Extent of the ripped mobius resources from the remake

hian · Mar 8, 2017

So, as we know the resources for the first FFVII remake event on Mobius FF were directly ported from the remake. What's interesting though, is that the event has expanded since then to include several other scenes - one which looks like the Nibelheim reactor

https://youtu.be/bXdju29OiwE

(It's not apparent at first since the mountains are now beige/brownish rather than black, but later out in the video you can see the weird shape of the mountain peaks resembling that of the Nibelheim mountains)

and the next scene being set within Northern crater where you fight Jenova

https://youtu.be/Q6nHS7wX4Ts

I guess the question here is, are these too ripped from the remake and if they are if what that means for the scope of the first part.
Now obviously, the Sephiroth model is likely the Dissidia one, not the remake one meaning these could be Dissidia stages as well (Im not sure what stages are in that game) and of course these scenes could have been tailor made for the mobile game.
However knowing what we know about the first event chapter resources being ripped, and the Sephiroth model being a rip too albeit from a different game, it doesn't seem unlikely that these map resources are rips too, which means they might have gotten as far as making resources for the final battle.

Knowing the game's going to come out in parts, it seems highly unlikely they'd waste time creating assets for things that won't be used until the final part when the first part isn't even out yet, which may suggest a very unconventional structure for this game, but I leave that speculation up to you guys.
It just struck me as interesting.

ChipNoir · Mar 9, 2017

Considering the same model is the base for the keyart, I wouldn't be surprised if FFVII-R Sephiroth is actually going to be the same. Nomura did draw the concept based on his own ideas, and they may be ideas he rather likes. He did, after all, specifically pick OG Cloud for Dissidia, bucking the Amano trend completely.

But as far as the levels, these are totally new, and likely if not a direct rip, at least very telling of the style the remake will go for.

Also that North Crater area is not unfamiliar territory. Aesthetically it's different from Dissidia, but it's the same basic conceptual lay out. So I wouldn't judge this as anything but a fairly simple thing to produce simply for Mobius.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

The key-art model is obviously different Chip. The reason I raised the difference to begin with is because I initially thought the same as you and then looked up and compared the two to make sure. Just look at the shoulder guards. They're not the same. Add that to the fact that Dissidia Cloud is not the same as Remake Cloud, I very much doubt the remake will be using the same model.

That being said I'm less concerned about style. More specifically I'm concerned about the state of the game's dev cycle and how the game is going to be split. If those arenas are straight rips of the game, then this means they're already working on northern crater. This means northern crater is most definitely not something for the later parts, rather it's something we should expect from part one.

That completely changes the perspective on the remake imo. If they're not splitting the OG story, then what are they splitting? Add this to Kitase's statement about each part being a different perspective, Nomura's statements about the remake not being part of a continuity with the compilation while at the same time saying there won't be any HD remasters - well it makes it sound and look like this is a complete reboot. Part 1 being the basic OG story, and part 2 etc. being other stuff likea retelling of CC etc.

I considered this to be really unlikely and silly for a long time. Now, Im not so sure...

ChipNoir · Mar 9, 2017

hian said:
The key-art model is obviously different Chip. The reason I raised the difference to begin with is because I initially thought the same as you and then looked up and compared the two to make sure. Just look at the shoulder guards. They're not the same. Add that to the fact that Dissidia Cloud is not the same as Remake Cloud, I very much doubt the remake will be using the same model.

That being said I'm less concerned about style. More specifically I'm concerned about the state of the game's dev cycle and how the game is going to be split. If those arenas are straight rips of the game, then this means they're already working on northern crater. This means northern crater is most definitely not something for the later parts, rather it's something we should expect from part one.

That completely changes the perspective on the remake imo. If they're not splitting the OG story, then what are they splitting? Add this to Kitase's statement about each part being a different perspective, Nomura's statements about the remake not being part of a continuity with the compilation while at the same time saying there won't be any HD remasters - well it makes it sound and look like this is a complete reboot. Part 1 being the basic OG story, and part 2 etc. being other stuff likea retelling of CC etc.

