Final Round: Shinra Inc VS Alexandria
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Flintlock
Pro Adventurer
This is an interesting one, because at the height of their powers, both sides essentially controlled their respective worlds.
I'm going to put the case for Alexandria here, but hold off on voting in case someone convinces me that Shinra would win.
Shinra were reliant on technology, which, as witnessed by the destruction of Lindblum, was not enough to defeat the combined forces of General Beatrix's troops, an army of Black Mages, and an Eidolon. Admittedly, Shinra were far more advanced that Lindblum, but Alexandria only needed Atomos to take out Lindblum, while in this do-or-die battle against Shinra, they could call on many Eidolons at once to cause total destruction. The only thing that stopped them in Final Fantasy IX was
Shinra are still the larger force, so I agree that Alexandria would be reliant on a swift battle, but I think they could bring about a surrender by taking out Midgar, which might not even be all that difficult, for the reasons I listed above.
I'm going to put the case for Alexandria here, but hold off on voting in case someone convinces me that Shinra would win.
Shinra were reliant on technology, which, as witnessed by the destruction of Lindblum, was not enough to defeat the combined forces of General Beatrix's troops, an army of Black Mages, and an Eidolon. Admittedly, Shinra were far more advanced that Lindblum, but Alexandria only needed Atomos to take out Lindblum, while in this do-or-die battle against Shinra, they could call on many Eidolons at once to cause total destruction. The only thing that stopped them in Final Fantasy IX was
Kuja, once he had taken control of one of their Eidolons, but at the height of the empire's powers, he was on their side, not against them, and Shinra don't have any summons of their own to call upon in this fight.
Shinra are still the larger force, so I agree that Alexandria would be reliant on a swift battle, but I think they could bring about a surrender by taking out Midgar, which might not even be all that difficult, for the reasons I listed above.
Ghost X
Moderator
Alexandria is a stationary city. The sister ray loves stationary things, as does the Shinra No. 26 loaded loaded with huge materia =p. Tis a rocket that we can assume reaches escape velocity, which is no minor achievement, and probably not enough time to register any kind of defence against (same with the sister ray =P). Shinra is a a modern military force with radar, radio, submarines, aircraft, uh... how's a medieval force going to get anywhere near Midgar?
If Alexandria pull a pre-emptive surprise attack, perhaps during a diplomatic visit, it'd have to be co-ordinated to take out all threats.
If Alexandria pull a pre-emptive surprise attack, perhaps during a diplomatic visit, it'd have to be co-ordinated to take out all threats.
Flintlock
Pro Adventurer
Fair points, but I think Alexandria showed that they don't actually need their city to successfully take over others. Their airship fleet was enough. And despite their radar, radio, submarines, aircraft and so on, they weren't able to prevent Cloud's crew from parachuting directly into the city, so I'm not convinced by their effectiveness. The Sister Ray could perhaps take out Alexandria's Eidolons, but they aren't stationary targets, and it needs lots of time to reload after each shot.
I think my instinct was with Alexandria on this one because, as a player, we actually get to see them taking over the world with sheer force. Shinra are already the dominant power at the start of FFVII, and it's basically all downhill from there. Cue someone telling me to play the compilation
I think my instinct was with Alexandria on this one because, as a player, we actually get to see them taking over the world with sheer force. Shinra are already the dominant power at the start of FFVII, and it's basically all downhill from there. Cue someone telling me to play the compilation
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Oh man oh man would I want to see a battle between their top generals. So badass.
Damn dissidia 012 not including Beatrix
Damn dissidia 012 not including Beatrix
Kuja9001
Ooooh Salty!
- AKA
- roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
Going with Alexandria due to summons, Odin has enough power that appeared to be equal to a nuke. The sister ray isn't hitting Odin or Bahamut, a few mega flares to Shinra's reactors and they're done. Shinra would have to destroy Alexandria before they can unleash Alexander.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I voted Shinra, and here's my convoluted logic. In Crisis Core, Zack can defeat some very powerful summons (Bahamut) single handed. This would suggest that the power of the humans in VII compared to the summons is relatively strong, whereas the power of the humans compared to the eidolons in IX is relatively weak. If we assume that the summons/eidolons are unchanging in their absolute power between one game and the next, then the relative power of the humans in VII is much greater than that of the humans (and other species) in IX. If Zack can defeat Bahamut with relative ease, we can suppose it wouldn't give Angeal, Genesis, or Sephiroth much trouble to defeat Odin or Alexander. And the SOLDIERS move at lightning speed, whereas the summons/eidolons take a while to form and to gather their power.
