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Who Cares About Marlene?

1. When I was talking about Tseng using Marlene as leverage, I meant back in Midgar when he took Aerith into custody. You already pointed out that Reeve might have planned and carried out the kidnapping of Marlene all on his own. (That said, there are a range of possibilities between "Reeve sent Tseng to kidnap Marlene" and "Tseng knew nothing at all about that kidnap." They could have planned it together and use Elena to carry it out.)

2. I never said Reeve was happy about it. I said he "didn't hesitate" which is a figure of speech. But if he planned and carried it out himself, and Tseng knew nothing about it, as you have suggested, then what logically follows is that Reeve a) is capable of conceiving of the kidnapping and threatening of little girls, and b) believes that the end justifies the means. When all was said and done, he was okay with it.

3. Given Rufus's behaviour where confronting Cloud on the top of the Shinra building, I doubt Tseng has much control over whether or not Rufus puts himself in their crosshairs. Rufus seems to enjoy putting himself in danger.

4. Suppose Tseng did know who Cloud was (ex-experiment, physically enhanced, fought Sephiroth and survived) it seems to me that once he had communicated this information to Heidegger and Heidegger had communicated it to the board, that they would have done exactly what they did: let Avalanche take on the dangerous task of tracking Sephiroth. This would have been especially true a) given how many soldiers they lost taking down Zack, and given how much stronger Sephiroth is than Zack; and b) once Hojo was back on board and presumably told them about his reunion theory - that nothing could stop Cloud from following Sephiroth.

So that said, you still haven't answered my question: what exactly would Tseng, and the policy-makers who give him his orders, have done differently if they'd known who Cloud was?
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
"Did not hesitate" to me implies having no regrets or reservations about his course of action, which I'm not sure about. He actually says he didn't want to do it after he plays Marlene's voice.

That said, there are a range of possibilities between "Reeve sent Tseng to kidnap Marlene" and "Tseng knew nothing at all about that kidnap." They could have planned it together and use Elena to carry it out.)

This is true. But given that Reeve would want to keep it secret, I think if he needed a kidnapper, he'd go with the other Turks we know he's in contact with. Tseng could easily have a conflict of interest of some kind if another Exec asked him about it.

3. Given Rufus's behaviour where confronting Cloud on the top of the Shinra building, I doubt Tseng has much control over whether or not Rufus puts himself in their crosshairs. Rufus seems to enjoy putting himself in danger.

Then he should have gone with him and brought as many guards as he could. And there's still questions about Palmer, Scarlet, The other Turks, and that phonecall at the end of the Wutai subquest where the Turks are asked to 'find Cloud'. So Shinra doesn't have perfect information about where AVALANCHE is, and crushing them isn't as easy as you and/or TTM have been arguing.

let Avalanche take on the dangerous task of tracking Sephiroth. This would have been especially true a) given how many soldiers they lost taking down Zack, and given how much stronger Sephiroth is than Zack; and b) once Hojo was back on board and presumably told them about his reunion theory - that nothing could stop Cloud from following Sephiroth. ]

But they don't do that. Shinra always gets to him first when they can, they're already searching for the Temple before Cloud knows about it, they're already tracking him to Junon before Cloud knows about it.

Hojo told them nothing about the Reunion theory until they were already at the North Cave, Rufus is not very happy about it actually.

So that said, you still haven't answered my question: what exactly would Tseng, and the policy-makers who give him his orders, have done differently if they'd known who Cloud was?

Mentioned it at the mythril mine to undermine the team's trust. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but there's potential for huge gains with no real risk.

Wow, this has been a long argument.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Mentioned it at the mythril mine to undermine the team's trust. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but there's potential for huge gains with no real risk.

Wow, this has been a long argument.

Tseng also cared about Aerith's opinion of him. For all he knows, Cloud could just retort with "Tseng helped hunt down and get Zack killed" and that would be that.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I think we've probably explored our main topic as much as we can at this point, so I won't say much more on it. I think there are enough reasons to justify either interpretation, though, with things ultimately coming most down to what the Turk in Nibelheim was able to witness.

Since Crisis Core didn't show us a canon (at least for now) answer to that question, we'll just have to hope the remake gives us one. I'm not going to hold my breath, though. Who knows if they will even bother to show something like that.

I can't speak for Lic or Minato, but I want to say that after seeing Last Order, I know I viewed Crisis Core and replays of scenes from the original game through that lens of understanding. Even by the time we learned that LO was designated "a work outside the Compilation," years had passed, and I'd not only experienced CC with that understanding but also gone back through the original game examining what it meant for it to have the Turks know who Cloud was -- and it surprisingly worked.

It was something that could be added without derailing anything that was there originally, and a once odd line such as "They were...... Mako eyes" suddenly had meaning and a reason to be there. Furthermore, additional significance was added to scenes with both Cloud and the Turks. It was actually one of the better things to come out of the Compilation.

In some small ways, it improved upon the original even while so much else from the Compilation detracted.

Whether this addition was still intended to be canon by the time Crisis Core came out, I don't know. Before this discussion, I'd never had cause to doubt it. I still don't think we were meant to doubt it at that time, though, so much as that I can see how enough changed in the Nibelheim flashback's depiction and LO's status afterward that the doubt isn't unfounded.

I also don't think the remake is necessarily going to prove either of us right. Even if it definitively shows us Tseng knowing Cloud or being completely unaware of him, that won't necessarily tell us where things were in the time between CC's release and the remake coming out.

Still, it has been a fun discussion and given me a reason to torture myself with BC's existence some. :monster:
Are you forgetting that Tseng is out of commission for a large chunk of the game? Assuming he's not simply in a coma while all of that was going on, he's still out of contact with his coworkers (they don't know he's alive until they're looking for Rufus after Diamond Weapon has blown up his office).

One would imagine he would get in contact if he had literally world saving information, unless he was actually comatose the whole time.
Cloud wasn't even on the team for a couple of the huge materia missions, though, and by the time he was involved again, the others knew his whole story. I think you're overestimating the potential value of recognizing him, especially by this point of the game.

Even if that information would have still been somehow useful to Shin-Ra at that juncture (it wouldn't), the fact Tseng wasn't in contact (and we know he wasn't, as we see the moment the other Turks learn he's alive in Episode:Shin-Ra) tells us that if he wasn't in a coma, he either had no idea that AVALANCHE was interfering with the rocket plan, or he was still so injured as to be unable to do anything about it. I think we can at least easily rule out that he wasn't hale and hearty while pretending to be dead for a while.

