Did Hojo actually love Sephiroth?

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
In my opinion the answer would be no but there are some who believe he loved Sephiroth in his own twisted way. Most who think Hojo actually loved his son points to the fact that he at the end of the game tried to help Sephiroth destroy the world. Or say that he didn't know how to properly show his love and came off as apathetic. And even try to say that Hojo was hiding his emotions when his son supposedly died at the reactor. Others take note of the fact that he was the one who made the Silver Elite fan club.

Like said these are just things people justify the viewpoint. In my honest opinion the only way I could actually see Hojo ever loving Sephiroth is as a successful experiment rather than a son and that isn't a positive thing.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion

Yeah, I figured that out too because of the fact that in my opinion Hojo only is interested in things that are successful and furthers his interest in those things to get more results. There is a pretty good chance if Sephiroth wasn't a success then he would have abandon him and try to either clone his son or conceive another child that would give better outcomes.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
He doesn't love anything, he's a sociopath. Maybe himself? But I don't even know if he'd bother with that.

Yeah, his only real true love is science all the rest of the universe comes last. Heck, in the Ultimanias they said that Hojo only saw Sephiroth as research he wished to bloom. So, Hojo just sees Sephiroth as a long term science project and is willing to do anything so his precious specimen can keep breaking barriers.

But I still find it interesting that he would have set up a fan club for Sephiroth. Then again Hojo would a person to want to have his greatest experiment be revered by many.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
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Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Nope. I think he has a weird pride in his creation though.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Funny thing is that I kind of compare Hojo's obsession with Sephiroth to Mother Gothel's love for Rapunzel. In a sense they only see their children as something to satisfy themselves and would have no use for them if they were not special. Mother Gothel only wants Rapunzel for her hair so she can be kept youthful while Hojo only is interested in Sephiroth for scientific research.
 

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
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Glaurung

Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
AKA
Mama Dragon
Sephiroth was Hojo's personal trophy, the culmination of years of work (and backstabbing and front-shooting :awesome: ). Hojo could never love any other living creature because he was a textbook mad scientist, always seeing anything else as research lab material and Seph was no different.

So, never as a human being, but yes as a personal achievement.




EDIT: Guys, if you really see that this has done before, redirect her to the original thread and request mods to close this one. Personally, I can't remember if I saw a discussion like this before, but I've been absent a lot of time.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
The answer is just too obvious I don't know why anyone would say otherwise.

I know the answer is obvious but there are a few fans on the internet that think otherwise. Another thing I heard people say is that Hojo just wanted to make his son special and stronger than the rest of humanity. Yes, they will come up with anything to prove that Hojo deep down loved his son.

This just makes me surprised that anyone would be sympathetic to this guy at all.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
The reactor scene Hojo was more intrigued how a weak grunt could defeat his all powerful perfect specimen. I am sure he was upset that he could no longer watch his specimen from afar. But he did have the reunion theory and I'm sure believed Sephiroth would one day return.

The silver elite club was not made out of love far from it, he just wanted to show off to the world how great his work was and how Hollander's was nothing in comparison.

As for the last scene in the OG of Hojo. All his work and effort was to proove that he had created something far more powerful and brilliant than anyone could. He was only helping Sephiroth so then he would be happy that his creation had succeeded and not failed.

In BC we see Hojo willing to leave ShinRa he is intrigued by different things easily. But when he saw Sephiroth take down the helicopter down with one swing that intrigued him enough to return.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
The reactor scene Hojo was more intrigued how a weak grunt could defeat his all powerful perfect specimen. I am sure he was upset that he could no longer watch his specimen from afar. But he did have the reunion theory and I'm sure believed Sephiroth would one day return.

The silver elite club was not made out of love far from it, he just wanted to show off to the world how great his work was and how Hollander's was nothing in comparison.

As for the last scene in the OG of Hojo. All his work and effort was to proove that he had created something far more powerful and brilliant than anyone could. He was only helping Sephiroth so then he would be happy that his creation had succeeded and not failed.

In BC we see Hojo willing to leave ShinRa he is intrigued by different things easily. But when he saw Sephiroth take down the helicopter down with one swing that intrigued him enough to return.

There you have it Hojo is the mad scientist version of a stage dad who lives his desires through his kid.

