The Lifestream Home The Lifestream Forums The Lifestream Shop Donate to The Lifestream
The Lifestream

Go Back   The Lifestream Forums > Compilation of Final Fantasy VII > Final Fantasy VII

Final Fantasy VII All events from the 1997 classic RPG, with which it all began.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06/30/2009   #1
Shademp
Default Church Glitches and Ghosts FAQ *spoilers*

This thread is basically a FAQ to the strange anomalies in Aeris's church in Midgar, Sector 5 Slums. Both the strange misplacement of characters are dealt with, and both versions of the Aeris ghost although the flower-tending Aeris is treated as the "main" ghost.

Huge credits to BrutalAl for most of this info.

1) Basic Ghost Mechanics
a) Why this ghost and these glitches?
b) Ghost-removing NPC
c) The flower-tending ghost starts appearing when...?
d) Can I talk to the ghost?

2) Variations of the Church Glitch.
a) Why the misplacements?
b) Glitch before defeating Jenova-Life
c) Glitch after defeating Jenova-Life

3) Other

--------------

1.a) Why this ghost and these glitches?

We don't know why the ghost of Aeris can be seen tending the flowers in the church. Her presence could be merely symbolic, or maybe part of a sidequest that was scrapped. The ghost itself has nothing to do with the glitches; here referring to Aeris and the kids being briefly visible in the aisle. Nobody knows why the developers messed up with this part of the game; maybe it was some last minute changes or simply they forgot to fix it.
In conclusion, the ghost at the flowers however seems much more intended than the glitches.

1.b) Ghost-removing NPC
Aside from the ghost being permanently cancelled by passing by the out-sticking pew in the aisle, the Nibelheim Inn Keeper during Cloud's flashback in Kalm (not the Inn-Keeper in the present) also removes the ghost!
When speaking to him a second time you are given three dialogue alternatives. Choosing the third alternative, "Let me know the situation of the town.", will cancel the ghost in same way as approaching it. (Choosing the first or second dialogue alternative will not affect the ghost at all.)
Why does he have this effect? A programming error; anything else is highly unlikely.

So if you want the ghost to remain in your playthrough, all you have to do is NOT choose the third dialogue option.
NOTE: Still looking to confirm whether or not there are more NPCs that cancel the ghost.

1.c) The flower-tending ghost starts appearing when...?
BrutalAl (huge thanks yet again) managed to uncover the EXACT moment when the ghost appears;
Right after the fight with Jenova-Life, when all the battle spoils have been given. Entering the church from here on, cheating or not, will show you Aeris at the flowers.

1.d) Can I talk to the ghost?
No, you can't engage in conversation with it. The trick to get up to it though, without it being cancelled, is to just run past the aisle while the screen is still loading. If you are too slow the ghost will detect you passing by that point where the pew sticks out. The ghost disappears whether you pass this point from above or below.
Again, the ghost has no dialogue but is treated as a solid figure that you can't walk through.

----------------
2.a) Why the misplacements?
While the screen loads we see the characters moving about erratically. The reason so many start out in the section above the pews is because that is the field's centre/origo. How is that important?
Usually an object/character has only one position, an initial position, assigned to them. The same with direction, animation, visibility, etc. However they need to be assigned a second trait, such as disappearing when you talk to them or approach them.
This is the case with the kids and Aeris in the church. They have initial attributes, second attributes and so on. For some reason the intended initial attributes fail to load or are all nullified. THAT is why the characters are placed in the middle of the church(in the aisle), standing, and facing down; it's the natural thing for them to do when they have no traits assigned to them.
When the second traits manage to load we see them moving to their intended spots.
So why isn't Reno, as far as we can see, placed in the middle? Well his whole presence is a mystery as well, but somehow he remains there from the earlier scene with Aeris and Cloud.

We don't know why the church is this glitchy. Maybe the programmer had no idea what he was doing, maybe there were some last minute changes that were not finished. We can only speculate.

For those who have not seen the details of the church glitch, below are snapshots of every stage of it. If you cancel Aeris's ghost in the second scenario, all that happens is that the characters are moved about on the scene earlier. In other words it is easier to see Reno's presence when the ghost is slowing down everything. Notice also that while Reno is standing where he is, he is an obstacle that you can't pass through.
2.b) Glitch before defeating Jenova-Life.
Even if you cancel the flower-tending ghost and observe this glitch, the Aeris facing the entrance will be seen.

