Guest Characters in Remake

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Would it really be that problematic just to change his face and voice from Gackt's likeness, though? The outfit is arguably the most iconic thing about him (well, that and the way he talks), and since Nomura designed that, it belongs to SE, license or no license.

It's not problematic except in the sense that they can't retroactively change how he looks in the compilation, and I doubt they'd think it necessary or worth the effort to redesign Genesis for the remake, who after all, is not relevant to the story of they're remaking if it's going mean they have to do major changes to him.
But are we talking about major changes? Like I said, Genesis is already pretty much Generic Looking Bishounen. It would take hardly any tweaking for him to become Even More Generic Looking Bishounen.

hian said:
As for the outfit - Nomura having designed it does not mean that it is property of SE. Nobuo Uematsu's FF songs for instance, are not his property anymore. They're the property of SE.
I'm ... not sure you said what you meant to here? Your comparison doesn't make sense. It would apply if I was saying that Nomura owned the outfit for having designed it. That would be analogous to saying Uematsu owns his FF musical contributions because he composed them.

But in both cases -- Nomura's designs and Uematsu's compositions -- they are owned by SE. This is as true of the "Prelude" theme as it is of Genesis's outfit.

Gackt doesn't own the outfit or the character. He owns the likeness and voice of the character -- both of which could be easily changed in five minutes.

I seriously don't see what the complication is in putting a slightly different face on Genesis when his face (i.e. Gackt's) is already so generic.
That seems like baseless speculation though.

That depends on what you mean by baseless. Given that there are literally no other reasons conceivable why it wouldn't be on the PSN store for the Vita when both Type-0 and the Disssidia games are, I wouldn't call it baseless even for a person who doesn't actually have tangible proof at hand.

But, I am not that person. And, while I'm loath to do this, I'm getting tired of beating a dead horse, so I will anyways -
This does not even go into the fact that, as a person who works in the industry here in Japan, this is not widely unknown to be the case. The only reason it isn't put into print, is the common business sense.

If you want confirmation for this, be my guest, PM me your mail-address and I'll give you temp access to my dev channel, where you can ask former Square employees for yourself.
Much as I would love to actually speak to some people who have worked for Square, I won't be the one to ask you for this. I neither want you to potentially compromise your professional reputation nor do I really doubt that licensing issues are the reason those games haven't seen digital release.

Honestly, it's the most obvious explanation, and the only potentially good reason.

I do have to wonder, though, whether Gackt or his record label has the final say in matters such as these. Licensing legal matters are the biggest vat of shit, I swear.
 

hian

Purist
I don't think the characters look that much like Gackt either. Sure some of them have similar hairstyles and clothes, but they're not even close facially. I'm sure Nomura is inspired by him a lot (for some bizarre reason) and Nomuras characters all look pretty similar, it's like he can only do 2-3 faces at most.

/off topic :monster:

Really? You don't see the similarity in facial structure in terms of jaw-lines, brow shape, nose width and height, lip-shape etc.?

I don't really see them either. Gackt doesn't have a very distinctive face to start with; he has a bland chameleon face, a kind of generic anime-face, that could be almost anybody, male or female. So of course it's easy with a wig and a little make-up to make him look like almost any character. He could be made to resemble Vincent, Reeve, Reno, Tseng, Tifa, Aerith (maybe not Yuffie as she's just too young). The only ones he couldn't masquerade as are Rude, Barret, and Red XIII.

I think this is putting the horse before the cart.

Most humans do not have "bland chameleon-faces" and the characters of any design would only resemble such a face if they too where designed with faces that are within the spectrum of reach for such a face - or, if you will, with "bland chameleon-faces".

You could put as much make-up on me as you want to - I would still not look like any of those characters, because of my cheek-bones, jaw-line and nose-shape.
If Gackt can look like any of these characters with some make-up, that's because non of these characters are particularly distinctly designed, and because his facial structure, generally, is within reach of those generalities.
What else would you call that except resemblance?

Besides it's a non-sequitor and a contradiction in either case to say what you're saying here.
If Gackt doesn't resemble these characters, then he doesn't resemble them. Whether it's his make-up that makes him resemble them or not is not relevant.

You're literally saying that Gackt doesn't resemble them because he can resemble anyone. However, if he resembles anyone, then he resembles them as well.
Seeing as how most people do not resemble these characters though, and Gackt apparently does by virtue of being able to resemble anyone, it does not make sense to say he does not resemble them.

The correct thing to say here is that Nomura's characters all look indistinct and androgynous, as does Gackt - and since they share that commonality, they resemble one another.

