SOLDIER and the Jenova Project

A few questions for the canon experts here. I've logic'd my way into some answers, but just want to get your thoughts on these:

1. SOLDIER application process -- what is it exactly?

I believe both Angeal and Genesis volunteered for the program, but that seems like a horrible way to go about recruiting SOLDIERs when there's a war going on. Not even considering the amount of time one would go through examining people who are just unqualified to begin with, but it also seems very vulnerable to security breaches.

2. Did Project G involve mako exposure? In other words, would Genesis and Angeal have been exposed to mako in high concentration before joining SOLDIER?

3. How is Project S connected with SOLDIER? Was it simply that they confirmed that they can directly inject humans with Jenova cells (which they already knew given Gillian herself was injected), douse them with mako, and get super-soldiers out of it? Why did they deem Project G a failure, then, since both Angeal and Genesis also developed super-human prowess? (Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis were clearly the strongest SOLDIERs before Zack came around.)

4. Only sort of related, but ... Sephiroth's age when he began making headlines for his involvement in Wutai? If he was born roughly around 20 years before the start of CC, then he would've been 12 when the Wutai War started. I doubt he'd have been sent to the field then; even if he were as powerful as a SOLDIER 1st Class (... well, it's Sephiroth, anything is possible), no way anyone would've listened to him. So when did he become a "hero" in the public eye, and when did Genesis start hero-worshipping him enough to run off to Midgar while dragging Angeal along with him?

1) The exact process has never been specified, though it is known only those determined to have a strong will are considered due to the effects mako has on the weakminded

2) It's not been specified whether the two received mako exposure before joining SOLDIER, but probably not since neither knew anything about being involved with Shin-Ra before they volunteered

3) The Jenova Project (both S and G) were about creating a new Cetra rather than a super soldier. They already had super soldiers. The SOLDIER program had existed since before Genesis, Sephiroth and Angeal were born. All that the Jenova Project changed about it is that new members started receiving Jenova cells in addition to mako

4) That's round about what their ages would have been, yeah. Shin-Ra wasn't above sending kids to war

Thanks for the answers!

#1: Was probably fishing too much for an answer here. From what I understand:

volunteer => tests (incl. psych tests and prob. physicals) => mako exposure => training

I'm primarily curious about how they weed out people from the volunteer stage. What is, for instance, stopping a Wutai spy from getting into SOLDIER and passing on all that "top-secret" information to Wutai (esp. given that the procedure for creating a SOLDIER is known to be a company secret)? Even if lie detection were involved, I doubt that it is all that effective, and background checks, while useful, have spectacularly failed in the case of Lazard, Genesis, and Angeal, who were all allowed into ShinRa despite strong reasons to keep them out. It may be a case of keeping your enemies closer than your friends, but I can't imagine why anyone would've let those three in, given all the potential revenge plots.

Given that SOLDIER's technically a part of the army, I wonder if SOLDIER prospectives had to serve for a time as infantrymen (say, a year or so) before being taken in and tested as volunteers. This could help gauge loyalty and potential strengths and weaknesses and just weed out the ones who just wouldn't be able to hack it. (Also, Cloud, as we know, was serving as an infantryman. I don't know if he was serving before he applied to SOLDIER as well, but Zack's "So you wanna be in SOLDIER? Hang in there!" speech suggests it's not uncommon to serve in the army before applying to SOLDIER, but it doesn't say anything about it being a requirement.)

#3: Good point that they were trying to create a Cetra, not a super-soldier, though that also begs the question "What were the 'Cetra traits' they were looking for that were present in Sephiroth and not in Genesis and Angeal?"

Also, do you happen to have a primary source on hand re. SOLDIER starting before Project G/S? The few second-hand sources I've read so far (i.e. FFWiki, which also does not give any primary source, and others which pretty much parrot it) suggest that SOLDIER was just something that grew out of Project S.

My Headcanon is completely NOT canon and therefore at liberty to actually make sense:

SOLDIER began as a *result* of the Jenova Project. As the mako revolution transformed a fantasy setting into a sci-fi setting in the span of mere decades, so did Hojo quickly refine the process of J-cell implants from fetus to living human. The result, by the time eya1999 came along, was Sephiroth -- clearly the best and most in-tune with the J-cells that granted him his abilities -- and a score of other humans who had less time to mentally gel with the alien cells.

Turks scout for candidates for SOLDIER. They look within the army first, as young boys (and girls?) flock from around the globe to become heroes. The Turks, obviously, know what kinds of qualities are required of a SOLDIER. In my headcanon, they are Jedi: not only combat machines, but diplomats and emissaries, they are the Knights Templar, a sci-fi version of paladins.

The Turks obviously look for these qualities elsewhere too, because only 2% of their candidates make it into SOLDIER.