With Reeve being his only likely contact if he was still communicating with anyone at all, that gives us even less reason to think he might have known what was happening with the huge materia missions.

Clem said:
I realize the point you're trying to make with this, but the Turks had very clearly been tipped off that AVALANCHE was heading in the direction of Gongaga, yet you have to square that point with the fact that, yes, there is Tseng and there is Scarlet in the terrorists' range. Make of that what you will, but Elena quite blatantly lets slip that "they knew we were coming"/"They were definitely waiting for us" (lines from Tifa and Red XIII respectively) -- and despite that, Tseng still allowed Cloud and co. to get as close as they did.

What that indicates to me is that their information is not perfect, so he couldn't just crush them any time he wanted. They knew something, like the general area, but not enough to know their exact location, which is why AVALANCHE catches them chatting about their crushes rather than lying in wait.
I'd argue the game wants us to think otherwise ("They were definitely waiting for us"). That they were out in the open speaking so casually rather than hiding somewhere out of sight indicates to me that they weren't there to eliminate them -- at most to keep them busy and let Reno express his disfavor.

Clem said:
Actions that other people with interests in the matter were also carrying out, both within Shin-Ra and on his own team. He's neither special in this regard, nor is it particularly noteworthy for him to be doing it when all these other people are too -- unless Hojo already knows what could make it noteworthy.
Assuming there are no cameras in the Science department, his cell was specifically broken into by Sephiroth (the guard still has the keys, so the door must be broken), and they're doing it largely because he's directing them to. It's Tifa's cell too, but she doesn't have Mako Eyes.
Since no remark is made about the door being broken (just open) and its graphics weren't altered, I've always assumed it was simply opened with telekinesis (compare to the door of Jenova's containment tank). As for whether there are cameras throughout the Science Department, you wouldn't expect there to be because of the classified nature of things going on there (in which case three open cell doors would be discovered, not just one), but if there were, Hojo apparently kept the evidence there to himself.

After all, he was the only executive to figure out (possibly know all along?) that Sephiroth had Jenova's escaped body take on his form, and he makes no mention of the fact until the Reunion.

Come to think of it (as I type this), that could very well be how Hojo realized who Cloud was: He watched footage of Jenova's containment tank blow open, then the headless creature within assume Sephiroth's form and begin slaughtering everyone it encountered -- until it opens Cloud's cell door, yet leaves he and Tifa alone.

Hojo then destroys the evidence so it's known only to himself. Sounds like something he would do, doesn't it?

Clem said:
That's an easy one: Laying low to stay off Genesis's radar after seeing what he did to the rest of those poor bastards.
Then why come back as a prominent figure in AVALANCHE, who until recently were doing pretty much the same thing.
Why join a terrorist organization opposed to the de facto world government at all if he's primarily concerned with his ongoing survival?

Clem said:
You've got to stop trying to have so much of this both ways. =P You're responding to this point with "they don't all have the same personality," but you'll respond to other points with the claim that Tseng can't get anything useful out of them.
In relation to something like Mako eyes, the entire army is in question. With regard to the ones specifically hunting Zack, they have already been shown to be able to keep information from Tseng over the course of the hunt, and we know that the ones that eventually caught Zack lied on their report to the Science department (they reported Target B escaped), and when that guy shows up bombing reactors, the few survivors have an even better reason to keep that under wraps. Did they have much more information than Tseng in the first place, and how many of the people that encountered Zack survived?
Fair enough.

Clem said:
The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. Cloud's got the pudding -- i.e. mako eyes and superhuman physical capability.

Tseng could throw his personnel file in front of them and they're just going to laugh at him embarrassing himself with an "obviously doctored" file that he shouldn't have even wasted his time putting together when he needs to be on Sephiroth's trail.
Zack's name alone would end up with Aeris and Tifa comparing notes, and then that falls apart fairly fast.
Tifa remains tight lipped up to the point it's too late for what she knows to make a difference, even denying that she knows who Zack is in Gongaga -- and that, really, may be the biggest point against your suggestion that trying to drive a wedge in the team over this information would amount to anything. Someone on the team already knows the truth, but she's not saying anything (nor is the team coming apart) even when she had plenty of opportunity to interject during the flashback at Kalm.

If it were to come up in the way you suggest, is Tifa going to support Cloud or the Turks in that situation? She didn't even confirm Sephiroth's prodding until she and Cloud were floating in the Lifestream under Mideel.

As for Aerith, bringing Zack's name into something like this is only going to piss her off. That's going to look like the most desperate and pathetic play of all.

You might say Tseng has nothing to lose, but he does still care about Aerith. He may have given up on getting into her flower basket by this point, but in the event the new president still wants her brought in sometime down the line, Tseng would probably prefer it not be kicking and screaming day in, day out -- and for no other reasons than obstinance and because he tried to use a weak-ass, no-class tactic (involving her dead boyfriend) she would never forgive against her friends and new crush.

Clem said:
And why should he care if they laugh at him or not?
People who want to be able to intimidate other people usually care if they're seen as intimidating or desperate and pathetic.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Are you forgetting that Tseng is out of commission for a large chunk of the game? Assuming he's not simply in a coma while all of that was going on, he's still out of contact with his coworkers (they don't know he's alive until they're looking for Rufus after Diamond Weapon has blown up his office).

One would imagine he would get in contact if he had literally world saving information, unless he was actually comatose the whole time.

Knowing who Cloud was would be useful information for someone present (which Tseng wasn't) to know after the Temple of Ancients through to the events at the Northern Crater. Tseng informing anyone after that would not matter at all, Cloud seemingly died there.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Knowing who Cloud was would be useful information for someone present (which Tseng wasn't) to know after the Temple of Ancients through to the events at the Northern Crater. Tseng informing anyone after that would not matter at all, Cloud seemingly died there.

Cloud wasn't even on the team for a couple of the huge materia missions, though, and by the time he was involved again, the others knew his whole story. I think you're overestimating the potential value of recognizing him, especially by this point of the game.

Even if that information would have still been somehow useful to Shin-Ra at that juncture (it wouldn't), the fact Tseng wasn't in contact (and we know he wasn't, as we see the moment the other Turks learn he's alive in Episode:Shin-Ra) tells us that if he wasn't in a coma, he either had no idea that AVALANCHE was interfering with the rocket plan, or he was still so injured as to be unable to do anything about it. I think we can at least easily rule out that he wasn't hale and hearty while pretending to be dead for a while.

With Reeve being his only likely contact if he was still communicating with anyone at all, that gives us even less reason to think he might have known what was happening with the huge materia missions.