But are we talking about major changes? Like I said, Genesis is already pretty much Generic Looking Bishounen. It would take hardly any tweaking for him to become Even More Generic Looking Bishounen.

We're talking major because when it comes to this particular "generic Bishonen"(I don't really agree that it's even that generic, except in terms of Nomura's own designs - because that particular style of design is actually not that common outside of his work) is tied to a license agreement.

Again - it is not the likeliness as you or I perceive it that matters here - it is what is written in contract in relation to a statement of resemblance.

What that means is that while Cloud could resemble Gackt on a fluke and be of no issue what so ever - Genesis, which was designed to resemble Gackt on purpose, is therefore also held to a higher standard if it is to re-purposed for use outside of the license contract.

It is a matter of creating a character that can no longer conceivable be thought of as still retaining the characteristics of the licensed character.

In terms of a character like Cloud, if someone like Gackt were make a law-suit due to similarities or something ridiculous like that - minimal difference is enough to provide a defense.
In the case of a character that was literally modeled after Gackt though - now you'd actually have to make major changes in order to make a defense against a claim of breach contract.

I'm ... not sure you said what you meant to here? Your comparison doesn't make sense. It would apply if I was saying that Nomura owned the outfit for having designed it. That would be analogous to saying Uematsu owns his FF musical contributions because he composed them.

But in both cases -- Nomura's designs and Uematsu's compositions -- they are owned by SE. This is as true of the "Prelude" theme as it is of Genesis's outfit.

No, you're misunderstanding the comparison and the purpose of it.

The part I high-lighted should make it apparent. In the case of SE owning Uematsu's music, this is is different from them owning the rights to Gackt's clothing because Uematsu is no longer a Square Employee, whilst Nomura is.

The point I was trying to make is that intellectual rights do not automatically follow creators, or anyone in particular. Rights can be signed over to anyone, as long as the legalities are in order.

It is perfectly possible for me to design something for you, and for you to hold all rights to that thing. It's also possible for me to design something for you and for me to still retain all rights. It's also possible for me to design something for you, and for a 3rd party to hold all rights.

There is no hard and fast rule enabling anyone to determine simply based on who made something, who holds the intellectual property to that thing.

I was trying to illustrate that it's perfectly possible for Nomura to have designed Gackt's outfit, and the outfit still being Gackt's intellectual property.
I'm not saying that's the case though. I was merely trying to point out that you cannot assert that Gackt does not hold that property simply by virtue of it having been designed by Nomura.
That assumption does not hold water.


Gackt doesn't own the outfit or the character. He owns the likeness and voice of the character -- both of which could be easily changed in five minutes.

They could not. Again, doing this to avoid licensing breach for something like Crisis Core would require going into the files of the game, altering the 3D model, then also redoing the HD model used in the cutscenes, and re-render all of them, and then re-recording all the voice-clips used for his character throughout the game.

That is a massive, and expensive job that completely defeats the purpose of releasing the game digitally to begin with.
It certainly cannot be done in 5 minutes - or even 10, or 20 for that matter.

I seriously don't see what the complication is in putting a slightly different face on Genesis when his face (i.e. Gackt's) is already so generic.

Which again, is the problem. Since Gackt's face is "generic" as you put it - changing Genesis's face to not look like him sufficiently to avoid license breach would require major alterations.
In the context of CC, the job is large due to voice work and CG. In the context of the remake, the problem is that what point is there in reintroducing a character from the compilation if he now looks and sounds vastly different from his original incantation?


I do have to wonder, though, whether Gackt or his record label has the final say in matters such as these. Licensing legal matters are the biggest vat of shit, I swear.

That's not the issue really. The issue is that when I license is signed, you have to abide by it, or redraw it with the relevant parties.
Who has the last say depends on what the terms of the contract was.
Presumably, there was no clause in it for digital re-release, which is fairly common as far as the world of music goes.
This can be addressed, but only as long as the original parties come to an agreement on the matter.

In terms of Gackt's involvement the most likely explanation why no redraw has been made, and why no work-around has been found is the following :

Gackt worked on commission, which means he only got paid once for his work, and is not receiving additional money for copies sold of the game. That is the most common in which VAs etc. are paid for their involvement in games.
However, if a game is later digitally re-released, SE would still be profiting off of Gackt's face and voice, and he would not.
This is unacceptable to most people within the music industry, and so the most likely scenario here is that the original license agreement was one time use for one time distribution.

