► FFVII Before Crisis Archive ◄
- Thread starter Kuraudo.
- Start date
Kuraudo.
Pro Adventurer
► What's this for?
■ AN UPDATED ARCHIVE
The idea is to store as many info as possible of the original 2004 Before Crisis game. I would absolutely suggest you to check out the Mobile Research thread as well.
■ BEFORE CRISIS RECREATED
Eventually with all the information... to revamp the original 2004 Before Crisis game with RPG Maker MV:
(full url imgur)
As aforementioned, ideally the game would be recreated as an offline journey and a much more immersive and eye-catcing experience.
If you want to follow just for fun or to partecipate to the project you can follow below link, scripters and pixel artist are needed.
■ AN UPDATED ARCHIVE
The idea is to store as many info as possible of the original 2004 Before Crisis game. I would absolutely suggest you to check out the Mobile Research thread as well.
■ BEFORE CRISIS RECREATED
Eventually with all the information... to revamp the original 2004 Before Crisis game with RPG Maker MV:
- Upscaled Backgrouds.
- Widescreen.
- Models.
- High quality reproduction of original tracks.
- Optional Orchestrated soundtrack.
- Revamping the dialogues.
- Fun Gameplay.
- English Dub.
As aforementioned, ideally the game would be recreated as an offline journey and a much more immersive and eye-catcing experience.
If you want to follow just for fun or to partecipate to the project you can follow below link, scripters and pixel artist are needed.
- Before Crisis New Game Project - Discord link: https://discord.gg/tCrtsTCk
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Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
i have this dvd since i got the first ~10 issues of yg. i had ripped and converted the trailers on it a long time ago, but if i can find out the dvd i could probably just extract the entire iso. i don't know if that will yield any higher quality, but for archival sake
Kuraudo.
Pro Adventurer
That's good, I tried to upscale to 4k the aforementioned video: that's the result.
I will share the download link once gallery/drive google is done with uploading process.
I will share the download link once gallery/drive google is done with uploading process.
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waw
Pro Adventurer
Can I ask this here, as I'm not sure where else to ask?
Was Fuhito the "planetologist" that founded Avalanche? I believe we've got a two month window formation of Avalanche to their Mako Canon strike. I get that Elfe was the leader, but is there any clear point that identifies the founder?
Was Fuhito the "planetologist" that founded Avalanche? I believe we've got a two month window formation of Avalanche to their Mako Canon strike. I get that Elfe was the leader, but is there any clear point that identifies the founder?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Avalanche was founded by planetologists in Cosmo Canyon long before the OG (this fact dates back to the OG). The ideologies of it then got exported out of Cosmo Canyon and there's now lots of different Avalanche cells all with their own takes on planetology and how far they're willing to go to push that agenda.
Fuhito... well, let's just say Hojo is his hero in terms of the scientific method. His... zeal... for the Planet's survival is also crazy high. To the point he believes humanity in general is a blight to the Planet and his entire goal is to wipe humanity out with the Zicronaide summon. He was also the one credited as being the one to come up with the plans to bomb Mako Reactor 1, but then decided it wouldn't actually *help* the situation because Shinra would bounce right back from it. The branch of Avalanche he's in doesn't care about civilian casualties at all since they're trying too kill off all of humanity *anyway*.
Fuhito is pretty much the main reason Shinra really does not like Avalanche. His branch was so obviously over the top for very bad reasoning/logic. The other Avalanche branches are kind of painted with the same brush as well in the public's eye as a result. Trying to say you're part of the same organization that was trying to wipe out all of humanity with a super-summon doesn't exactly go over well. Or that tortured and experimented on SOLDIERs to drive them crazy to get shock troopers of your own. Or that experimented with Death magic on the regular. Or... you get the idea. Fuhito is what happens when you get a Hojo-type scientist in Avalanche.
Fuhito also isn't the only scientist to take this stance. CC has Hojo's second-in-command go completely around the bend and *deliberately* release the Science Department's monsters into the Midgar Slums because... Midgar needs to pay for letting Hojo experiment on Ifalna, the last Cetra. So that means that it's okay to try to kill off everyone in Midgar. So yeah... reason there's a lot of monsters in the Slums? Someone got pissed at Shinra because of Cetra/planetology reasons and took it out on all the people who really are innocent bystanders.
