I think we've probably explored our main topic as much as we can at this point, so I won't say much more on it. I think there are enough reasons to justify either interpretation, though, with things ultimately coming most down to what the Turk in Nibelheim was able to witness.
Since Crisis Core didn't show us a canon (at least for now) answer to that question, we'll just have to hope the remake gives us one. I'm not going to hold my breath, though. Who knows if they will even bother to show something like that.
I can't speak for Lic or Minato, but I want to say that after seeing Last Order, I know I viewed Crisis Core and replays of scenes from the original game through that lens of understanding. Even by the time we learned that LO was designated "a work outside the Compilation," years had passed, and I'd not only experienced CC with that understanding but also gone back through the original game examining what it meant for it to have the Turks know who Cloud was -- and it surprisingly worked.
It was something that could be added without derailing anything that was there originally, and a once odd line such as "They were...... Mako eyes" suddenly had meaning and a reason to be there. Furthermore, additional significance was added to scenes with both Cloud and the Turks. It was actually one of the better things to come out of the Compilation.
In some small ways, it improved upon the original even while so much else from the Compilation detracted.
Whether this addition was still intended to be canon by the time Crisis Core came out, I don't know. Before this discussion, I'd never had cause to doubt it. I still don't think we were meant to doubt it at that time, though, so much as that I can see how enough changed in the Nibelheim flashback's depiction and LO's status afterward that the doubt isn't unfounded.
I also don't think the remake is necessarily going to prove either of us right. Even if it definitively shows us Tseng knowing Cloud or being completely unaware of him, that won't necessarily tell us where things were in the time between CC's release and the remake coming out.
Still, it has been a fun discussion and given me a reason to torture myself with BC's existence some.
Are you forgetting that Tseng is out of commission for a large chunk of the game? Assuming he's not simply in a coma while all of that was going on, he's still out of contact with his coworkers (they don't know he's alive until they're looking for Rufus after Diamond Weapon has blown up his office).
One would imagine he would get in contact if he had literally world saving information, unless he was actually comatose the whole time.
Cloud wasn't even on the team for a couple of the huge materia missions, though, and by the time he was involved again, the others knew his whole story. I think you're overestimating the potential value of recognizing him, especially by this point of the game.
Even if that information would have still been somehow useful to Shin-Ra at that juncture (it wouldn't), the fact Tseng wasn't in contact (and we know he wasn't, as we see the moment the other Turks learn he's alive in Episode:Shin-Ra) tells us that if he wasn't in a coma, he either had no idea that AVALANCHE was interfering with the rocket plan, or he was still so injured as to be unable to do anything about it. I think we can at least easily rule out that he wasn't hale and hearty while pretending to be dead for a while.
With Reeve being his only likely contact if he was still communicating with anyone at all, that gives us even less reason to think he might have known what was happening with the huge materia missions.
Clem said:
I realize the point you're trying to make with this, but the Turks had very clearly been tipped off that AVALANCHE was heading in the direction of Gongaga, yet you have to square that point with the fact that, yes, there is Tseng and there is Scarlet in the terrorists' range. Make of that what you will, but Elena quite blatantly lets slip that "they knew we were coming"/"They were definitely waiting for us" (lines from Tifa and Red XIII respectively) -- and despite that, Tseng still allowed Cloud and co. to get as close as they did.
What that indicates to me is that their information is not perfect, so he couldn't just crush them any time he wanted. They knew something, like the general area, but not enough to know their exact location, which is why AVALANCHE catches them chatting about their crushes rather than lying in wait.
I'd argue the game wants us to think otherwise ("They were definitely waiting for us"). That they were out in the open speaking so casually rather than hiding somewhere out of sight indicates to me that they weren't there to eliminate them -- at most to keep them busy and let Reno express his disfavor.