Some even hilariously believe that Hojo was helping his son out of guilt because of a misinterpretation about the scene with him at the end of the game. Some erroneously think he said he hated himself for his actions but the truth is Hojo said he hated that he overlooked Cloud as an experiment subject. Or even more mind numbing some think he was doing it because Sephiroth was his son and not to see his years of research come to blossom.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Hojo didn't care about Sephiroth at all. All his actions regarding Sephiroth was just watching over him in observation of a scientist not a caring father. And he only ever helped him because he wanted to prove to everyone again that his creation was perfect with no flaws.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hojo didn't care about Sephiroth at all. All his actions regarding Sephiroth was just watching over him in observation of a scientist not a caring father. And he only ever helped him because he wanted to prove to everyone again that his creation was perfect with no flaws.

Yeah, Hojo treats the fact that he is Sephiroth's father like just an non-noteworthy detail. He probably would not have become a father at all if there wasn't anything of scientific value involved.
 

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
I personally believe that there was a mixture of fathery love as well as scientist fascination. Does it really have to be either or?

An earlier poster mentioned that Hojo would not have been a father if it weren't for this experiment. Well, he could have used any old fetus for this experiment. He chose his own because he might have thought that giving his child the powers of the ancients to be the best thing for it. There was no elaborate scheme of any kind at the beginning, because the guy honest to god did not know that Jenova was a parasitic monster alien. Proof? In crisis core, Hojo tells Zack that Genesis had been a memento from an "unenlightened era, when men could deem any unclassified life form an ancient."

Reasons why I think Hojo cared about Sephiroth: he helps him out and says that the only reason is because his son is in need of power and help. He mentions that Sephiroth looks down on him, so it obviously bothered him. He never mentioned how others looked down on him and hated him, only that Sephiroth did. Also, in before crisis, Hojo says that he has no intention of leaving Shinra just yet, because Shinra is the only place for Sephiroth. (Chapter 10) And in crisis core, he was supposedly the founder of the silver elite, the Sephiroth fan club. That club had personal things, frivolous things about Sephiroth that were unrelated to his value as a specimen. The club knew that Sephiroth was left handed, what he named his attack and weapon, what he washed his hair with, that he hung out with his friends in the soldier training room, exclusive photos, etc. and right when Zack escapes from Nibelheim five years later, another letter pops up from "chairwoman H" saying "sephiroth will never die! As long as I live so will he!" and other things about Sephiroth living on in their minds and having a plan of some kind. So, the Jenova reunion theory was just a plan to be reunited with his beloved son, AND to test it out. In Hojo's missions in CC, he mentions that things would have been far more interesting had he arrived at Nibelheim a bit sooner.

All in all, I think there was something but at the end of the day, it still doesn't change the fact that Sephiroth is still an intriguing specimen and Hojo is still a scientist. After all, did he ever aid Red and Aerith? No. Did he make clubs for them? No. Did Sephiroth get to have a life of some kind and did not even know that he was a specimen. The fan club was just evidence that Hojo paid attention to Sephiroth on matters outside of scientific observation. Why do that? Someone earlier mentioned that Hojo was trying to compete with Angeal and Genesises clubs to beat Hollander. But while it was implied that Hojo was behind Sephiroth's fanclub, it was not implied that Hollander was behind Angeal's. in fact, Hollander might have been even colder and less loving towards his son Angeal since he left Angeal in Banora as a child and he was raised by his mom and step dad (who gave him the buster sword). At least Hojo was there for Sephiroth, watching over him from a distance. But then again, Sephiroth was a greater success, had no mother, and Hojo also did sort of pay attention to Aerith's whereabouts, but it was mostly Shinra who wanted her because he wanted to find the promised land so he could create his Neo Midgar.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hojo only cares about Sephiroth in terms of an object of science rather than a person. Also about Hojo mentioning Sephiroth looking down on him; I think its probably more about him being devalued as a scientist rather than a son. Also in the Ultimanias itself it says that Hojo only saw Lucrecia and Sephiroth as things to be used for science. Also if he really was concerned to be with his "beloved son" then why in DOC did he never mention Sephiroth. He seemed more interested in fusing with Omega for scientific purposes. In fact whenever he mentions Sephiroth its often in terms of science or he notices any progress with him. That's not a sign of a loving parent that is more of a sign of someone who sees their child as an object to lord over the world for their own means.

