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Old 1 Day Ago   #3901
The Twilight Mexican
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My analysis of Perona77's quite remarkable Pitioss theory is finally done. Assume spoilers for the entire game and all its associated lore are possible.

"I Pitioss the Fool"
To get us started, I have to say that there's no denying some elements of the theory simply ring true. They just feel right. The little sprig ornamentation Regis wears in his hair definitely evokes the hair on the statue at the bottom of the Pitioss Ruins, for instance, even if it's not an exact match for any strands. Along a similar note, some of the signs of a runny goo that can be seen in the ruins do, indeed, make one think of the muck that runs down Ardyn's face, if only because there's really no other imagery in the game that is similar.

I will add, however, that neither of these are among the stronger aspects of the theory -- the stains in particular, as these could as easily just be blemishes or claw marks, though from what, I couldn't guess.

Most obviously in favor of supporting this theory for me and probably everyone else, though: The Rock of Ravatogh almost certainly has a connection to Ifrit. I dare say making an argument that it doesn't requires contending with parsimony far more than does the opposite.

The horns are definitely there, as demonstrated by the image provided by Perona77 comparing Ifrit's horns with the concept artwork for the Rock of Ravatogh. They may not be exact, but they are there. They just are. You've got fire too, the relevance of which needs no explanation.

I'm less convinced about the presence of the wing from the angelic figure in the "Genesis" painting depicting the prophecy, in part because the shape simply isn't a match for the wing. You'd have to reverse several parts of the wing image while leaving several other parts alone to get it to line up closely, and even then it wouldn't be exact -- though I suppose if we're accepting that Ifrit's horns are present at the Rock of Ravatogh on the basis of a design that evokes them without being exact, it would only be fair to do the same here. For the sake of analysis, we will do that.

I will still have to say that the winged figure's appendage isn't present, though, at least not with regard to Final Fantasy XV as it exists now. Perhaps when the game was Versus XIII and the Rock of Ravatogh was originally conceived this could have been the case (note: I will expand on this train of thought further down).

More importantly than concerns about a shape that doesn't quite match up, in terms of the finished game's lore, the angel-like figure seen in the prophecy painting is obviously the Oracle; Lunafreya to be specific.

I say that without even necessarily invoking the game's ending, where Luna is revealed to be the similar figure in the game's logo. Were it not her in the painting of the prophecy, then she would go unrepresented in the painting of the prophecy. That simply wouldn't fit.

Shiva is there. Bahamut is there. Titan is there. Ramuh is there. Leviathan is there. The Lucii/Knights of the Round are there. Even Noctis, Ignis, Prompto and Gladiolus are there. Yet Lunafreya isn't there? No dice.

I wholeheartedly grant you, the figure in the logo wasn't always Luna. Even as recently as August 2015, after Tabata was in charge of the game's direction, the figure wasn't Luna. Instead, she was "the most important goddess in XV's world" -- which, despite the importance of the Oracle in general and Lunafreya in particular, wouldn't be an accurate description to apply here.

Nonetheless, per the finished game, the figure is Luna.

That being said, I do have to say again that Ifrit's horns are definitely there. We know Ifrit to have died once based on Shiva's words to him during the battle in front of the Citadel -- and the Rock of Ravatogh is doubtless where his body, even if no one else's, came to rest.

In line with that, I can even acknowledge that when looking at the Rock of Ravatogh area zoomed in on the world map, there does appear to be the unmistakable shape of a skull, complete with eye socket recesses. That being said, I don't know that we're looking at an actual skull here so much as topography deliberately designed in the outline of one to signify that something is, in fact, dead here.

Rather than this being, for instance, Ifrit's actual skull, we may simply be looking at geologic formations that, when viewed from above, would look like a skull when the right spots are shaded.

I'm also not entirely convinced about these rock formations being petrified wood, though some do admittedly look rather like burnt tree logs. If they were and became covered in ash, it's not out of the question minerals could have slowly filled in the spaces where the organic matter was and created a "petrified forest" of sorts -- but it's unlikely for such large pieces of wood to hold together long enough while being burned for that to happen. Especially not this many.

Furthermore, some of these "logs" appear to emerge right out of the adjacent rock wall rather than going all the way to the ground. That's not really what you would expect to find.

Rather than thinking about what these rock formations might resemble otherwise, do a Google Image search for "volcanic rock formation." With the exception of Ifrit's horns and possibly the towering "wing," you'll find that every pattern that can be observed at the Rock of Ravatogh can also be observed in the real world due to volcanic activity.

