Lucrecia's Portrayal In Dirge Of Cerberus

Lucrecia next to Genesis is one of most hated characters in the Final Fantasy 7 universe. The main reason comes from this game where she is portrayed as very unlikable with many noting how selfish, immature, and obnoxious she could be. The narrative tries to make us sympathize with her but it instead shows how in the heck could Vincent still be in love with her after all she put him through. In fact the way she is written is actually kind of in connection to some reasons why fans don't like Genesis.

In fact before the game a lot of fans felt very sorry for her because they felt that maybe she really didn't want to go through with the experimentation and was probably coerced by Hojo to do it. However, Dirge of Cerberus squashes that notion and shows that she was 100% on board with it and even sounded indignant about Vincent actually caring for her and her own child's safety.

I think another thing that annoys fan is the explanation why she chose Hojo. In the original Ultimanias it says she chose Hojo because of a maternal care for him out of belief he was suffering low self esteem from being in the shadow of Gast. Come DOC, we find out its instead because of the fact that she caused the death of Vincent's father and ran away to Hojo when confronted by it because she didn't want to maturely work things out. Problem was with this explanation that Grimoire Valentine felt like a plot device for really tacked on angst than an actual character. It also showed that Lucrecia instead of acting like an adult runs away from her problems instead of facing them.

Most of all in the game it really show cases how selfish she could be and how her actions have hurt everybody she knows. First Grimoire is killed because she was messing around with Chaos, then Vincent is shot by Hojo when he comes to confront him about her safety, she then experiments on Vincent which does save his life but at the cost of turning him into a host for four demons, and lets not forget how she was willing to use her son for experimentation purposes without any hesitation. Sure, she feels sorry afterwards but it still shows that she would put her scientific interest above her own child's well being. She tries to justify herself that she is doing it for the world's interest but one can see through it that she was doing it for recognition in the scientific community and the fame it could bring her.

Next although its just a minor pet peeve on my part is how DOC goes from her being all about Sephiroth to caring about how sorry she is for Vincent. I know that this was Vincent's game and I know Sephiroth needs less exposure but in the OG all she really wasn't concerned that much with Vincent and all was on her mind was the son she wasn't even allowed to hold. In fact in DOC the only time we see her distress about not being allowed to see Sephiroth is that one scene in the lab.

Finally what can annoy people is how much of a bratty person she could be. As seen when Vincent tries to look out for her and just treats his concern as being unfounded.

Bottom line is DOC tried to expand her character in order for her to be three dimensional but all it did instead was make fans sour to her.

She really sucked, I'll give you that. She made shitty decisions, went with the wrong men for science and messed things up and ruined a man's life and finally, chose to ran away by sealing herself up rather than face the music. Yep, totally unlikable.

It would have been better if they went with the original Ultimania description of what happened and put in Gast instead of the unneeded Grimoire who really doesn't do much for the story except act like a cheap excuse for wangst. Although the narrative should not have played as a some pure madonna and instead call her out on her destructive self serving actions that hurt others. In fact the only person who does criticize her on her morally questionable decisions is Hojo.

I'm replaying DoC now, but I've kinda forgotten what happens to her. Does she stay locked up in that crystal thing?

^^Yes... she does.

jazzflower92 said:

Lucrecia next to Genesis is one of most hated characters in the Final Fantasy 7 universe. The main reason comes from this game where she is portrayed as very unlikable with many noting how selfish, immature, and obnoxious she could be. The narrative tries to make us sympathize with her but it instead shows how in the heck could Vincent still be in love with her after all she put him through. In fact the way she is written is actually kind of in connection to some reasons why fans don't like Genesis

Click to expand...

Um... jazz... have you ever gotten Vincent's Limit Break? 'cause that's when the OG shows us what Lucrecia was like and I didn't find it all that different then how she was shown in DoC.

In fact before the game a lot of fans felt very sorry for her because they felt that maybe she really didn't want to go through with the experimentation and was probably coerced by Hojo to do it. However, Dirge of Cerberus squashes that notion and shows that she was 100% on board with it and even sounded indignant about Vincent actually caring for her and her own child's safety.