The tests are strange. There is no physical aptitude test (the mutations caused by Jenova will fix any physical weaknesses) and the mental tests are designed not to prove the individual's strength of character and ability to problem solve, but actually quite the opposite.

Those whose wills are weak and submissive to the power of Jenova, those who are most able to be molded by her, are the ideal candidates.

Shinra Inc. doesn't understand the dark downside to Jenova's power. To them, it is her Ancient magic coursing through their veins, turning them into super humans. Hojo Hubrispants sees no problem with Jenova controlling the SOLDIERS because he thinks that he controls Jenova.

Cloud, raised ambitious and given a life of quarreling with the popular kids and an extraordinary will power, obviously is found incompatible with Jenova cells and is rejected from the SOLIER program.

After the loss of Sephiroth, and not expecting Zack to break free, Hojo experiments with putting J-Cells in a "failure"-type human, and the result is the story of Final Fantasy VII, wherein Cloud is able to overcome Jenova and become the hero he always wanted to be -- honestly.

Mr. Ite said:

As the mako revolution transformed a fantasy setting into a sci-fi setting in the span of mere decades

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This explains so much in the games. I typically handwave the entire sword/gun coexistence and the strange mish-mash of sci-fi and fantasy as a typical Final Fantasy trait, but this isn't a half-bad explanation. Thanks!

With the understanding that we are now quibbling about headcanon (and wandering slightly away from the main topic, but I am interested), how would you account for the following?

Mr. Ite said:

In my headcanon, they are Jedi: not only combat machines, but diplomats and emissaries, they are the Knights Templar, a sci-fi version of paladins.

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Why would they not designate more diplomatic missions to actual diplomats or even Turks?

Shinra, to me, seems to be much more focused on brute force rather than diplomacy as a tactic. The most glaring example of this is the fact that their immediate reaction to "Wutai ain't letting us build a mako reactor!" is to ... declare war. What? (And then even after they win, they don't build the reactor. Seems poorly thought-out.) They also have apparently been hording DG SOLDIERs underneath Midgar in the eventuality that they may have to bludgeon yet another nation into submission. This does not seem like a very diplomatic nation/company, and I would be surprised if they looked for such qualities in their elite fighting units, who (I would argue) are simply meant to follow orders. Glorified grunts, who are smart but not too smart.

Mr. Ite said:

The tests are strange. There is no physical aptitude test (the mutations caused by Jenova will fix any physical weaknesses) and the mental tests are designed not to prove the individual's strength of character and ability to problem solve, but actually quite the opposite.

Those whose wills are weak and submissive to the power of Jenova, those who are most able to be molded by her, are the ideal candidates.

Shinra Inc. doesn't understand the dark downside to Jenova's power. To them, it is her Ancient magic coursing through their veins, turning them into super humans. Hojo Hubrispants sees no problem with Jenova controlling the SOLDIERS because he thinks that he controls Jenova.

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Regarding the physicals: The issue I have with this is that you really can't just dump a fat kid into SOLDIER and expect him to be a good SOLDIER, so I argue that there must be at least some physical aptitude test. They clearly conduct physicals after people are inducted into SOLDIER to determine how they are progressing physically, so it would strike me as odd if they don't conduct a physical to begin with. Not to mention, you want to make sure your operatives don't have any underlying conditions that would make them a liability in the field.

Regarding the psych evaluation: While it's true that most SOLDIERs seem to have more than a few screws loose in their heads, I don't get any indication from canon that SOLDIERs as a whole are easily manipulated by Jenova. The only ones who have shown weakness are Sephiroth, Cloud, and the other Sephiroth clones. There is that one ex-SOLDIER in Junon who dons the black cloak, because he suddenly felt like it, but that's a minor episode, and I don't think one can argue that he was being heavily manipulated/influenced.

Additionally, I don't think Zack is particularly weak-willed, and I didn't see any other SOLDIER making a run for the North Crater when Sephiroth called for the Reunion.

To be honest, the ideal SOLDIER (to me) logically seems to be someone who is powerful, doesn't cause trouble, and follows orders. Intelligent, but not to the extent that it'd cause issues. Angeal, perhaps, would've been a very good candidate as an ideal SOLDIER had he not learned from Genesis the truth of his past, and maybe Zack (in time, if hell didn't break loose).

Mr. Ite said:

Cloud, raised ambitious and given a life of quarreling with the popular kids and an extraordinary will power, obviously is found incompatible with Jenova cells and is rejected from the SOLIER program.

After the loss of Sephiroth, and not expecting Zack to break free, Hojo experiments with putting J-Cells in a "failure"-type human, and the result is the story of Final Fantasy VII, wherein Cloud is able to overcome Jenova and become the hero he always wanted to be -- honestly.