The information I'm referring to at this point of the game isn't knowledge of Cloud's identity, it's the location of Marlene, which certainly would still matter to the team. If he was capable of making a phonecall, you'd expect him to inform someone.

I'd argue the game wants us to think otherwise ("They were definitely waiting for us"). That they were out in the open speaking so casually rather than hiding somewhere out of sight indicates to me that they weren't there to eliminate them -- at most to keep them busy and let Reno express his disfavor.

If they had exact knowledge, you'd expect them to be better prepared. They knew AVALANCHE were somewhere around, but if they had perfect information you wouldn't expect them to be standing around talking about the crushes they have on the party if they knew the party could hear them (especially Rude). The Turks knew something, but Elena's reaction 'they're here, they're really here!' still indicates a little bit of surprise. Intention to eliminate or not, you'd expect some kind of ambush, rather than standing around chatting, or they'd risk being ambushed themselves.

Since no remark is made about the door being broken (just open) and its graphics weren't altered, I've always assumed it was simply opened with telekinesis (compare to the door of Jenova's containment tank). As for whether there are cameras throughout the Science Department, you wouldn't expect there to be because of the classified nature of things going on there (in which case three open cell doors would be discovered, not just one), but if there were, Hojo apparently kept the evidence there to himself.

After all, he was the only executive to figure out (possibly know all along?) that Sephiroth had Jenova's escaped body take on his form, and he makes no mention of the fact until the Reunion.

Come to think of it (as I type this), that could very well be how Hojo realized who Cloud was: He watched footage of Jenova's containment tank blow open, then the headless creature within assume Sephiroth's form and begin slaughtering everyone it encountered -- until it opens Cloud's cell door, yet leaves he and Tifa alone.

Hojo then destroys the evidence so it's known only to himself. Sounds like something he would do, doesn't it?

It does, yes. And of course, since this is so secret, that footage wouldn't be accessible to many people in Shinra.

Why join a terrorist organization opposed to the de facto world government at all if he's primarily concerned with his ongoing survival?

Good question. Another part of the 'great mystery', perhaps?

Tifa remains tight lipped up to the point it's too late for what she knows to make a difference, even denying that she knows who Zack is in Gongaga -- and that, really, may be the biggest point against your suggestion that trying to drive a wedge in the team over this information would amount to anything. Someone on the team already knows the truth, but she's not saying anything (nor is the team coming apart) even when she had plenty of opportunity to interject during the flashback at Kalm.

If it were to come up in the way you suggest, is Tifa going to support Cloud or the Turks in that situation? She didn't even confirm Sephiroth's prodding until she and Cloud were floating in the Lifestream under Mideel.

She's not saying anything because she doesn't understand it, and wants time to figure it out. In the North Cave, she doesn't say anything, but gives away that something's up by her reaction. In Gongaga, she doesn't say anything, but reacts strongly just to hearing his name, where it can be assumed to be just LTD stuff (which was very clever writing, incidentally). If she reacts to Tseng in the same way, the party will at least know something is up, and if Aeris is around she'll know who Zack is, and the rough date of both his disappearance and his death, which will muddy the waters.

Tseng also cared about Aerith's opinion of him. For all he knows, Cloud could just retort with "Tseng helped hunt down and get Zack killed" and that would be that.

ou might say Tseng has nothing to lose, but he does still care about Aerith. He may have given up on getting into her flower basket by this point, but in the event the new president still wants her brought in sometime down the line, Tseng would probably prefer it not be kicking and screaming day in, day out -- and for no other reasons than obstinance and because he tried to use a weak-ass, no-class tactic (involving her dead boyfriend) she would never forgive against her friends and new crush.

That ship has sailed. He's already given her to Hojo to be cross bred with Red XIII. Even just telling her to take care results in a reply 'strange, coming from you.' She ain't coming quietly or thinking much of him no matter what he does from then on.

I can't speak for Lic or Minato, but I want to say that after seeing Last Order, I know I viewed Crisis Core and replays of scenes from the original game through that lens of understanding. Even by the time we learned that LO was designated "a work outside the Compilation," years had passed, and I'd not only experienced CC with that understanding but also gone back through the original game examining what it meant for it to have the Turks know who Cloud was -- and it surprisingly worked.

It was something that could be added without derailing anything that was there originally, and a once odd line such as "They were...... Mako eyes" suddenly had meaning and a reason to be there. Furthermore, additional significance was added to scenes with both Cloud and the Turks. It was actually one of the better things to come out of the Compilation.

In some small ways, it improved upon the original even while so much else from the Compilation detracted.

I, uh, kinda disagree, which I'm sure will shock everyone.:P

I had no problem with most of the compilation, there were details here and there, but I could roll with em. I was fine with Deepground, fine with Genesis, outright loved Reeve and the WRO. The many Nibelheims were just a matter of expedience, they got compressed so that extra characters could witness it. (Although I pretty much always ignored Sephy taking a dive instead of being thrown, that was hugely jarring for me)

BC's biggest problem for me was overdosing on cameos. The core story was good, but it felt the need to insert a Turk into every character's backstory at some semi pivotal moment, sometimes undercutting their entire arc for the sake of a cameo. This made the world too small (Shinra is huge, there are more people in it capable of doing things than the Turks)
and raised too many questions about how this can never come up again. All this overdose of foreshadowing is something prequels often do, and it rarely works out, because the question becomes 'why don't they do anything with this information?' Giving the Turks this information extended the same problem to the original game.

Like, go back to that infantryman's decision to 'leave him' about Cloud after Zack's death. That works, because that soldier is too inconsequential to have an impact on the plot. But if you give Tseng similar knowledge, you have to come up with some reason why he never shares it with anyone or does anything with it.

The Turks are powerful enough that they can and should be able to use all this information at their disposal (it's actually their job), and they have no motivation for holding it back. If Tseng has all this, every other character is undermined because he could crush them any time he chose. All the main PC's achievements are undercut, because they only happened because Tseng chose to allow them to happen, with very few exceptions. And every other character being undercut is too high a price to pay for the sake of a Turk cameo that doesn't change the overall result at all.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I don't think that the Turks has "all this information", I think Tseng specifically in Crisis Core canon where the Buster Sword is unique and plot important and Tseng met Cloud AT LEAST twice and was present for Angeal giving the sword to Zack and SOLDIER is quite small, Tseng knows Cloud is full of sh*t. Doesn't know he's a Sephiroth Clone and how dangerous he is but has a part of the picture that others do not.

That's a better way of reconciling things then Tseng just does not pay any attention to anything ever.
 