I considered this to be really unlikely and silly for a long time. Now, Im not so sure...

If I'm not mistaken, the Key Art is hand drawn by Roberto Ferari, who has started working for Square during the production of XV as a character designer. His name is certainly right there on the key-art, which would be strange since these are Nomura's designs. So I've come to the conclusion this is Ferari's concept of the characters. There are minor differences, but the basic thematic elements are all present.

As for what you say about North Crater? I just don't buy it. It's a very tiny arena, full of simple cubic rock formations, and an unending loop of lifestream energy. I'm no expert but that really doesn't strike me as hard for a few CGI artists to render in a few weeks from scratch or assets from the compilation as a whole. The lifestream's imagery has been solidified since AC, and the rest is all just rocks.

I get where you're coming from, but that flies in the face of the established reason they're dividing it into parts; They want everything in there. The narrative is going to be split apart to allow all of the original to be included. They've hammered that into our heads for the first year since the reveal.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

That's the thing, which I also acknowledge, namely that it could very well be an original arena and not a rip. However, if it is a rip that's something else entirely. Making a high fidelity environment like that is not a walk in the park regardless, and you're not gonna waste time and resources on that if it's not going to be seen in game until the last part - especially granted that the last part might not even be on ps4.

It's all a giant if. Im not saying my chips are down either way or the other. Im saying the possibility is there. As for the reason for splitting it - Thats pr talk in either case. I wouldn't put huge amounts of stock on that.

EDIT:

Also Im pretty sure that Key-Art is a render, not hand drawn. Ferrari's name is on prety much all of the FFVIIR promotional material whether he drew it or not, and given that Cloud is identical to the established remake Cloud by Nomura I think it's obvious these are not his conceptions of anything. The Key-art is just a bunch of 3D renders slapped together in photoshop.

Unit-01 · Mar 9, 2017

I do wonder about the Nibelheim Reactor area.

From the map used in Mobius it is clearly suppose to represent the area. It could very well be assets ripped from somewhere else expect it seems extremely detailed.

IF that is the Nibelheim reactor we will see in the Remake, it will be far different from the ones depicted in the Original and Crisis Core.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

Well, I suppose it's natural with the "realism" direction they're going for with the remake. The original black mountains would like kinda weird in that fidelity. The mobius scene is also during the day, so who's to say it won't look more like the others at night? The size of the thing is frickin marvelous though. If this is the level of scale and change environments will get in general this game is gonna be a beaut' to explore. If we're allowed to explore it... (；・∀&#12539

FFXIII... ugh...

ChipNoir · Mar 9, 2017

Unit-01 said:
I do wonder about the Nibelheim Reactor area.

From the map used in Mobius it is clearly suppose to represent the area. It could very well be assets ripped from somewhere else expect it seems extremely detailed.

IF that is the Nibelheim reactor we will see in the Remake, it will be far different from the ones depicted in the Original and Crisis Core.

It still has the same basic structure for the entrance. The differences are that there's more random reactor stuff (All of which seems to be reused from Sector 5) and there's a long pathway, which seems to be structured to the Mobius style of progress.

Unit-01 · Mar 9, 2017

@Hian- Yea my thoughts, that version of it in Mobius fits a much more realistic version of the area. Realistically if a company built a power plant all the way in the mountains you'd think they support the area and have more than just a single wooden bridge. Although going to what Chip said, the long bridges may have been added for the Mobius style of progression. Walking forward, but still being the same distance away when you get into the next battle.

The fact it's clear day also threw me off, but it looks pretty cool, I don't think we'll ever see Nibelheim like that unless the Remake does it.

If this is a taste or any indication of the scale up of areas outside Midgar, the Remake is going to be visually stunning.

@Chip - I wouldn't be surprised if the Reactors are reused and just changed slightly, they did it in the original, and mechanically it'd made no sense to have them all different. Exclude the Nibelheim one because of Hojo.