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Since Cloud was catatonic for close to a year after being stuck in Hojo's lab, I think it can be argued that he was rejected from SOLDIER for good reason -- he simply wouldn't have been able to psychologically withstand the mako infusion, and SOLDIER has no need for catatonic troopers. One can ofc argue that he became catatonic because he was exposed to a higher level of mako or because of the S-cells used, etc.

In any case, I'm conflicted on Cloud's character. I find him to be a very weak-willed character outside of FF7 OG (and even in OG, I'd be hesitant to call him a "strong" character). But that would beg the question of what a strong character is, and everyone has different answers to that particular question.

Age shenanigans

Also, I feel like an idiot, but regarding ages:

Crisis Core begins in εуλ 0000 (aka εуλ 2000).

Wutai War began around 8 years before CC at around εуλ 1991/1992 (8 years before CC).

Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth are born around or before εуλ 1980 (~20 years before CC).

So, at the beginning of Crisis Core, Seph, Angeal, and Genesis should be around 20 years old, with Sephiroth being 12 when the Wutai War begins.

But then I went back and looked at the timeline. In the Complete Timeline of the Compilation, the birth of these three are actually placed before εуλ 1980, in fact between 1972 and 1975. By this other timeline, Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth should be at least 25 years old by the time CC starts. This is more in line with the information I see in Genesis's character profile (which states that he is 25, presumably at the beginning of CC).

So Sephiroth would not be 12 when the Wutai War starts. He should be 16-17 years old. Which is much more believable (esp. considering that Zack also made SOLDIER 1st Class at 16). He goes crazy at age 27 at Nibelheim. And Genesis is 31 when Zack fights him at Banora (four years later).

Shows me up for taking "around 20 years before Crisis Core" at face value without really paying attention to the context. They really meant "around 25 years before Crisis Core," it seems. Well, it is at least one mystery solved.

I don't think it's contradictory to both accept volunteers and conscript to meet the shortfall.

That's true. I wonder how many civilians would make it though without having spent at least a few months in the army.

You know, thinking on it, Zack sounds more and more like a prodigy to me. If Sephiroth was 17 at the start of the war (during which he made a name for himself), then Angeal and Genesis would only have joined SOLDIER at 17, and that's at the earliest (I doubt they joined at 17, probably later). Zack joined at 13-14 and somehow climbed to SOLDIER 1st Class in three years. Mind-boggling, really.

dief said:

That's true. I wonder how many civilians would make it though without having spent at least a few months in the army.

You know, thinking on it, Zack sounds more and more like a prodigy to me. If Sephiroth was 17 at the start of the war (during which he made a name for himself), then Angeal and Genesis would only have joined SOLDIER at 17, and that's at the earliest (I doubt they joined at 17, probably later). Zack joined at 13-14 and somehow climbed to SOLDIER 1st Class in three years. Mind-boggling, really.

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Man, the writers at Square really do not know how to add up their math.

jazzflower92 said:

Man, the writers at Square really do not know how to add up their math.

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They do like their protagonists young. Sora's 14 in KH1 ...

When I played through CC, I thought Zack was 20/21. :/

dief said:

Also, I feel like an idiot, but regarding ages:

Crisis Core begins in εуλ 0000 (aka εуλ 2000).

Wutai War began around 8 years before CC at around εуλ 1991/1992 (8 years before CC).

Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth are born around or before εуλ 1980 (~20 years before CC).

So, at the beginning of Crisis Core, Seph, Angeal, and Genesis should be around 20 years old, with Sephiroth being 12 when the Wutai War begins.

But then I went back and looked at the timeline. In the Complete Timeline of the Compilation, the birth of these three are actually placed before εуλ 1980, in fact between 1972 and 1975. By this other timeline, Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth should be at least 25 years old by the time CC starts. This is more in line with the information I see in Genesis's character profile (which states that he is 25, presumably at the beginning of CC).

So Sephiroth would not be 12 when the Wutai War starts. He should be 16-17 years old. Which is much more believable (esp. considering that Zack also made SOLDIER 1st Class at 16). He goes crazy at age 27 at Nibelheim. And Genesis is 31 when Zack fights him at Banora (four years later).

Shows me up for taking "around 20 years before Crisis Core" at face value without really paying attention to the context. They really meant "around 25 years before Crisis Core," it seems. Well, it is at least one mystery solved.

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I think you've gotten confused by our Timeline of the Compilation page, which needs to be corrected. The timelines from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania place Sephiroth's birth -- and, thus, that of the other two -- at "approximately 25-30 years before FFVII," and also places the discovery of Jenova "approximately 30 years before FFVII" with the previous most specific date being 6/24 of 1976, when the Shin-Ra Company relocated its headquarters to Midgar. Sephiroth was only around 12 when the war began, as you initially thought.