Also just because he was in his life doesn't mean it would be good. By the way Sephiroth holds Hojo in contempt and when the Genesis clones attacked and he mentions just to not worry about Hojo, I have a huge feeling that Hojo didn't leave a good impression on Sephiroth with justified reason.
 

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
Hojo only cares about Sephiroth in terms of an object of science rather than a person. Also about Hojo mentioning Sephiroth looking down on him; I think its probably more about him being devalued as a scientist rather than a son. Also in the Ultimanias itself it says that Hojo only saw Lucrecia and Sephiroth as things to be used for science. Also if he really was concerned to be with his "beloved son" then why in DOC did he never mention Sephiroth. He seemed more interested in fusing with Omega for scientific purposes. In fact whenever he mentions Sephiroth its often in terms of science or he notices any progress with him. That's not a sign of a loving parent that is more of a sign of someone who sees their child as an object to lord over the world for their own means.

Also just because he was in his life doesn't mean it would be good. By the way Sephiroth holds Hojo in contempt and when the Genesis clones attacked and he mentions just to not worry about Hojo, I have a huge feeling that Hojo didn't leave a good impression on Sephiroth with justified reason.

Well, Dirge of Cerberus was not even in the minds of the people who wrote Final Fantasy VII. After all, it does not make sense because wasn't there some time between the Hojo battle and meteorfall? How did Hojo even survive, then? Not to mention he was portrayed as an old guy instead of a young man, as he was in Final Fantasy VII. That is impossible, because if he had been that old in the flashbacks some twenty five years ago, he would have been withered away by Final Fantasy VII. How can one look exactly the same for thirty years? DoC was a crap game, anyway. The plot was dumb, and I always figured that Square only made that game in order to show off their new graphics, give some attention to other characters (like Vincent, Hojo, Lucrecia but oddly enough not Ifalna or Gast) and to rake in some extra cash after Advent Children, while people were still in the FF7 mood. BY the way, the people who made DoC did not make FFVII.

Hojo did not seem at all concerned that two of his other special specimens, Red XIII and Aerith, did not like him. Only that Sephiroth did not like him. Now, If Sephiroth had not been Hojo's son but some random child used for the Jenova Project, would Hojo have helped him, created a fan club (for the purpose of stalking him regarding non-scientific things like his shampoo and friend hang out sessions)? I'm guessing not. And yeah, Sephiroth hates him but that doesn't mean that Hojo hates Sephiroth. Hojo obviously did not want closeness or attachments and was probably a jerk to keep people away, or just for fun. Who knows. But if he wanted to help Sephiroth and pays attention to personal things about him, that surely has to show some kind of affection. Perhaps he wanted some kind of closeness but was terrified of it so he destroys the world out of hate and jealousy of other peoples happiness. After all he had no friends and no family, was a loner and looked depressed in the artwork depictions of him. He was not intended to come across as a happy guy. Just a miserable old crazy goat who was desperate to do something big and catastrophic just to be noticed and given attention because he was hated, ignored, and looked down on by everyone.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Well, Dirge of Cerberus was not even in the minds of the people who wrote Final Fantasy VII. After all, it does not make sense because wasn't there some time between the Hojo battle and meteorfall? How did Hojo even survive, then? Not to mention he was portrayed as an old guy instead of a young man, as he was in Final Fantasy VII. That is impossible, because if he had been that old in the flashbacks some twenty five years ago, he would have been withered away by Final Fantasy VII. How can one look exactly the same for thirty years? DoC was a crap game, anyway. The plot was dumb, and I always figured that Square only made that game in order to show off their new graphics, give some attention to other characters (like Vincent, Hojo, Lucrecia but oddly enough not Ifalna or Gast) and to rake in some extra cash after Advent Children, while people were still in the FF7 mood. BY the way, the people who made DoC did not make FFVII.