Clem, you keep saying that if Tseng has "all this" information, he can "crush them at any time", but how and why, exactly? Leaving aside the fact that Shinra did indeed decide to "crush" them, and then, following the death of Shinra Snr, the accession of Rufus, and the return of Sephiroth, had a change of policy - why exactly would he want to crush them?

Let's just remind ourselves what is the minimum information Tseng conceivably has, and when.
1. After the Reactor 1 bombing: Someone with distinctive spikey blond hair and superhuman powers has teamed up with the terrorists; he is wearing a SOLDIER 1st class uniform and carrying a Buster sword. No known missing 1st class matches that description. It does, however, match the description of the specimen who went missing with Zack, whom Tseng or may not know as Private Strife, and may or may not know that this person is the same person who "killed" Sephiroth. Tseng will know that Hojo did human experiments on the specimen, though he may not know what experiments, exactly.
2. After the confrontation with President Shinra at the No. 5 Reactor: the spikey-haired swordsman claims to be a 1st Class SOLDIER and that his name is Cloud. [If Tseng can't put two and two together by this point he really isn't fit for his job.]
3. After Reno visits Aerith's church: that "Cloud" fell into her church just like Zack did so many years before, and that Aerith has teamed up with him; he is now "protecting her".
4. After the Turks went round to Don Corneo's - that Aerith is still teamed up with Cloud and at least one other terrorist and is pulling some pretty dangerous stunts together. Last seen falling into the sewers. [Perhaps he's trying to establish whether or not she is still alive; perhaps that's why he's looking for her while Reno is dropping the plate]. By this point he also knows that the terrorist's base is in 7th Heaven.
5. After the dropping of the plate - that Cloud isn't capable of taking Reno down on his own, or even with backup, as Zack would have surely been.

After all this, he either has to have figured out who Cloud is or for some inexplicable reason people are keeping information from him that he needs to do his job.

He then arranges for the capture and imprisonment of Cloud & Co, and if Sephiroth hadn't returned, that would have been game over. But the return of Sephiroth changes everything. So, I ask again, why exactly would Tseng - or Shinra - now want to crush these terrorists, the only ones who seem both willing and able to take Sephiroth on?

I didn't really follow the point about knowing Marlene's whereabouts, but there is this: while he's recuperating in Junon, the only Shinra people Tseng is really is contact with are Veld and Reeve. Reeve, at least, outranks him. Does he have any reason to suppose that Reeve would not share what he knows (and Reeve knows more than Tseng knows by this point) with the Board? Does Tseng have any inkling that Reeve is turning his coat and throwing in his lot with Avalanche? I don't think so.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
1. After the Reactor 1 bombing: Someone with distinctive spikey blond hair and superhuman powers has teamed up with the terrorists; he is wearing a SOLDIER 1st class uniform and carrying a Buster sword. No known missing 1st class matches that description. It does, however, match the description of the specimen who went missing with Zack, whom Tseng or may not know as Private Strife, and may or may not know that this person is the same person who "killed" Sephiroth. Tseng will know that Hojo did human experiments on the specimen, though he may not know what experiments, exactly.

He never got that description, which we know from BC and CC. Cissnei doesn't know who she's looking for at first, so unless he for some reason decided not to tell the person he sent to hunt the specimens who they were looking for, Tseng could not have known.

. After the confrontation with President Shinra at the No. 5 Reactor: the spikey-haired swordsman claims to be a 1st Class SOLDIER and that his name is Cloud. [If Tseng can't put two and two together by this point he really isn't fit for his job.]

He needs other information to draw this conclusion, like that description her never got.

. After Reno visits Aerith's church: that "Cloud" fell into her church just like Zack did so many years before, and that Aerith has teamed up with him; he is now "protecting her".

She hired a stranger on the spot as a bodyguard. That's all they know from this.

4. After the Turks went round to Don Corneo's - that Aerith is still teamed up with Cloud and at least one other terrorist and is pulling some pretty dangerous stunts together. Last seen falling into the sewers. [Perhaps he's trying to establish whether or not she is still alive; perhaps that's why he's looking for her while Reno is dropping the plate]. By this point he also knows that the terrorist's base is in 7th Heaven.

What makes you think the Turks went anywhere near Don Corneo? Kotch mentions 'some Shinra guys', but that could be anyone. The Don's contact is Heidegger, and the Turks are very busy right now. Second, is he going to recognise Aerith from a second or third hand description, given that Corneo's Manor is probably the last place he'd ever expect her to be?

Tseng knows that the terrorist base is in 7th Heaven? How? Since When?

5. After the dropping of the plate - that Cloud isn't capable of taking Reno down on his own, or even with backup, as Zack would have surely been.

How that battle goes is in the hands of the player, we can't draw many conclusions from it. Reno does react as though it's a humiliation, though.

After all this, he either has to have figured out who Cloud is or for some inexplicable reason people are keeping information from him that he needs to do his job.

This inexplicable reason is most likely being caught red handed betraying the company shortly before the game starts.

I didn't really follow the point about knowing Marlene's whereabouts, but there is this: while he's recuperating in Junon, the only Shinra people Tseng is really is contact with are Veld and Reeve. Reeve, at least, outranks him. Does he have any reason to suppose that Reeve would not share what he knows (and Reeve knows more than Tseng knows by this point) with the Board?

The point is: If Tseng knew Marlene's location, and he also knew AVALANCHE were interfering with the Rocket Plan, wouldn't he bring this up with the Board so they could use it to stop AVALANCHE interfering? And he would have reason to doubt Reeve, as Marlene is Reeve's personal leverage that allows him to stay with the group.

Leaving aside the fact that Shinra did indeed decide to "crush" them, and then, following the death of Shinra Snr, the accession of Rufus, and the return of Sephiroth, had a change of policy - why exactly would he want to crush them?

Because they still ultimately want to bring down Shinra? Priorities shift with the return of Sephiroth, but it could just as easily be a question of 'while we have a bigger problem, we will still kill you all if we get the chance' as 'we are now not interested in you at all'. They don't really act like they're expecting AVALANCHE to kill Sephiroth, whenever Shinra get the chance they go after him first.

I don't think that the Turks has "all this information", I think Tseng specifically in Crisis Core canon where the Buster Sword is unique and plot important and Tseng met Cloud AT LEAST twice and was present for Angeal giving the sword to Zack and SOLDIER is quite small,

Other than meta out of universe knowledge, I can see no way Tseng should particularly have taken note of Cloud on any of those occasions. It's a plot point in BC that it's not routine for Turks to know the names or anything else about their infantry escorts, and Cloud does nothing on those occasions to stand out. Tseng has probably worked with hundreds of Shinra infantrymen over his career. He doesn't know 'this time it's a cutscene, time to pay attention'.

