After the lifestream

Shizuka

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Sorry guys for all the "Sephiroth topics" I seem to have more questions than answers than any other character. But this does involve Cloud as well.

Ok so we know the story Sephiroth goes mad, he gets thrown or jumps into the lifestream depending which one you prefer. I take note from the OG. From my knowledge he learns everything about his birth and recieves the knowledge of the Ancients. My point is why does he decide to stay evil and become a god? (Sure his birth was cruel, he had a crappy time but to take it that extreme?)

Sane Sephiroth and crazy Sephiroth are a huge contrast. He's way too cocky when evil (sure he knew he was powerful but he didn't underestimate opponents the way he does now) my point is did he loose his mind that badly in Nibilhiem? That even learning the truth couldn't bring the old Sephiroth back? Because some people seem to have the opinion that he was always power hungry but in CC it really doesn't portray that.


Now Cloud when he goes into the lifestream and Tifa helps him regain his memories he doesn't snap. At the experiments that happened to him infact he doesn't seem too fazed by it. Is this because he has the mission to save the planet and once he does that everything hits him like a ton of bricks?

In ACC we see he did not handle Aerith's death well at all, he could g handle the legacy Zack gave to him (not may could) and he finds it hard to rely on others. In the OG there is a dramatic change of character to Cloud in ACC my question is this all because of the turmoil he has gone through?
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
In Sephiroth's case, I tend to think at least a little bit of it is because of Jenova. The Ultimania Omega does say that she influenced him when he went nuts in Nibelheim, but to what degree its insincts continued to come out in him is unclear.

I'd say more but have written about it before. You may find the first entry on this page interesting:

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...arding-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/2/
 
Shizuka

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Thank you Hawkeye I have read that before and found it highly interesting. I understand Jenova influenced him in the reactor.

But in the lifestream was that influence still there? Because he literally found out everything or was he too far gone into madness that by even finding out the truth didn't matter?

There is just such a leap from sane to crazy Sephiroth
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Maybe learning the truth actually made him write off humanity and the planet as a lost cause after realizing all that ever has been handed him were lies.
 
Unlucky

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
I'd like to think that a major reason why Seph became so bitter was because he felt taken advantage of on top of being fooled. He served Shinra all those years, perhaps thinking that that's all he was for, when in truth he was a god amongst them and men in general, or at least that's what he thought.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Which relates back to the previous topic of why he was content to serve them for so long. When he realised he'd totally wasted his life, and been exploited and lied to, by a bunch of inferior beings to whom he had dedicated his service... Oh well, you already said it better than I can, Unlucky.

Shinra, and mankind in general, reaping what they sow is a big theme of this game.
 
Unlucky

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
I guess that's where the insecurity comes in. Perhaps his arrogance, despite having some authenticity to it, was a mask for the emptiness/ isolation seething inside. He may not have been vocal about it, but who knows if he had thought of leaving before, but then came to the conclusion that there would be nothing else for him outside of fighting for Shinra? He had no friends (or so we believed in the OG), no relationships or hobbies whatsoever, and most probably he was brainwashed since childhood to believe so.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Shizuka said:
Sorry guys for all the "Sephiroth topics" I seem to have more questions than answers than any other character. But this does involve Cloud as well.

Ok so we know the story Sephiroth goes mad, he gets thrown or jumps into the lifestream depending which one you prefer. I take note from the OG. From my knowledge he learns everything about his birth and recieves the knowledge of the Ancients. My point is why does he decide to stay evil and become a god? (Sure his birth was cruel, he had a crappy time but to take it that extreme?)

Sane Sephiroth and crazy Sephiroth are a huge contrast. He's way too cocky when evil (sure he knew he was powerful but he didn't underestimate opponents the way he does now) my point is did he loose his mind that badly in Nibilhiem? That even learning the truth couldn't bring the old Sephiroth back? Because some people seem to have the opinion that he was always power hungry but in CC it really doesn't portray that.


Now Cloud when he goes into the lifestream and Tifa helps him regain his memories he doesn't snap. At the experiments that happened to him infact he doesn't seem too fazed by it. Is this because he has the mission to save the planet and once he does that everything hits him like a ton of bricks?