Avalanche's bad reputation is to the point that in Crisis Core, there's a planetology NPC Zack can talk to that is *very* adamant that he's not a part of Avalanche and thinks that Avalanche is as bad as Shinra is. The Planetologist in CC might not like what Shinra's doing for obvious reasons and gives Zack a lot to think about Shinra, but thanks to Fuhito's faction of Avalanche (which is active at this time), the Planetologist is very much not interested in getting involved with Avalanche. He's not someone who wants to be associated with any part of *that* brand of terrorism/experimentation for... obvious reasons.
All this probably stems from the OG. At least in part. Specifically when Bugenhagan describes the effects of Holy and wonders out-loud if the Planet thinks the real enemy is humanity. Which means killing Sephiroth to free Holy might just *also* wipe humanity out as well. Cloud and Co. go to free Holy anyway, but the idea that the real enemy of the Planet is Humanity itself is why humans not showing up 500 years later is always so ambiguous. It was never clear in the OG if humanity *hadn't* actually been wiped out by Holy in the end.
Fuhito... well, let's just say Hojo is his hero in terms of the scientific method. His... zeal... for the Planet's survival is also crazy high. To the point he believes humanity in general is a blight to the Planet and his entire goal is to wipe humanity out with the Zicronaide summon. He was also the one credited as being the one to come up with the plans to bomb Mako Reactor 1, but then decided it wouldn't actually *help* the situation because Shinra would bounce right back from it. The branch of Avalanche he's in doesn't care about civilian casualties at all since they're trying too kill off all of humanity *anyway*.
Fuhito is pretty much the main reason Shinra really does not like Avalanche. His branch was so obviously over the top for very bad reasoning/logic. The other Avalanche branches are kind of painted with the same brush as well in the public's eye as a result. Trying to say you're part of the same organization that was trying to wipe out all of humanity with a super-summon doesn't exactly go over well. Or that tortured and experimented on SOLDIERs to drive them crazy to get shock troopers of your own. Or that experimented with Death magic on the regular. Or... you get the idea. Fuhito is what happens when you get a Hojo-type scientist in Avalanche.
Fuhito also isn't the only scientist to take this stance. CC has Hojo's second-in-command go completely around the bend and *deliberately* release the Science Department's monsters into the Midgar Slums because... Midgar needs to pay for letting Hojo experiment on Ifalna, the last Cetra. So that means that it's okay to try to kill off everyone in Midgar. So yeah... reason there's a lot of monsters in the Slums? Someone got pissed at Shinra because of Cetra/planetology reasons and took it out on all the people who really are innocent bystanders.
Avalanche's bad reputation is to the point that in Crisis Core, there's a planetology NPC Zack can talk to that is *very* adamant that he's not a part of Avalanche and thinks that Avalanche is as bad as Shinra is. The Planetologist in CC might not like what Shinra's doing for obvious reasons and gives Zack a lot to think about Shinra, but thanks to Fuhito's faction of Avalanche (which is active at this time), the Planetologist is very much not interested in getting involved with Avalanche. He's not someone who wants to be associated with any part of *that* brand of terrorism/experimentation for... obvious reasons.
All this probably stems from the OG. At least in part. Specifically when Bugenhagan describes the effects of Holy and wonders out-loud if the Planet thinks the real enemy is humanity. Which means killing Sephiroth to free Holy might just *also* wipe humanity out as well. Cloud and Co. go to free Holy anyway, but the idea that the real enemy of the Planet is Humanity itself is why humans not showing up 500 years later is always so ambiguous. It was never clear in the OG if humanity *hadn't* actually been wiped out by Holy in the end.
waw
Pro Adventurer
OF, I appreciate that, but I think there's some gaps in that. Isn't there an ultimania for Remake that lists Avalanche's founding as 2 months before the Mako Canon attack in BC?
The "Planetologists" seems like it'd include Fuhito, a man from Cosmo Canyon. Or Elfe, who seems to have been in Fuhito's erm... care... for some time before BC. All i'm trying to get is some clarity on the timeline. None of this gets contradicted by Remake and I'm assuming the Old Guard/Avalanche HQ is Elfe's branch.