And Tseng was not present for Angeal passing on his sword, he was unconscious outside at the time.

The prevailing view seems to be that Tseng having this knowledge solves problems in some way, but it doesn't, it just moves them. If Tseng has this knowledge, then it's him who is not giving Cissnei the information he has on the targets he is sending her to hunt. It's him that knows full details of who Cloud is, but somehow never tells anyone (Rufus doesn't know at the North Cave, neither does Reeve). It's him, with full knowledge of where AVALANCHE is, that sends his subordinates to stand out in the open in Gongaga talking about their crushes, and hope AVALANCHE doesn't decide to cut them down in cold blood despite their strong reasons to hold a serious grudge. He puts himself and Scarlet directly in their crosshairs and hopes they don't kill them both. He doesn't protect Rufus or Palmer.

Whereas if he doesn't have this information, there's an easy explanation for Tseng not having information -he was caught red handed in blatant treachery very recently, and just barely avoided execution, so doesn't fully have the company's trust, or a rival branch of the company not sharing information.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
He never got that description, which we know from BC and CC. Cissnei doesn't know who she's looking for at first, so unless he for some reason decided not to tell the person he sent to hunt the specimens who they were looking for, Tseng could not have known.

Cissnei was not the only person looking for them as has been pointed out time and again.

He needs other information to draw this conclusion, like that description her never got.

He really doesn't. Cloud himself points out that SOLDIER First Classes are an exclusive bunch and that he'd know every name. CC and BC support this canon. They should know he's lying after a simple check and they keep their mouth shut whatever the case maybe.

Other than meta out of universe knowledge, I can see no way Tseng should particularly have taken note of Cloud on any of those occasions. It's a plot point in BC that it's not routine for Turks to know the names or anything else about their infantry escorts, and Cloud does nothing on those occasions to stand out. Tseng has probably worked with hundreds of Shinra infantrymen over his career. He doesn't know 'this time it's a cutscene, time to pay attention'.

Getting rid of Sephiroth is not something infantry escorts routinely do.

And Tseng was not present for Angeal passing on his sword, he was unconscious outside at the time.

He was present for Angeal's time at SOLDIER, carrying the Buster Sword, he was unconcious because Angeal carrying the Buster Sword took him out, and Tseng remembered enough to know it was Angeal, and he was present afterwards when Angeal is dead and Zack has the Buster Sword. And then keeps the Buster Sword till Nibelheim. Events put Genesis and Angeal back on their possible target list and then Cloud appears with it before him.

The prevailing view seems to be that Tseng having this knowledge solves problems in some way, but it doesn't, it just moves them. If Tseng has this knowledge, then it's him who is not giving Cissnei the information he has on the targets he is sending her to hunt.

No. He doesn't neccesarily know anything when he sends Cissnsei out. Then a year of hunting Zack and his companion passes and conclusions could be drawn and information can be gathered.

It's him that knows full details of who Cloud is, but somehow never tells anyone (Rufus doesn't know at the North Cave, neither does Reeve).

He doesn't know about him being a Sephiroth Clone. Cloud isn't lying about being Cloud in the first place. Tseng isn't in the room when Cloud gives his account of what happened at Nibelheim nor when Sephiroth challenges it. What Tseng WOULD know is that he wasn't a SOLDIER First Class. A lie that the original game establishes would be easy to verify. The President confused Cloud with Zack. Tseng would not. Tseng did not go to Rufus and Reeve with what he knows about Clouds connection to Zack. Why would he? Before he got cut down there was no motive to do so.

Whereas if he doesn't have this information, there's an easy explanation for Tseng not having information -he was caught red handed in blatant treachery very recently, and just barely avoided execution, so doesn't fully have the company's trust, or a rival branch of the company not sharing information.

And even before that, Tseng's mind just refused to register any visual information when it comes to Angeal, changes to Zack's basic outline or when he visited the site of Sephiroth's death.

And the best investigator that money can buy (which is what the head Turk SHOULD be or he does not deserve his job) just sucks at gathering information on his targets.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
He needs other information to draw this conclusion, like that description her never got.

He really doesn't. Cloud himself points out that SOLDIER First Classes are an exclusive bunch and that he'd know every name. CC and BC support this canon. They should know he's lying after a simple check and they keep their mouth shut whatever the case maybe.
I don't know why I didn't think of that, but yeah, this point really undermines much of the case you're making, Clem. Tseng wouldn't even need to know precisely who Cloud is to know he's not a SOLDIER 1st Class.

If he was going to do all that other stuff you were talking about, why didn't he do it anyway?

----


The point is: If Tseng knew Marlene's location, and he also knew AVALANCHE were interfering with the Rocket Plan, wouldn't he bring this up with the Board so they could use it to stop AVALANCHE interfering? And he would have reason to doubt Reeve, as Marlene is Reeve's personal leverage that allows him to stay with the group.
Why continue mentioning this as if it's even a reasonable assumption that Tseng would know about AVALANCHE interfering with the rocket plan? He may know about the rocket plan itself, but if he does, it's the same way everyone else on the planet knows about it. That doesn't mean he's going to know about Cloud and co. interfering.

For what really should be the last time, his own crew thinks he's dead until well after the rocket business is over with. You can refresh your memory about this right here.

Whether it be because he was in a coma, stuck in a fever dream, or just hadn't talked to anyone but Reeve, as of Diamond's attack on Midgar, "All of the Turks were still under the belief that Tseng was dead." That's said in Episode:Shin-Ra plain as plainest day.

And you know if he hasn't spoken to anyone but Reeve (assuming even that much), he wouldn't know all of what's been happening. Reeve himself was interfering with the rocket plan.

Clem said:
If Tseng has this knowledge ... It's him, with full knowledge of where AVALANCHE is, that sends his subordinates to stand out in the open in Gongaga talking about their crushes, and hope AVALANCHE doesn't decide to cut them down in cold blood despite their strong reasons to hold a serious grudge. He puts himself and Scarlet directly in their crosshairs and hopes they don't kill them both.
I'm also not sure why you keep bringing this up. Unless Tseng's subordinates somehow had more knowledge than he did about Cloud and co.'s whereabouts, those things happened -- and even then, his subordinates would be making those same choices. We're told outright that the Turks were waiting for them.