I think it also depends on where the battle is taking place, and who attacks first. Shinra is very aggressive, but then so is Alexandria.
I think it also depends on where the battle is taking place, and who attacks first. Shinra is very aggressive, but then so is Alexandria.
Ghost X
Moderator
I'm not convinced a medieval military force, could ever take on a modern military force, even with powerful summons. I think Shinra even have superior intelligence capabilities, which would render a surprise attack unlikely. I agree that it would be interesting to see a match up with Beatrix and the likes of Sephiroth though.
Flintlock
Pro Adventurer
Alexandria's military isn't completely medieval - unless I'm mistaken and flight had already been invented in the 15th century 
The more I think about this, the more I believe that the nature of the fight would determine the outcome. The Sister Ray is probably the most powerful weapon available to either side, but what if, in the made-up world in which the fight will take place, Midgar and Alexandria are on completely opposite sides of it, each surrounded by mountains? Shinra would never be able to score a hit, while Alexandria could transport its Eidolons by air to Midgar. If the two cities are separated by little more than plains, however, then it's game over for Alexandria.
The more I think about this, the more I believe that the nature of the fight would determine the outcome. The Sister Ray is probably the most powerful weapon available to either side, but what if, in the made-up world in which the fight will take place, Midgar and Alexandria are on completely opposite sides of it, each surrounded by mountains? Shinra would never be able to score a hit, while Alexandria could transport its Eidolons by air to Midgar. If the two cities are separated by little more than plains, however, then it's game over for Alexandria.
Ghost X
Moderator
If the Sister Ray can shoot a charged particle beam around the curve of The Planet to the north crater - Midgar being roughly near the equator going by the map - I don't see it having any difficulty changing the trajectory slightly and firing it to strike an antipodal target. There's also Shinra No.26 to consider, and probably other things in the compilation I'm unfamiliar with 
.
I'm sure there is a possibility for Alexandria to win in numerous scenarios, but I'm voting on the likelihood.
.I'm sure there is a possibility for Alexandria to win in numerous scenarios, but I'm voting on the likelihood.
Kermitu Kleric Katie
KULT OF KERMITU
You forget to mention how Zack can defeat a FUCKING GODDESS.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in Shin-Ra's ability to use the No. 26 as a missile for anything that isn't in space. Yeah, it has to go fast enough to achieve escape velocity, but that same fact, in addition to its size, makes it impractical if aiming at a specific target on the other side of the planet. It just wouldn't be particularly maneuverable.
Not that it couldn't be done -- I'm sure a brilliant engineer, knowing how many miles the rocket needed to go, and knowing the engines' output, could calculate the exact angle to fire the rocket and when to cut the engines so as to let it go into freefall.
But if they were going to go to all that trouble, why not just use regular huge materia shells in the mako cannon? The firing angle of which is presumably a lot easier to adjust, and which wouldn't require a crew onboard to perform a suicide mission in cutting the engines, with the added possibility of operator's error fucking the whole thing up if they cut the engines a second too early or too late?
While on this topic, why the hell didn't Shin-Ra point the modified cannon (i.e. the Sister Ray) at Meteor?
Anyway, given the power of the Eidolons, I find it hard to believe Alexandria would lose easily, if at all.
I don't doubt that there are summons in FFVII's world that could destroy an entire city (if Bahamut SIN's super Megaflare had hit Edge in AC/C, I'm sure that city would have been toast), but we've never seen them used with the same ruthless efficiency as we did in IX.
Not that it couldn't be done -- I'm sure a brilliant engineer, knowing how many miles the rocket needed to go, and knowing the engines' output, could calculate the exact angle to fire the rocket and when to cut the engines so as to let it go into freefall.
But if they were going to go to all that trouble, why not just use regular huge materia shells in the mako cannon? The firing angle of which is presumably a lot easier to adjust, and which wouldn't require a crew onboard to perform a suicide mission in cutting the engines, with the added possibility of operator's error fucking the whole thing up if they cut the engines a second too early or too late?
While on this topic, why the hell didn't Shin-Ra point the modified cannon (i.e. the Sister Ray) at Meteor?
Anyway, given the power of the Eidolons, I find it hard to believe Alexandria would lose easily, if at all.
