Boss difficulty and narrative

I was just wondering... What makes a good bossfight for you? Difficulty does a lot for me, I want that super powerful entity to live up to his intro cutscene. I remember being pretty impressed with the first bosses in Devil May Cry, because they were hard to kill. Phantom killed me a bunch, but then Arius was no trouble at all in the sequel (beat him on my first try without much effort, his secretary is actually more dangerous than he is) But then playing Bayonetta, I had to actually lower the difficulty setting to finish the game, but I still didn't get the same sense of connection as the others. Had similar trouble with the Batman games (I don't want to fight forty lackeys, I want to fight the actual villains I know and I want them to be tough).

Being beaten down hard on a first meeting is important to the sense of achievement that comes from finishing a game and how seriously I take thevillain's story, I remember really hoping that I'd lose the first encounter with the final boss of no more heroes because of the cutscene before it. So I was ,wondering what makes a good bossfight for you? Music? Story? Difficulty? Giant monsters? Loot?

Hm. For me, it's a mixture of things. It depends on the type of game, too, I suppose. In an RPG, a satisfying boss fight for me is generally one that requires thought and planning in order to win. I don't want my victory to just be handed to me, especially if it's the end game boss, the thing and/or person that I've spent the entire game learning about/chasing down. "Difficult" to me does not necessarily mean "takes forever to defeat", because if that were the case, you could just throw a boss with a gazillion HP at me and think that just because it takes me an hour to chip away at his health, I'll be satisfied. Quite the opposite. Especially if the boss isn't really a threat to me. I'll just get bored. I want to have to pay attention every second of the fight to make sure that I don't die. Not through cheap tricks, though...that's just frustrating.

So yes, difficulty helps make a good boss battle. Music also helps, for sure. Something that sets me on edge, gets me itching for action. I love a lot of the boss battle themes in FF games because they mostly do a great job at matching the tone of the battle.


Getting good loot doesn't hurt, either

AvecAloes said:

"Difficult" to me does not necessarily mean "takes forever to defeat", because if that were the case, you could just throw a boss with a gazillion HP at me and think that just because it takes me an hour to chip away at his health, I'll be satisfied. Quite the opposite. Especially if the boss isn't really a threat to me. I'll just get bored. I want to have to pay attention every second of the fight to make sure that I don't die.

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Agreed. But just as a point of note, just because a boss with a gajillion HP DOES pose a threat to me, does not mean I will not get bored. Giving enemies tons of HP is a crutch. If a boss requires strategy and is dangerous, that's good enough. If I've proven I know how to deal with it, I shouldn't have to keep proving it for the next 1-2 hours. Such as, oh, Persona 3's final boss or FFXII's Yiazmat, or every boss in Xenosaga 3.

Force said:

If I've proven I know how to deal with it, I shouldn't have to keep proving it for the next 1-2 hours.

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Exactly. There is simply no fun in that.

Boss fights in which you have to utilize a lot of planning/technique and timing are "fun-hard." Overly long boss fights in which the difficulty is almost entirely gauged by monstrous HP (ie Hollander, who was tedious for that fact and also the fact that he didn't pose a threat) and luck-based victory are "annoying-hard."

^This is pretty much my view on the matter. The more dynamic a boss the better. I suppose there is a "just right" level of dynamism though =p. If a boss has a million moves it dishes out randomly, I'm not sure I'd find that entertaining.

The God of War series' boss fights are my kind of boss fights. They're just perfect; for me at least.

They contain a mix of:
1) Puzzle-Solving (eg: how the hell do I stop him from regenerating his health?)
2) Button-Mashing (you attack its weak point for massive damage. lol.)
3) Quicktime Events (Story-driven, cinematic, bad-assery)
4) Epic music.

Difficulty, although important, is secondary for me. As long as developers follow this, I'm happy:



The perfect example of this in action, would be the final boss fight against Zeus in GoW3. So perfect. So effin' perfect.

Oh wank, I still have to play through GoW 3, . And 2 for that matter.

I don't like boss fights based on speed of reaction because my reaction time is slow and always will be.