The boy is at the flowers, but is facing downwards away from the flowers. The girl and Aeris are occupying the same spot (origo) above the pews. Reno can't be seen, but he is at the very bottom. (It is not unlikely that the boy was initially placed in origo, but this can't be seen because the screen is too dark)


Boy is turned to face upwards to the right. On the same frame girl is moved from origo to the flowers. She is facing downwards away from the flowers. (I can't tell for sure whether the boy too occupies origo at one point, but it looks like he was actually assigned an initial position)


Girl looks to the left. (Reno is starting to be visible, only as one pixel though)


Aeris disappears from origo and is not seen anywhere.


Reno disappears.


The screen fully loaded.



2.c) Glitch after defeating Jenova-Life

This is when the ghost that tends to the flowers appear.

The boy and the girl are both occupying origo. The ghost of Aeris is tending the flowers.


The ghost of Aeris starts turning to the left. (Reno is visible)


The ghost of Aeris has finished turning to the left.


Boy is moved from origo to his actual position. He is looking downwards away from the flowers.


Boy is turned to face upwards to the right. The ghost of Aeris starts turning back again.


Girl is moved to actual position.


Girl looks to the left (her actual direction). The ghost of Aeris has finished turning and stays there from that moment on.


Reno disappears.



3) Other

a)
There is more to say about the kids in the church.
Before Aeris's ghost appears you can enter the church and then the kids ask for permission to take care of the flowers. Funny thing is that the same "flag" of this piece of dialogue is shared by the old Inn keeper in the Nibelheim flashback! So if you first speak to the old Inn keeper before speaking to the children, the kids can never ask for permission to take care of the flowers. Because the game thinks it already happened!
(In other words that old man is not just linked to himself, but the dialogue with both kids and Aeris's ghost as well.)

b)
The part with Reno standing where he is is obviously a remnant from the scene before he and the Shinra grunts hunt after Aeris. It is not unlikely then that if we could look below the pre-rendered background, we should see the Shinra grunts standing there as well only to disappear the same time as Reno. (Speculation by BrutalAl)

Last edited by Shademp; 08/13/2009 at 07:11 AM.
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 14:
Archer (07/03/2009), Arianna (06/30/2009), Celes Chere (06/30/2009), Frostwave (06/30/2009), GeoMill (07/05/2009), Hinata Hyuga (07/01/2009), I Am Not Me (08/16/2009), Makoeyes987 (06/30/2009), Munatik (07/01/2009), Ravynne Nevyrmore (08/14/2009), Sheepy (06/30/2009), Tennyo (07/03/2009), Tifaeria (07/03/2009), X-SOLDIER (06/30/2009)
Old 06/30/2009   #2
Shademp
Default

*Post reserved just in case*

Last edited by Shademp; 07/08/2009 at 11:59 PM.
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2009   #3
Makoeyes987
Default

Wow, that's actually pretty damn interesting. Thanks so much for sharing this. I wonder why they chose these events to add the flags for when Aerith's "ghost" disappears?
Makoeyes987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2009   #4
Celes Chere
Default

I second the thanks! This is really interesting, I can't wait to see the updates to the thread.

I'm also wondering why they chose these certain events as well.
Celes Chere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2009   #5
Ryushikaze
Default

If we follow bizarre inscrutable wisdom of the creators logic people apply to the LTD, it's that the more Cloud experience and remembers, the less Aerith matters to him, so her ghost can't appear any longer.

But that's just throwing a hasty backfit into the mix. Honestly, no clue.
__________________
Advent Fanboys: Fear the fanboys. Then laugh at them. - A Naked Tifa Production
Now this is a compilation entry I want to see.
Ryushikaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Ravynne Nevyrmore (08/14/2009)
Old 06/30/2009   #6
Makoeyes987
Default

Don't say things like that Ryu! You're gonna piss off crazies who'd actually believe that
Makoeyes987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2009   #7
Ryushikaze
Default

Then let them be mad. I have no problem pissing people off with their own asinine logic.
__________________
Advent Fanboys: Fear the fanboys. Then laugh at them. - A Naked Tifa Production
Now this is a compilation entry I want to see.
Ryushikaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 5:
Celes Chere (06/30/2009), Hinata Hyuga (06/30/2009), Makoeyes987 (06/30/2009), Teva (06/30/2009), Tifaeria (07/03/2009)
Old 06/30/2009   #8
Makoeyes987
Default

LOL Ryu

Which NPCs are these btw? What do they say? Does anything they say even reference or refer to Aerith or the situation of the Planet at all?

