Regarding ShinRa's mako exploitation

Was it ever made clear if they knew for sure it was the Planet's lifeblood and mined it anyway or were they skeptical of the "theory" so just went ahead with the exploitation? Or did they just not know altogether and really thought it was magic light (mako) sent by the grace of goddess Minerva?

For a while now, I thought they didn't know but considering the whole no flora thing in Midgar, the "theory" could have easily been hypothesized and then tested.

What does everyone think?

They obviously understood there's a finite amount of it, and that it was a life sustaining resource in nature. Within 25 years they were already in desperate need of starting up a whole new Midgar.

I have my own head canon that the real reason they dropped Sector 7's plate was because it was the the second poorest district, and thus people could no longer afford to pay to keep running. It would be too dangerous to drop the 8 sector and risk damaging Sector 1, which is the richest.

So basically they used Avalanche as an excuse to buy more time till they could track down the Promise Land and start Neo Midgar.

ChipNoir said:

They obviously understood there's a finite amount of it, and that it was a life sustaining resource in nature. Within 25 years they were already in desperate need of starting up a whole new Midgar.

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I agree with you. However, at the same time, I don't think they truly understood that mako was finite. It was running out in Midgar and they can't refute that; but President Shinra also sought the Promised Land where there were supposedly more mako than they'll ever need, i.e. infinite. (Or maybe I'm just putting words in their mouts because my memory of the game is foggy. Please correct me if I'm wrong).

As I type this I realize ShinRa could have been cherry picking the Cosmo Canyon's teachings regarding the lifestream and the Promised Land, and still their beliefs wouldn't be in conflict. Because believing in the existence of a land with infinite mako would mean that the possibility of the Planet dying from mako running dry is seen as BS.

ChipNoir said:

I have my own head canon that the real reason they dropped Sector 7's plate was because it was the the second poorest district, and thus people could no longer afford to pay to keep running. It would be too dangerous to drop the 8 sector and risk damaging Sector 1, which is the richest.

So basically they used Avalanche as an excuse to buy more time till they could track down the Promise Land and start Neo Midgar.

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This headcanon though. I love it! Never thought to view the plate dropping in that light before. It would certainly paint the late President as a more capabe leader befitting of a (evil) megacorporation.

Rep

I think my posts keep getting auto-modded.

I'm sorry if this is considered spamming. (I'll edit my posts later...once I'm able to)

ChipNoir said:

They obviously understood there's a finite amount of it, and that it was a life sustaining resource in nature. Within 25 years they were already in desperate need of starting up a whole new Midgar.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. However, at the same time, I don't think they truly understood that mako was finite. It was running out in Midgar and they can't refute that; but President Shinra also sought the Promised Land where there were supposedly more mako than they'll ever need, i.e. infinite. (Or maybe I'm just putting words in their mouts because my memory of the game is foggy. Please correct me if I'm wrong).

As I type this I realize ShinRa could have been cherry picking the Cosmo Canyon's teachings regarding the lifestream and the Promised Land, and still their beliefs wouldn't be in conflict. Because believing in the existence of a land with infinite mako would mean that the possibility of the Planet dying from mako running dry is seen as BS.

ChipNoir said:

I have my own head canon that the real reason they dropped Sector 7's plate was because it was the the second poorest district, and thus people could no longer afford to pay to keep running. It would be too dangerous to drop the 8 sector and risk damaging Sector 1, which is the richest.

So basically they used Avalanche as an excuse to buy more time till they could track down the Promise Land and start Neo Midgar.

Click to expand...

This headcanon though. I love it! Never thought to view the plate dropping in that light before. It would certainly paint the late President as a more capabe leader befitting of a (evil) megacorporation.

Fifty years ago everybody realised that oil and gas were finite resources, but it didn't seem to matter because everybody who was making decisions would be long dead by the time the oil ran out. I think it is very hard for human beings to grasp what finite means on a large scale. When there's twenty guests for tea and one cake on the table, it's easy to understand that the cake is a finite resource. But when there's only enough oil, or mako, or whatever, left for another hundred years, the end of that century feels so far away it might as well be an eternity. Most people are incapable of planning more than a few years down the line at best, and corporations tend to be focused on maximising profits today.

demonwolf said:

I think my posts keep getting auto-modded.