The reason there has been no renewal is simply because paying Gackt again for the license to use him defeats the purpose of a digital re-release since the game probably won't sell all that many copies being a straight up re-release, yet since there's also a possibility the game might sell better than projected, they'd still have to pay Gackt a pretty good sum of money in order to incentivize him to allow re-use.
I.E To digitally re-release CC, they would have to pay Gackt more money, while not even knowing if that investment would make a decent return.
At that point, why would you release it?
 
Gee, hian, thanks for correcting me.

Actually, I disagree. Some people do have very bland generic faces. It's usually people who are described as generically good looking. Yes, most Final Fantasy characters do have a certain similarity about them, although it's clearly not impossible for them to make truly masculine looking, hard-jawed characters (there's a lot more variety among the men than the women, I'll give them that). I don't know whether the similarity is due to the limitations of technology or the limitations of Nomura's imagination. You're right when you say I say that Gackt doesn't resemble them because he could resemble anyone. What I mean is that I don't see anything distinctively Gackt in any of them because he himself is so bland-looking.The most distinctive thing about him is his lack of distinguishing features. His face is boring. He strikes me as one of those people you could know for years but still not recognise when you pass him in the street, but at the same time you could easily mistake lots of other people for him. Maybe you've never known anyone like that in real life, but I have.

Takeshi Kaneshiro, on the other hand....
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
Right I was just reading the thread title and thinking about cool it would be to have guest party members, like XII did. (As a side note, will it again be only 3 characters present on the screen/active in battle?)
I mean it'd be pretty cool to have some of the Avalanche crew with you as guests, on the map and in fights. Especially if they add some more to the beginning, so you know them longer. :monster:

But yeah, anyhow, guest party members would be a cool thing to see the game implement. I loved it in XII and would love to see it again.
 

Unit-01

Might be around.
AKA
Sic, Anthony
^They could have people like Cissnei or Kunsel join you as guest party members if they wanted.

Kunsel with his infinite supply of Hi-potions like Larsa. :lol:
 
Can they be optional guest characters? I hate Kunsel. He spies on people and knows too much.

It would be quite sweet to put Reno or Rude in your party for fighting Don Corneo.
 

Unit-01

Might be around.
AKA
Sic, Anthony
You know I never thought of Kunsel that way... makes a lot of sense tho. :monster:

Well if we're going off XII's mechanic of guest members then he wouldn't be permanently in the party.

Like I could totally see for new side-quests having other characters with you. Just going to the beginning of the game... could Biggs,Wedge or Jessie be a guest member? Of course there is 0 indication of this in the PSX trailer. But if Square wanted to expand their stories they might temporarily join the party. This is of course outside the bombing mission.

After writing all of the above I see...
It would be quite sweet to put Reno or Rude in your party for fighting Don Corneo.
Just another example of using a similar system to XII for guests. I could totally see this.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I can't imagine that system working with 7's story as it did with Tactics/XII. In both games, the guests aren't a gimmick but a cornerstone of the story. In FFVII I can only really see it being used as fan service which I really want to avoid.

If we're expanding from the 3-per-team rule at all, how about letting us bring any and all party members along? If the PS4 can handle the AI of a veritable swarm of MPs, it can handle up to 9 PCs.

I want to control Vincent from the back of the fray, while ahead of me, Nanaki leaps, Yuffie casts, Tifa swings, Barret fires, Cait Sith shouts, etc. I know it's hypocritical to say, as I just bemoaned fan service... it can't be helped.

On a related note: I am planning to do at least nine partial playthroughs of the whole saga (once it's all released... unless it's crap) one playthrough following each of the PCs while the others act solely on AI/Gambits.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
This is more than I ever aspired to discuss Gackt.
We're talking major because when it comes to this particular "generic Bishonen"(I don't really agree that it's even that generic, except in terms of Nomura's own designs - because that particular style of design is actually not that common outside of his work) is tied to a license agreement.

Again - it is not the likeliness as you or I perceive it that matters here - it is what is written in contract in relation to a statement of resemblance.

What that means is that while Cloud could resemble Gackt on a fluke and be of no issue what so ever - Genesis, which was designed to resemble Gackt on purpose, is therefore also held to a higher standard if it is to re-purposed for use outside of the license contract.

It is a matter of creating a character that can no longer conceivable be thought of as still retaining the characteristics of the licensed character.

In terms of a character like Cloud, if someone like Gackt were make a law-suit due to similarities or something ridiculous like that - minimal difference is enough to provide a defense.
In the case of a character that was literally modeled after Gackt though - now you'd actually have to make major changes in order to make a defense against a claim of breach contract.
I get what you're saying, and it's a fine point, well made. How much is that a problem, though, when we're discussing a new title, as we are here?

