What is Hojo a Professor of?

That's more in line with what I imagined. I don't think the Planet was scheming anything, nor do I think the actions of the creatures living on the planet are in any way guided by it.

Yes, I think you're right, Ite. The voice of the Planet isn't easy to hear, even for Aerith. The people of the Planet need to work hard in order to understand what it wants and needs. It's like a little baby struggling to communicate its most basic wants. That's why it's so important for humans (and Nanakis) to remember to nurture the planet. It can't make us care for it. We have to understand for ourselves.

My headcanon was kind of that backwards. The Planet is so huge that it doesn't care about small things, it doesn't care about the welfare of its headlice. It cares about big things, like Mako reactors and Meteors and the thoughts are so huge and slow that they're hard to understand. If it senses a threat, it send Weapons to kill it, but otherwise, is indifferent to the life on it.

Yeah, the Planet is a sentient being but...not very intelligent. Or detail-oriented. Or both. I agree. (And then there's Minerva.)

The ideas about its priorities and that it might have wanted Sephiroth to exist so he and Jenova could be killed are really interesting, but they do require Bugenhagen to have been wrong about the primary threat to the Planet, and as he's out main source on how Lifestream energy works at all, once we start striking whole passages of Bugenhagen's lecture we're kind of flying without a net?

Sephiroth is marked as Hojo's work, sure, but that doesn't mean Hojo's actually responsible for any of the planning behind him or the success. Maybe he got lucky. Maybe Lucrecia did all the actual work. Maybe Gast came up with the framework of the Jenova Project and Hojo and Hollander each guessed at a method for maximizing the effectiveness of this cell-infusion idea. Nothing about the way Hojo conducts anything we see him do suggests that he's particularly brilliant, and everything suggests that he's the opposite of systematic. He's not good at science, in the abstract sense.

Yes, I really like the idea of an actively engaged, plotting and scheming Planet as a headcanon, but I don't think there's evidence in canon to support it. It's more of a "what if".

Kieron_ODuibhir said:

Yeah, the Planet is a sentient being but...not very intelligent. Or detail-oriented. Or both. I agree. (And then there's Minerva.)

The ideas about its priorities and that it might have wanted Sephiroth to exist so he and Jenova could be killed are really interesting, but they do require Bugenhagen to have been wrong about the primary threat to the Planet, and as he's out main source on how Lifestream energy works at all, once we start striking whole passages of Bugenhagen's lecture we're kind of flying without a net?

Sephiroth is marked as Hojo's work, sure, but that doesn't mean Hojo's actually responsible for any of the planning behind him or the success. Maybe he got lucky. Maybe Lucrecia did all the actual work. Maybe Gast came up with the framework of the Jenova Project and Hojo and Hollander each guessed at a method for maximizing the effectiveness of this cell-infusion idea. Nothing about the way Hojo conducts anything we see him do suggests that he's particularly brilliant, and everything suggests that he's the opposite of systematic. He's not good at science, in the abstract sense.

Click to expand...

Maybe but it's as if not more likely that he opposite is true. Marked as failure or not Hojo did create Cloud. Gast and Lucretia do not have more going for them that we should also figure them responsible for Sephiroth.

Minato said:

Maybe but it's as if not more likely that he opposite is true. Marked as failure or not Hojo did create Cloud. Gast and Lucretia do not have more going for them that we should also figure them responsible for Sephiroth.

Click to expand...

Yeah, all Gast has going for him is that he made an attempt to be systematic about recording Ifalna's data and the circumstantial bit that he was in charge of both halves of the program, both of which 'worked' even if Sephiroth had more Jenova and thus better superpowers. (Hollander appears to have been actively going for the super-transferable-genetic-identity-zombie-army-making powers, so arguably he succeeded at what he was trying to do too.)

And Sephiroth's opinion, but yeah he was ten at the most and biased. I think the way he said it suggests a habit of saying it to piss Hojo off, which in turn hints at the comparison being a weakness of Hojo's, but that's totally up to interpretation.

But with Lucrecia we know she successfully resurrected Vincent after he was murdered and experimented on, using an abstruse, complicated method she invented herself that requires getting human energy to work together smoothly with nonhuman energy. That gives her a better resume for being the one that got Sephiroth to come together without glitches, in my book.

I also just think Hojo's characterization is so much more interesting if he's acting out of deep-seated insecurity about not actually being a genius and trying to defy his limits than if he's just generically a crazy power-mad sadist, even one with monsters talking in his head.