Hojo did not seem at all concerned that two of his other special specimens, Red XIII and Aerith, did not like him. Only that Sephiroth did not like him. Now, If Sephiroth had not been Hojo's son but some random child used for the Jenova Project, would Hojo have helped him, created a fan club (for the purpose of stalking him regarding non-scientific things like his shampoo and friend hang out sessions)? I'm guessing not. And yeah, Sephiroth hates him but that doesn't mean that Hojo hates Sephiroth. Hojo obviously did not want closeness or attachments and was probably a jerk to keep people away, or just for fun. Who knows. But if he wanted to help Sephiroth and pays attention to personal things about him, that surely has to show some kind of affection. Perhaps he wanted some kind of closeness but was terrified of it so he destroys the world out of hate and jealousy of other peoples happiness. After all he had no friends and no family, was a loner and looked depressed in the artwork depictions of him. He was not intended to come across as a happy guy. Just a miserable old crazy goat who was desperate to do something big and catastrophic just to be noticed and given attention because he was hated, ignored, and looked down on by everyone.

Nah, he just loves making the whole world a target for his next experiment. When one views their own son as a experiment and manipulates parts of their life without knowing then its obvious that person lacks tons of empathy. Also stalking him is just so he can fuel the fan club. And a parent that does that is violating their child's privacy just so they can show off their child like a trophy. In full context there is nothing heartwarming about a father who does that. Parents who live their glory through their children are some of the worst people on this planet.
 

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
Nah, he just loves making the whole world a target for his next experiment. When one views their own son as a experiment and manipulates parts of their life without knowing then its obvious that person lacks tons of empathy. Also stalking him is just so he can fuel the fan club. And a parent that does that is violating their child's privacy just so they can show off their child like a trophy. In full context there is nothing heartwarming about a father who does that. Parents who live their glory through their children are some of the worst people on this planet.

True, but Sephiroth did not know that he was an experiment. Unlike Ifalna, Red, and Aerith. Sephiroth was allowed to roam free and do his own thing to an extent. Otherwise, why did he react so badly to find out that he was an experiment? Because he went his entire life not knowing it. Maybe Hojo did this to study him and observe how this human with alien cells goes about life on it's own and in it's own natural habitat, lol. As for the fan club, good point there. I suppose that maybe Hojo was just living his dreams through Sephiroth. He might have felt like he had a connection to Sephiroth, and whatever Sephiroth accomplished and whatever he was was a reflection of himself. That is still selfish, though. I once watched a TV show called Toddlers and Tiaras, and these pageant moms would take pictures of their little princesses and post them all over the house, basically worshiping these little girls. Now, that is narcissistic mainly on the parent's part, not the child's. One of the mom's even once mentioned how she was put on this Earth to serve her daughter. My mom and I looked at each other and laughed and my mom said to me "I don't think so" (referring to being that way with me, lol). However, why would Hojo want to show off Sephiroth's bathing habits and hang outs with friends? That's not related to science or to his power or hero status. At all. Since when did Hojo pay attention to his other specimens like that? He didn't. Unless he likes knowing personal things about Sephiroth much like celebrities have fans who want to know about their personal lives. Why? I never understood why. Maybe because people like the idea of seeing vulnerability, normalness, and humanity in those who are great or famous? Although this is different, because Hojo is Sephiroth's father. I don't think fathers generally go that far. I've seen movies about sports dads who make their sons play football but then the son really wants to be an artist or some shit. The dad doesn't really care about the son, but in the movies he always gives in and lets the son do what he wants to do. I wonder if Hojo would have been that way.

But do those sports dads or pageant moms stalk their children? I don't know. But Hojo was not close to Sephiroth, so the only way to monitor him and know what he is up to is to stalk him in private. He could not do so openly and he always seemed to try to hide the fact that he could have paternal affection for Sephiroth. For example, on the Sister Ray Cloud mentioned that Hojo was doing what he was doing to atone for what he did to Sephiroth, and Hojo paused and told him that he was wrong, that it was his desire as a scientist. Now why not just upfront say "I am going to help Sephiroth to see what happens" or to see the results of his experiment blossom, but instead he says that the only reason is because his son needs help.