One of the most difficult bosses I've fought was alt-Caius in XIII-2. Serah alone with maxed stats against Caius is reallyfuckinghard. I remember the first time I did it I had to just wound him to death and it took a really long time. There are riskier ways to win faster, but even with max stats I died a lot. That was a fun challenge.

Interesting topic. I think that boss battles in the Final Fantasy series have become far too easy, which is disappointing, as I think getting a few Game Overs is an important part of the experience.

As anyone who has followed me doing a community playthrough knows, I like a challenge. Difficulty really is the number one factor in defining a good boss battle. The appearance of the boss can help to make it feel epic, but it can also backfire if something that looks impressive can be taken down in a few hits. Music can make it more enjoyable, but only if there is time to listen to it for long enough. And good loot should be earned.

I agree with Avec that a good boss doesn't need to have a ridiculous amount of HP. I'll usually forgive it in the case of a game's final battle, like Ultimecia, but otherwise it can just make it boring.

This thread has inspired me to make a new one. Look out for it shortly.

luck-based victory

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This. I'm not interested in fighting the boss if I can only win if certain conditions randomly are met (such as a boss deciding not to do certain things, etc.). Now if those random things happening would just make it harder, that's fine, but if I go down in a one-shot hit because of some seriously strange luck, I stop bothering.

Presentation has a lot to do with whether I find a boss battle entertaining--if I truly care about winning to progress in the game or save the skin of my characters that makes the whole thing more enjoyable. And challenge, to me, should be about the necessity of a careful study of the boss, planning beforehand and a proper execution of said plan. It's no fun if I'm slaughtered repeatedly and then could find some little trinket to make it all a breeze.

^I think I agree with the presentation idea as well. The more ways I'm engaged in the battle, the better (eg: emotionally).

I think bosses that require a specific strategy to beat (eg: trinket) is also pretty lame.

ForceStealer said:

If I've proven I know how to deal with it, I shouldn't have to keep proving it for the next 1-2 hours. Such as, oh, Persona 3's final boss or FFXII's Yiazmat, or every boss in Xenosaga 3.

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Generally I prefer fights like Omega Mark XII (fast and short) over Yiazmat (loooooong), but the Yiazmat fight, if you do it in one take, introduces a new element to the boss fight: Perseverance. The average player spends about 2-6 hours beating Yiazmat. I think it took me 3 or 4 hours, and by the end of those hours, you're really starting to lose focus, and the chance you'll mess up increases. You can also easily start to panic because you don't really want to do that shit all over again, so you need to stay focused on the task, and not the goal. When I did the fight on my second time I told myself NEVER EVER AGAIN. But I'm glad I did the fight. Dull as it is, it does something to you other boss fights won't.

My list:

• I like a boss battle that is hard even if you're on a high level. AKA I also don't like battles where you will win your HP is high enough/ you're strong enough so you can just pound the enemy to death.
• I also don't like when there's one fail proof strategy, there should be room for several.
• The fight should have stages, making it harder as you go (XII is pretty good at this.) I also like it when you have to change strategies on your way - XII is pretty good at this as well (throws up paling, can't use magic, can't use attack, etc.) Generally there should be an INSANE!! mode.
• Generally I don't like the extreme high HP bosses, The battle should take you about half an hour to an hour, and no more.
• Totally agree on the epic music bit. If it has drums, even better.
• I like when bosses have that one (or several!) SHITOHMYGODFUCKNOOOOO move that can instantly wipe you out or fuck things up majorly for you. Recovering from a move like that with 2 HP is glorious and make you feel like you've really accomplished something.
• There needs to be an awesome sound/visual when you finally beat the boss. XII does this so well; that little blur/zoom in thing with the sound - it makes you feel sooo good.
• For me, to make a good boss fight, there must be elements of buffing/debuffing. Makes the whole thing more interesting to me.
• If the boss freezes you, and you can prevent this by being offensive or something else (Caius!!!) that's something I like because it rewards you for being proactive and just fight. (That Noel solo vs Caius fight in 700AF - I really like that fight.)

