Gym Leader DevilI have other responses to answer in my Inbox, but I am
not going to stay up all night answering everybody.
Somehow, you guys think that one person can easily dash off responses to like six(?) different people in an hour or something.
Back at GameFaqs in like 1998, we paired one Cloti person up with one Clerith person, and those two debated one another. It made it a helluva lot easier than trying to answer everyone.
Of course, there were
many more Clerith people available to debate at that time, but everybody answering and expecting a response is ridiculous, IMO.
At any rate, I just picked one to answer tonight, and it's you -
Its easy to get swamped, I agree. I'll just run with your response to me for now since I got the honor.
Fair enough. If others want to do it that way, too, it's fine with me. Just be aware that if I get 5 or 6 replies to one post, you're not going to get an immediate answer.
Seems reasonable.
I'll stop using my tactics if you stop using yours. And no, I don't concede because you've yet to prove me wrong.
As always, your inability to accept proof does not in fact change the fact that it is indeed proof.
Out of consideration, the same way I put yin-chan's name on my sig since she created it. I didn't use the name of the sensei because I wasn't given the name of the sensei.
Fair enough. If not for all the repetitions of this and calling out of me when I similarly give folk their due credit, I think we'd be in perfect agreement for once.
Yes, it was an accident. Quex had PM'd me with responses from several people and color coded them - Tres was light blue, Ryu was green, Discord was purple, etc. I thought *that* would be a pain to read, so I changed everything to default color and put their names in instead. At least, I *thought* it was default color. Sorry, my mistake.
Accidents happen, seems your heart was in the right place at least. This is why I just remove all color formatting tags from quotes, thus leaving them in my customary shade of kick-ass red
Oh - so I can't quote Shroudy, but you can speak for Tres? Funny how I'm wrong about everything in your eyes, but I'm right about everything in the eyes of other Clerith people.
I don't claim to speak for Tres. Speculate on what he meant, yes, and I am overly pleased when I turn out to be correct, but I do try to avoid putting words in his mouth.
As for these many other "Clerith people," I don't see any reason to give their opinion or any evidence they might gather any weight simply because you mention their existence. I'll judge their agreement with you on its own merits, should they choose to come in sometime and throw their two cents into the thread.
Yes, I know the summary says what happened in the story.
Ok, I almost feel like we're close to a breakthrough here...
However, the Clerith date scene is used in the summary, too - is it not? I've heard Tres say many a time that he doesn't think the Clerith date scene is canon, and neither do I. So how come that doen't make the Clerith date scene canon, but it does make the HA HW scene canon?
Nope, spoke too soon. The Clerith date scene is NOT USED IN THE SUMMARY. True, they used a picture of Aerith's date for the blurb about the date. But, if you read the text that goes along with said picture, it could just as easily and sensibly been Barret or Yuffie in that picture. I repeat, going with that text the picture of Barret's date would have fit in every bit as well. It is part of the summary in as much as the date was part of the story being summarized, but no one is mentioned by name and it actually is what you claim the HW scene is: entirely optional. THAT is why the page in question does not canonize the date, it doesn't canonize ANY one date.
The HW scene, as has been explained repeatedly, is another matter entirely.
Yeah... that's probably why I keep saying the LTD is "open to interpretation". >_<
For reference, the above was said in reference to ME saying "You don't buy it because if you did you'd have to buy the "open to interpretation" damning evidence laid out for you."
So, I know you didn't mean that the way it seemed. Cause it seems like you just admitted you only say the LTD is open to interpretation because otherwise you'd have to accept Cloti as canon.
I played FFVI back in 1998, and I only played it once. I frankly don't remember what happened to Shadow. So tell me - does the game show he survived? If the game shows he survived, then fine - I accept his survival as canon. If all you're going on is that his survival is canon because his picture's in the story summary, then no - I don't accept it.
The game follows either his life or death to its logical conclusion. Divergences like that are a case of what
CAN HAPPEN. But again, the story summary tells us WHAT
DID HAPPEN. In this case, in FFVI Shadow COULD potentially die, but the story summary tells us he DID live.
The HW scene works the same way.
I've been told two different things. That's why I've switched.