In ACC we see he did not handle Aerith's death well at all, he could g handle the legacy Zack gave to him (not may could) and he finds it hard to rely on others. In the OG there is a dramatic change of character to Cloud in ACC my question is this all because of the turmoil he has gone through?
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Sephiroth was always heavily invested in his own superiority. He was content being the welldeserved hero of the Shinra organisation, when that turned out to be all lies he found solace in being the last Ancient and thereby. by his reasoning, the Chosen One, when he learned that was a lie to and learned he was the spawn of a calamity of the sky he just embraced that as what makes him better then the rest.

He might seem too well-adjusted in Crisis Core but Genesis' whole motivation was "I wish was as glorious and famous and not dying of degradation as you, Sephiroth", faced with a guy like that Sephiroth does pretty well.

And I think too much is made of evil Sephiroth's cockyness. He accurately measures how well he can handle Tifa's dad, Zack, Tifa, President Shinra, AVALANCHE, the upper levels of Shinra building, Tseng, Aerith, Holy and the Lifestream. It's just Cloud who he underestimates. Again, because after everything that happened his ego won't allow for it.
 
C

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
And I think too much is made of evil Sephiroth's cockyness. He accurately measures how well he can handle Tifa's dad, Zack, Tifa, President Shinra, AVALANCHE, the upper levels of Shinra building, Tseng, Aerith, Holy and the Lifestream. It's just Cloud who he underestimates. Again, because after everything that happened his ego won't allow for it.
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One of the things that stood out for me in the original game was how uncocky Sephiroth was compared to most video game villians.

Standard video game plot. Villain initiates evil plan, challenges world to stop him, makes speech about how the heroes can't possiblly beat him.

Final fantasy 7: Sephiroth initiates evil plan. Puts in place barrier to keep everyone off his back, including the WEAPONS, which deprived of their target, go after his main opposition. Barrier destroyed through extreme measure. heroes cut path to villain. Uses army of monsters to attack them, splitting party. Shows up. No evil speech, attacks immediately. Heroes realise that even with Holy, he's 'way outta our league'. No posturing once his plan's in place, just show up and go for the kill.

Of course, then came AC
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Even in the original game, he was terribly cocky. Everything he did before the first item on your list was dick around with Cloud and avoid killing the playable party despite countless opportunities.

So, more than half the game. :monster:
 
Shizuka

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
In the OG I agree that before his madness, he was calm, cocky and aloof. And his attitude really is his downfall. Which again isn't that generally the storyline of heroes and villains?

But I don't know how many people played on the Japanese version of CC but in that his character isn't all out cocky for someone who's that powerful (anyone with that terms of powerful sure they are going to have some level of arrogance) but he really resents being a hero/famous. In the English version he does come across more and arrogant.

As for after he found out the entire truth in the lifestream
and again I can see why he chose Jenova as the "mother" rather than his biological mother. But he really took the whole "I've been lied to my entire life so I'm going to destroy humanity and do what mother did before me."

I know this has been talked about before he really couldn't of had a sense of himself before loosing his mind. He really lost it big time and it was all from reading the research. Granted what he found out was horrible but his reaction was extreme to say the least.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Shizuka said:
In the OG I agree that before his madness, he was calm, cocky and aloof. And his attitude really is his downfall. Which again isn't that generally the storyline of heroes and villains?

But I don't know how many people played on the Japanese version of CC but in that his character isn't all out cocky for someone who's that powerful (anyone with that terms of powerful sure they are going to have some level of arrogance) but he really resents being a hero/famous. In the English version he does come across more and arrogant.

As for after he found out the entire truth in the lifestream
and again I can see why he chose Jenova as the "mother" rather than his biological mother. But he really took the whole "I've been lied to my entire life so I'm going to destroy humanity and do what mother did before me."

I know this has been talked about before he really couldn't of had a sense of himself before loosing his mind. He really lost it big time and it was all from reading the research. Granted what he found out was horrible but his reaction was extreme to say the least.
Click to expand...

Well again, during the Nibelheim incident his breakdown was help due to Jenova messing with his head. This had ended by the time the game starts but that's after he spent five years travelling the Lifestream and absorbing the knowledge of the dead. If he didn't feel thoroughly disconnected from humanity before,h he did by then.
 