_________________________
Now as for the Jenova Synthesis area, I'm a little skeptical on that one, just because that'd be in the Final part which is years from being released. I'd doubt they make areas in the final part soo early. It may have been they used one of the other iterations of the area (from dissidia maybe?) and made a Remake version of it.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

Unit-01 said:
Now as for the Jenova Synthesis area, I'm a little skeptical on that one, just because that'd be in the Final part which is years from being released. I'd doubt they make areas in the final part soo early. It may have been they used one of the other iterations of the area (from dissidia maybe?) and made a Remake version of it.

That or again, the final battle is not slated for the final part. The point I was trying to make, working off of a theory I've heard others sport since the release is that the parts are not separations of Cloud's primary journey, which will all be contained in part 1, but rather that the other parts are the other narrative strands that comprise the story of FFVII more holistically speaking.

I really don't know what Nomura considers to be FFVII or what would constitute a complete telling of that story.
I know the following though :
1.) They're not doing the compilation again, which is odd unless some of it is being rewritten and repurposed as a part of the remake.
2.) Each game is supposedly a stand alone title telling the story from different perspectives. I don't see how that works for most of the original narrative since Cloud is around for most of it, and how incohesive it becomes when slit into several parts.
3.) The idea that the original is somehow inherently too huge to fit in a single game is BS since the arbitors of the size of the remake is Nomura and Kitase, not the game itself - a point reinforced by the fact that they've been candid about adding and subtracting content since the project was announced.
4.) Promo material is littered with compilation references and cues despite Nomura's statement that there is no continuity between them and the remake

If those resources truly are rips, I'd consider the likelihood of the remake being a sort of reboot amalgamation of everything FFVII to be pretty likely. It literally rests on that though, and that's an assumption that can't be justified at this moment.
However, I just wanna hedge my bet so that on E3, if they go full bananas and announce the first part to cover Cloud's entire base arch, I can go "I told you so". Not at all confident that will happen, but that's the point anyways.

ChipNoir · Mar 9, 2017

hian said:
Unit-01 said:

Now as for the Jenova Synthesis area, I'm a little skeptical on that one, just because that'd be in the Final part which is years from being released. I'd doubt they make areas in the final part soo early. It may have been they used one of the other iterations of the area (from dissidia maybe?) and made a Remake version of it.

Click to expand...

That or again, the final battle is not slated for the final part. The point I was trying to make, working off of a theory I've heard others sport since the release is that the parts are not separations of Cloud's primary journey, which will all be contained in part 1, but rather that the other parts are the other narrative strands that comprise the story of FFVII more holistically speaking.

I really don't know what Nomura considers to be FFVII or what would constitute a complete telling of that story.
I know the following though :
1.) They're not doing the compilation again, which is odd unless some of it is being rewritten and repurposed as a part of the remake.
2.) Each game is supposedly a stand alone title telling the story from different perspectives. I don't see how that works for most of the original narrative since Cloud is around for most of it, and how incohesive it becomes when slit into several parts.
3.) The idea that the original is somehow inherently too huge to fit in a single game is BS since the arbitors of the size of the remake is Nomura and Kitase, not the game itself - a point reinforced by the fact that they've been candid about adding and subtracting content since the project was announced.
4.) Promo material is littered with compilation references and cues despite Nomura's statement that there is no continuity between them and the remake

If those resources truly are rips, I'd consider the likelihood of the remake being a sort of reboot amalgamation of everything FFVII to be pretty likely. It literally rests on that though, and that's an assumption that can't be justified at this moment.
However, I just wanna hedge my bet so that on E3, if they go full bananas and announce the first part to cover Cloud's entire base arch, I can go "I told you so". Not at all confident that will happen, but that's the point anyways.

If that happens, I'll perform a humiliating forfiet of your choosing. I know I'm probably falling into the same arrogant trap I've fallen into before, but my guts really strong on this point.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

You don't have to really. I don't believe what I've outlined above to be particularly likely either given SEs track record as of late, and the worryingly scant amount of information on the remake. It's not really my argument either to be fair. I just wanted to raise a flag here just in case. If it happens to be right I'll go color me a duck but wtf that ludicrous theory turned out to be true. If not, then i'll just go, well as expected of SE really.