I'm sorry if this is considered spamming. (I'll edit my posts later...once I'm able to)

ChipNoir said:

They obviously understood there's a finite amount of it, and that it was a life sustaining resource in nature. Within 25 years they were already in desperate need of starting up a whole new Midgar.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. However, at the same time, I don't think they truly understood that mako was finite. It was running out in Midgar and they can't refute that; but President Shinra also sought the Promised Land where there were supposedly more mako than they'll ever need, i.e. infinite. (Or maybe I'm just putting words in their mouts because my memory of the game is foggy. Please correct me if I'm wrong).

As I type this I realize ShinRa could have been cherry picking the Cosmo Canyon's teachings regarding the lifestream and the Promised Land, and still their beliefs wouldn't be in conflict. Because believing in the existence of a land with infinite mako would mean that the possibility of the Planet dying from mako running dry is seen as BS.

ChipNoir said:

I have my own head canon that the real reason they dropped Sector 7's plate was because it was the the second poorest district, and thus people could no longer afford to pay to keep running. It would be too dangerous to drop the 8 sector and risk damaging Sector 1, which is the richest.

So basically they used Avalanche as an excuse to buy more time till they could track down the Promise Land and start Neo Midgar.

Click to expand...

This headcanon though. I love it! Never thought to view the plate dropping in that light before. It would certainly paint the late President as a more capabe leader befitting of a (evil) megacorporation.

Click to expand...

Its a very strange concept though for a company to pursue. There's a reason that oil companies try very hard to block advances in technology; They want to make money.

Infinite mako would mean they would never be able to justify the pricing on it. The reason the slums exist is they've gotten to the point where Mako is so expensive that only a certain amount of the public can afford it. Any place that doesn't have it is left to rot..

If there was EVER a real source of infinite mako, there'd be an attempt to compete somehow. Sure ShinRa would retaliate, but is that even a worthwhile risk?

I don't think the infinite portion is as important to them as much as the fact that they've tapped out every other place with a viable resource.

Un

I understand and completely agree. Whether ShinRa knew or didn't know, their decision can be explained as to why. What I'm trying to figure out is which side of the spectrum they were on regarding lifestream knowledge during the OG.

So far Licorice-san and ChipNoir-san seem to place your votes on that ShinRa fully knew the consequences (like we do about oil and gas now) and mined away anyway. I'm still thinking there's a chance ShinRa during FFVII was like the climate change deniers we have now. Is there some official material that can clarify this? Or just up to speculations?

LicoriceAllsorts said:

Most people are incapable of planning more than a few years down the line at best.

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Guilty. Planning a mere one week ahead gives me anxiety and hikikomori symptoms.

hm

ChipNoir said:

Its a very strange concept though for a company to pursue.

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In the company's defense, its staffs are strange too. Haha. Incompetent execs, mad scientist trying to mate interspecies two individuals who, even a middle schooler can tell you, clearly had several reproductive barriers.

ChipNoir said:

Infinite mako would mean they would never be able to justify the pricing on it.

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Well I mean, I'm not sure on this but wasn't ShinRa the only one who knew how to refine mako? Anyway, even without that, if they gain monopoly over the hypothesized infinite mako, they would still be able to charge however much they like. It's a monopoly. And considering that late President Shinra was trying to please the mass, wouldn't that be a drive to try and find a way to lower the mako cost back to a level where he can profit off of everyone, instead of just the people on the plate?

ChipNoir said:

If there was EVER a real source of infinite mako, there'd be an attempt to compete somehow. Sure ShinRa would retaliate, but is that even a worthwhile risk?

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I personally think it is worthwhile. Midgar and other places were running dry anyway. If they don't do anything the company will wither. Might as well take risk when you can still afford it.

ChipNoir said:

I don't think the infinite portion is as important to them as much as the fact that they've tapped out every other place with a viable resource.

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This though I agree. The infinite part is just a sweet bonus.

demonwolf said:

I'm still thinking there's a chance ShinRa during FFVII was like the climate change deniers we have now. Is there some official material that can clarify this? Or just up to speculations?

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Just speculations, but the parallel is so obvious I believe it's intentional. Climate change has been a global hot topic since the 70s -- twenty years before FF7 came out. Also, President Shinra I think was designed to look like Donald Trump, who in the mid-90s was the most recognizable face of Wall Street and a major advocate for irresponsible fossil fuel extraction.

In FF7, there's a general idea that the common people don't know or care what mako is. Shinra takes care of all that, so why worry? Even in Shinra, I doubt anyone except Hojo, Shinra/Rufus, and maybe Scarlet would know. And obviously, those three are so evil that knowing wouldn't change a thing. They're happy! Fuck the future.