I don't doubt that there are summons in FFVII's world that could destroy an entire city (if Bahamut SIN's super Megaflare had hit Edge in AC/C, I'm sure that city would have been toast), but we've never seen them used with the same ruthless efficiency as we did in IX.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
Modern military technology, tactics, and firepower always beats a large enough gap in technology, tactics, and firepower, all things equal. Now, let's elaborate to make it totally fair.
-Alexandria at its height controlled the entire continent of Mist. However, one could argue that the actual territorial power it held probably didn't equate to the entire continent. It's grip was never long or relevant enough to draw upon the resources, loyalty, or manpower of the territories it conquered.
-Shinra has held total rule over almost the entire Planet of FF7 for some time, for a long time. It had complete and total power projection and could recruit, draw resources from, and project its will upon an entire Planet's worth of shit.
-The technology gap is immense, but Alexandria has an advantage in its (small) air force, which unlike Shinras, is actually suited for combat against other shit in the air.
-The difference between Shinra's army and Alexandria's army isn't even worth mentioning. An extremely large army equipped with automatic weapons vs. a smaller army fielded with swords? Okay.
-Eidolons are not to be fucked with. However I am wary of their tactical use against an enemy who has access to superhuman shock troopers and a worldwide intelligence agency. Would assassinating Queen Brahne be all that hard?
Just some thoughts.
-Alexandria at its height controlled the entire continent of Mist. However, one could argue that the actual territorial power it held probably didn't equate to the entire continent. It's grip was never long or relevant enough to draw upon the resources, loyalty, or manpower of the territories it conquered.
-Shinra has held total rule over almost the entire Planet of FF7 for some time, for a long time. It had complete and total power projection and could recruit, draw resources from, and project its will upon an entire Planet's worth of shit.
-The technology gap is immense, but Alexandria has an advantage in its (small) air force, which unlike Shinras, is actually suited for combat against other shit in the air.
-The difference between Shinra's army and Alexandria's army isn't even worth mentioning. An extremely large army equipped with automatic weapons vs. a smaller army fielded with swords? Okay.
-Eidolons are not to be fucked with. However I am wary of their tactical use against an enemy who has access to superhuman shock troopers and a worldwide intelligence agency. Would assassinating Queen Brahne be all that hard?
Just some thoughts.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
What's so interesting about this battle is not that its medieval vs modern/futuristic. It's the age-old magic vs. technology. SOLDIER and the Turks utilize magic of course, but on the whole, Shinra relies on their technology. Likewise, Alexandria utilized a couple steampunk-y things in the game, but their main strength are the black mage dolls and the eidolons.
And with that difference in mind, their surprisingly equal and different. Shinra troops, having guns, would mow through Alexandrian troops, but Alexandria would counter with the black mages.
Both powers only have 1 legitimate airship, though Shinra will have the edge in air power as long as the ranges are short.
Both powers have 1 incredibly powerful general that will cut large swaths of the opposing force until they encounter one another (again, doesn't that sound like an awesome as hell scenario?)
Shinra does have an elite unit that at least approach the strength of their general, so that could be another edge, but the black mage dolls are virtually limitless in supply.
The summons are interesting point Tres, I didn't think about that before, but the Compilation has given a precedent for VII's summons to be just as interactive 'outside the battle window'. They're kind of tricky because certain summons, such as Bahamut ZERO, just seem too strong to be feasibly real. Although FF9 has the same kind of disconnect considering that calling them in battle is not nearly as effective.
Crisis Core implies that SOLDIER has an unwritten rule about utilizing summons, but you know Shinra wouldn't be above it if they were really so effective.
Can't say I wouldn't be interested in the 13 Knights of the Round Table taking on Ark, though.
And with that difference in mind, their surprisingly equal and different. Shinra troops, having guns, would mow through Alexandrian troops, but Alexandria would counter with the black mages.
Both powers only have 1 legitimate airship, though Shinra will have the edge in air power as long as the ranges are short.
Both powers have 1 incredibly powerful general that will cut large swaths of the opposing force until they encounter one another (again, doesn't that sound like an awesome as hell scenario?)
Shinra does have an elite unit that at least approach the strength of their general, so that could be another edge, but the black mage dolls are virtually limitless in supply.
The summons are interesting point Tres, I didn't think about that before, but the Compilation has given a precedent for VII's summons to be just as interactive 'outside the battle window'. They're kind of tricky because certain summons, such as Bahamut ZERO, just seem too strong to be feasibly real. Although FF9 has the same kind of disconnect considering that calling them in battle is not nearly as effective.
