The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

You've made it quite clear that you ship, support, and find proof for CxA and nothing else.

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Not only that, but it seems like any explanation will do, no matter how far-fetched, so long as it doesn't point to C/T. From this position we get "mutual disinterest", "Tifa's feelings for Cloud are optional", "affection value as narrative determinant", etc., etc.

GiddyUnicorn said:

I've met Aly when she first stepped into the debate. Around 98-99 I believe, and she always maintained her support for the story's open-ended structure ever since.

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Did you participate back then? I am curious if we might have butted heads.

Overall, I'm pretty sure this is just a misunderstanding on both sides. Mistakes here and there were probably made. Not really a bad idea, if we all try to straighten it out right?

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That is what asking those direct questions was intended to do, yes.

Which is a suggested premise for the LA version am I right?

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Her premise, however, is that 'Cloud definitely loved Aerith, which is why Tifa is still jealous 2 years later,' ergo LA version.
The way she has written it does not phrase THE PREMISE as optional in the slightest.
She says Tifa is jealous, and Tifa only has reason to be jealous if Cloud still loves Aerith. This is antithetical to 'it is all optional.'

Overall, I'm pretty sure this is just a misunderstanding on both sides. Mistakes here and there were probably made. Not really a bad idea, if we all try to straighten it out right?

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Speaking for myself, I am always willing to try and see another side especially if it was a misunderstanding. But it's kinda hard to do when Anastar won't even talk to more than half of us without us going out of our way to PM her. Idk, she's only on TLS for the LTD and seems to hate the rest of the Forum without even giving it a fair chance... it makes it seem like she just hates the lot of us for no real reason. That's my view, anyway.
It's a real shame, Aly seems like a nice girl overall and it'd be cool seeing her post on other parts of the Forum, that's how you get to know people better afterall. I feel that way about anyone who only posts in the LTD thread. LTD just breeds drama, and it's a real shame people get turned away from the Forums because of it.

The LTD is pretty much the worst part of the forum as far as I'm concerned and has been for some time. We were trying to make it significantly less hostile to newcomers and actually succeeded for a few months, but then it exploded and just became too difficult to moderate and most of us just gave up. Anyone who only reads the LTD is getting a pretty poor impression of the forum, because most of it isn't as hostile or repetitive as the LTD is.

Did you participate back then? I am curious if we might have butted heads.

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I'm not sure really, I've butted heads with a lot of people, even before Aly came around.

Her premise, however, is that 'Cloud definitely loved Aerith, which is why Tifa is still jealous 2 years later, ergo LA version.'
The way she has written it does not phrase THE PREMISE as optional in the slightest.
She says Tifa is jealous, and Tifa only has reason to be jealous if Cloud still loves Aerith. This is antithetical to 'it is all optional.'

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Knowing Aly, that premise is her belief and interpretation of the story, but are we clear that Aly never said that the LA version did happen?

Sorry for the double post: (Can't find the edit button)

Speaking for myself, I am always willing to try and see another side especially if it was a misunderstanding. But it's kinda hard to do when Anastar won't even talk to more than half of us without us going out of our way to PM her. Idk, she's only on TLS for the LTD and seems to hate the rest of the Forum without even giving it a fair chance... it makes it seem like she just hates the lot of us for no real reason. That's my view, anyway.
It's a real shame, Aly seems like a nice girl overall and it'd be cool seeing her post on other parts of the Forum, that's how you get to know people better afterall. I feel that way about anyone who only posts in the LTD thread. LTD just breeds drama, and it's a real shame people get turned away from the Forums because of it.

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Well, you might not believe this, but Aly does live in a forest with her 56k modem. This really has nothing to do with hate, she barely even know you guys. She's really just struggling loading this forum on her ancient computer, she can't even see everything in her own forum. It doesn't really help the fact, that most replies to her aren't exactly nice.....So I don't exactly blame her if I was in her situation...

Edit button doesn't become available ordinarily until you've made a certain number of poasts, thanks to spambots. I'll waive it for you though.

Yeah she explained that. xD That's understandable, but it seems sometimes she can read things just fine without the use on PMs. Idk, I'm not her, I can't speak for her because that's unfair.

Anyway, it depends on what you count as rude. This thread has always been generally sarcastic and rather... forward about the opposing views. Like I said it breeds drama! xD I don't think anyone takes the LTD here personally though, and when it gets too personal the Mods are pretty good about warning people. In any case I'm sorry if she reads this and finds any of it rude, those were just my impressions. It would be nice if all of us could act civilly but the main thing is that everyone's views on what is 'rude' and what isn't conflicts as well which only leads to more conflicts, lol.
It's kind of silly that all of these misunderstandings are caused by fictional pairings. =P

GiddyUnicorn said:

I'm not sure really, I've butted heads with a lot of people, even before Aly came around.