Or is it all random?
Makoeyes987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06/30/2009   #9
Shademp
Default

Mako Eyes wrote: LOL Ryu

Which NPCs are these btw? What do they say? Does anything they say even reference or refer to Aerith or the situation of the Planet at all?

Or is it all random?
I only know what I found so far, and outside of the kids in the church happening to be, well, IN the church, the other NPCs are not related. I mean, the Inn Keeper in the Nibelheim/Kalm flashback only says stuff like "The inn is booked for Shinra, Cloud is that you, monsters have been appearing" etc. And a few points are triggered just by the story progressing. Weird, I know. (The weirdest one is the points triggered by the Shinra Grunt just standing still )

So yes, it appears to be random. However as to why this would appear at all is anyone's guess; maybe it was accidental and/or this flag value is related to other aspects of the game. Unless I can get a hold of Terence (see updated second post), we'll probably never know.
FFVII's programming is effed up
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Makoeyes987 (06/30/2009)
Old 06/30/2009   #10
Ryushikaze
Default

Shademp wrote: I only know what I found so far, and outside of the kids in the church happening to be, well, IN the church, the other NPCs are not related. I mean, the Inn Keeper in the Nibelheim/Kalm flashback only says stuff like "The inn is booked for Shinra, Cloud is that you, monsters have been appearing" etc. And a few points are triggered just by the story progressing. Weird, I know. (The weirdest one is the points triggered by the Shinra Grunt just standing still )
You see, the longer Shinra Grunt stands there, the more he thinks about how a flower girl in pink killed his father as a child, and, well...
__________________
Advent Fanboys: Fear the fanboys. Then laugh at them. - A Naked Tifa Production
Now this is a compilation entry I want to see.

Last edited by Ryushikaze; 06/30/2009 at 09:50 PM.
Ryushikaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Shademp (06/30/2009)
Old 07/01/2009   #11
Shademp
Default

I just realised (thanks to BrutalAl) that all those NPCs and events I listed (except the old inn keeper in Nibelheim) are useless to include. The only important ones, it seems at this point, are those that instantly cause a flag value of 128 or higher.

So this thread is no longer nearly as exciting, but I still have things to check and double-check, so the first post will be edited as I uncover more stuff.

Last edited by Shademp; 07/01/2009 at 12:45 AM.
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2009   #12
Ryushikaze
Default

Wait, doesn't the Grunt standing also send it above 128? Or does it simply start randomizing the number?

Also: technically, does talking to those NPCs RAISE or SET the flag? Because that does change things.
__________________
Advent Fanboys: Fear the fanboys. Then laugh at them. - A Naked Tifa Production
Now this is a compilation entry I want to see.
Ryushikaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2009   #13
Shademp
Default

Ryushikaze wrote: Wait, doesn't the Grunt standing also send it above 128? Or does it simply start randomizing the number?

Also: technically, does talking to those NPCs RAISE or SET the flag? Because that does change things.
Those other NPCs set their own flag one could say. This group of flag looks like this when none is activated;
00000000
When all is activated, it looks like this;
11111111

The only digit that matters is X0000000; when it is set to 1, in binary numbers the code equals the value 128.

Overview;
flag value
1 * 1
1 * 2
1 * 4
1 * 8
1 * 16
1 * 32
1 * 64
1 * 128

Total sum 255

And 1+2+4+8+16+32+64=127, which represents talking to those 7 other NPCs, hence why it is pointless to have them (since they never reach 128).

The grunt represents 32 points, and no, the numbers aren't randomized.

Note: BrutalAl actually helped confirm that the game treats the children in the church (the event where they ask to tend the flowers), and the old Inn Keeper, as the same npc in a way. Whichever one you talk to first gives 64 points, but then no points can be gained from the other
Needless information.
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2009   #14
Shademp
Default

I added info on exactly when the ghost appears.

This project of mine would be a cake walk if I could read the disc's code, know the code for "write to flag (aeris's_ghost)", and then search all the disc's files. This requires some programming skills; although it would confirm definitely if there are more NPCs other than the one in Nibelheim that permanently cancels the ghost. I've never heard of any other character being flagged to the ghost, but I just can't be sure...

Edit: I will be asking for assistance on this issue in the qhimms forum.

Last edited by Shademp; 07/01/2009 at 08:44 AM.
Shademp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/01/2009   #15
Eerie
Default

...

I never knew Aerith's ghost could appear.

I blame my achiever side. I always talked to every NPC a LOT, to get all their informations. LOL. XD
Eerie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:09 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.