When you say this or
If they had exact knowledge, you'd expect them to be better prepared. They knew AVALANCHE were somewhere around, but if they had perfect information you wouldn't expect them to be standing around talking about the crushes they have on the party if they knew the party could hear them (especially Rude). The Turks knew something, but Elena's reaction 'they're here, they're really here!' still indicates a little bit of surprise. Intention to eliminate or not, you'd expect some kind of ambush, rather than standing around chatting, or they'd risk being ambushed themselves.
, it sounds like you're trying to argue that the Turks weren't waiting for them even though that's exactly what they were doing. Reason out a satisfactory explanation if you need to (I already gave you one: stalling the team and letting Reno express his anger), because arguing that those things don't make sense is not going to change that they happened. Even if it could, it'd be Kitase, Nojima, et. al. you'd need to make your case to.

Clem said:
ou might say Tseng has nothing to lose, but he does still care about Aerith. He may have given up on getting into her flower basket by this point, but in the event the new president still wants her brought in sometime down the line, Tseng would probably prefer it not be kicking and screaming day in, day out -- and for no other reasons than obstinance and because he tried to use a weak-ass, no-class tactic (involving her dead boyfriend) she would never forgive against her friends and new crush.

That ship has sailed. He's already given her to Hojo to be cross bred with Red XIII. Even just telling her to take care results in a reply 'strange, coming from you.' She ain't coming quietly or thinking much of him no matter what he does from then on.
Probably true. Nonetheless, he does still care about her -- he spends what he expects are his last words trying to make his expected death easier for her despite being happy that she cared enough about him to be sad that he was dying.

Though he did deliver her into Hojo's clutches. I think we can both agree that he would have found a way to avoid it if he had known the psycho was going to jump into doing something like that right away.

Personally, I'm convinced he brought her in as forcefully as he did is because a) he was pissed that his patience with her had led to her joining a rebel faction determined to bring down the company, and b) the President had finally grown impatient with Tseng's approach, especially after c) the Turk betrayal you keep mentioning -- so at this point, it was d) a desperate situation where Tseng had to make a move like that to keep himself and his colleagues alive, as well as to be in a position to possibly continue to protect Aerith moving forward.

----


Just want to reiterate that I'm still at my "I think we've probably explored our main topic as much as we can at this point" and "I think there are enough reasons to justify either interpretation" conclusions, but the reasons I felt the need to respond to in this post are not among those that could justify the interpretation you're advocating.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I don't know why I didn't think of that, but yeah, this point really undermines much of the case you're making, Clem. Tseng wouldn't even need to know precisely who Cloud is to know he's not a SOLDIER 1st Class.

If he was going to do all that other stuff you were talking about, why didn't he do it anyway?

What does this undermine? I've been arguing this the entire time. Someone with Mako Eyes they don't know would qualify as a 'great mystery', no? Just saying that he's not a SOLDIER is a lot less convincing than saying exactly who he is instead.

Why continue mentioning this as if it's even a reasonable assumption that Tseng would know about AVALANCHE interfering with the rocket plan? He may know about the rocket plan itself, but if he does, it's the same way everyone else on the planet knows about it. That doesn't mean he's going to know about Cloud and co. interfering.

For what really should be the last time, his own crew thinks he's dead until well after the rocket business is over with. You can refresh your memory about this right here.

Whether it be because he was in a coma, stuck in a fever dream, or just hadn't talked to anyone but Reeve, as of Diamond's attack on Midgar, "All of the Turks were still under the belief that Tseng was dead." That's said in Episode:Shin-Ra plain as plainest day.

And you know if he hasn't spoken to anyone but Reeve (assuming even that much), he wouldn't know all of what's been happening. Reeve himself was interfering with the rocket plan.

All the Turks believed he was dead, sure. Something else I never disputed in the first place. But otherwise you're relying on headcanons there. Unless he was unconscious or imprisoned, you's expect him to still take an interest in Shinra's affairs, and volunteer such a vital piece of leverage if he had it, since it would involve literally saving the world (as far as he knows) at that point. It doesn't rely on the Turks knowing he's alive, it assumes he would still be able to contact mainstream Shinra if he wanted to. Now, maybe he was unconscious or imprisoned, but otherwise, there's also the simple possibility that he never knew where Marlene was at all (or that she was kidnapped in the first place), since we have no indication whatsoever in any game or source that he ever did.

, it sounds like you're trying to argue that the Turks weren't waiting for them even though that's exactly what they were doing. Reason out a satisfactory explanation if you need to (I already gave you one: stalling the team and letting Reno express his anger), because arguing that those things don't make sense is not going to change that they happened. Even if it could, it'd be Kitase, Nojima, et. al. you'd need to make your case to.

No, not what I'm arguing. The Turks were waiting for them. What I'm arguing is that their intelligence was 'somewhere in Gongaga forest' rather than their exact position. And that Tseng doesn't know exactly where AVALANCHE is at all times, didn't know where they were when he was with Scarlet, etc, and therefore that he doesn't have everything he needs to crush them whenever he wants. He doesn't necessarily know everything Reeve knows, which seems to be an assumption people are making.

My argument isn't 'this didn't happen', it's 'if Tseng had this information, it would be extremely careless of him to do this, and therefore it is more likely, since it happened, that he never had this information.

Probably true. Nonetheless, he does still care about her -- he spends what he expects are his last words trying to make his expected death easier for her despite being happy that she cared enough about him to be sad that he was dying.

Yup. But (assuming he knows who Cloud is) it seems a stretch that he'd think mentioning Zack's name is such a huge transgression in the name of convincing her (truthfully) that one of her companions isn't who she thinks he is, and could be dangerous.

Cissnei was not the only person looking for them as has been pointed out time and again.

Something else I never questioned. But she's one of very few people to meet them and survive.

He really doesn't. Cloud himself points out that SOLDIER First Classes are an exclusive bunch and that he'd know every name. CC and BC support this canon. They should know he's lying after a simple check and they keep their mouth shut whatever the case maybe.

They know he's not a 1st (or maybe a SOLDIER at all) Doesn't mean they know who he actually is.

Getting rid of Sephiroth is not something infantry escorts routinely do.

But does Tseng know that he did that? In every source we have, the Turks either aren't there or arrive late, they could just see him as someone else Sephiroth cut down on his rampage.

He was present for Angeal's time at SOLDIER, carrying the Buster Sword, he was unconcious because Angeal carrying the Buster Sword took him out, and Tseng remembered enough to know it was Angeal, and he was present afterwards when Angeal is dead and Zack has the Buster Sword. And then keeps the Buster Sword till Nibelheim. Events put Genesis and Angeal back on their possible target list and then Cloud appears with it before him.