Crisis Core implies that SOLDIER has an unwritten rule about utilizing summons, but you know Shinra wouldn't be above it if they were really so effective.
Can't say I wouldn't be interested in the 13 Knights of the Round Table taking on Ark, though.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
But keep in mind that Alexandria's Black Mages are at least buffered by Shinra's ability to mass produce Materia. You don't see common foot soldiers using it in the games, but if they were faced with an enemy that did use Magic, you can bet that Shinra would change their strategy to include Materia in the infantry.
Jiro
Average Jiro
I've missed everything up til now, but I want to add some possible talking points to add to the discussion. I cannot remember if we're taking, say, end-game nations or most powerful nations or whatever, but that's my fault for being an absent dick.
Given that Alexandria's summon power is pretty much vested in Queen Garnet, what are the limitations on who else from the party fights alongside them? For instance, Zidane as probably-prince would be a member of Alexandria. Vivi's kids would also likely fight, given their appearance there in the credits. Steiner and Beatrix would be there of course, and they are pretty fucking powerful.
Eiko is technically a citizen of Lindblum now (and ignoring the idea that the two would undoubtedly unite in a serious conflict), but her powers would be a huge contribution. Then you have Freya et al, who have minor connections to Alexandria and would likely have no reason to join in aside from the whole invasion from another world and party loyalty business.
ShinRa, on the other hand, has a pretty large ground force with versatile and modern weapons along with a big group of mako/jenova injected roidragers. Whether or not this takes part pre-OG (and so, theoretically, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal et al would be fighting alongside them) or anywhere else (post or during OG would give them use of the Sister Ray which is freaking lethal), Shinra is not going to be a push over.
They have a relatively comparable airforce - Gelnika's would probably be quite useful, and the helicopters could probably be transformed into warfare-ready vehicles too. Alexandria still probably has the advantage in the air, but only just.
All of Shinra's troops have the ability to use materia and (theoretically) this includes summons, giving them the ability to match Alexandria.
Don't forget submarines, too! Alexandria's navy has no chance there.
I dunno man. I voted Shinra but it could go either way, depending on who takes part. A lack of main party support for Shinra (Cloud and co. would likely side with Alexandria first because fuck they hate Shinra) really hurts their chances but they're pretty fucking industrious, and they did start out as an arms corporation.
Given that Alexandria's summon power is pretty much vested in Queen Garnet, what are the limitations on who else from the party fights alongside them? For instance, Zidane as probably-prince would be a member of Alexandria. Vivi's kids would also likely fight, given their appearance there in the credits. Steiner and Beatrix would be there of course, and they are pretty fucking powerful.
Eiko is technically a citizen of Lindblum now (and ignoring the idea that the two would undoubtedly unite in a serious conflict), but her powers would be a huge contribution. Then you have Freya et al, who have minor connections to Alexandria and would likely have no reason to join in aside from the whole invasion from another world and party loyalty business.
ShinRa, on the other hand, has a pretty large ground force with versatile and modern weapons along with a big group of mako/jenova injected roidragers. Whether or not this takes part pre-OG (and so, theoretically, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal et al would be fighting alongside them) or anywhere else (post or during OG would give them use of the Sister Ray which is freaking lethal), Shinra is not going to be a push over.
They have a relatively comparable airforce - Gelnika's would probably be quite useful, and the helicopters could probably be transformed into warfare-ready vehicles too. Alexandria still probably has the advantage in the air, but only just.
All of Shinra's troops have the ability to use materia and (theoretically) this includes summons, giving them the ability to match Alexandria.
Don't forget submarines, too! Alexandria's navy has no chance there.
I dunno man. I voted Shinra but it could go either way, depending on who takes part. A lack of main party support for Shinra (Cloud and co. would likely side with Alexandria first because fuck they hate Shinra) really hurts their chances but they're pretty fucking industrious, and they did start out as an arms corporation.
Ghost X
Moderator
What makes us think Alexandria have air superiority? Mist is required for them to run. Are we going to assume mist exists around the city of Midgar, or recognise this severe disadvantage. Also take a look at the difference:
Red Rose:
Highwind:
Alexandria is no Lindblum with all the engineering technology and such. A jet is also seen in bone village, though its origins are ambiguous, but from the compilation at least, we can assume Shinra's air technology is pretty good. In my opinion, if the Red Rose came up against the Highwind, it'd be like an galleon going against an iron clad.