Kieron_ODuibhir said:

Minato said:

Maybe but it's as if not more likely that he opposite is true. Marked as failure or not Hojo did create Cloud. Gast and Lucretia do not have more going for them that we should also figure them responsible for Sephiroth.

Click to expand...

Yeah, all Gast has going for him is that he made an attempt to be systematic about recording Ifalna's data and the circumstantial bit that he was in charge of both halves of the program, both of which 'worked' even if Sephiroth had more Jenova and thus better superpowers. (Hollander appears to have been actively going for the super-transferable-genetic-identity-zombie-army-making powers, so arguably he succeeded at what he was trying to do too.)

And Sephiroth's opinion, but yeah he was ten at the most and biased. I think the way he said it suggests a habit of saying it to piss Hojo off, which in turn hints at the comparison being a weakness of Hojo's, but that's totally up to interpretation.

But with Lucrecia we know she successfully resurrected Vincent after he was murdered and experimented on, using an abstruse, complicated method she invented herself that requires getting human energy to work together smoothly with nonhuman energy. That gives her a better resume for being the one that got Sephiroth to come together without glitches, in my book.

I also just think Hojo's characterization is so much more interesting if he's acting out of deep-seated insecurity about not actually being a genius and trying to defy his limits than if he's just generically a crazy power-mad sadist, even one with monsters talking in his head.

Click to expand...

Gast is the one that wrongly assumed Jenova was an Ancient which resulted in the Jenova Project, aimed at recreating an Ancient that would lead them to the Promised Land (given that Aerith doesn't appear to inheritely possess that information either, this part too was a false assumption made by Gast). In this, the collaborations that Gast, Lucretia, Hollander and Gillain participated in were failures. Genesis and Angeal were born normal children and Sephiroth while extraordinary did not possess knowledge otherwise unavailable to Shinra. Hojo's Sephiroth Clones, the ones he created without an equal partner, succeeded where all else had failed. They led the Shinra to their mako wonderland.

As for Vincent, Hojo was the one that resurrected him and made him immortal. He still missed something that stabilised his condition which Lucretia provided. It was a collaboration, I don't see why that is a plus for Lucretia and a minus for Hojo. He couldn't restore Vincent fully without her, she couldn't succeed in recreating the harbringer of the Planet's destruction without Hojo's durable vessel.

I'm pretty sure Vincent stayed dead until Lucrecia got involved? He certainly didn't wake up again until she'd already made off with his body and started tinkering. Huh.

XD Gast is a nincompoop, no arguments here, but considering the information he had on hand, concluding that the non-human corpse he'd found that matched descriptions of Ancients probably was one was logical. Determine the hoofbeats are not horse and you're on the savannah, it's probably zebras. If it turns out it was actually striped unicorns it isn't your fault you didn't consider the possibility, when you've never heard of a real unicorn ever. Or seen a zebra. And if (as seems probable based on the timeline) he invented SOLDIERs and the technique they're all using for infusing preserved-corpse-cells via mako into living things to perpetuate the sample's genetic code, he is maximum fail at achieving his goals, but he had skills.

Process is important in science, not just results, and results you get by accident and fail to notice and build on are the opposite of successful experimentation/development/research. Cloud is not an accomplishment to Hojo's credit because he literally just combined Sephiroth cells plus SOLDIER enhancement technique plus torture, and one result that managed to pull back from the brink of total crazy developed better superpowers. I don't think Hojo ever *wanted* to give Shinra stronger supersoldiers that could compete with Sephiroth, so not having figured out how to do this on purpose doesn't make him look bad, but doing it by accident doesn't make him look good, either.

Meanwhile Hojo's successfully broken Sephiroth Copies led Shinra to the Northern Crater with its wellspring of mako, sure, but he wasn't doing it to get mako at that point, he was doing it because Jenova is super cool. And possibly he really wanted to see Weapon in action. This guy is cracked. So yeah, that is one thing he did, on his own, that actually turned out as planned, but the only new science involved was the Reunion principle, which...where did he get that, actually? Is it an extension of how Genesis and Angeal's bodies worked combined with the specific way Sephiroth went crazy, or did Jenova just stick it directly into his brain? Anybody know?