Knowing Aly, that premise is her belief and interpretation of the story, but are we clear that Aly never said that the LA version did happen?

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Well, she has, though, but I am willing to write that off as bad phrasing on her part.
The problem, though goes beyond the LA version. It's to do with the fact she phrased her premise there AS fact.
It's to do with her constant interpolations, of her seeming quote mines, and ignoring of evidence, including bits of paragraphs or even sentences she quotes.

There was the kerfluffle when she kept saying Nomura had decided to film in hawaii because of the Flower's resembling Aerith's when the reason he said was the ocean.

There's her insistence on I will state frankly absurd ideas that she cannot seem to validate apart from her assertion- such as that the AVs have a narrative meaning, that they reflect on Cloud's own affection, and that they only count for two of the four people they exist for.

GiddyUnicorn said:

Sorry for the double post: (Can't find the edit button)

Well, you might not believe this, but Aly does live in a forest with her 56k modem. This really has nothing to do with hate, she barely even know you guys. She's really just struggling loading this forum on her ancient computer, she can't even see everything in her own forum. It doesn't really help the fact, that most replies to her aren't exactly nice.....So I don't exactly blame her if I was in her situation...

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The thing is, Giddy, we've told her to take her time. We've told her to use the stripped down 'mobile' forum skin. We've told her to wait and take as long as she likes to respond.
And no, the replies here haven't been kind. I won't even pretend we were. But Anastar's not been a bed of roses either, here or on CxA. She's also gotten offended and refused to answer responses because they called her argument silly, and because they called out an apparent and direct inconsistency on her own argument.
I understand you are trying to defend a friend. That is admirable. But to be a friend, one must also be able to turn right around and tell them when they do wrong, to recognize it.
Despite our rage at her apparently inconsistency, we really don't wish Anastar ill. But she is making it very hard to be sympathetic.

Part of the issue is, as Celes/ Arthur posted, we have different standards of rude.
To me, being called a name is rather no big deal. Hell, part of my User title comes from insults about me made on CxA.
To me, not being honest in your arguments- even if the one you're being dishonest to is yourself- THAT is a big deal.
Inconsistency in an argument is a serious issue.
Misrepresentation of an argument or evidence is a very serious issue.
That is why Anastar has been trying my patience and the patience of others, because intentionally or not, it seems Anastar is doing all of those things. Habitually.

Well, she has, though, but I am willing to write that off as bad phrasing on her part.
The problem, though goes beyond the LA version. It's to do with the fact she phrased her premise there AS fact.

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Well since you're willing to give Aly the benefit of the doubt that she didn't really state that the LA version did happen. Perhaps you can give her the benefit of the doubt that she may have meant it differently when she stated her premise. After all, a premise implies the basis of one's arguments. It's either stated or assumed...

I don't exactly have info for the rest, but I hope you're willing to give her the benefit of doubt on it as well.

The thing is, Giddy, we've told her to take her time. We've told her to use the stripped down 'mobile' forum skin. We've told her to wait and take as long as she likes to respond.

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I think she is on the mobile forum skin, I'll let her know. If not, where's the option to change it? I can't seem to find it myself...

As for the rest, yea that's pretty much how the whole drama starts. No one is completely innocent really, but perhaps it will help if we all stop assuming that we're all being intentionally rude here and just try to have some sort of compromise?

From what I heard, Aly suggested to accomodate you guys through PMs...That's her way of compromising, is that not enough?

Okay, thanks to a friend(I'm not sure if they want to remain anonymous or not) we think we found this "something between them" thing.

クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.

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... that's on page 29 of Aerith's profile. That's the only thing that becomes even close. It does imply romantic interest from HER end, but not Cloud's. Just that they become close quickly.

Knowing Aly, that premise is her belief and interpretation of the story, but are we clear that Aly never said that the LA version did happen?

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To me it's always been the same from her. She believes both couples are possible, but that Clerith makes more sense to her. It'd be like if I was arguing for the best pop, I'd say "Dr Pepper tastes the best!" Now technically I just stated that as a fact, but it's not a fact, it's my opinion. And I know this, and everyone knows this. I think that's basically what she's doing. She's not really meaning what she says is fact, but she says it that way. That might be a problem on her part, but that's how I've always read her posts.