Click to expand...

The OG never portrayed Lucrecia as being coerced by Hojo to help him. In fact, it doesn't say much of anything about what she felt about the project until after Sephrioth was born. That's when she says the "Ever since he was born I never got to hold him, even once..." line, which is in the OG script. Anything about her not wanting to do that project until then is head-canon bordering on fanon.

I think another thing that annoys fan is the explanation why she chose Hojo. In the original Ultimanias it says she chose Hojo because of a maternal care for him out of belief he was suffering low self esteem from being in the shadow of Gast. Come DOC, we find out its instead because of the fact that she caused the death of Vincent's father and ran away to Hojo when confronted by it because she didn't want to maturely work things out. Problem was with this explanation that Grimoire Valentine felt like a plot device for really tacked on angst than an actual character. It also showed that Lucrecia instead of acting like an adult runs away from her problems instead of facing them.

Click to expand...

Wait... so characters that act in an immature way in the face of problems isn't okay in stories? Okay. I also don't see how going to Hojo because she wanted to help him excludes how she dealt with Grimoire's death. Also... there should be more scientists around then just Gast, Hojo, Lucrecia, Hollander and their lab assistants...

Most of all in the game it really show cases how selfish she could be and how her actions have hurt everybody she knows. First Grimoire is killed because she was messing around with Chaos, then Vincent is shot by Hojo when he comes to confront him about her safety, she then experiments on Vincent which does save his life but at the cost of turning him into a host for four demons, and lets not forget how she was willing to use her son for experimentation purposes without any hesitation. Sure, she feels sorry afterwards but it still shows that she would put her scientific interest above her own child's well being. She tries to justify herself that she is doing it for the world's interest but one can see through it that she was doing it for recognition in the scientific community and the fame it could bring her.

Click to expand...

Okay, seriously, what do you have against Lucrecia. Because while she is involved in all those scenarios, she doesn't have control on any of the other people involved in them. That would just marginalize them as characters. Grimoire is just as involved in the Chaos project as Lucreica was; heck, it could have been Lucreica that was killed by Chaos just as much as Grimoire. Vincent is the one who chooses to confront Hojo about the experiment; he didn't have to and from what we see in DoC Lucreica didn't want him to confront Hojo herself. Hojo is the one who stuck three of Vincent's four demons in him; Lucrecia really didn't have anything to do with that. The only thing I can really lay at Lucrecia's door as something she did wrong and wasn't only a mistake is letting Sephiroth get experimented on, and even then she realizes it was the wrong thing to do. And not just the wrong thing like Gast's "Oops! Turns out Jenova wasn't a Cetra after all" mistake, but a wrong thing that she shouldn't have done in the first place. Unfortunately, by the time she realizes all this, she can't do anything to really fix the problem herself.

Next although its just a minor pet peeve on my part is how DOC goes from her being all about Sephiroth to caring about how sorry she is for Vincent. I know that this was Vincent's game and I know Sephiroth needs less exposure but in the OG all she really wasn't concerned that much with Vincent and all was on her mind was the son she wasn't even allowed to hold. In fact in DOC the only time we see her distress about not being allowed to see Sephiroth is that one scene in the lab.

Click to expand...

As far as her whole relationship with Sephiroth goes, Lucrecia was told by Vincent in the OG that Sephiroth is dead, which is true. Sephrioth's pre-Neibelheim Incident personality and body were forever gone by that point. There isn't any way for her to meet Sephiroth so I don't see why she would bring it up. Vincent, on the other hand, is still around and it was hinted that she had something to do with Vincent's Chaos form in the OG. She's the one who has the Chaos Report that gives Vincent his last Limit Break and she also has his ultimate weapon, the Death Penalty. Yeah... she knew something about what happened to Vincent all right.

Finally what can annoy people is how much of a bratty person she could be. As seen when Vincent tries to look out for her and just treats his concern as being unfounded.

Click to expand...

If anyone was annoying and bratty in DoC it was Yuffie. I kept wondering why she was in there as much as she was as opposed to other members of AVALANCHE. The Lucrecia flash-backs at least served to flesh out more of what was happening before/during/after Sephiroth was born.