By that time, Elfe or Veld could theoretically be in charge of it... or Shears if he's alive. But the "founder" gets listed in English as a single person often enough, though that's odd in Japanese. I'm just trying to figure out if we have any implications for a founder that isn't this group.
The "Planetologists" seems like it'd include Fuhito, a man from Cosmo Canyon. Or Elfe, who seems to have been in Fuhito's erm... care... for some time before BC. All i'm trying to get is some clarity on the timeline. None of this gets contradicted by Remake and I'm assuming the Old Guard/Avalanche HQ is Elfe's branch.
By that time, Elfe or Veld could theoretically be in charge of it... or Shears if he's alive. But the "founder" gets listed in English as a single person often enough, though that's odd in Japanese. I'm just trying to figure out if we have any implications for a founder that isn't this group.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Most of the gaps are things that we don't know anything about. And simply weren't explained. There's a lot of things about AVALANCHE that aren't explained overall.
The thing is, Fuhito's AVALANCHE isn't the original AVLALANCHE. No one knows what group that is. We just know it came out of Cosmo Canyon.
Looking in BC, AVLANCHE's creation isn't mentioned by the time of the 1st Junon mission. If it is in the Remake Ultimania, this is the first time I've heard of it. What is in the Remake Ultimania is the different AVALANCHE groups. There's the Main Branch, Radical Branch and Barret's Branch. And Fuhito's branch would fit the Radical Branch description (tried to take Shinra Officers Hostage) pretty well. They certainly are not the Main Branch of Avalanche, that would fit the Branch Yuffie works with in Intermission.
"Planetologists" are just scientists who study the Planet/Lifestream/mako and they aren't necessarily against Shinra. Both Grimoire Vallentine and Lucrecia Crecent were planetologists as well. And they were scientists working for Shinra sudying mako. There is a group of them out at Cosmo Canyon, but they're by no means the only ones. It probably would have been planetologists who stumbled upon mako energy first.
Shears dies for good at the end of BC. Elfe... really was gotten into all of this by Fuhito due to her amneisa. Fuhito had set the whole thing up and it really is his branch off AVALANCHE more than anyone elses. Veld and Elfe want nothing to do with AVALANCHE. In fact, they are on the run from Fuhito for a good few years of BC. They just want to disappear by the end and Rufus and Tseng fake their deaths so they can do so. Veld later shows up to help coordinate Midgar's evacuation from Meteor in Case of Shinra.
The "founder" of Avalanche is more than likely in Cosmo Canyon. Bugenhagin is probably the best candidate for it at the moment. Avalanche's origins are really fuzzy though in terms of a time table and we really have no idea how long ago it was started. Although I bet this will be gone into more in Remake once we actually get to Cosmo Canyon.
The thing to keep in mind is that Avalanche really started with a philosophy about how the Planet worked. How that got practically worked out... varies... a lot depending on the individual.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Planetology is more like a religion than anything else. It comprises a set of beliefs, some of which are based on facts, and has splintered into a number of different sects, some of which are more extreme than others.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
waw
Pro Adventurer
Did you see Obsidian Fire's post above? My understanding is that Elfe's group is the first incarnation of Avalanche. Their post implies it's just an offshoot of the original founded by another group of Planetologists. I don't recall reading that anywhere and my understanding is the BC Avanche is THE original Avalanche. The timing between the Founding and the Junon attack is so cloae there really isn't timing for a splintering and such in which the Original Avalanche disappears.
Fuhito puppet-mastered Elfe, so he's not an offshoot, which OF argued above.
I've said nothing about other planetologists or anti-Shinra groups. Simply: who is the "founder" of Avalanche? Fuhito strikes me as the Cosmo Canyon founder spoken of in lore (not Bugenhagen, which OF argued above). Elfe plays the role but we know she was more of a figurehead.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's an offshoot in the sense that they began from the group of planetologists in Cosmo Canyon who understood that Shinra's extraction of mako from the Planet would lead to its demise.
We don't know who the founder of AVALANCHE is. Fuhito however is most certainly not the founder. He was a student. Who that founder is, is a mystery.