I don't remember anyone here claiming Shadow both died and later appeared in the same playthrough of the game. If I'm wrong (which I am very sure I am not), I apologize, but I really haven't seen that being claimed here. Probably because such a claim is both entirely wrong and would be nuts anyway. No one told you two different things on that topic, if you saw it differently somehow that's a different matter.
Look who's talking. You're telling me that Cloti is canon because the HA HW scene is used in story summaries. So you people think you know SE's methodology good enough to go around saying that SE has proclaimed Cloti canon?
Ok, let me put it this way: we are commenting on something SE has actually done. A tangible, easily seen action on their part. We are describing what it means, with a great many forms of evidence to show that we are correct.
You are saying that IF they wanted to do something they've already done, they'd do it in a very specific way. You are entirely unable to support your conclusion that THIS is how they'd do such and such with anything at all, only make guesses. So no, your "look who's talking" does not apply.
IMO and the opinion of many other people, SE has done no such thing.
That's nice. Say hi to these many other people for me, would ya? They may be dead wrong, but I'm sure they're decent people
Once again, look who's talking. Have you asked them?
No, but unlike your blatant guessing disguised as a certainty that kicked off this mess of "look who's talking's," I can look at what they actually did with the Ultimanias and so on and see their actions. There is just a BIT of a difference between that and what you're going on about.
But they haven't canonized it. It's only canonized in your opinion.
Call it opinion all you like. You are still unable to give any credible evidence to disprove the conclusion I have come to. There is a whole lot more than simple opinion backing this up, whether you acknowledge this or not.
That's according to your interpretation only.
Yeah, I see why the words "opinion" and "interpretation" can so easily get under people's skin. Now, you can technically call my "interpretation" of the Compilation off, I suppose, with regards to its romantic portions being built entirely about Cloti.
You cannot say the same of the story summary, written by the creators, as a summary of what happened within the story. Well that you can do, but it makes you look rather foolish when you do.
Isn't that what I just said? I said that something like that would confirm it. Doesn't confirmation mean it's uncontestable?
I think you missed the implied "we'd celebrate because, unless you deny (insert body of Cloti evidence here) like a loon, such a face-sucking session would be between Cloud and Tifa" part of my post. That's kinda where the humor value of it came in.
It was implied rather than directly said because that part was irrelevant to my point. The point being that you can say "this was the perfect opportunity to canonize a pairing with an on screen makeout session" all you like, and it doesn't matter. Sure, it'd kick ass in its own way if they did such a thing, but it isn't NEEDED for us to know how events played out.
LMAO Oh, puh-lease. Then we have to go by your opinion, eh? Because it's only possible that you're right, eh? Everyone else is wrong, and we know that because of your opinion. >_< Give me a break.
Well, not EVERYONE else is wrong. Just the people who are twisting the evidence, ignoring the evidence, and making up nonsense and calling it "evidence" against the real evidence, all in order to call fact by the name opinion. So no, you give me a break and give the reading for comprehension thing a try. Embrace parsimony, as Ryu loves to say (because he's right).
Maybe he went back there because that's where he lives?
Oh and here I thought he'd left to live in the church to be closer to the memory of his dearly departed Aerith? /sarcasm Good to see you're not supporting that notion then.
And yes, he went back because he lives there. WITH HIS FAMILY.
I do think the hand reach and such favored Aerith and that she and Cloud are soul mates. However, I recognize that that's my interpretation only, and therefore it hasn't been canonized by SE. You should try recognizing the same thing. All you've got is your interpretation.
Good to see you recognize your interpretation to be nothing more than that. Intellectually I was already aware of that, but some of what you say makes it difficult to believe its not just a fall-back option for you.
And ok, I just tried to recognize that Cloti having been validated many times over, notably as part of a summary of events in the story. I tried oh so hard... but then I looked at the facts again and just couldn't do it because it HAS BEEN.
Right. That's why SE put the Clerith date picture under the title saying that love develops between the protagonists, along with a page number over the HW scene picture saying that the HW scene has two optional versions that depend on Tifa's affection level, and over a picture of the HW scene that is in both the HA and LA versions.
The Clerith picture is, as explained already, meaningless as shipping evidence due to the text that goes with it. Said text would be just as appropriate if it was a picture of Barret, and the fact that they used a picture from a non-joke date changes nothing about that. The SEPARATE PAGE noting the existence of a Deviation while not validating optionality of events within the narrative AT ALL also fails to mean what you want it to.