Bottom line is DOC tried to expand her character in order for her to be three dimensional but all it did instead was make fans sour to her.

Click to expand...

It worked pretty well for me although Lucreica was a blank slate up until the time she started working on the J-Project. SE could pretty much do as they wanted with her so long as it didn't go against what happened after Sephiroth was born.

I'm with jazz. Lucrecia is a terrible, terrible character. I realize that she's supposed to be, but being successful at being unlikable doesn't make me appreciate her any better. I just wanted to kick the bitch in the face every time I saw her.

The scene that clenched it was when she bitches Vincent out when he expresses concern and acts like it doesn't concern him.

She really was immature about everything in DC, whereas the original game at least gave the impression that maybe she was overly maternal with Hojo, ironically enough. When she acted like Vincent had no right to express concern for someone he cared about, I instantly hated her.

I know she was just running away from her guilt over Grimoire, but it was really grating in that scene, particularly. She deliberately hurt Vincent more to try driving him away, and simply because she couldn't stand the reminder of his father his presence brought. That's extremely selfish and immature. I will never like that bitch.

Hawkeye said:

I'm with jazz. Lucrecia is a terrible, terrible character. I realize that she's supposed to be, but being successful at being unlikable doesn't make me appreciate her any better. I just wanted to kick the bitch in the face every time I saw her.

The scene that clenched it was when she bitches Vincent out when he expresses concern and acts like it doesn't concern him.

She really was immature about everything in DC, whereas the original game at least gave the impression that maybe she was overly maternal with Hojo, ironically enough. When she acted like Vincent had no right to express concern for someone he cared about, I instantly hated her.

I know she was just running away from her guilt over Grimoire, but it was really grating in that scene, particularly. She deliberately hurt Vincent more to try driving him away, and simply because she couldn't stand the reminder of his father his presence brought. That's extremely selfish and immature. I will never like that bitch.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the way she couldn't handle being around Vincent because he reminded her of his father is really the high mark of her immaturity. Lucrecia your a grown woman suck it up and take responsibility for your actions so you don't keep hurting others. And saying sorry over and over again won't make things better because you have other people cleaning up your messes.

That's her problem she runs away instead of learning from her mistakes and growing. Now that I think about it I think her being in stasis in the crystal should be symbolic how she is frozen as a person; she has not matured with time and just sits there doing nothing to change the situation. Yes, she still feels remorse but never takes actions for fixing her blunders and needs someone else to do it for her.

In the original game she doesn't try to hurt Vincent on purpose and you could get the feeling that she was being naïve about marrying Hojo then taking part of the experiment. DC just makes her a witch about the situation and makes everything all about her without any regard how Vincent feels. What also really sets me off about her is the fact that she never did think there was something morally wrong with Hojo approving of experimenting on their own child. I mean when your ex cares more about your child's safety than your own husband then that should tell something about the person you married and how they could possible treat your offspring. It then hits me that she is willing to do anything to push Vincent away even at the cost of her own unborn child's wellbeing. That's really horrific and selfish for a mother to do.

Hawkeye said:

The scene that clenched it was when she bitches Vincent out when he expresses concern and acts like it doesn't concern him.

h.

Click to expand...

To be fair, it's not his kid, and seeing as a key role of the Turks is kidnapping people for the science labs, he doesn't really have a high moral ground here.

Clement Rage said:

To be fair, it's not his kid, and seeing as a key role of the Turks is kidnapping people for the science labs, he doesn't really have a high moral ground here.

Click to expand...

It might not be his kid but it is still Lucrecia's child which all in his opinion why he should be concerned. Even if my ex had a kid with someone else I still would be worried if they were doing something potentially harmful their child. Plus most of all he is worried about what could happen to Lucrecia if she participates in it. His fears are proven true when Lucrecia does have complications during her pregnancy which makes him go straight to Hojo in order to complain about it and then get shot & experimented for voicing his concerns.