I can only think on this question in Pokemon terms... cause I'm me So, if you've ever tried to beat Blue or Cynthia while under-leveled... that's how a good boss should be.

I think Yahtzee said once that a good boss fight should be a cumulative test of the skills the player's learned over the course of the game beforehand. That's a pretty cool guideline. I'd prescribe to that.

I'm honestly pretty open to the idea of what a bossfight should be like. Usually the ones I really enjoy are the ones that mate pre-existing game mechanics spiced up with quirks that are specific to the character or setting. That could be any sort, from visual to an additional gameplay mechanic.

Tough bosses should require careful strategy and innovative use of a battle system. There are lots of good examples. The problem for me always lies in final bosses, because they're nearly always puzzle bosses (where you can't win in a straight fight but if you weaken the enemy by jumping through some hoops you can win easily), bosses with 6 forms/huge amounts of HP/defence (no challenge, just time consuming), bosses which are stationary etc.

Shadow of the Colossus worked because it was a piece of art. Games that emphasise a technical battle system shouldn't rely on QTEs or scripted weaknesses, and neither should bosses be invulnerable to all attacks other than scripted weaknesses.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas were fantastic games but the final bosses were pathetic. Mass Effect 1's boss was rubbish, a standard battle against what was essentially an overpowered geth enemy with two forms. You just needed to dodge the missiles and be a remotely good shot. What's the point in building up to an all powerful adversary if it's just a longer version of fights you've been practising the whole game?

Another huge problem with final bosses is their tendency to be stationary. Mass Effect 2's final battle was also underwhelming because of the fact that the only remotely challenging aspect was the simultaneous attacks of the boss and waves of collectors, which simply required good timing and a sniper rifle. Devil May Cry: final boss is the only stationary enemy in the whole game. Throughout DMC you've dodged lava spiders, pidgeot on steroids, a bloblike supergun bioweapon straight out of a Japanese rape comic, velociraptors with rocket claws and armor, cocaine-abusing chernobyl monkey people that explode when they're injured, grim reapers with 4 scythes and your ironing-board wielding doppelganger; you've mastered the art of moving faster than you consciously think and of chaining combos to rapid charge devil trigger... all so you can fight a final boss who doesn't move, has easily dodged attacks, and to top it off you're given the powers of your omnipotent army-slaying father to finish it off. AND THEN the final blow is a scripted event. Wow, what a challenge.

I understand that games with strong stories and a cinematic feel want to give the climax a more dramatic and movie-like feel, keeping the pace fast and exhilarating the player, and it's true that nobody wants to break the tension by spending 40 minutes wearing a Lu Bu style boss down whilst avoiding its limit breaks and running around looking for health while an allegedly critical and time-constrained event sits in stasis, but it cannot be that difficult to design a final boss which requires some cleverness instead of grinding, normal play for a longer period of time, stationary combat, puzzle fights (break the enemy's limbs one by one until its core is exposed FF/Bayonetta/Tomb Raider: why?) and so on.

A good final boss? Can't think of one that wasn't a case of discovering a weakness, battling for a long time attrition, battling a boss that is weaker than earlier examples, etc.

Heard that Heavenly Sword had a tough final boss but I never played it.

The problem with final bosses is that they can't be like the rest of the enemies you fight, otherwise, what's so bad about them? So they have to be different in some way. Honestly, bosses having multiple forms is almost a standard game trope now, so if the boss didn't change in some way, I'd almost feel cheated. Final Fantasy is also different as there is usually at least one optional boss that is usually harder to defeat then the final boss.

My play-style is one of a "perfectionist exploiter", so by the time I'm at the last boss, I usually have the best items/magic/abilities/etc. you can get in the game. So if I can defeat the hardest boss without changing up my usual strategy, it feels very anti-climatic for me. This probably has to do with how I get more enjoyment from figuring out the fastest way to defeat the boss, then actually... defeating the boss. I love bosses where I actually have to think about character set-up and the like, because by the time I get to them, I'll have figured out the optimal set-up for all the "normal" enemies, and the "normal" enemies will have gotten boring.