I will also have to contest tying Shiva's lines during the Ifrit boss battle to this suggestion that Ifrit erected a funeral pyre, even if it were proven correct. What she said to Ifrit in the Japanese script did not include addressing him as "Pyreburner," nor did she say anything that could be construed as referring to a broken heart. As can be seen in this video (at 10:49), she simply called him "God of Flame" (炎の神よ) and then said "That body should have already died. Wake no longer. Once more, by my hand ...":

その身はすでに死にを迎えたはず
目覚めてはならぬ
再び我が手で——

Also unconvincing is that this rock formation at the Rock of Ravatogh looks much like a foot. From that angle, sure, but investigated in a little more detail (see the 14:22-14:36 mark in Caelum Rabanastre XII/XV's video exploring the Rock of Ravatogh), it most certainly does not.

Moving back to points in favor of Perona77's impressive Pitioss theory, the rock(?) formations at the entrance to the lava-spewing cave in the area definitely do resemble arteries leading to a heart. Perhaps most startling of all when looking at this area, though, is that above and to the right of the cave entrance are textures that match the look of the Crystal's outer shell. There's no obvious reason for these textures matching those on the literal heart of Eos to appear here yet nowhere else -- no reason save for there being a connection between them, of course.

I'll also grant that, when looking at Amano's "Big Bang" painting, we see what is obviously Ifrit carrying a female figure; one who is the same female figure as depicted by the statue at the bottom of the Pitioss Ruins. The horns give it away for him even if, again, they're not exact, and while her outfit isn't a match for the statue's, the position of her arms places her in the same pose as the statue when it falls.

Added to that, the female whom Ifrit is carrying does appear to be getting rescued, or at the very least to be under his protection. That notion seems to tie well enough -- no pun intended -- with the shackle cuffs around the neck and wrists of the statue below Pitioss.

It's also difficult to see this artwork and the statue without recalling the concept art of Ardyn shackled in a similar pose.

Absolutely elements of this theory check out. Some things just make more sense by accepting a connection than by denying one.

At any rate, a theory such as this certainly becomes attractive when trying to explain the array of mostly useless items strewn throughout the Pitioss Ruins. It, again, seems like it would make more sense that they have some narrative value here rather than being present for their gameplay value.

What I would remind us all of, though, is what a nightmarish development this game had. How long ago did Amano illustrate "Big Bang"? If this interview is any indication, that piece was done long before the final details of world building would have been established -- before Hajime Tabata's tenure as lead developer. Which brings me to the first of the biggest issues I have with this overall theory.

First, it assumes the existence of an actual deity named "Eos" rather than just the planet. There's no basis for this within any of the FFXV media. I suppose it may well be that we're just referring to this hypothetical goddess as "Eos" for simplicity's sake, though, so I'll move on to a more blatant problem with the theory: it also assumes the existence of a Greco-Roman mythology-style underworld.

Not that FFXV lacks Greek and Roman influences even in its finished (well, nearly finished; there is story DLC still to come) form -- but how much from those influences can we assume have a one-to-one match to details within Eos's setting? For that matter, how much of those influences that were meant to be part of what was Final Fantasy Versus XIII ultimately made their way into Final Fantasy XV? More to the point: how many were left out?

Sure, there may have been an Eos deity at some point in the development of Versus XIII's lore, and even an underworld. And hell, maybe the concept of the Pitioss Ruins comes largely from a concept that had been part of the original Versus XIII lore. Maybe this entire theory is absolutely 100% accurate -- but only for the Versus XIII that never was. Maybe we're left only with artifacts of it, the same as we see artifacts of Versus XIII in other aspects of the final game.

Perhaps the Pitioss Ruins as we find them were essentially part of the lore for another game, or maybe the location was even inserted into this game as a tribute of sorts to what could have been.

Thinking about the Pitioss Ruins this way and then considering the "Omen" trailer for FFXV that was released shortly before the game itself seems to shine a light on things that begins to make sense -- but only when looking at the game from a meta perspective rather than a purely in-universe point of view. In other words, some answers may begin to reveal themselves when examining these matters from a real-world reference point rather than a point of view based within the fiction itself.

The information accompanying "Omen" on the official FFXV YouTube channel describes it thus: "This beautiful yet violent motion picture inspired by the world and story of FINAL FANTASY depicts an 'omen' for Noctis’ father, King Regis, of a catastrophic future that must be avoided."

Might the glimpses shown of this "future that must be avoided" have belonged to plot elements of Versus XIII? "Omen" shows us Noctis fighting Lunafreya to the death. In Versus XIII, Noctis was going to have to fight Stella (as seen in this 2008 trailer), the character who Tabata and co. later adapted into Lunafreya for FFXV.