I think why Vincent is taking the moral stand here is because there is a difference experimenting on people you don't know and doing it to your own child. He might have done some immoral stuff as a Turk but on the other hand he still would have some lines he would never cross. Plus this issue was a personal matter for him as well.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6526954/1/Parasitic

This fan fiction defiantly describes how a lot feel about her as a person.

I think you could make the argument that if you are going to experiment on children, it's better to do it to your own, rather than some stranger's, because you won't treat them as expendably (although if you could avoid it altogether, that'd be great too.

Clement Rage said:

I think you could make the argument that if you are going to experiment on children, it's better to do it to your own, rather than some stranger's, because you won't treat them as expendably (although if you could avoid it altogether, that'd be great too.

Click to expand...

If my parents did consent to experimenting on me then I would sue them for all they were worth but thank goodness my parents aren't Lucrecia and Hojo because I would need a lot of therapy to deal with the fact my parents gambled with my well being for a science project.

I do believe with Hojo he would treat his own child as expendable if Sephiroth was not up to his expectations and would probably abandoned him if he was a failure then try to start all over with another female. So, bottom line is having Hojo as your father really sucks.

I actually liked Lucrecia in the OG. I was intrigued by her as a character who had this unique connection to both Sephiroth and Vincent (who at that time I saw as a truly mysterious character, given his background and the fact that he was optional).

One of DoC's may offenses is that it killed the vagueness and mystery behind her character and relationship with Vincent which made her appealing to me in the first place. The expansion of her character was so terribly handled-- her immaturity sticks out to me above all. She's a professional, a highly-educated individual, but never in the game did she behave like one. More like a whiny teenage airhead on PMS who's secretly thrilled by the shit she's gotten herself into.

Biollante said:

I actually liked Lucrecia in the OG. I was intrigued by her as a character who had this unique connection to both Sephiroth and Vincent (who at that time I saw as a truly mysterious character, given his background and the fact that he was optional).

One of DoC's may offenses is that it killed the vagueness and mystery behind her character and relationship with Vincent which made her appealing to me in the first place. The expansion of her character was so terribly handled-- her immaturity sticks out to me above all. She's a professional, a highly-educated individual, but never in the game did she behave like one. More like a whiny teenage airhead on PMS who's secretly thrilled by the shit she's gotten herself into.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Square really did a number on Lucrecia's character which has made her into a scrappy. I keep saying if they wanted to expand her character then they should looked up their own Ultimanias and go from there. I mean the Ultimanias showed that she chose Hojo because of some misplaced maternal concern and the fact that she was Gast's assistant should have factored into DOC. But no they had to go for some cheap wangsty backstory that really wasn't needed and killed her as a likable character.

I'm really disappointed by the way she was handled too. I expected something better or an improvement and what I got is some dogshit hogwash reminiscent of soap operas back in our homeland (Biollante you relate to this I hope). There are alot of things that even we can improve on how badly she was done in DoC to make her actually likable and empathize with her alot better than this dogshit I saw years back.

Why should she be likable? DirgeThe Compilation has definitely failed big time in excluding Gast from everything. But everyone's obsession with the fact that "THERE'S JUST NO WAY LUCRECIA COULD HAVE PICKED HOJO OVER POOR, PWETTY WITTLE VINCENT!" has always bugged me. "There just MUST have been something fishy going on. There's no possible way she actually liked him."

Vincent was some young, lovesick bodyguard. Hojo was very successful in the field she was interested in and was the heir apparent to Shinra Research and all it's resources. Not only that, he had a viable plan to create a living Cetra with all their abilities - not the least of which was to find the fabled Promised Land. Why shouldn't that be attractive to a scientist?

ForceStealer said:

Why should she be likable? DirgeThe Compilation has definitely failed big time in excluding Gast from everything. But everyone's obsession with the fact that "THERE'S JUST NO WAY LUCRECIA COULD HAVE PICKED HOJO OVER POOR, PWETTY WITTLE VINCENT!" has always bugged me. "There just MUST have been something fishy going on. There's no possible way she actually liked him."

Vincent was some young, lovesick bodyguard. Hojo was very successful in the field she was interested in and was the heir apparent to Shinra Research and all it's resources. Not only that, he had a viable plan to create a living Cetra with all their abilities - not the least of which was to find the fabled Promised Land. Why shouldn't that be attractive to a scientist?