Why did SE even include the Clerith date picture if it has no relevance to the title of the page? What's the point of including the Clerith date picture if SE is declaring Cloti canon?
Let it go. I love Aerith and am glad they used her picture just for that, but it doesn't have a shred of relevance. If you MUST have some reason for why they used that one, remember that Yuffie and Barret are joke dates of a sort and Tifa is getting pride of place in the ACTUAL FTOIL ARTICLE. That leaves Aerith's date for the image used above the passage discussing the date scene. A passage that, again, does not so much as mention Aerith's name, nor anything else aside from the date being one of the things that is under player control. And yes, again, there is a notation of an optional deviation of the HW scene too. And unlike the date (this is the important part)
THE OPTIONALITY IS NOT STRESSED IN ANY OF THE PASSAGES CONCERNING IT. It is, indeed, version agnostic as to what happened in the story. The events of the story which are told to us in the story summary.
THAT IS HOW CANON WORKS, OK?
IF SE was declaring Cloti canon on that page, then why even show the Clerith scene? IF SE wanted to declare Cloti canon on that page, all they had to do with show the HW scene only (no Clerith date scene) and not mention that the HW scene has two versions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud.
I seem to have addressed this already, along with the previous paragraph. I'll just use the opportunity to reiterate that it doesn't matter if it was done how you would like it to be done, it was still done.
But they didn't. Instead, they showed both pairings under a title saying that romantic love develops between the protagonists, and said that both pairings are optional. That obviously means it's up to interpretation. You're the one in denial - not me.
They did not say that both pairings were optional, which is good since in the greater context of things such a statement makes no fucking sense. You continue, over and over again within a SINGLE POST to attribute meaning to a picture that is not borne out by the text that accompanies said image. Or, for that matter, the text anywhere else on that page or any other.
Why namedrop Ryu's name if he said it?
And here we go, digging at me for asking an honest question rather than just provide an honest answer. I put down Ryu's name for the same reason you gave to MY question, credit where it is due. While I am obviously not against a little heat and sarcasm in the course of a debate (it makes it fun rather than boring and academic in nature imo), this just seems silly. Still, you're welcome to it if it improves your enjoyment levels
Point is, that's what you THINK the summary says. Not everyone agrees with you. SE should be the one giving the result of the LT, not you.
I know it is what the summary says because I read the bloody summary. Said summary gave the result of the LT. Your failure, intentional or otherwise, to comprehend simple written words on a page does not change this fact.
Yes, I do believe that's what it's saying, and I think you guys have it all wrong. Many people agree with me. Many people agree with you.
You and the "many people" you refer to who actually believe what you say on this matter are wrong. I honestly don't know how to make it any more clear what the truth is, but since I hardly expected to actually change your mind I suppose it matters little.
Oh, gee - that must mean we disagree, and SE left it up to the player! What a shock!
The italicized portion of the above sentence is true, and a good example for you of what "obvious" actually means. The bolded section is an unfounded and incorrect statement that does not in any way flow from the true part of said sentence and really belongs on its own.
They've only "made it so" in your opinion - nothing more. I don't buy it, and neither do many other people.
Unless they are among those here on TLS, can we leave the "many people" out of this? I don't speak for anyone else here, but to me their opinion and any evidence they might offer hold no weight whatsoever until I have heard from them myself. Their support of your position is entirely irrelevant until they actually come in and give it themselves. Not that it will hold much more IF THEY DO, as an appeal to numbers =/= factual evidence gathered from the Compilation, its sourcebooks, and creator statements. The very things, again, that change my so called "opinion" into a well reasoned argument for the canonicity of Cloti.
1) Aerith is mentioned by putting her picture on the page with Cloud.
This is not a mention, it is a picture. Read the words and show me where she is mentioned.
2) It says the HW scene is optional by putting "page 232" at the top of the picture, which means the information on that page is included.
No matter how much you want it to, Annie, it does not say the HW scene is optional. You don't get to choose which deviation happened, or say neither happened. That is SE's job, and they made the text version agnostic in these mentions you yourself are citing for a reason. If you twist this much more, its gonna break off.
Why put CloudxAerith on the page if it's not part of what the FTOIL page is talking about?