"Omen" also gives us a sense of Noctis gradually descending into an underworld that exudes the influence of Greek mythology. He's eventually literally surrounded by fire and several Cerberus creatures -- Cerberus being the three-headed hellhound who Greek myth holds guarded the gates of the underworld.

By the end of the "Omen" trailer, Noctis even looks somewhat like Ifrit. He's bare chested; surrounded by flame; has fiery, demonic eyes; and even though the trident he's holding was Luna's weapon, it's hard not to think of the devil archetype Ifrit also evokes when Noctis is standing there holding such a weapon accompanied by all that other imagery.

Furthermore, the pose in which Ifrit sits on his throne when he appears in FFXV, while an obvious reference to Yoshitaka Amano's concept art of Chaos for the original Final Fantasy, is also reminiscent of the pose in which Noctis sat at the beginning and end of the original Versus XIII trailer.

Perhaps the story once would have featured some thematic parallels between Ifrit and Noctis. Maybe that would have even included not only a lost love, but also a coaxing toward evil. Perhaps.

All we can say to these musings is "perhaps," but we can say with certainty that the apparent madness that compelled Noctis to slay Luna in "Omen" has no obvious correlation in the plot or setting of the finalized FFXV. It seemingly belongs to another story altogether.

The most significant issue I find with the theory as a whole, however, is probably the most obvious: Setting aside whether Ifrit was a hero of the Pitioss story ("hero" being used here in the classical sense), he is most certainly not a hero during Noctis's story. As with Ardyn, any past heroism does not shed a heroic light on present villainy. At most, it highlights a tragic fall.

By the time of Noctis's day, Ifrit stands in the way of saving humanity and the very world. There's no reason for him to do so that justifies it and avoids him simply being what he appears to be: malevolent.

For that matter, I find the theory as it is written quite illogical in its conclusions about Ifrit's status as a savior. How is he more a savior than the Lucian Kings or the Oracles by supposedly providing the means to rid the world of the Starscourge ... if the theory is arguing that he caused it in the first place by doing the thing that supposedly provided the means to end it?

This aspect of the theory is absolutely nonsensical, as is this notion about Ifrit being burned in retrieving Eos's heart. Why is the god of fire, whom we see walking around engulfed in flames of his own making, getting burned by the fire of a funeral pyre he supposedly set alight? No sense to be found here.

And before moving too far from the subject of the Starscourge, it also strikes me as too difficult to ignore the implications of a relationship between the scourge and the Meteor caught by Titan at the Disc of Cauthess -- but I suppose that's neither here nor there. The origin of the scourge has yet to be verified, so I won't defer too much to one fan theory in the striking down of another.

I know shooting down this theory about Pitioss also leaves Doomtrain's apparent presence in Amano's "Big Bang" art piece a confusing mess, but, well, it's an Amano piece. Anything he makes is going to be a confusing mess.

Providing an explanation for why Doomtrain is there wouldn't answer why Odin and Sleipnir are there anyway, nor who all those other female figures are (seriously, there's four others aside from "Eos," only one of whom is probably Shiva).

Finally, I have to speak unfavorably to one of the grander conclusions drawn from this theory -- this being the notion that the first King (i.e. Ardyn) and the first Oracle are the children of a mortal and the winged goddess seen in the painting of the prophecy. As much sense as that might make in explaining their inherent abilities, and despite whatever sprigs are to be found in kingly hair, it's actually openly contradicted by pieces of FFXV's lore that are stated outright. The entry of the Cosmogony entitled "The Oracle," which can be read at the Wiz Chocobo Post, explains that the original Oracle was chosen by Bahamut, and that he gifted to her his trident:

"In the distant past, Bahamut, the Draconian, descended to the mortal realm and graced the people of Tenebrae. From among them, he handpicked a pious maiden and bestowed upon her the power of the Stars and his trident. Using these gifts for the good of all, she became the first Oracle—she who joins heaven and earth."

Furthermore, the Cosmogony entry entitled "The Crystal," which can be read at Maagho's in Altissia, establishes that, at the very least, the first King of Lucis was "born to a mortal":

"There once lived a man, born to a mortal but blessed with powers divine. Conjuring a collection of glaives he dispelled the darkness plaguing our star. As a reward for his efforts, the god granted him a holy Stone—the Crystal, which he was to guard at all costs, for it would one day choose a King to see us through the coming disaster and lead us to salvation."

These statements also more or less hold accurate when compared to the original Japanese text:

(from the Japanese version of the Oracle entry)
昔々、剣神がテネブラエの地に降り立ちました。
そしてひとりの女性を選び、星の力と逆鉾を授けました。
---
My translation: "Long ago, the Sword God descended to the land of Tenebrae. There, he selected one of the maidens, amd bestowed to her the power of the planet and a trident."

