of loss and whatnot.
But...none of them thought they had absolute power to avoid all loss in the first place? They didn't blame the whispers for Sephiroths actions.
The amount of concern they express and show is appropriate to what is feasible for them. Like it would be even more unnatural if the party decided to kick Cloud of out the party or like try to imprison him, like the party isn't going to abandon Cloud.
Also the issue the party has with Cloud's behavior isn't the fact he's killing in the heat of battle (since they almost certainly do so as well) it's the fact that Cloud becomes unnecessarily brutal in his killing and also tries to kill enemies he has already soundly defeated.
As opposed to all the people the others let go? It's especially funny because the battle system is built on 'great, the enemy is staggered, dogpile them when they're defenceless'.
In the OG they were willing to knock him out if necessary, Aeris even left the group after he attacked her, but they just... don't react.
The terminals are not uncommon, there was one in Cosmo Canyon but Bugenhagen had dismantled it. They didn't know they needed a special one until they got to Nibelheim.
So, why was the Sephiroth copy muttering Nibelheim? Sephiroth didn't need them to go there, and unlike in the OG he wasn't in the manor.