We really need to fix that timeline page sometime.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd been taking that timeline as the definitive one.

However, writing it all out, it occurs to me that Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis could've possibly been 15 when the war started. If I understand you correctly:

1976 (6/24) -- Shinra relocates to Midgar
1977 -- Discovery of Jenova
1977-1982 -- Birth of Angeal, Sephiroth, and Genesis at some point during this period.
1992 -- Wutai War begins.
2007 -- FF7

That means a low count would put Angeal, Sephiroth, and Genesis at age 10 when the war begins, while a high count would put them at age 15.

dief said:

Thanks for the answers!
I'm primarily curious about how they weed out people from the volunteer stage. What is, for instance, stopping a Wutai spy from getting into SOLDIER and passing on all that "top-secret" information to Wutai (esp. given that the procedure for creating a SOLDIER is known to be a company secret)? Even if lie detection were involved, I doubt that it is all that effective, and background checks, while useful, have spectacularly failed in the case of Lazard, Genesis, and Angeal, who were all allowed into ShinRa despite strong reasons to keep them out. It may be a case of keeping your enemies closer than your friends, but I can't imagine why anyone would've let those three in, given all the potential revenge plots.

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Genesis and Angeal's motivations were quite sincere when they first joined and Lazard wasn't in SOLDIER. Also the Shin-Ra scientists are very amoral, they wanted to see how well Angeal and Genesis would do. It's quite possible they failed te psych test and were allowed to join anyway (that's my Headcanon, anyway can't convince these guys had a strong sense of self).

Given that SOLDIER's technically a part of the army, I wonder if SOLDIER prospectives had to serve for a time as infantrymen (say, a year or so) before being taken in and tested as volunteers. This could help gauge loyalty and potential strengths and weaknesses and just weed out the ones who just wouldn't be able to hack it. (Also, Cloud, as we know, was serving as an infantryman. I don't know if he was serving before he applied to SOLDIER as well, but Zack's "So you wanna be in SOLDIER? Hang in there!" speech suggests it's not uncommon to serve in the army before applying to SOLDIER, but it doesn't say anything about it being a requirement.)

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Given that Cloud, at Junon says that he remembers the day he first put on the regular Shinra uniform as the proudest day of his life, I do feel he first joined the army and then applied for SOLDIER. I don't think you have to wait a year though, that would compress Zack and Cloud's timelines to much.

#3: Good point that they were trying to create a Cetra, not a super-soldier, though that also begs the question "What were the 'Cetra traits' they were looking for that were present in Sephiroth and not in Genesis and Angeal?"

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Well, Sephiroth may not have exhibited Cetra traits, but he wasn't normal. Unlike Angeal and Genesis.

Shinra, to me, seems to be much more focused on brute force rather than diplomacy as a tactic. The most glaring example of this is the fact that their immediate reaction to "Wutai ain't letting us build a mako reactor!" is to ... declare war. What? (And then even after they win, they don't build the reactor. Seems poorly thought-out.)

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8 years of war ravaged Wutai, it would no longer have been cost efficient. Had Wutai surrendered like a 4 earlier they may have come out of the thing with a profit. Wutai was just underestimated. And maybe they did built a reactor but it wasn't featured in the game, CC has no problem with that line of thought.

To be honest, the ideal SOLDIER (to me) logically seems to be someone who is powerful, doesn't cause trouble, and follows orders. Intelligent, but not to the extent that it'd cause issues. Angeal, perhaps, would've been a very good candidate as an ideal SOLDIER had he not learned from Genesis the truth of his past, and maybe Zack (in time, if hell didn't break loose).

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Zack was the perfect SOLDIER. Shinra turned on him, Zack never turned on Shinra. Sephiroth was the guy who wanted out.

In any case, I'm conflicted on Cloud's character. I find him to be a very weak-willed character outside of FF7 OG (and even in OG, I'd be hesitant to call him a "strong" character). But that would beg the question of what a strong character is, and everyone has different answers to that particular question.

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I'd put Cloud above Angeal, Genesis or Sephiroth. He never waxed poetically about being an angel or a monster, or turned traitor because of your parentage on a genetic level. If you let that discovery define who you are and what you fight for then do not have strong sense of self in my book. Cloud's only concerns were the ideas that he legit wasn't the Cloud of Nibelheim in his memories or that he could be controlled. He'd never abandon a fight out of ideological concerns like Angeal would.

Minato Arisato said:

Genesis and Angeal's motivations were quite sincere when they first joined and Lazard wasn't in SOLDIER. Also the Shin-Ra scientists are very amoral, they wanted to see how well Angeal and Genesis would do. It's quite possible they failed te psych test and were allowed to join anyway (that's my Headcanon, anyway can't convince these guys had a strong sense of self).