(from the Japanese version of the Crystal entry)
私たち人間の中にも、優れた力を持つ者がいました。
---
My translation: "There was a person from among we mortals who also possessed great power."

To conclude, what we have here is a theory with few strong elements, though those that are feel quite solid indeed. At any rate, it's a lot of fun to think about, and I have to applaud its designers for the thought that went into this, as well as just for making such a fun, stimulating narrative out of a part of the game otherwise devoid of it.
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Last edited by The Twilight Mexican; 1 Day Ago at 07:46 PM.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3902
Flare
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^(SPOILER)
Tres wrote: Thinking about the Pitioss Ruins this way and then considering the "Omen" trailer for FFXV that was released shortly before the game itself seems to shine a light on things that begins to make sense -- but only when looking at the game from a meta perspective rather than a purely in-universe point of view. In other words, some answers may begin to reveal themselves when examining these matters from a real-world reference point rather than a point of view based within the fiction itself.

The information accompanying "Omen" on the official FFXV YouTube channel describes it thus: "This beautiful yet violent motion picture inspired by the world and story of FINAL FANTASY depicts an 'omen' for Noctis’ father, King Regis, of a catastrophic future that must be avoided."

Might the glimpses shown of this "future that must be avoided" have belonged to plot elements of Versus XIII? "Omen" shows us Noctis fighting Lunafreya to the death. In Versus XIII, Noctis was going to have to fight Stella (as seen in this 2008 trailer), the character who Tabata and co. later adapted into Lunafreya for FFXV.

"Omen" also gives us a sense of Noctis gradually descending into an underworld that exudes the influence of Greek mythology. He's eventually literally surrounded by fire and several Cerberus creatures -- Cerberus being the three-headed hellhound who Greek myth holds guarded the gates of the underworld.

By the end of the "Omen" trailer, Noctis even looks somewhat like Ifrit. He's bare chested; surrounded by flame; has fiery, demonic eyes; and even though the trident he's holding was Luna's weapon, it's hard not to think of the devil archetype Ifrit also evokes when Noctis is standing there holding such a weapon accompanied by all that other imagery.

Furthermore, the pose in which Ifrit sits on his throne when he appears in FFXV, while an obvious reference to Yoshitaka Amano's concept art of Chaos for the original Final Fantasy, is also reminiscent of the pose in which Noctis sat at the beginning and end of the original Versus XIII trailer.

Perhaps the story once would have featured some thematic parallels between Ifrit and Noctis. Maybe that would have even included not only a lost love, but also a coaxing toward evil. Perhaps.

All we can say to these musings is "perhaps," but we can say with certainty that the apparent madness that compelled Noctis to slay Luna in "Omen" has no obvious correlation in the plot or setting of the finalized FFXV. It seemingly belongs to another story altogether.
I like your post, but I want to quote this piece because this different thinking about the Omen trailer gave me a thought I had never even considered: That the Omen trailer was a glimpse of the original story of Versus. Obviously not a confirmed thing, but wow, what a cool thought that is. I've been meaning to watch that trailer again; I want to do it even more now.

I love thinking that this amazing trailer was stated to be a nightmare Regis has but perhaps giving a subtle show of 'this was what Versus had'. It's very interesting to think of the trailer having that as a possible secret within it.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3903
Ryushikaze
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The trick to landing at the pitioss airstrip is to come in low and slow and line yourself up with the mining and treasure spots. When I say low though, I mean LOW.

I ran the whole dungeon last night myself. The underworld is where it gets frustrating.
And yes, if you try, you can totally sequence break the hell out of the upper section and ignore the entire trek into the darkness.

Silly Ifrit, you should have just used geometry exploits to rescue Eos!

Addended: Regarding the story of Pitiloss and the theory about it, while I do think it is Ifrit's story, it is the story AS IFRIT SEES IT. And Ifrit is a mad little bugger, what little we see of him. It's a biased story of a fallen tragic figure trying to say "This is how I tried to save the world and those assholes stopped me."

Oh, and the comment about the lady in the image being the most important goddess of the world...

Ending stuffage here I think it IS. Yes, Luna is a mortal woman, not a goddess, but so too is Noctis originally a mortal man before assuming the light of the crystal. I think the ending is meant to signify that he AND LUNA have risen to the status of gods as a reward/ result of their actions to purge the world of the starscourge, and now they reign among the other Astrals. Possibly the new Ifrit and Eos, or in similar roles.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3904
Blade
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About the recent interview, just because they wanted things from Noctis' POV doesn't really justify a lack of compelling indirect exposition.