Does he know the sword is important?

No. He doesn't neccesarily know anything when he sends Cissnsei out. Then a year of hunting Zack and his companion passes and conclusions could be drawn and information can be gathered.

It could, but the Turks are in hiding or in rebellion for much of that time. Cissnei is sidetracked when she bumps into Veld, and then that takes precedence for all of them.

What Tseng WOULD know is that he wasn't a SOLDIER First Class. A lie that the original game establishes would be easy to verify.

Yes. I've been arguing exactly that.

And the best investigator that money can buy (which is what the head Turk SHOULD be or he does not deserve his job) just sucks at gathering information on his targets.

But he still needs to get his information from somewhere, while the company is largely hostile to him and his operatives, and he has an unprecedented, world ending crisis to deal with for much of that time.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Yup. But (assuming he knows who Cloud is) it seems a stretch that he'd think mentioning Zack's name is such a huge transgression in the name of convincing her (truthfully) that one of her companions isn't who she thinks he is, and could be dangerous.

They know he's not a 1st (or maybe a SOLDIER at all) Doesn't mean they know who he actually is.

So a guy called Cloud Strife is pretending to be SOLDIER is something not worth passing on anyone but Cloud Strife, infantryman pretending to be SOLDIER is a honeycomb of information that it would be incredibly irresponsible to not take to anyone that'll listen.

But does Tseng know that he did that? In every source we have, the Turks either aren't there or arrive late, they could just see him as someone else Sephiroth cut down on his rampage.

Tseng did show up there and showed Cloud specifically to Hojo as one of two survivors of the battle that ended Sephiroth. Hojo figured out right away Cloud was important. TWO FACES. You already know one. You can't make a mental note of the only people that might know what happened to Sephiroth?

It could, but the Turks are in hiding or in rebellion for much of that time. Cissnei is sidetracked when she bumps into Veld, and then that takes precedence for all of them.

Provided that it did indeed fill out all those months that made the events of Nibelhem go from four years ago to five. At some point that situation ended. And they went back to being Turks, loyal to their jobs no matter the cost. Three guys killed Zack and he outranks them completely again, they are no longer allegedly hostile to and allegedly stonewalling any inquery from the Turks. Can ask them whatever. And then Cloud appears before him.

But he still needs to get his information from somewhere, while the company is largely hostile to him and his operatives, and he has an unprecedented, world ending crisis to deal with for much of that time.

Angeal had been their targets for years before that situation started. Zack was his friend for two years before Nibelheim. Cloud comparatively didn't know about Aerith, but pretty damn quickly picked up on the fact that the Buster Sword is significant to Zack.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don't know why I didn't think of that, but yeah, this point really undermines much of the case you're making, Clem. Tseng wouldn't even need to know precisely who Cloud is to know he's not a SOLDIER 1st Class.

If he was going to do all that other stuff you were talking about, why didn't he do it anyway?

What does this undermine? I've been arguing this the entire time. Someone with Mako Eyes they don't know would qualify as a 'great mystery', no? Just saying that he's not a SOLDIER is a lot less convincing than saying exactly who he is instead.
That doesn't much matter if he's as eager as you suggest to grasp at any straw he can to break down the team's trust in one another. :monster:

You keep saying "there's potential for huge gains with no real risk" and "he gains by revealing the truth, and loses nothing at all if he's wrong" -- so why is he now more worried about not being believed? And why is he also now worried about having the most thorough and specific information possible when previously he supposedly had gamebreaking powers he would have been content to exercise just by poking vaguely with something like "Aeris? Didn't you wonder where your new friend got his sword? Are you sure you can trust him?" or "So you think you're a SOLDIER, huh? How do you know that?" =P

Can't have all of it both ways.

Clem said:
All the Turks believed he was dead, sure. Something else I never disputed in the first place. But otherwise you're relying on headcanons there. Unless he was unconscious or imprisoned, you's expect him to still take an interest in Shinra's affairs, and volunteer such a vital piece of leverage if he had it, since it would involve literally saving the world (as far as he knows) at that point.
I'm not sure I'm following here. Your reaction to these things --

-To him being irrelevant to proceedings in the original game after receiving a severe wound that had him fading in and out of consciousness for an unknown stretch of time
-To him being transported by people Reeve contacted whom Tseng himself remarks are no longer affiliated with the company
-And to the colleagues he's closest to still believing that he's dead long after the "saving the world" opportunity you're focusing on has passed

-- is that he was still in contact with the company and knew everything that was going on?

How are you getting to that? Just how?

Clem said:
It doesn't rely on the Turks knowing he's alive, it assumes he would still be able to contact mainstream Shinra if he wanted to.
But not the people at Shin-Ra closest to him, apparently?

And "mainstream Shin-Ra"? As in ... the executives? Like Reeve? The guy who had the "Shadow Turks" transport Tseng? The guy who has been actively foiling the very Shin-Ra plan you're talking about Tseng acting on? The guy who didn't tell the other Turks that Tseng was still alive?

Hell, Reeve may have even told them that he was dead. Someone did at the very least ("They had received reports that Tseng had died").

Clem said:
it sounds like you're trying to argue that the Turks weren't waiting for them even though that's exactly what they were doing. Reason out a satisfactory explanation if you need to (I already gave you one: stalling the team and letting Reno express his anger), because arguing that those things don't make sense is not going to change that they happened. Even if it could, it'd be Kitase, Nojima, et. al. you'd need to make your case to.

No, not what I'm arguing. The Turks were waiting for them. What I'm arguing is that their intelligence was 'somewhere in Gongaga forest' rather than their exact position.

And how is standing out in the open along the path anyone heading to Gongaga would take any more clever under those conditions (i.e. "They're somewhere in Gongaga forest") than it is under more specific conditions (e.g. "They're on the road that leads to Gongaga")?

They were waiting for them and wanted a confrontation. It's just that simple.

Clem said:
And that Tseng doesn't know exactly where AVALANCHE is at all times, didn't know where they were when he was with Scarlet, etc, and therefore that he doesn't have everything he needs to crush them whenever he wants.

You just said he knows "They're somewhere in Gongaga forest" -- so, again, why is it any smarter to let Scarlet be there under those conditions than if he knew precisely where they were? Hell, if anything, that's less smart if he's actually concerned about the group happening upon an executive and taking her out.

Why not have an armed detail along the perimeter of the ruined reactor if he knows they're in the area, yet not precisely where? You can probably guess my answer: He knew they would be coming down the obvious path if they showed up and his subordinates were waiting for them along that route.