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I can understand the case for Genesis and Angeal, but definitely not for Lazard, who is arguably more important to SOLDIER than those two. After Lazard disappears, the entire chain of command is shot, as far as I can tell, so the oversight on Lazard's background is a pretty big blunder (at least to me). They really should've been checking everything on Lazard, and the fact that he's Shinra's bastard son should've raised some bells.

Then again, they also kept Hollander in the department, so the "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer" attitude seems likely. Maybe they figured Lazard would do more damage if he weren't hired by Shinra. Hard to tell.

Minato Arisato said:

Given that Cloud, at Junon says that he remembers the day he first put on the regular Shinra uniform as the proudest day of his life, I do feel he first joined the army and then applied for SOLDIER. I don't think you have to wait a year though, that would compress Zack and Cloud's timelines to much.

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Thanks for tidbit on Cloud being proud when he first joined the Shinra uniform! I'd forgotten about that.

I was checking some info on the Navy SEALs, and it seems that you can apply as a civilian, but you'd have to apply to the Navy first and then just tell them when you're applying that you'd like to be considered for the SEALs. It's possible the procedure is similar for SOLDIER recruitment.

Minato Arisato said:

Well, Sephiroth may not have exhibited Cetra traits, but he wasn't normal. Unlike Angeal and Genesis.

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The Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q&A states the following:

"Banora was given subsidized funds to hide the construction of the mako facility and as well as for the surveillance of Gillian, Genesis, and Angeal. As they were expected to demonstrate special abilities, it wasn’t only to survey the progress of Project G but also to conceal the information about the inhumane experiments being conducted."

So there was obviously the expectation that they'd turn out different. And they did. They're among the three strongest SOLDIERs in CC, which I do think is tied to their connection with Project G.

Minato Arisato said:

8 years of war ravaged Wutai, it would no longer have been cost efficient. Had Wutai surrendered like a 4 earlier they may have come out of the thing with a profit. Wutai was just underestimated. And maybe they did built a reactor but it wasn't featured in the game, CC has no problem with that line of thought.

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Kind of related, but in the early game drafts, I remember that Barret was supposed to discover Wutai troops using Shinra weapons, implying that Shinra was secretly sending weapons to Wutai to prolong the war (thereby increasing their profit). Makes me wonder if the idea wasn't totally scrapped, since there are definitely some hints in the game that Shinra could've ended the war whenever they wanted.

Minato Arisato said:

I'd put Cloud above Angeal, Genesis or Sephiroth. He never waxed poetically about being an angel or a monster, or turned traitor because of your parentage on a genetic level. If you let that discovery define who you are and what you fight for then do not have strong sense of self in my book. Cloud's only concerns were the ideas that he legit wasn't the Cloud of Nibelheim in his memories or that he could be controlled. He'd never abandon a fight out of ideological concerns like Angeal would.

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I don't want to get into too much of a discussion on this point, because people tend to have different ideas on how to define a strong character. I agree that Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth are not "strong," because they all had their little breakdowns and temper tantrums. However, let's not forget that Cloud had a similar breakdown and was only rescued from utter uselessness by other people (primarily Tifa). That is not a sign of strength to me. People may argue with me on this point, but conjure up a ten-minute AU in which Tifa dies at Nibelheim. FF7 the story would turn into "Cloud is totally fucked up and useless, and Rufus Shinra tries to save the Planet (somehow)." And let's not forget than when Cloud did end up contracting Geostigma, he wanted to lay down and die anyways. He didn't, because of Tifa and the gang. Once again, not his own personal strength but the strength of others is what pushed him through that depressive episode. So I wouldn't even necessarily say he's "stronger" than Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth -- just that his circumstances and relationships were much better than theirs.

If I had to pick a strong character from FF7, I'd definitely pick Zack. His entire world collapsed on him, but he kept on trucking, didn't break down at all, and held onto his own personal dream and code. (Another strong character who comes to mind outside of FF7 is Yuna from FFX.)

As a complete aside, I wish I'd seen Cloud having to face a choice of "terrible necessity." So far all his decisions have been clear-cut and simple (and his sins aren't really those of his own choosing). I wonder if he'd have the strength to decide between two very bad choices, and then I wonder if he'd ever be able to live with himself after making such a decision.

I would still argue that Cloud is stronger than those other three because he accepts that he is weak and pushes on to fight because someone has to. I'm sure he would have preferred Zack had been there to do it, but he wasn't and the world still needed saving, so Cloud did the best he could. That makes him a strong person, having accepted that he's weak and resolved to do the best he can despite it.

Angeal forced Zack to kill him. Genesis was planning to take the whole world down with him. Sephiroth convinced himself that he was superior to everyone else and that the world rightfully belonged to him alone.

Those three are pathetic.