I am guessing that he stalked Sephiroth because he would not know about him any other way. They were not close. Hojo might have just claimed to be observing him for scientific purposes but he could have been watching him constantly as a way for also looking out for him and molding his development. Sephiroth might have turned psycho but before that he was a great successful person overall. Any parent would have been proud to be a parent to a rich, successful overachiever good looking warrior or whatever he was.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
True, but Sephiroth did not know that he was an experiment. Unlike Ifalna, Red, and Aerith. Sephiroth was allowed to roam free and do his own thing to an extent. Otherwise, why did he react so badly to find out that he was an experiment? Because he went his entire life not knowing it. Maybe Hojo did this to study him and observe how this human with alien cells goes about life on it's own and in it's own natural habitat, lol. As for the fan club, good point there. I suppose that maybe Hojo was just living his dreams through Sephiroth. He might have felt like he had a connection to Sephiroth, and whatever Sephiroth accomplished and whatever he was was a reflection of himself. That is still selfish, though. I once watched a TV show called Toddlers and Tiaras, and these pageant moms would take pictures of their little princesses and post them all over the house, basically worshiping these little girls. Now, that is narcissistic mainly on the parent's part, not the child's. One of the mom's even once mentioned how she was put on this Earth to serve her daughter. My mom and I looked at each other and laughed and my mom said to me "I don't think so" (referring to being that way with me, lol). However, why would Hojo want to show off Sephiroth's bathing habits and hang outs with friends? That's not related to science or to his power or hero status. At all. Since when did Hojo pay attention to his other specimens like that? He didn't. Unless he likes knowing personal things about Sephiroth much like celebrities have fans who want to know about their personal lives. Why? I never understood why. Maybe because people like the idea of seeing vulnerability, normalness, and humanity in those who are great or famous? Although this is different, because Hojo is Sephiroth's father. I don't think fathers generally go that far. I've seen movies about sports dads who make their sons play football but then the son really wants to be an artist or some shit. The dad doesn't really care about the son, but in the movies he always gives in and lets the son do what he wants to do. I wonder if Hojo would have been that way.

But do those sports dads or pageant moms stalk their children? I don't know. But Hojo was not close to Sephiroth, so the only way to monitor him and know what he is up to is to stalk him in private. He could not do so openly and he always seemed to try to hide the fact that he could have paternal affection for Sephiroth. For example, on the Sister Ray Cloud mentioned that Hojo was doing what he was doing to atone for what he did to Sephiroth, and Hojo paused and told him that he was wrong, that it was his desire as a scientist. Now why not just upfront say "I am going to help Sephiroth to see what happens" or to see the results of his experiment blossom, but instead he says that the only reason is because his son needs help.

I am guessing that he stalked Sephiroth because he would not know about him any other way. They were not close. Hojo might have just claimed to be observing him for scientific purposes but he could have been watching him constantly as a way for also looking out for him and molding his development. Sephiroth might have turned psycho but before that he was a great successful person overall. Any parent would have been proud to be a parent to a rich, successful overachiever good looking warrior or whatever he was.

I think some of the arguments you are making for Hojo actually caring for Sephiroth is similar to the ones made by those who believe Mother Gothel loved Rapunzel as a daughter. Also him mentioning his son needs help comes before he says he is doing it all to see his experiment blossom. If he was a good parent then why did he lie to his own son about who his mother was and prevented Lucrecia from ever seeing him. Although its never fully shown how Sephiroth's childhood was in some older Ulitmanias before the retcons of the Compilation there was some notes saying that Shinra actually did some tests on him to show how Jenova's cells reacted with mako.
 

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
I think some of the arguments you are making for Hojo actually caring for Sephiroth is similar to the ones made by those who believe Mother Gothel loved Rapunzel as a daughter. Also him mentioning his son needs help comes before he says he is doing it all to see his experiment blossom. If he was a good parent then why did he lie to his own son about who his mother was and prevented Lucrecia from ever seeing him. Although its never fully shown how Sephiroth's childhood was in some older Ulitmanias before the retcons of the Compilation there was some notes saying that Shinra actually did some tests on him to show how Jenova's cells reacted with mako.

Gothel was not Repunzels biological mother. Gothel fed her well, gave her paints and did spoil her, but who is to say she didn't develop some kind of fondness or attachment to her. And Hojo got no glory for being Sephiroth's father because he kept it a secret because he obviously had intimacy issues and was incapable of human closeness. As for tests, I bet Shinra did. Just because Hojo was a scientist and experimented on him does not mean that he didn't care about him. He just could not say it or show it or do anything about it, really.
 
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