Clem said:
My argument isn't 'this didn't happen', it's 'if Tseng had this information, it would be extremely careless of him to do this, and therefore it is more likely, since it happened, that he never had this information.
No, you're just arguing he had even less precise information, yet made what amounts to even more careless decisions in light of that information being less precise.

Maybe he secretly hated the other Turks and Scarlet and wanted them all to die! Since, "If Tseng had this information, it would be extremely careless of him to do this, and therefore it is more likely." :monster:
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
So a guy called Cloud Strife is pretending to be SOLDIER is something not worth passing on anyone but Cloud Strife, infantryman pretending to be SOLDIER is a honeycomb of information that it would be incredibly irresponsible to not take to anyone that'll listen.

Both should be pointed out. But the more information Tseng has, the more likely he is to say it, as then he will have answers to any challenges.

Tseng did show up there and showed Cloud specifically to Hojo as one of two survivors of the battle that ended Sephiroth. Hojo figured out right away Cloud was important. TWO FACES. You already know one. You can't make a mental note of the only people that might know what happened to Sephiroth?

Why? They're going straight to science, he's not going to be interrogating them, and Cloud is extremely badly hurt. In our sole canon source, Hojo takes note of Cloud only in his head. Sephiroth has already left a trail of corpses, one more that's not dead yet isn't super remarkable without more information.

Sephiroth has left a trail of bodies in his wake. Other Nibelheim villagers survived as well.

Provided that it did indeed fill out all those months that made the events of Nibelhem go from four years ago to five. At some point that situation ended. And they went back to being Turks, loyal to their jobs no matter the cost. Three guys killed Zack and he outranks them completely again, they are no longer allegedly hostile to and allegedly stonewalling any inquery from the Turks. Can ask them whatever. And then Cloud appears before him.

It begins directly after Zack's escape, when Player Turk is caught colluding with Veld in Shinra Manor. The next time we see the Turks after that, they're in hiding.

According to BC's epilogue, Tseng's faces judgement the same day as the no 1 reactor is bombed, if Shinra has any security protocols at all, he's been detained since his arrest earlier. By which time the those three infantrymen have already lied to the science department and have a very strong motive to lie to him rather than admit they guy they let go is now bombing reactors.

Angeal had been their targets for years before that situation started. Zack was his friend for two years before Nibelheim. Cloud comparatively didn't know about Aerith, but pretty damn quickly picked up on the fact that the Buster Sword is significant to Zac

Not really, he makes an offhand comment when they're killing time that Zack doesn't use it much (which is totally contradicted by the gameplay, but whatever). He doesn't know it's significant until it's explained to him.

You keep saying "there's potential for huge gains with no real risk" and "he gains by revealing the truth, and loses nothing at all if he's wrong" -- so why is he now more worried about not being believed? And why is he also now worried about having the most thorough and specific information possible when previously he supposedly had gamebreaking powers he would have been content to exercise just by poking vaguely with something like "Aeris? Didn't you wonder where your new friend got his sword? Are you sure you can trust him?" or "So you think you're a SOLDIER, huh? How do you know that?" =P

You wanted me to roleplay an entire conversation? Those were examples of possible opening statements, the rest is going to change depending on how the party reacts. He should bring it up regardless, but the more information he has, the more likely he is to do so, because then he can answer any challenges the team might have.

I'm not sure I'm following here. Your reaction to these things --

-To him being irrelevant to proceedings in the original game after receiving a severe wound that had him fading in and out of consciousness for an unknown stretch of time
-To him being transported by people Reeve contacted whom Tseng himself remarks are no longer affiliated with the company
-And to the colleagues he's closest to still believing that he's dead long after the "saving the world" opportunity you're focusing on has passed

-- is that he was still in contact with the company and knew everything that was going on?

How are you getting to that? Just how?

Assuming he was capable of operating a phone (and considering he's back to full health by the time Midgar is being evacuated, he should be), Tseng would want to keep up to date with what was going on. There's no particular reason to stop him from doing this.

He was out of contact in canon. But if he had available to him a vital piece of leverage on AVALANCHE, and he knew what was going on, you' could reasonably expect him to get in contact and pass on that information, which he would be capable of with a mere phonecall. He did not do that. Ergo, either he didn't know anything about Marlene, or was physically incapable of making that phonecall, and given that he's fit enough to help with the evacuation of Midgar, I find it a stretch to believe he was unconscious right up to that time.

Along with the fact that there is no particular reason to believe he ever should have known that Reeve had kidnapped Marlene in the first place, this inclines me to believe that he never knew anything about that.

Can somebody give me a reason to believe Tseng knew anything about Reeve kidnapping Marlene in the first place? I'm not seeing one.

And how is standing out in the open along the path anyone heading to Gongaga would take any more clever under those conditions (i.e. "They're somewhere in Gongaga forest") than it is under more specific conditions (e.g. "They're on the road that leads to Gongaga")?

They were waiting for them and wanted a confrontation. It's just that simple.

I'm talking specific information like (AVALANCHE are exactly here!), in which case the Turks wouldn't initially not know AVALANCHE were there and be busy chatting about their crushes, information they specifically wouldn't want Tifa and Aeris to know.

You just said he knows "They're somewhere in Gongaga forest" -- so, again, why is it any smarter to let Scarlet be there under those conditions than if he knew precisely where they were? Hell, if anything, that's less smart if he's actually concerned about the group happening upon an executive and taking her out.

Why not have an armed detail along the perimeter of the ruined reactor if he knows they're in the area, yet not precisely where? You can probably guess my answer: He knew they would be coming down the obvious path if they showed up and his subordinates were waiting for them along that route.

Bringing Scarlet to Gongaga reactor with AVALANCHE in the area is a risk. But if he has perfect information on where they are (ie. In that corner, I'm currently in Barret's crosshairs) it moves from risky to 'utterly moronic', because he's trusting to blind luck that they don't cut them both down where he stands.

Maybe he secretly hated the other Turks and Scarlet and wanted them all to die! Since, "If Tseng had this information, it would be extremely careless of him to do this, and therefore it is more likely."

And Palmer, and Rufus. If he had perfect information as to where AVALANCHE was, ie, (they are RIGHT HERE!) then allowing all these top level officials (including himself) right into their crosshairs entails either secretly wanting them all dead or being utterly, utterly terrible at his job! So our options are 'Tseng doesn't have perfect information' or 'he is such a fuckup that he makes no effort to keep high level Shinra officials away from terrorists'.
 
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