And, yeah, Cloud was too, but he admitted it. That's the difference. He didn't take the easy way out and just lay down and die, he didn't convince himself that he was superior to everyone else (actually, he did do this when he was a kid, but that's part of the point: he used to be as pathetic as Sephiroth), he didn't say that no one deserved good things if he couldn't have them.

Really, it's that extreme selflessness that became the detriment for himself and his family in Advent Children. He was so down on himself that he couldn't give himself the respect he deserved nor even realize that he was hurting the ones who loved him by trying not to burden them.

As for what Cetra traits the company was looking for in the kids from the Jenova Project, that's never been detailed. They were treated differently from Sephiroth, yes, but they were also born first. It may be that by the time he was born and observed, they just decided that the original purpose of the project would never work, so they'd just make the best use of this abnormally strong little kid they had gotten out of the deal. Clearly, Seph developed his superhuman strength and such sooner than the other two, though they were still expected to get there.

The Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q&A states the following:

"Banora was given subsidized funds to hide the construction of the mako facility and as well as for the surveillance of Gillian, Genesis, and Angeal. As they were expected to demonstrate special abilities, it wasn’t only to survey the progress of Project G but also to conceal the information about the inhumane experiments being conducted."

So there was obviously the expectation that they'd turn out different. And they did. They're among the three strongest SOLDIERs in CC, which I do think is tied to their connection with Project G.

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When they join SOLDIER, they prove to be strong, yes. But the documents found in Mako Reactor 5 states that when they were born they seemed normal.

I don't want to get into too much of a discussion on this point, because people tend to have different ideas on how to define a strong character. I agree that Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth are not "strong," because they all had their little breakdowns and temper tantrums. However, let's not forget that Cloud had a similar breakdown and was only rescued from utter uselessness by other people (primarily Tifa). That is not a sign of strength to me. People may argue with me on this point, but conjure up a ten-minute AU in which Tifa dies at Nibelheim. FF7 the story would turn into "Cloud is totally fucked up and useless, and Rufus Shinra tries to save the Planet (somehow)." And let's not forget than when Cloud did end up contracting Geostigma, he wanted to lay down and die anyways. He didn't, because of Tifa and the gang. Once again, not his own personal strength but the strength of others is what pushed him through that depressive episode. So I wouldn't even necessarily say he's "stronger" than Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth -- just that his circumstances and relationships were much better than theirs.

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I agree that Cloud wouldn't have made it very far without Tifa but saying he wanted to lay down and die is inaccurate. He spent months trying to find a cure then resigned to death after repeated failure. He went to fight Kadaj because of Tifa, he didn't die because Aerith turned out to have a cure, not anyone's personal strength of character.

If I had to pick a strong character from FF7, I'd definitely pick Zack. His entire world collapsed on him, but he kept on trucking, didn't break down at all, and held onto his own personal dream and code. (Another strong character who comes to mind outside of FF7 is Yuna from FFX.)

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I'd disagree. His employers and mentors turned against him. His parents, girlfriends, and other friends remained unharmed.

And I'd add that Zack after he busted out of Shinra Mansion never stopped being in a position to help his friend Cloud. That's the difference. Cloud himself was a risk to Aerith, and his uncurable illness made him a burden on his family. Zack says so outright, his dilemma is that everyone (specifically Sephiroth and Angeal) is always passing off their problems on him. He was never the problem, he was a healthy boy from Gongaga with two loving parents until the day he got gunned down.

As a complete aside, I wish I'd seen Cloud having to face a choice of "terrible necessity." So far all his decisions have been clear-cut and simple (and his sins aren't really those of his own choosing). I wonder if he'd have the strength to decide between two very bad choices, and then I wonder if he'd ever be able to live with himself after making such a decision.

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That's what happened in the game. He attacked Aerith, caused her to leave the party giving him to choice of either staying away for everyone's benefit or take the risk and go after her. This time he needed convincing by Tifa and Barret.

He goes after her and this time straight up gets Aerith killed, leaving him again with the choice of staying away or going after Sephiroth, the risks be damned, and this time going after him it is his suggestion (and it damns the world).

And I'd argue Geostigma didn't leave him a set of good options either. Either stay with the family, and risk turning into oily carcass right in from of six-year old Marlene at any given moment or leave them.

I was checking some info on the Navy SEALs, and it seems that you can apply as a civilian, but you'd have to apply to the Navy first and then just tell them when you're applying that you'd like to be considered for the SEALs. It's possible the procedure is similar for SOLDIER recruitment.

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*raises hand and jumps up and down*

I know about this! I know about this! I'm in the Navy, I know about this!