To reach Midgar, like Brahne reached the Outer continet, I think it is only fair to assume they'd have to go by sea or land (assuming a land bridge exists). Shinra have submarines, so the sea is not a viable option. Mwahaah.
Red Rose:
Highwind:
Alexandria is no Lindblum with all the engineering technology and such. A jet is also seen in bone village, though its origins are ambiguous, but from the compilation at least, we can assume Shinra's air technology is pretty good. In my opinion, if the Red Rose came up against the Highwind, it'd be like an galleon going against an iron clad.
To reach Midgar, like Brahne reached the Outer continet, I think it is only fair to assume they'd have to go by sea or land (assuming a land bridge exists). Shinra have submarines, so the sea is not a viable option. Mwahaah.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
We seem to be assuming that Alexandria is going to attack Midgar, rather than vice versa. Why?
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Ghost X
Moderator
"All that X has to do is Y" Okay, but which side is more likely to do Y? Who has more capacity?
If I recall correctly, mountain ranges surround the northern crater, and Midgar is a long way around the curvature of the Planet from it too, therefore I think it could be easily argued there is no obstacle in striking Alexandria.
The Highwind may be unarmed, but its not like it couldn't be loaded with Shinra's variety of mechanised weapons, or simply fly over the Red Rose (which runs on mist, therefore could arguably only be used defensively), and dump a load of SOLDIERs on it =p.
Alexander requires two pieces of some gemstone to awaken, iirc, and is promptly destroyed by Kuja in the game. If you're using Alexandria at its strongest, Alexander may not be an option for you
. This is really besides the point though, even if Alexandria had all its assets it was shown with during the game, I still think Shinra would win .
To me its like saying a 17th century army (at the latest) with airship technology and a few equivalents of nuclear weapons (the Eidelons) could take on a modern military and win. No way in the world =p.
If I recall correctly, mountain ranges surround the northern crater, and Midgar is a long way around the curvature of the Planet from it too, therefore I think it could be easily argued there is no obstacle in striking Alexandria.
The Highwind may be unarmed, but its not like it couldn't be loaded with Shinra's variety of mechanised weapons, or simply fly over the Red Rose (which runs on mist, therefore could arguably only be used defensively), and dump a load of SOLDIERs on it =p.
Alexander requires two pieces of some gemstone to awaken, iirc, and is promptly destroyed by Kuja in the game. If you're using Alexandria at its strongest, Alexander may not be an option for you
. This is really besides the point though, even if Alexandria had all its assets it was shown with during the game, I still think Shinra would win .To me its like saying a 17th century army (at the latest) with airship technology and a few equivalents of nuclear weapons (the Eidelons) could take on a modern military and win. No way in the world =p.
Teioh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Teiocho
I thought the Highwind was armed since (it appears to me) Cid uses it to attack enemies whenever he uses his final limit break?
"The airship is also used as a part of Cid's Limit Break Highwind, in which the Highwind rains 18 missiles down on random targets." - from the wikia page for the Highwind
Though I don't think it was ever used outside of battle, iirc you end up ramming Ultimate Weapon instead of firing at it.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Alexander requires two pieces of some gemstone to awaken, iirc, and is promptly destroyed by Kuja in the game. If you're using Alexandria at its strongest, Alexander may not be an option for you
Well, we are giving Shin-Ra the Sister Ray, which it did not have from the point in time we classified as Shin-Ra's strongest (i.e. pre-Crisis Core). They had the mako cannon, yes, but it's technically not the Sister Ray until it was moved to Midgar and hooked up to the mako reactors.
I've been assuming "at their best" meant giving these factions all the assets they have possessed, at the greatest strength those assets were at a time when they actually were used by the faction in question -- in other words, all their good shit.
So Shin-Ra can have Sephiroth, but no greater than he was when he worked for them. Likewise with Cloud. They also get the Sister Ray.In any case, Alexander presumably isn't gone forever any more than Bahamut was after Alexander killed him.
No way but nuclear weapons perhaps? =P
I've always been of the impression the Highwind didn't actually have missiles. The vehicle schematics in the Ultimania Omega don't mention the ship carrying an armament, despite similar schematics for the Ragnarok in VIII's Ultimania detailing its weapon system.
Even the Shera airship didn't have missiles, and if it's the "latest model," one would assume it should have weapons if the original ship did.