Lovely repetition of the exact same question you've already asked at least twice in the same post. It does not merit another repetition of the answer.
Sometimes I think Clerith and Cloti people speak different languages or something. >_<
Nah, CR for instance seems to speak perfectly plain English and understand my own perfectly plain English. You only make it a "different language" through willful misunderstanding and twisting of what is said, both by the opposition you face here in the debate thrad and (much more commonly) that of the creators (post translation of course).
I said my three sources were equivalent to your three sources. I still think that. Both points are as good and as backed up by facts as the other. I do not think my three sources confirmed Clerith, and I do not think your three sources confirmed Cloti.
And I don't care if you "think" the sources you are provided as confirming Cloti or not. Good on ya for being wise enough to know there are no sources confirming Clerith, it's just another short step to admitting the rest of the truth on the matter. Your sources were not equivalent. They why of it has been explained, and I cba to post those explanations again. You'll get to them when you can, no rush.
What I said about games/movies/novellas is that I want to see the couple confirmed in the games/movies/novellas before I consider it canon.
The story summary I been going on about was a summary of the game's story. Thus it was confirmed in the game, deviation of the scene or no. Your only recourse in avoiding this has been to laughably claim that a story summary of said game is somehow not good enough.
In essence, you will never consider Cloti canon. Lucky for me, this does not change the fact that it is.
I stick by that. I do not think the games/movies/novellas have confirmed either couple.
And if the debate hinged upon your thoughts alone, that'd mean something.
No, it hasn't been mentioned in direct replies to me before this.
My bad then.
And why are you answering for Tres?
Speculating on his thoughts because he is awesome as fuck and I hope my mental processes match his. Not answering for. Why are you speaking for "many people" who aren't even present?
Yes, I understand that the two languages are very different. However, Tres said that it could have been translated as "Drink in another room", which does NOT use a possessive. So why is it *always* translated as "Drink in your room" if it can also be translated as "Drink in another room"? There must be a reason.
I'm not qualified to answer this question any more completely than I have. In point of fact, aside from the very fact that the two languages ARE highly different I cannot be sure I am correct in any way on this matter. My apologies, I really should have just trimmed that bit out of my response last time. I'll leave this for those who know what they're talking about from here.
Tifa's room isn't shown, and neither is a "master" bedroom. The only bed we see is in Cloud's office, and it's a single bed, so Tifa doesn't sleep there. That's the only room we see that we know Cloud uses, and it has a single bed.
Cot. It's a fucking cot. I have slept on cots a great many times in my life, I know one when I see one. Unless Cloud loves him some back aches, I am certain he don't sleep there.
And, might I point out, WERE it a twin bed, Cloud and Tifa could share it. I've lived with not but a twin bed while living with girls I was romantically linked to, and Tifa takes up much less space than some of them did. So even if you somehow proved that Cloud DOES sleep there, you'd be unable to prove that Tifa DOESN'T.
Also, that is not the only room we see that Cloud uses. From CoT, we know he makes use of the main bar itself. Otherwise we'd have no quote telling him "go drink in his office/elsewhere" for you to harp on in the first place
Now - have we seen that Tifa has a separate room? No. But we haven't seen anything of a "master bedroom" either, where they both sleep. So how do you know that a "master bedroom" exists? Or are you just assuming it?
Well, Tifa's gotta sleep somewhere, with or without Cloud to help her drift off
Certain events in CoT would lead one to believe that WHEREVER she sleeps, Cloud is there with her. Other than that, since I have not seen a bedroom that can be definitively be called "Tifa's" I suppose I am assuming on the matter. This does not alter the fact that you are making assumptions about the sleeping arrangements yourself, and that yours are rather less logical.
Duly noted then. Things must be needlessly complex to satisfy you.
However, you're making the same point that I've been making.
Wait... I don't... but that's... what? Really, how in the bloody hell do you get the idea that I am making the same point as you here?
Since we know it's Cloud's room and it has a bed, then why isn't it possible that Cloud sleeps there? Do you have any proof that he doesn't sleep there? Or are you just making an assumption?
For this to be the same point, it'd require a bit of editing. Lemme see here... there we go: "Since we know it's Cloud's office, and an office is a type of room, and it has a COT in it, then why is it even remotely likely that he'd be sleeping there?"