Shizuka

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
I know Jenova influenced him during that time. I wonder what he learnt in the lifestream to go again humanity so badly.
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Well... finding out that your mom is actually an alien from outer space would probably do it... especially if she's the mom who you thought cared for you...
 
Shizuka

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
True but Lucrecia biologically his mum. But finding out that you're two wacko parents had cells of an unknown origin creature probably would tip you other the edge.

I really rubbish when it comes to science. So what exactly is Sephiroth? And biologically is Lucrecia his mother or Jenova. I know Lucrecia carried him its all the genetics I get confused with. Clearly he has many of Jenova's.
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Sephrioth's genetics come from Hojo, Lucrecia, and Jenova... However, his parents are Hojo and Lucrecia with Jenova genetics added in later.
 
Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Sephrioth is pretty much this until Cloud knocks him into the Lifestream. Then he's formed out of who-knows-what. It's most likely mako though.

It should be noted that this also true for Genesis, Angeal, Cloud, Zack, every other SOLDIER in the games, the Genesis-copies and the Sephrioth-copies. The only difference between them is what they got from Jenova ability-wise and how much Jenova genetics were added. Zack and the rest of SOLDIER aren't anywhere near as enhanced as Sephiroth is because they got Jenova genetics way later in life then Sephrioth did (Sephiroth got them before he was born).

Genesis and Angeal got Jenova genetics in a different way then Sephiroth did so they have different abilities, including what lead them to have degradation.

Cloud and the Sephiroth-copies got Sephrioth's genetics and through that they got some of Jenova's genetics as well.

So you got a lot of Jenova enhanced humans running around and Sephrioth has the most extrema enhancements out of all of them.

If anyone finds any retcons for this stuff, let me know...
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
I think that's pretty much spot-on. Only adjustment I would make is that I would personally venture to guess that Sephiroth's body post-Nibelheim is mostly Jenova's cellular material, what with the reforming it after it dissolved and later returning to life when one of his shinentai came in contact with Jenova's remaining cells that Rufus had.
 
Masamune

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Seeing as the concept of 'spirit bodies' existed in the original game (the Cetra in the Temple of the Ancients, even the dudes in Beginner's Hall), albeit incidentally, it's curious that Sephiroth didn't go down that route when he emerged from the Lifestream, preferring instead to cocoon himself in Mako. I know the short answer is PLOT, but in arguendo what would stop him from using a spiritual body to achieve his goal rather than a wholly physical one?

If we assume that the metaphysics of FFVII & FFX have a similar understanding, then shouldn't Sephiroth (in theory) be able to manipulate spirit energy the same way as Seymour to augment his powers when he was unsent?

ETA: Also, if Sephiroth's body is Jenova-based at the Northern Crater, why would he need the clones to restore his body in the first place? Jenova is a shapeshifter. A single tentacle can warp into a 20 ft abomination. Surely Sephiroth should have no hassle in reconstructing a new body?
 
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The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don't think the clones were for his body, though. If I remember correctly, the Ultimania Omega said that the cells in them went into Jenova Synthesis.

I think he really went to all the trouble of remaking his body from as much of the original stuff as he could recover.
 
Masamune

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Hawkeye said:
I think he really went to all the trouble of remaking his body from as much of the original stuff as he could recover.
Click to expand...

Surely none of Sephiroth's original body would've remained. That would've dissolved the moment he fell into the Mako furnace; Jenova, however, cannot be absorbed into the Lifestream, so his consciousness and the Jenova remains washed up at the Northern Crater and from there he used the cells to reconstruct a new body? That still begs the question: How come Sephiroth can manipulate Jenova's mass (from dismembered limb to fully grown monster), but can't accelerate his own reparation?
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It is a great question. He also pretty much instantaneously turns a handful of Jenova goo into a full body in Advent Children when Kadaj comes in contact with it.

I guess that's why I think he must have gone to the trouble of recovering whatever he could of the original body. But that still doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
Unlucky

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
^I have nothing substantial to add, just my personal take on things-- if I knew I had the power to recover what's left of my original body, then I would. :desu:

But Masamune is right. I dunno, I guess "plot" :quote:
 
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