The Twilight Mexican · Mar 9, 2017

The fact that I don't know how likely this theory is to be true makes me realize how frustratingly little we've been told about the remake in two years.

Tashasaurous · Mar 9, 2017

I think we've all heard very little of pretty much most of their games until like nine months later when they reveal new games while leaving their more important projects-Remake, KH3, ect., in the background somewhere.

So, welcome to my world.

hian · Mar 9, 2017

So I did some more "research" if you can call it that and found that non of the other maps are ripped from arcade Dissidia. The only FFVII map for that currently is Midgar. I'm also looking into some scans from Japanese game magazines featuring comments on the mobius content to determine the extent of the rips if possible. I've also studied the northern crater map in more detail and compared it to earlier Dissidia versions. Not only is this a entirely new thing, it's no rush job. The textures are certainly of the quality on par with the other resources - you can see the crater walls through the lifestream flow if you look hard. There are non of the additional platforms you'd see surrounding the center piece such as the ones in Dissidia, and there's a scene where Sephiroth destroys some of the environment which is interesting because it could mean those assets are associated with the map assets which would fit neatly with what we know of Nomura's stated goal of making environments interactable and partially destructable.

Still it's just all blind conjecture and seeing patterns in bullshit is an unfortunate human trait we all suffer from at times. It's tickling my funny bone though. After all we're dealing with the company who put a guy on stage to troll everyone with a PS4 port of the game while knowing full well an actual remake was already in production. Come on Nomura, bring some balls to E3.

Ite · Mar 9, 2017

*secretly wishes the whole "part" thing was a misdirection and the whole game will be coming out in one installment*

ultima espio · Mar 19, 2017

I want to point out that the model of Cloud is recycled from Lightning returns. He has a new head and arms, but the costume is straight from LR but with the vertices rearranged to fit Cloud's body. It's got 9604 polys. For comparison, Tyro is 3311.

The textures are exactly the same, just compressed and squished into one 1024x1024 image. Meia and Echo's Aerith costume is the same thing too. Download them from the models resource and see for yourself.

The Twilight Mexican · Mar 19, 2017

That's interesting. Kind of makes sense to do it that way too, no older than the Lightning Returns assets are.

hian · Mar 20, 2017

ultima espio said:
I want to point out that the model of Cloud is recycled from Lightning returns. He has a new head and arms, but the costume is straight from LR but with the vertices rearranged to fit Cloud's body. It's got 9604 polys. For comparison, Tyro is 3311.

The textures are exactly the same, just compressed and squished into one 1024x1024 image. Meia and Echo's Aerith costume is the same thing too. Download them from the models resource and see for yourself.

Could you upload a comparison image? I don't have access to the LR textures.

cold_spirit · Mar 20, 2017

I think Kitase's comment about Mobius using some of VIIR's assets is getting a bit blown out of proportion. Yes, some assets are being ripped, but we can't say which ones or the amount. To me it was just a throw-away comment by Kitase meant to increase interest in Mobius among fans (and it seems to have worked).

However, I didn't come here to totally rain on the parade. I do agree with a earlier comment from hian that the remake will be an unconventional retelling of the original. I don't know how, but it just has to be. Maybe Part 1 will feature content all the way to the final boss. Maybe Part 1 will only go up to Midgar, but jump to new events in Rocket Town and Nibelheim to introduce Cid and Vincent. All I know is that I don't feel the majority of VII fans are preparing themselves for the amount of changes this story will receive.

The Twilight Mexican · Mar 20, 2017

cold_spirit said:
I think Kitase's comment about Mobius using some of VIIR's assets is getting a bit blown out of proportion. Yes, some assets are being ripped, but we can't say which ones or the amount. To me it was just a throw-away comment by Kitase meant to increase interest in Mobius among fans (and it seems to have worked).