You can't really apply to be a SEAL as a civilian perse. You still have to, actually join the Navy. A SEAL hopeful is no different whatsoever than a regular applicant; they have to pass the pre-military requirements, raise their right hand, go through bootcamp, everything. It's only around the middle of bootcamp where they start offering the chance for applicants to try out for special programs (including SEALs) where the recruits go through special training and screening (while still in bootcamp). If they pass that training (and a lot of people fail), and graduate boot camp, they go through further training, and further training, and further training, and then maybe, maybe they make SEAL. But you are absolutely not a SEAL until you actually become one, you're just a hopeful, and saying you a SEAL when you're not are will get you laughed at, at best, and your ass kicked at worst.

Tons and tons of people fail and drop out special program training at every level. If you apply for a special program and drop out (because you failed a screening, or got an injury during training, or just wasn't good enough), you're still in the Navy (and you still have to do your time, you can't just say 'well, can I uh, just go back to being a civilian? LOL no), they just put you in a regular position stationed somewhere with everyone else.

I'd say that literally almost every member of the Navy, including myself, knows someone who applied to be a SEAL but dropped out. There's no stigma attached to it, though, as everyone knows how difficult it is and people get credit for even having the balls to try.

But yeah, in short, you can't try out to be a SEAL while a civilian. You still have to join the Navy first. You can apply to join at any point in your career though, the earliest being in boot camp.

Hopefully this info contributes to the SOLDIER discussion/comparison.

Sorry, somewhat disorganized:

@ Martha: That is a very good point re: Cloud accepting his own weakness, but note that he only got to the point of accepting his weakness (and continuing to fight in spite of it), because of his friends in the first place. They gave him the opportunity to grow and develop. Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal never really got that same opportunity. (In Genesis's case, it's hard to even say, because while he's utterly pathetic in CC, his story isn't complete.

Random, but I think there are really strong echoes of Seifer's character in Genesis.)

@ Minato Arisato: Yeah, saying that he actively wanted to lay down and die was poor word choice on my part. He wasn't suicidal by any means, he just didn't know wtf to do, because he exhausted all his options, and then contracted the damn disease anyways.

On the decisions: It's difficult to analyze some of the decisions Cloud makes, because Sephiroth was pretty much influencing him the entire time.

I don't think Cloud was ever going to not go after Aerith. There are two reasons for this: First, Sephiroth very clearly told him when he was knocked out that they'd have to go after her, and second, there still really wasn't a choice. He gave Sephiroth the Black Materia (not of his own choosing), and then he had the option of a.) staying away (thereby damning Aerith to death by Sephiroth) or b.) going after her (saving her, damning her to death by Cloud, or damning her to death by Sephiroth). I don't think there's a decision to be made there, since Option B is always going to be better than Option A. He was never going to not follow her.

And then he has the choice to go after Sephiroth after Aerith's death, which also wasn't really a choice in the first place (even if Cloud chooses to rationalize it as such), since Sephiroth was summoning him with the Reunion call. Even if Cloud had a conscious choice in the matter, Sephiroth had the Black Materia already, so Cloud's "options" were: a.) go after him (possibly get back the Black Materia), or b.) not go after him (letting Sephiroth have the Black Materia).

Now, I don't want to make it seem like I'm selling Cloud short here. I think he's a very compelling character precisely because of his weakness, humanity, and character development, but I still don't think Cloud had to struggle much to make the decisions (if he was even really making them in the first place).

On Zack: He wasn't given his opportunity to shine, imo, and CC was arguably never really a story about him so much as it was about the people around him. For starring in his own game, he's a remarkably static character ... but he's also one of those characters I can't really ever imagine breaking, whether that's because that's just how he is or because he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Cloud is the complete opposite; he breaks, heals, breaks again, heals again, etc. and in the process of healing, does become stronger.

Regardless, one thing to note about Zack is that his dreams were never really staked in SOLDIER. His dream was to be a hero, and so even when ShinRa turned on him, he was still able to follow that dream until the end when he died on that cliff.

I wonder what Cloud's "dream" is. At first it was to make SOLDIER and show everyone up, but post-AC, I can't imagine it being the same.

@ Kiss Land: Thanks for the more in-depth explanation! If you don't mind my asking, in light of your experience/knowledge on recruitment for SEALs, how would you imagine the SOLDIER application process to go? Pretty much the same way, with civilians joining the army, getting through bootcamp, and then applying for SOLDIER? I can't imagine SOLDIER applicants having to bootcamp in the way the SEAL prospectives have to in special program training, as they're probably just tested thoroughly instead. (EDIT: do the procedures change during wartime?)