Now its my point. It is not the same as yours. Please don't try to twist my points until they are shaped like yours.
And there's no indication that he doesn't sleep there. So you're presuming every bit as much as I am.
Know what I got out of that? An admission that you are presumptuous in declaring that Cloud sleeps on a cot. Good on ya for that.
And there is no indication that he doesn't sleep there, and there's no indication of there being a "master bedroom". So why are you assuming there is one?
If for no other reason, because him sleeping on a shitty little cot in a room with no creature comforts that would befit a bedroom doesn't gel well with my knowledge of how things work, nor does it gel with what we know of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Were you not deeply in denial concerning said knowledge of CloudXTifa's relationship, I'm sure you'd see it similarly.
Probably because most people would ask when they came into the building where to put the bodies.
Ask who?
Given that Marlene and Denzel are there, I think the kids would know if there was a master bedroom where Cloud and Tifa sleep and would be able to tell the Turks.
You are mistaken. VERY mistaken. Marlene has been kidnapped by the SHM at that point. Denzel has gone with them willingly. They are at the Forgotten Capital. They are NOT AT 7th Heaven for the Turks to ask. Try again.
Point made. If we haven't seen a "master bedroom", then it hasn't been confirmed that one exists. So you are merely making an assumption that one exists.
And the bathroom example still fits. In this particular case, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ergo, I could be wrong, and so could you. My assumption at least fits with the other information we have, and keeps Tifa from being a creepy psycho stalker. Sadly, you cannot say the same. Or, as usual, you CAN say it... it'll just be false.
The ONLY confirmation is that there is a single bed in Cloud's room. Therefore, we know that Cloud could sleep there. Prove that he doesn't.
Cot, not bed. That, again, is pretty good evidence that he doesn't, though not, I admit, definitive. Now... prove that he does. And when you manage that (bwahaha), prove that him sleeping apart from Tifa would invalidate Cloti.
Fairly certain is different from absolutely certain. Fairly certain isn't good enough to confirm anything. I'm fairly certain that there's a room for Barret when he comes back to visit, but do we know that for certain?
I'm fairly certain that if Barret comes back to visit, it means he doesn't live there
So thanks for that. I'm also fairly certain that such visits are one of the reasons there is a fucking cot in Cloud's office, just as there is a sleeping space set aside in a great many people's home office space. Lastly, I am fairly certain this is irrelevant until you manage to follow the instructions in my last paragraph.
I have a phone in my bedroom, too, and there's one in the guest bedroom, and there's one in the kitchen, and there's one in the living room. Phones aren't located in just one type of room, so that doesn't mean it's his office only.
Since the downstairs phone didn't ring, it seems to me Cloud's delivery service has its own line that probably only runs into his office. Which again, makes perfect sense.
No, I'm talking about AC/ACC. This scene:
Looks exactly like the bed I had in my dorm room in college.
Wow, I am so glad I didn't go to your college. They gave us beds. That is a cot. Once again, I have slept on a cot many times, in hospitals, deer camps, etc. I know a cot when I see one.
In the first place, I doubt that Cloud would be the type to care what the furnishings in his room are like.
Maybe he is, maybe he's not. That has no bearing on the near total lack OF furnishings. There has to actually be something in there for him to care what its like.
In the second place, I just looked at the scene on AC itself. I see an overstuffed chair, a tire, plenty of photos, a mirror, a chest to put clothes in, a bunch of boxes, and what looks like a TV? Here's an enlargement:
Ok, I admit that still images give a better look at the place than the movie does. But... overstuffed chair? TV? A chest of drawers? Where the hell do you see any of this? I see the tire, some photos, what might be a mirror, I'll give you that. I also see what looks like boxes of bar supplies identical to what can be seen on the bar and at the bottom of the stairs. This... really doesn't sound like bedroom furnishings.
It's from page 7 of this series of ACC pics by Kaldea:
(links removed to reduce the wall o text effect)
Oh, and sorry for mentioning Kaldea's name. I just think it's considerate to give credit to the person who took all the pics. I hope this doesn't mean she has to come debate now. <_<
Annnnnd there is another needless dig at me. Thanks for that
And if Tifa is someone's koibito, then she's in a relationship.