Obviously it's difficult to answer that without knowing more of the specifics of the licensing agreement the parties entered into, but unless Square Enix lacked any and all foresight whatsoever (not just immediate gratification vs. consideration for the growth of digital re-releases), one has to imagine that there was some wording in there somewhere that made attempts at keeping the terms applicable only to DC and CC.

Now, you're more familiar with this sort of stuff than I, but even if that wording was there, I'm sure there are still circumstances where grounds for a lawsuit could be made -- perhaps "The defendant prominently featured the character who carried the plaintiff's likeness in a new composition outside the original contract upon which both parties agreed, but only slightly altered the character's appearance, thereby knowingly acting outside good faith and taking advantage of the marketing potential provided by the plaintiff's likeness after previously procuring its use through legitimate means on only a temporary basis."

But after ten years? With the only device that (legally) plays the game out of production? And without the game readily available for ongoing sale through digital means? With some hypothetical tweaking to the character's cheek bones or nose?

It would, to my mind, be hard to claim SE was taking advantage of the prior agreement. There's no reason, after this long, to expect consumers would be purchasing a new title because of "Oh em gee -- GACKT!!! Just like in that other game we just played!"

After so much time has passed that the passing resemblance of this fading star -- whose biggest claim to fame of late is holding a record on embarrassing New Years Day programming like "芸能人格付けチェック" ("Celebrity Classification Check"), where they do shit like try to guess whether they're drinking vintage wine or something picked up at the supermarket -- to a character becomes a matter of trivia to be looked up on the Internet rather than a common knowledge point of interest to drum up sales amomg the target demographic, you have to wonder why there should be anything stopping SE.
hian said:
No, you're misunderstanding the comparison and the purpose of it.

The part I high-lighted should make it apparent. In the case of SE owning Uematsu's music, this is is different from them owning the rights to Gackt's clothing because Uematsu is no longer a Square Employee, whilst Nomura is.

The point I was trying to make is that intellectual rights do not automatically follow creators, or anyone in particular. Rights can be signed over to anyone, as long as the legalities are in order.

It is perfectly possible for me to design something for you, and for you to hold all rights to that thing. It's also possible for me to design something for you and for me to still retain all rights. It's also possible for me to design something for you, and for a 3rd party to hold all rights.

There is no hard and fast rule enabling anyone to determine simply based on who made something, who holds the intellectual property to that thing.

I was trying to illustrate that it's perfectly possible for Nomura to have designed Gackt's outfit, and the outfit still being Gackt's intellectual property.
I'm not saying that's the case though. I was merely trying to point out that you cannot assert that Gackt does not hold that property simply by virtue of it having been designed by Nomura.
That assumption does not hold water.
If that were the entire basis for what I said, then sure. But the terms of the license contract (to the extent we know the terms at least, per the link I posted previously) included stipulations that Gackt would receive an actual outfit like the one designed by Nomura for the character with his likeness, and furthermore that Gackt would get to wear the outfit for his Diabolos tour and music videos contemporary to it.

The fact that there were stipulations on when he could wear the outfit to promote his music is all we need to tell us that he doesn't own it.

hian said:
They could not. Again, doing this to avoid licensing breach for something like Crisis Core would require going into the files of the game, altering the 3D model, then also redoing the HD model used in the cutscenes, and re-render all of them, and then re-recording all the voice-clips used for his character throughout the game.

That is a massive, and expensive job that completely defeats the purpose of releasing the game digitally to begin with.
It certainly cannot be done in 5 minutes - or even 10, or 20 for that matter.
We aren't talking about touching those pre-existing assets or digitally re-releasing DC or CC, though. We're talking about utilizing the character in a new title.

hian said:
I seriously don't see what the complication is in putting a slightly different face on Genesis when his face (i.e. Gackt's) is already so generic.

Which again, is the problem. Since Gackt's face is "generic" as you put it - changing Genesis's face to not look like him sufficiently to avoid license breach would require major alterations.
In the context of CC, the job is large due to voice work and CG. In the context of the remake, the problem is that what point is there in reintroducing a character from the compilation if he now looks and sounds vastly different from his original incantation?
Are we even talking about the remake rather than a completely new title set chronologically post-DC? Even if so, the point is that the character is now, for better or worse, integral to the overarching plot(s) of the setting. Making the best of that and finishing what they started with the character while utilizing a slightly modified design is far preferable to not tying up loose ends, to "tying them up" while pretending the character never existed, or to suddenly downplaying the character's established importance to the existing lore and replacing him with some brand new "previously unknown threat of even greater significance."
 
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