Click to expand...

Heck, what you just said would be a better explanation why she chose Hojo over Vincent. I mean it would have fit her character better in the original game and actually would be less soap opery. Lucrecia was ambitious and would take whatever opportunity that landed in front of her in order to get recognized in the science community even if that meant becoming Hojo's wife.

The Grimoire explanation wasn't needed and was really over the top. In fact her causing Grimoire's death is part of the reason she is unsympathetic in many fans' eyes because she lets ambitions cloud her judgment which gets people hurt or ruins their lives in the long run. Plus all her misdeeds just show you she always keeps making mistakes and never learning not to be so rash. Even if she is remorseful, Lucrecia still at her core doesn't learn anything at all and just makes things worse.

One things about the narrative of the game is that it always tries to annoyingly make Lucrecia out to be some misguided saint when she should be more harshly criticized. At the end of the game Vincent even thanks her for being the reason why he survives when one could argue she is the reason for all the bad things in his life. I think its the why the developers retconned Lucrecia to be in the mako crystal in order to make her look like some guiltless madonna which is probably what Vincent foolishly sees her as.

jazzflower92 said:

One things about the narrative of the game is that it always tries to annoyingly make Lucrecia out to be some misguided saint when she should be more harshly criticized.

Click to expand...

Could you please show me a place in the Compilation that does this? 'cause I've yet to see where the Compilation portrays Lucrecia as a saint...

At the end of the game Vincent even thanks her for being the reason why he survives when one could argue she is the reason for all the bad things in his life.

Click to expand...

This is Vincent's character's interpretation of her, not ours. And Hojo is the main reason why Vincent's life got messed up...

I think its the why the developers retconned Lucrecia to be in the mako crystal in order to make her look like some guiltless madonna which is probably what Vincent foolishly sees her as.

Click to expand...

Uh... Lucrecia starts out in the mako crystal in the OG...

Obsidian Fire said:

Lucrecia starts out in the mako crystal in the OG...

Click to expand...

Technically we never see her inside a mako crystal. We see her in front of the odd shell-like structure, but neither the area or Lucrecia's placement there is similar to what is depicted in DoC.

And that reminds me in the OG game she was supposed to be deformed by the side effects of the experiment but as seen in DOC she is normal looking.

Yeah, I remember wtf-ing at the changes to the cave when the first footage of DC rolled out. A lot of people did, as I recall.

ForceStealer said:

Why should she be likable? DirgeThe Compilation has definitely failed big time in excluding Gast from everything. But everyone's obsession with the fact that "THERE'S JUST NO WAY LUCRECIA COULD HAVE PICKED HOJO OVER POOR, PWETTY WITTLE VINCENT!" has always bugged me. "There just MUST have been something fishy going on. There's no possible way she actually liked him."

Vincent was some young, lovesick bodyguard. Hojo was very successful in the field she was interested in and was the heir apparent to Shinra Research and all it's resources. Not only that, he had a viable plan to create a living Cetra with all their abilities - not the least of which was to find the fabled Promised Land. Why shouldn't that be attractive to a scientist?

Click to expand...

Has anyone in this thread expressed an issue with her choosing Hojo over Vincent? I get the impression everyone is bothered more with the why of it -- both the change from the original game and because of the stupid, angsty shit with Daddy "I'm Irrelevant" Valentine. The original explanation was actually pretty interesting.

Hawkeye said:

Yeah, I remember wtf-ing at the changes to the cave when the first footage of DC rolled out. A lot of people did, as I recall.



Has anyone in this thread expressed an issue with her choosing Hojo over Vincent? I get the impression everyone is bothered more with the why of it -- both the change from the original game and because of the stupid, angsty shit with Daddy "I'm Irrelevant" Valentine. The original explanation was actually pretty interesting.

Click to expand...

Yeah, they dropped the original intriguing explanation for some water down melodramatic backstory that really robs Lucrecia of all her aspects that made her more sympathetic or interesting in the original game. If they stuck with the original reasoning for choosing Hojo then her ambition would have just been a flaw of hers instead of an despised trait that gets people hurt by her actions.