Also, thanks to everyone for the extensive replies. Really appreciate all of them, despite any differences in opinion/interpretation.

dief said:

I don't think Cloud was ever going to not go after Aerith. There are two reasons for this: First, Sephiroth very clearly told him when he was knocked out that they'd have to go after her, and second, there still really wasn't a choice. He gave Sephiroth the Black Materia (not of his own choosing), and then he had the option of a.) staying away (thereby damning Aerith to death by Sephiroth) or b.) going after her (saving her, damning her to death by Cloud, or damning her to death by Sephiroth). I don't think there's a decision to be made there, since Option B is always going to be better than Option A. He was never going to not follow her.

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There is the option of the others going after her without Cloud. I disagree that Option A is always gonna be better then Option B. The crew having to deal with Sephiroth is better then dealing with Sephiroth and Cloud at the same time. Same goes for after Aerith's death.

Though Barret and Red XIII's dialogue during the whole Black Materia thing does make it seem sending the crew without Cloud would be an empty gesture. As big a pain as Cloud can be, he's the leader for good reasons.

I went ahead with fixing the Complete Timeline of the Compilation article. Stuff is now in the right order, important missing details are now present, some errors are removed and the present tense voice is now consistent throughout.

Prohect S has gotten so screwy. It takes a number of years after Sephiroth's birth for Vincent to confront Hojo about the thing, and Lucretia is still working with Shinra even longer then Vincent.

Well, by now we all know how unreliable SE's timelines are, but just in case anyone's curious, I did actually try to date stuff around Sephiroth's birth going by the Complete Timeline that Martha corrected. There's really nothing new to be said, other than 1977-1980 is a jumble of confused dates.

1977: Azul born.

~1977 (around 30 years before FF7): Jenova discovered by Gast.

~1977-1982 (~25-30 years before FF7): Rufus born.* First incident with Lucrecia, Hojo, and Vincent (where Vincent doesn't get shot yet ...).

~1980 (~20 years before CC): Genesis, Sephiroth, and Angeal born sometime around here.**

1980: Gast disappears.

~1992: Wutai War begins.

2000: Crisis Core begins.

2001: Wutai War ends.

2007: FF7 begins.

*According to On the Way to a Smile, Rufus is 25 in FF7 so he should be born in 1982. However, his placement in the timeline suggests that he was born before 1980? I guess it's very possible that they just threw him under this approximate date because the date bracket does technically extend to 1982, but that's an awful way to do things. He really should've just gotten his own date and event.
**Genesis's character profile lists him as being "around 25" during the events of Crisis Core. Well, that would mean he was born in 1975, which is impossible, since Jenova hadn't even been discovered at the time. Because the only two definite dates floating around in this period are 1977 and 1980, you basically have a range of 1977-1980 for their births if you trust the placement of this event in the timeline (see previous note on Rufus's misplacement). The closest you'll get to "around 25" is if you date their births to 1977, which would make Angeal, Sephiroth, and Genesis around 23 in CC, which I suppose is "close enough."

I have to revive this thread, hope it's okay. This topic interests me a lot and I thought this is the right place for a question.

According to the original FF7 game, Jenova was found ~30 years before the events of FF7. But in Advent Children the plate of Jenova's helmet says that Jenova was found in October 10, 1959 (48 years before FF7!) and sealed into Nibelheim's mako reactor in 1979. What are these dates if they're not correct? I doubt they would have just put some random dates to it.

I have always thought that the Shinra scientists spend years studying the new life-form (about 8 years according to those dates). After that Jenova was sealed into the reactor until they came to the point where they wanted to start the Jenova project. That would be much more realistic than if they would have just started the Jenova project without studying it deeper.

Let's think... If they found Jenova in 1977 and the three SOLDIERs were born between 1977 and 1980, it really doesn't seem right. Doesn't it take much more time to really
1) study Jenova and come to the false conclusion that Jenova is an Ancient
2) make plans for the Jenova project and finally put it into practice
3) for the women to carry their children?

I think the whole process would take longer than 1-2 years. Also, Sephiroth must be at least a year younger than Genesis and Angeal because Hojo took results from Project G before starting Project S.

I like to think that they were older than 20 in the beginning of Crisis Core. They look like they're around their mid-twenties like Genesis' character profile says. He could have been born in 1976-77, same for Angeal. Sephiroth maybe in 1977-78. That would also make him 14-15 years old at the beginning of Wutai War. Thinking that he had been a 12-year-old general is just too ridiculous. I'm not buying that.

Oh man, I'm confused.

Square Enix have no interest in chronological consistency. All dates are merely approximate.

1959 is the correct date for Jenova's discovery, though I'm pretty sure it was October 8, not 10. I'm pretty sure they put Jenova in the reactor during its construction but collected samples regularly for study in the mansion. Since Vincent got shot and put in the coffin in 1977, Sephiroth was likely born either that year or the next. Genesis and Angeal were presumably born either the same year or the one before, giving a window of about 17-18 years for Shinra to study Jenova before trying to create human/cetra hybrids with what they thought was a cetra.