^Jenova Reunion was a theory he was testing with the Sephiroth copies. In the OG it's never mentioned where he got it from. With CC, he probably got the idea from Genesis/Angeal and decided to see if Sephiroth could do it too. The fact that Sephiroth can't naturally make copies the way Genesis/Angeal can was probably why he had to do all the experimentation himself though... Otherwise I get the feeling he'd just watch and not involve himself so the data wouldn't be corrupted...

Kieron_ODuibhir said:

I'm pretty sure Vincent stayed dead until Lucrecia got involved? He certainly didn't wake up again until she'd already made off with his body and started tinkering. Huh.

Click to expand...

He was unconcious, certainly not dead.

XD Gast is a nincompoop, no arguments here, but considering the information he had on hand, concluding that the non-human corpse he'd found that matched descriptions of Ancients probably was one was logical. Determine the hoofbeats are not horse and you're on the savannah, it's probably zebras. If it turns out it was actually striped unicorns it isn't your fault you didn't consider the possibility, when you've never heard of a real unicorn ever. Or seen a zebra. And if (as seems probable based on the timeline) he invented SOLDIERs and the technique they're all using for infusing preserved-corpse-cells via mako into living things to perpetuate the sample's genetic code, he is maximum fail at achieving his goals, but he had skills.

Click to expand...

SOLDIER predates the discovery of SOLDIER but yes, he probably came up with addition of Jenova's cells. But you are not accounting for getting poor President Shinra's hopes up that it would lead them to the Promised Land.

Process is important in science, not just results, and results you get by accident and fail to notice and build on are the opposite of successful experimentation/development/research. Cloud is not an accomplishment to Hojo's credit because he literally just combined Sephiroth cells plus SOLDIER enhancement technique plus torture, and one result that managed to pull back from the brink of total crazy developed better superpowers. I don't think Hojo ever *wanted* to give Shinra stronger supersoldiers that could compete with Sephiroth, so not having figured out how to do this on purpose doesn't make him look bad, but doing it by accident doesn't make him look good, either.

Meanwhile Hojo's successfully broken Sephiroth Copies led Shinra to the Northern Crater with its wellspring of mako, sure, but he wasn't doing it to get mako at that point, he was doing it because Jenova is super cool. And possibly he really wanted to see Weapon in action. This guy is cracked. So yeah, that is one thing he did, on his own, that actually turned out as planned, but the only new science involved was the Reunion principle, which...where did he get that, actually? Is it an extension of how Genesis and Angeal's bodies worked combined with the specific way Sephiroth went crazy, or did Jenova just stick it directly into his brain? Anybody know?

Click to expand...

Cloud was wrongly deemed a failure, or rather they were gonna let him die because unlike Zack they didn't feel like putting in the time and effort to get him back to health and then broke out. The reaction that Cloud had afterwards was nevertheless NOT an accident, it was the one Hojo was specifically trying to provoke. Nor did he fail to notice, he grasped what Cloud was through ever since Costa Del Sol and further lead him on.

As for why, I think he came up with the Jenova Reunion Theory based on Sephiroth's reaction to entering the place Jenova was being kept, he did not have to slice her head off for one thing.

We don't really have enough information to judge their relative scientific merit. Maybe all the projects were done by some random lab assistant for all we know. But I don't think we can dismiss Hojo on the information we have. We get to see the dramatic results, we don't get to see the months of fine tuning that may or may not go into it.

I think - and I may be wrong - that although Hojo comes across as very arrogant, he's actually very humble in the service of science. And I think he was designed that way. I think he is intended to represent a certain kind of "scientific" mindset in which the means always justifies the end. i.e. it doesn't matter what uses your research will be put to by unscrupulous people, and it doesn't really matter who gets hurt along the way (science demands sacrifices), all that matters is discovering the truth. Whenever Hojo learns he's wrong he almost revels in it, because, again, the only thing that matters is the truth, not the feelings or pride of individual humans. Hojo really doesn't have any pride.

So I think what mattered about Hojo to the people who made the game is not whether Hojo is a good scientist or a bad scientist, but he represents a certain kind of attitude towards science, in which scientific "progress", i.e., knowledge, is an absolute and unquestionable good in and of itself, and everything which promotes it must be encouraged, and everything which questions or impedes it must be swept aside.

Hojo's feelings about Sephiroth are deliberately portrayed as ambiguous. The writers never make it clear to us whether Hojo at the end of the game is trying to help Sephiroth because Sephiroth is his son, or because he wants to discover the truth about what Sephiroth/Jenova can do.