Even in Batman Arkham Knight, the story doesn't really revolve around Batman, as you get these brief snippets of storytelling that are overheard from others' perspectives.

You literally have to play detective with some aspects, but at he same time there's enough actual story content to confirm any theories you might have.

I can't really say the same about FFXV, much less Pitioss. There's plenty there to construct theory after theory, but not enough to confirm suspicions.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3905
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@Tres: How do you say "party pooper" in Japanese?

I still think the theory is quite strong in spite of the evidence you presented, if only because the FFXV development cycle was such hell. Perhaps this was some dev trying to leave a hint at the story he wanted to tell (that's meta af, I realize, and I'm only half-serious).

There are going to be a lot of natural holes in any fan theory you can think of, hence why these things remain "just a theory, a game theory". You have clearly done your homework on debunking this theory, and I respect the hell out of the search for truth. But I'll stick with my assumption that this theory is at least 50% on the mark until we get a better one, or dev confirmation (or perhaps some DLC nonsense that explains it all).
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3906
X-SOLDIER
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Best through Pitioss today. All-in-all, it's a spectacular dungeon and at its best when it's designed like one. As soon as (SPOILER) the goes to the 2D view, it transforms into an exercise in arbitrary irritating precision. The 2D section hiding the player's PoV to Noctis killed my immersion and drove me nuts. Also, had to look up where to go to leave it because I couldn't tell you were supposed to walk up into the screen. Additionally, that continued with the statue room made me look up where the fuck to go about 4-5 times, and it was just… nowhere near as good as everything else. The resets were way far apart, not to mention, the fucking tedious climb out was pure hell, because it wasn't designed like a dungeon. It was just a series of "walk and jump across these unnecessarily small and narrow things and take 3 minutes getting back when you inevitability fuck up" took me fucking AGES to get out of these and almost completely made me hate the dungeon despite loving every minute up to the 2D bit and that part that followed. As soon as I was back up from it, I enjoyed all the rest of the platforming and wandering to get everything left that I could find. So good.

Damn shame about those last two bits though.


The timed hunt was excellent and I picked the perfect time to quit playing for a little bit just after Prompto hit 99, 'cause we're all accruing experience again and I've got three of the endgame dungeons left to attempt to farm up some XP.

Also, beat the Adamantoise. It was enjoyable. Saved the video as a stream. Here're some shorter random clips from what I did today:

YouTube Video


YouTube Video




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Old 1 Day Ago   #3907
Mustachio Bandana
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So my narration is done, now to get all the screencaps and put this into a video, Sarah Saga style. I did break up the narration into manageable chunks but the video will be one long run. I think I did a solid job with the narration and music selection throughout this epic story and if you want a sneak peak at the audio here are the links:

Foreward and Chapter 1

Chapter 2 and 3

Chapter 4, 5 and Epilogue

I didn't take anything from the Epilogue Part 2 in the comments section which was mainly CSI / technical stuff which didn't interest me as much as the lore and the symbolism was less precise. However I did take the last paragraph of that comment as it was the perfect way to end the story.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #3908
Ryuman
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I have to be honest; As cleverly put together as this theory is, there was a lot of eye-rolling going on from me towards the end. It just got really... fanwank-y? Still very cool, and there is clearly something to this. Even with all the holes in this interpretation.

Oh, and just a quick thing. In a follow up post there's a point that says:
This imagery of one wing raised to the sky has been around even back to Versus XIII days. http://imgur.com/g5sjRZ4
Anyone know where the art is from? I don't recall it.
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Old 23 Hours Ago   #3909
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That's from Lightning Returns:

One of the murals in the Dead Dunes



No idea where they're getting Versus XIII from.
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Old 23 Hours Ago   #3910
Amizon
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I'm extremely late to the party, but I purchased the Premium Digital Edition as it was £17 off on the PSN store as part of the 30th Anniversary sale. Not going to play it immediately, but I thought it was too good of an offer to pass up - especially with the season pass included - and the fact the sale finished tomorrow.

Probably going to do a Let's Play, but going to at least try to play SOME of this before Kupo Con.
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Old 10 Hours Ago   #3911
The Twilight Mexican
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Oh, forgot about this.
Mustachio Bandana wrote: @Tres: How do you say "party pooper" in Japanese?
和を乱す者 basically.
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Old 10 Hours Ago   #3912
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Oh man. The Ragnarok is OP as hell. …I love it.

Made it to level 101 today taking out the Steyliff EX Dungeon. Heading to Crestholm next, and then I am considering maybe possibly giving the fresh living hell of Costlemark EX Dungeon a go (without trying to cheese the shit out of it this time).





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