Clem said:
Actions that other people with interests in the matter were also carrying out, both within Shin-Ra and on his own team. He's neither special in this regard, nor is it particularly noteworthy for him to be doing it when all these other people are too -- unless Hojo already knows what could make it noteworthy.
Assuming there are no cameras in the Science department, his cell was specifically broken into by Sephiroth (the guard still has the keys, so the door must be broken), and they're doing it largely because he's directing them to. It's Tifa's cell too, but she doesn't have Mako Eyes.
Since no remark is made about the door being broken (just open) and its graphics weren't altered, I've always assumed it was simply opened with telekinesis (compare to the door of Jenova's containment tank). As for whether there are cameras throughout the Science Department, you wouldn't expect there to be because of the classified nature of things going on there (in which case three open cell doors would be discovered, not just one), but if there were, Hojo apparently kept the evidence there to himself.
After all, he was the only executive to figure out (possibly know all along?) that Sephiroth had Jenova's escaped body take on his form, and he makes no mention of the fact until the Reunion.
Come to think of it (as I type this), that could very well be how Hojo realized who Cloud was: He watched footage of Jenova's containment tank blow open, then the headless creature within assume Sephiroth's form and begin slaughtering everyone it encountered -- until it opens Cloud's cell door, yet leaves he and Tifa alone.
Hojo then destroys the evidence so it's known only to himself. Sounds like something he would do, doesn't it?
Clem said:
That's an easy one: Laying low to stay off Genesis's radar after seeing what he did to the rest of those poor bastards.
Then why come back as a prominent figure in AVALANCHE, who until recently were doing pretty much the same thing.
Why join a terrorist organization opposed to the de facto world government at all if he's primarily concerned with his ongoing survival?
Clem said:
You've got to stop trying to have so much of this both ways. =P You're responding to this point with "they don't all have the same personality," but you'll respond to other points with the claim that Tseng can't get anything useful out of them.
In relation to something like Mako eyes, the entire army is in question. With regard to the ones specifically hunting Zack, they have already been shown to be able to keep information from Tseng over the course of the hunt, and we know that the ones that eventually caught Zack lied on their report to the Science department (they reported Target B escaped), and when that guy shows up bombing reactors, the few survivors have an even better reason to keep that under wraps. Did they have much more information than Tseng in the first place, and how many of the people that encountered Zack survived?
Fair enough.
Clem said:
The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. Cloud's got the pudding -- i.e. mako eyes and superhuman physical capability.
Tseng could throw his personnel file in front of them and they're just going to laugh at him embarrassing himself with an "obviously doctored" file that he shouldn't have even wasted his time putting together when he needs to be on Sephiroth's trail.
Zack's name alone would end up with Aeris and Tifa comparing notes, and then that falls apart fairly fast.
Tifa remains tight lipped up to the point it's too late for what she knows to make a difference, even denying that she knows who Zack is in Gongaga -- and that, really, may be the biggest point against your suggestion that trying to drive a wedge in the team over this information would amount to anything. Someone on the team already knows the truth, but she's not saying anything (nor is the team coming apart) even when she had plenty of opportunity to interject during the flashback at Kalm.
If it were to come up in the way you suggest, is Tifa going to support Cloud or the Turks in that situation? She didn't even confirm Sephiroth's prodding until she and Cloud were floating in the Lifestream under Mideel.
As for Aerith, bringing Zack's name into something like this is only going to piss her off. That's going to look like the most desperate and pathetic play of all.
You might say Tseng has nothing to lose, but he does still care about Aerith. He may have given up on getting into her flower basket by this point, but in the event the new president still wants her brought in sometime down the line, Tseng would probably prefer it not be kicking and screaming day in, day out -- and for no other reasons than obstinance and because he tried to use a weak-ass, no-class tactic (involving her dead boyfriend) she would never forgive against her friends and new crush.
Clem said:
And why should he care if they laugh at him or not?
People who want to be able to intimidate other people usually care if they're seen as intimidating or desperate and pathetic.