Again, not necessarily. She can be desired by someone without ever even knowing it. Context tells us who desires her, and said context also shows them to be together. This isn't that hard.
And once again - why are you answering for Tres? I think he's capable of it.
100% agreed. Tres has been doing this far longer than I, he's more capable than I am honestly. But really now, I'll respond to things said in open thread if I like, aimed at me or no. If my speculation on what Tres means is wrong or even just poorly phrased, I have faith that he will say so.
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Johnny wants Tifa, too.
I once pretended to be a Clerith for the lulz. I won't say where. I decided to portray myself as the most batshit Pinker I could manage. The quote above this paragraph is what I came up with
Ok, more serious now. Johnny is not in AC/C, which is what the quote calling Tifa someone's koibito is in reference to. Further, by your own logic pertaining to the LS sequence, its pretty clear Johnny WANTED Tifa at one time. There is no indication he still does at this time.
For that matter, Barret's obviously pretty fond of Tifa, too.
No arguments here, Barret is quite fond of Tifa. I think nakama would suit them as a descriptive word just fine. Koibito, not so much. Show me even the slightest sign that Barret has romantic feelings for Tifa. Anything at all. Nothing? Then koibito does not belong in a discussion of Tifa and Barret.
Look, go out on a limb to try and twist that all you want. The only person that makes sense, in terms of Tifa being referred to as someone's koibito, is Cloud. And since the LTD is about Cloud's feelings, that's pretty damning to your case.
At any rate, you are choosing the translation of "beloved" for Case of Lifestream:White out of four possible translations. "Koibito" can also mean "lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend". Since there is no official translation, it could just as easily be translated as "Cloud is the woman's friend, lover" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart" or "Cloud is the woman's friend, boyfriend" If any one of those translations is the official translation, then it means the feeling between Cloud and Aerith is mutual, not one-sided.
I am NOT getting into a fight about koibito. I've heard bad things about the times such have broken out in the past. Not worth the effort. I will say that given the context, Tifa being a koibito WOULD make sense if translated as "girlfriend." And given the same context, describing Cloud as Aerith's
(forgive me, "the woman's") boyfriend most assuredly does not.
Trouble is, we haven't been spoon-fed anything that tells us that Cloud loves Tifa, except on an optional basis. Same thing exists with Aerith. So both are optional.
Oh we been spoonfed plenty that tells us just that. You just won't open up and accept it because SE isn't doing the right variation of "Vrooom! Here comes the plane!" for you. So, the info being fed to you is running down your chin as we speak. To continue using the spoon-feeding analogy, you need a bib.
TL;DR, it ain't optional.
Too bad. Further spelling out will be required everyone.
I applaud you for returning my derp to me, no matter how less appropriate it was when you did it. Isn't this fun?
Have I ever said we can't use non-Compilation evidence?
Sure as shit seemed like ya did.
I remember telling Tres to stop using Shadow as evidence for how the HA HW scene is canon, but as long as a game has Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa in it - why not? That's a very different thing.
Ahhhh so you DO think we can use Kingdom Hearts then? That's sad. For myself, I have standards on the matter. Compilation and official related materials (Ultimanias)/creator interviews only. FFTactics, Kingdom Hearts, etc need not apply.
Funny how Cloti's are the only people who say that.
Really? Wow shit, I'll have to tell all the folk I have known over the years who give absolutely 0 fucks about FFVII that they're apparently Cloti now.
Show me where I denied evolution. <_< No, I said that the fact that some things are right and some are wrong doesn't prove that you're the one who's right.
And ignored or twisted all the shit that does prove who is right in the process. Business as usual. I know you're not the one who brought up evolution (as an example of your wrong-headed thinking) but I see I am arguing a strawman against a strawman atm. So enough of this.
I swear I need a translator for everything I say here. <_< I've never felt that way on other forums.
I am pretty sure I understand what you're trying to say most of the time. It's still wrong and frequently disingenuous, but I grasp what you intend to convey. And no one
cares what its like at other forums. We're debating here. The fact that I am not sycophantically parroting your warped and dull points back to you is a sign of the freedom to ACTUALLY DEBATE we have here.
Oh, and while I will be PMing this to you so you can see my response, I nominate Tres' post with the awesome letter addressed to you for your NEXT response.
I been looking forward to seeing that.
.