Part of the issue is, as Celes/ Arthur posted, we have different standards of rude.

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Yeah this is a huge problem
I mean to me being called silly is just kind of teasing but I guess Anastar takes offense to it. She shouldn't, though. After all I think we're all kind of silly

I told people the LTD was better off and much nicer when I we posted in poetry form. Just saying.

Though on the subject of quote mining, I had a look at that 'apathetic' quote that was being brought up:

分岐　決戦前夜に……
宝条の暴走を止めてから大空洞へ突入するまでにくり広げられるティファとの会話場面は、ティファの好感度によって分岐する。好感度が低いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話が淡白で短め。翌朝の操縦室の場面では、ティファが「聞いてたの？」と言ってつま先をトントンとする。一方、好感度が高いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話が濃く、操縦室ではティファが「見てたの？」と恥ずかしがってへたりこむのだ（→Ｐ．２０１）。

・画像（これは、俺たちふたりにゆるされたさいごの時間かもしれないから……）
好感度が高い場合、ふたりで過ごす夜が意味深なものに……。

I don't know if the full thing has been quoted elsewhere, but I only seemed to have come across it with the parts in blue (pardon the font colouring) missing. Which is the part that says if Tifa's affection value is high, the conversation is deeper. I'm not sure what the point of leaving the latter part out is unless it's to make it seem like the book is try to paint the whole scene in a less meaningful/emotion light.

I'm also not sure what the argument about this quote was supposed to be. I figured, from quick glances at new replies to this thread in the past, that it was about the conversation shown in the game. But it kind of sounds that it's being used to determine what happened after the 'cameras stopped rolling'?

I figured it was just talking about the actual conversation you see, but to go on what isn't scene there's the caption for the accompanying screenshot (Cloud telling her that this might be the only time they have left from the high affection scene), which says that if Tifa's affection is high then the night (rather than 'conversation [scene]' used before) becomes something meaningful or significant. Complete with the old 'end a sentence like this to make it sound more dramatic...' ellipsis.

The summary of the story also contains this line for the scene:

残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"In their final remaining hours they disclose their feelings for each other, and..."

I don't really see why you would make a point of mentioning that they've told each other their feelings if it was just an apathetic and short conversation. It had already mentioned that Cloud and Tifa stayed behind alone, they could have just left it at that and moved on.

Quexinos said:

Okay, thanks to a friend(I'm not sure if they want to remain anonymous or not) we think we found this "something between them" thing.

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At this point in time, I'm not that bothered.

Anonymous or not, if people don't like I'll be just a biased Cloti again

To me it's always been the same from her. She believes both couples are possible, but that Clerith makes more sense to her. It'd be like if I was arguing for the best pop, I'd say "Dr Pepper tastes the best!" Now technically I just stated that as a fact, but it's not a fact, it's my opinion. And I know this, and everyone knows this. I think that's basically what she's doing. She's not really meaning what she says is fact, but she says it that way. That might be a problem on her part, but that's how I've always read her posts.

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It's really just saying that "coke and Dr.Peppers have the same substance" she really just prefers Dr. Pepper. Maybe it differs from one perspective to another, but she really is just stating her beliefs and not parade it as fact to me...

GiddyUnicorn said:

It's really just saying that "coke and Dr.Peppers are pretty much the same" she really just prefers Dr. Pepper. Maybe it differs from one perspective to another, but she really is just stating her beliefs and not parade it as fact to me...

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Maybe that is her intention, but the inconsistent language/arguments she is using does make her posts be read as statements of fact.

GiddyUnicorn said:

Well since you're willing to give Aly the benefit of the doubt that she didn't really state that the LA version did happen. Perhaps you can give her the benefit of the doubt that she may have meant it differently when she stated her premise. After all, a premise implies the basis of one's arguments. It's either stated or assumed...

I don't exactly have info for the rest, but I hope you're willing to give her the benefit of doubt on it as well.

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I am. That does not translate into always, mind.
I'm too familiar with the wedge strategy to allow 'It's an error' forever.

I think she is on the mobile forum skin, I'll let her know. If not, where's the option to change it? I can't seem to find it myself...

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User CP, Edit Options, near the bottom.

As for the rest, yea that's pretty much how the whole drama starts. No one is completely innocent really, but perhaps it will help if we all stop assuming that we're all being intentionally rude here and just try to have some sort of compromise?

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From what I heard, Aly suggested to accomodate you guys through PMs...That's her way of compromising, is that not enough?

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The problem with that was quite literally her timing.
It came immediately after she reposted an essay from her site and I responded to it.