To hopefully keep this particular point clarified (there have been misunderstandings), remember that what Kitase said is all of the FFVII assets seen in the original FFVIIRxFFMobius event were taken from the remake.

That may not extend to everything (i.e. the Mt. Nibel mako reactor, the platform inside the Northern Crater, and Sephiroth) we're seeing in the new portions of the crossover, but it does encompass at least Cloud, his sword, the Shin-Ra MPs, the Midgar mako reactor, and the Guard Scorpion.

hian · Mar 20, 2017

However, Kitase's comment is strange if indeed part of Cloud's model is using the same texture as LR SOLDIER costume, unless of course the designs are so similar they might as well be the same. After all, the motif is the same, so there's that.

It goes to what I've said before though, about how one can't even treat what devs say like gospel truth. Devs are fallible too, so just because a dev says something doesn't mean that the dev isn't mistaken, misremember or lying.
Good example is some of the stuff Tabata has been saying lately, which is just patently absurd on its face. Or like when looking at devs who worked on older FF games recounting stuff from years back.

Ultimately, testimony will always be the most unreliable form of evidence. If indeed part of Cloud's mobius model is taken straight from LR, then what Kitase says counts for very little.

The Twilight Mexican · Mar 20, 2017

Not the way I'm understanding it. The asset seen in Mobius can indeed be from both LR and FFVIIR without invalidating what he said, can it not? Assuming the tweaked model seen in FFVIIR was imported directly from FFVIIR's files into Mobius.

ultima espio · Mar 20, 2017

They are identical, in fact you can apply the LR ones and stretch the uvs they fit like a glove. Tidus's costume is the same one as in the HD remaster too.

It's possible that the model in the new event is an updated one, since it came out after Kitase made that comment. I haven't checked the guard scorpion to see it's poly count yet.

I'll do a comparison shortly.

hian · Mar 20, 2017

The Twilight Mexican said:
Not the way I'm understanding it. The asset seen in Mobius can indeed be from both LR and FFVIIR without invalidating what he said, can it not? Assuming the tweaked model seen in FFVIIR was imported directly from FFVIIR's files into Mobius.

It can if the same asset was used in both LR and the remake. But that raises the question, is the remake using the LR asset (which is kind weird), or is LR using a remake asset (as in remake Cloud having been in the work since Lightning Returns was released).

EDIT :
So here's a timeline
March 2014 Cloud DLC
September 2014 Nomura leaves FFXV
December 2015 FFVII PC port was released for PS4, at which point we know the remake had entered production.

There's a considerable time-lapse here, but it could suggest that the remake has been in development since 2014.

ultima espio said:
They are identical, in fact you can apply the LR ones and stretch the uvs they fit like a glove. Tidus's costume is the same one as in the HD remaster too.

It's possible that the model in the new event is an updated one, since it came out after Kitase made that comment. I haven't checked the guard scorpion to see it's poly count yet.

I'll do a comparison shortly.

Kitase's comment is pretty old, and was made specifically in regards to the first event, not the following events. So what he said was that the Cloud we saw in the first Mobius FFVIIR event was ripped from the remake.

If that's the case, and as you say this is the same as in LR, that would have to mean that either A.) He's mistaken/lying/, B.) The remake model of Cloud is using the LR texture or C.) The LR texture was also taken from the remake, and remake asset production has being going on since LR.

EDIT :
Are you sure you're not making some weird mistake here ultima?
Look at these pictures :

and

Job%2BWarrior%2B-%2BUltimate%2BHero%2BCloud%2BStrife%2B%2528FF7%2529%2B%2528Skin%2529%2BA.png

They don't look the same to me. The texture of Cloud's pants are differently patterned, the creases in the neck portion etc.
Gloves/wristguards are different too.

Conclusion :

Occam's Razor and all that - the most likely answer here is that Mobius Cloud is not using LR's texture, and we can strike all the confusion above.

Extent of the ripped mobius resources from the remake

Purist

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