Heck, maybe putting Gast in DOC would have shown this really ambitious side of her that wanted her to succeed in the field of science. Plus maybe also showing a really naïve part of her could have given more reason why she saw Hojo in need of maternal care.

Anything would have been much deeper than the stuff we got in DOC. I know she was told Sephiroth was dead in the original game but I still think she would be more worried about her presumed to be deceased son than Vincent. In the OG she was always tortured by the fact that she never was allowed to see her son or hold him when he was born. Suddenly she is changed to being sorry about how she royally messed up Vincent's life without even a peep about the son that she willingly experimented on for her own selfish purposes.

Dragonite said:

I'm really disappointed by the way she was handled too. I expected something better or an improvement and what I got is some dogshit hogwash reminiscent of soap operas back in our homeland (Biollante you relate to this I hope).

Click to expand...

Yes I can-- and
Anyway, as what has been said, it wasn't Lucrecia choosing Hojo over Vinny, nor deciding to experiment on her child that soured me to her. It was her story and character expansion (or should I say, the story of DoC as a whole) that was a wasted opportunity for what I thought was an intriguing storyline.

Heck, if only she was shown to be a mature woman who stood by her ugly decisions firmly AND professionally, without exasperating, overly emotional dialogue, then her emotional breakdown when she was finally remorseful would have reflected how much it damaged her more effectively, and might have won her sympathy from fans.

DoC's presentation was the reverse-- there was constant angst and tension. The way she acted and spoke teasingly to Vincent, it had no trace of professionalism, when in fact they were both working at that time. By the time she was expressing her regret, it had no impact on me because I already lost sympathy for her and was just put off by her constant annoying attitude (and voice).

Yeah, for a scientist in professional environments with her career and other peoples' money constantly on the line, she came off as someone whose head was never really in the game and whose emotions were always in overdrive.

Incidentally her immaturity made people less sorry for her when she suffered the consequences of allowing her son to be experimented. That's still very messed up for a mother to do. In the original game you could see her in the flashback hanging her head as Hojo mentions them doing the experiment hinting at the fact that she is having doubts about it. They could have portrayed as trying to act all professional about the experimenting until her conscience over time kicked in and suddenly she has grown to see her son more than a science project.

In DOC she of course comes off as more callous than from the original game and has less qualms about putting her child at risk. I kind of find it frightening that she is not concerned that her own husband doesn't seem to care what could happen to their unborn son because of this. She goes from being a misguided person to being a stubborn, witch who doesn't know when to quit.

Did DoC ever say she chose Hojo because of what happened to Grimoire? That was just why she was uncomfortable around Vincent and why she tried so hard to save his life after Hojo shot him. It didn't seem to conflict with my idea about why she went for Hojo.

jazzflower said:

In DOC she of course comes off as more callous than from the original game and has less qualms about putting her child at risk. I kind of find it frightening that she is not concerned that her own husband doesn't seem to care what could happen to their unborn son because of this. She goes from being a misguided person to being a stubborn, witch who doesn't know when to quit.

Click to expand...

I don't see how you're getting this. The original game never portrayed her as having qualms about putting her child at risk. In fact, at no point does she ever even express remorse for what she did. She merely regrets the fact that she never got to hold him.


I mostly just disliked that DoC completely glossed over the entire climax of her character arc - attempting to commit suicide because she was forbidden to see her son (and potentially other things), and being unable to do so because of Jenova. I mean, that sounds dramatic just in a sentence, it wouldn't take much to make that work. And it's mentioned so subtly that only FF7 dorks like myself even picked up on it. Why? They were so intent on making her angsty, and skipped over the angst-iest thing she ever did?

And you are correct jazz, that Lucrecia was supposedly malformed by her Jenova cells, but in fairness, her FF7 model looked as normal as everyone else, and really Hojo was the only who went all Akira after being injected with Jenova cells. So I'll give DC a pass on that one. But, I admit that her looking pretty in the flashbacks and a big puss-y mess in the present in that crystal would've been pretty cool.