I'd like to think that "Cait Sith" learns a lot about Mako when you go to Cosmo Canyon, and that it's a huge turning point for him. Bugenhagen may have left Shinra when he found out the truth (or when knowing the truth became too much of a burden) and perhaps Gast as well (although Gast was much more on board with shady Shinra stuff, it may have been Ifalna who stole him away.)

People in FF7's world might suspect that mako was damaging, especially if they live in Lower Junon or anywhere on the ground near a reactor. But what's the difference between general pollution and "drained blood"? The average citizen might not be able to tell.

And its not like there's an alternative. Funny thing that, that ShinRa sets fire to a COAL MINING TOWN.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of the coal mines have been burnt out intentionally. ShinRa can and will destroy any potential competition. So even if you didn't want to use Mako, unless you wanted to chop wood, you had no other resources. And even wood is a scarce resource. There's not a damned tree for miles around Midgar.

Mr. Ite said:

Just speculations, but the parallel is so obvious I believe it's intentional. ...Also, President Shinra I think was designed to look like Donald Trump, who in the mid-90s was the most recognizable face of Wall Street and a major advocate for irresponsible fossil fuel extraction.

In FF7, there's a general idea that the common people don't know or care what mako is. Shinra takes care of all that, so why worry?

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What I wanted to know, and more! Thank you! If President Shinra was designed after Donald Trump, Square Soft was uncannily accurate on what a facepalm-worthy administration he could recruit under his flag.

Considering the lifestream lecture the party gets in Cosmo Canyon, I don't believe lifestream knowledge was widespread either. Did ShinRa suppress it? Or did the Cosmo Canyoners just not care to pass that info along and only AVALANCHE tried (poorly) to spread it. Maybe both?

ChipNoir said:

Funny thing that, that ShinRa sets fire to a COAL MINING TOWN.

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Not sure if it's funny. I think they were pretty damn efficient.

ChipNoir said:

ShinRa can and will destroy any potential competition.

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Hear, hear.

As we have seen with climate change, it isn't necessary to suppress the information. All that is necessary is to mock it and trot out the occasional tame scientist to deny that's a) happening and b) the result of human activity. Not by accident do Cloud and Co continually bump into OCs who tell them how easy and comfortable their lives have become since Shinra invented mako energy. Given that humanity on earth aren't even willing to give up their cars, we shouldn't be surprised that the humanity of FFVII don't want to give up mako energy. How would they live? so what if it runs out in sixty years? So what if mako extraction is unsustainable for the planet? It's going to be someone else's problem.

I think they understand it has an averse effect on the enviroment, looking out at Midgar's surroundings makes that obvious enough. Don't think they got the killing the Planet outright part.

^So there's finally one vote on not knowing it was really the Planet's lifeblood? Or at least, not believing.

Because the Cosmo Canyon teachings are just up for grab, no need for any fancy intel team. So it all boils down to whether or not they had their scientists looked into it. Then again I'm not sure if they could have tested the hypothesis that less mako = less life on Planet without actually sucking up the mako pool.

They definitely know that it's linked to land fertility, but beyond that, we don't know. It seems to be only widespread knowledge in fringe places like Cosmo Canyon and among outliers like AVALANCHE, and we don't know how many of them actually knew that for certain or just adopted it as a convenient cause to justify their grudges. It may not be verifiable unless you have a Cetra or Cosmo Canyon native species to tell you what the Planet is screaming. Bugenhagen had to build that machine to hear the screams.

LicoriceAllsorts said:

As we have seen with climate change, it isn't necessary to suppress the information....so what if it runs out in sixty years? So what if mako extraction is unsustainable for the planet? It's going to be someone else's problem.

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Well, I mean in the real world the energy industry actually was the first to come up with conclusive findings on man-made climate change, which they then suppressed for the next couple of decades, and when independent science came to the same conclusions they then undermined and dismissed it as described.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the point at which Bugenhagen left Shinra was when he presented his findings on the long-term environmental impact of mako extraction and the President ordered him to bury this data and never let it see the light of day, even when Bugenhagen pointed out they might actually be looking at mass extinction events on a catastrophic scale.

It's probably pretty obvious to the average person that mako extraction isn't great for the environment--like, children in Kalm link it to increased monster attacks and Midgar is at the center of a blasted wasteland--but yeah, like you said. The public psychology on 'the resource we depend on for our lifestyle is an ecological catastrophe' is pretty well documented at this point. :/