Quexinos said:

Okay, thanks to a friend(I'm not sure if they want to remain anonymous or not) we think we found this "something between them" thing.

... that's on page 29 of Aerith's profile. That's the only thing that becomes even close. It does imply romantic interest from HER end, but not Cloud's. Just that they become close quickly.

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So, once again, we learn Aerith likes Cloud. And that's all.

To me it's always been the same from her. She believes both couples are possible, but that Clerith makes more sense to her. It'd be like if I was arguing for the best pop, I'd say "Dr Pepper tastes the best!" Now technically I just stated that as a fact, but it's not a fact, it's my opinion. And I know this, and everyone knows this. I think that's basically what she's doing. She's not really meaning what she says is fact, but she says it that way. That might be a problem on her part, but that's how I've always read her posts.

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Yeah, the 'best flavor of cola' thing doesn't really fly, given Anastar herself compared her belief to A RELIGION.
This isn't an opinion, it's a statement on reality.

Yeah this is a huge problem
I mean to me being called silly is just kind of teasing but I guess Anastar takes offense to it. She shouldn't, though. After all I think we're all kind of silly

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She wasn't even called silly. It was her argument re: AVs reflecting on Cloud that was called silly for all the implications it had. Implications she has readily embraced (but only for Aerith and Tifa). It is still a silly argument.

Maybe that is her intention, but the inconsistent language/arguments she is using does make her posts be read as statements of fact.

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Then just PM her to straighten it out cus I really think this is just one big misunderstanding. You'll have her complete undivided attention then, well not really, cus it might take awhile since I heard she's been getting a lot of PMs, but she'll try her best to get to you.

Nope. I am apparently a 'total jerk' and not to be replied to.

So sayeth Anastar in her post when Tres quoted my comments by way of response.

You call me silly when you're acting like a total jerk. You want an answer, then phrase it without criticism or insults.

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I am. That does not translate into always, mind.
I'm too familiar with the wedge strategy to allow 'It's an error' forever.

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I'm pretty sure there is a strategy with that, but like I said, let's try not to assume the worst on everyone here, and give people the benefit of the doubt ya?

From what I heard, Aly suggested to accomodate you guys through PMs...That's her way of compromising, is that not enough?

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You call me silly when you're acting like a total jerk. You want an answer, then phrase it without criticism or insults.

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No compromise then?

According to the admin control panel, she's on the vBulletin default forum skin.

That can be changed to the mobile one right now for her if that's what she wants to speed the page loading times up?

I've met Aly when she first stepped into the debate. Around 98-99 I believe, and she always maintained her support for the story's open-ended structure ever since.

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Then why did the purpose of her site change from 'cloud and aerith are the true intended pairing' to 'it's up to interpretation'?

and according to archive that was the first paragraph on her site all the way up to 2009, where the archive stops.

There's always a disclaimer there, that each and very author's view/essays/inputs does not reflect that of the creators. Or something to that effect.

I should know, I'm the one who told her to put it there...

Edit:

*

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Disclaimer:

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Square-Enix has given no official interpretation of the Love Triangle of Final Fantasy VII and the Compilation. The interpretations on this site are those of the authors based on the evidence provided in games, movies, books, and stories published by Square-Enix, formerly known as SquareSoft.

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It stayed there ever since she created the site....That's the one constant thing in her website.

According to the admin control panel, she's on the vBulletin default forum skin.

That can be changed to the mobile one right now for her if that's what she wants to speed the page loading times up?

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I'll let her know, see if that helps...

Who are you talking about when you say 'creators'?

People who created the game for the most part and pretty much anyone who's authorized by Square themselves I believe...

GiddyUnicorn said:

I'm pretty sure there is a strategy with that, but like I said, let's try not to assume the worst on everyone here, and give people the benefit of the doubt ya?



No compromise then?

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She's the one who won't respond to me for my being a jerk, so I guess not.

GiddyUnicorn said:

There's always a disclaimer there, that each and very author's view/essays/inputs does not reflect that of the creators. Or something to that effect.

I should know, I'm the one who told her to put it there...

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Yes, but the first paragraph of her site up til at least two years ago was 'cloud and aerith are the true intended pairing' That's NOT it's up to interpretation. That's 'I think this is the case'

The disclaimer does not disavow that opening sentence.

Where is that disclaimer on the old site? I'm not seeing it anywhere.

GiddyUnicorn said:

People who created the game for the most part and pretty much anyone who's authorized by Square themselves I believe...

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Okay I just wasn't sure if you meant 'creator of the site' as in her, or SE. Thanks for clarifying.