We don't know who the founder of AVALANCHE is. Fuhito however is most certainly not the founder. He was a student. Who that founder is, is a mystery.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
We legit don't know *when* Fuhito founded BC AVALANCHE. I've looked in the first few episodes of BC surrounding the first Junon Attack they did and there's nothing about AVALANCHE's founding in there. There also isn't any *translated* Remake Ultimania info about AVALANCHE's founding I can find either. Like... if it's a fact you've read in the Utlimania that has never been brought up, *please* post the source/page number/*something*. I really do want to know where your dates come from. We have a huge lack of information about AVALANCHE's founding in general, but we need an actual *source* for any new info brought to the table also. Just saying something is true... doesn't cut it.
Speaking of Sources... here's a bunch of text from the OG about Cosmo Canyon and the roles it plays
Speaking of Sources... here's a bunch of text from the OG about Cosmo Canyon and the roles it plays
Before being let in Cosmo Canyon said:
No one knows who this person is. But given what we do know of Fuhito's background, it wouldn't be him. Fuhito *isn't* really a planetologist. He fell into the Lifestream and learned something from it that caused him to want to wipe out all of humanity. And then he found Elfe who had Zicronaide in her and realized he could use Zicronaide to do that. Which was when he formed his branch of AVALANCHE. Remake calls it the Radical Branch.1st Visit; in the Elder's Room said:
1st Visit; after watching Hologram of Planetology said:
This next quote is probably where some of the ideas of humanity being bad for the Planet all stem from. You wonder how much of this is in actual "planetology".1st Visit; after fixing the buggy said:
2nd Visit to Forgotten City said:
waw
Pro Adventurer
Thanks for the clarificaiton. I just hadn't seen anyone anywhere refer to planetologists as "Avalanche" without reference an anti-Shinra terrorist cell, so calling them an off-shoot just... isn't how it's normally used in English. It's why it was confused. I keep my own timeline of FF7 events, so I had to go back. It's not an ultimania, it's the FFVII Remake World Preview book, which includes some timeline stuff.
I hope this satisfies the sourcing. On to the information:
What I have in my notes in within the first two months of 0001, Avalanche was formed by a Planetologist in Cosmo Canyon. (Japanese, of course, gets weird with singulars and plurals, so this could have meant to be plural?).
February of that year (second month) the attack on Junon begins.
Since this timeline places Avalanche's founding in 0001, and Avalanche's Insurgency begins in February, the founding must have been within a two month period. It's listed as operating out of Wutai, which also follows the BC group.
So either Fuhtio/Elfe, etc were the founders of Avalanche, or they lost their leader within the first two possible months of existence that resulted in their first attack. They were also stationed in Wutai and there's no mention of this being an off-shoot or branch.
In year 0007, October, "Avalanche's leader is assassinated." (Source: World Preview Timeline) So yes, here, it doesn't say "founder," it simply says Leader and this could have shifted power in those years. But isn't that also when Rufus files his report at the end of BC that Elfe was executed by Tseng? So, this makes sense to me that Elfe is the "Leader" that's assassinated.
Here's my rub: Fuhito and Elfe make no mention of splintering off of Avalanche to my knowledge or being another cell. Other cells don't seem to form until, it seems, toward the end of what would be the BC events in the Remake timeline, that is, when Shears seems to work with Veld to save Felicia from Fuhito. I am not saying Shears splinters Avalanche, but this is the only event we see of separate operatives going separate ways for Avalanche in the BC events. In Remake, after that point in time, splinter cells seem to pop up.
Is the splintering closer to the start of FF7, which Remake would have us believe with Barret's cells, or over 7 years before the events as suggested here? Do we have any evidence that Fuhito and Elfe's incarnation of Avalanche wasn't the original one? That seems to be an assertion made without evidence.
The conclusion that there was an Avalanche founder before Fuhito and/or Elfe, depending how you interpret their Avalanche role, is without evidence.
Any statement proclaiming they were the definitive founder of Avalanche is also without evidence, but this timeline strongly suggests it is one of them, if not both.
(As in, was Elfe/Felicia living in Cosmo Canyon and a student of Bugenhagen in addition to Fuhito? Something like that? Don't know.)
Didn't Fuhito study in Cosmo Canyon and/or is from there? I don't see why this doesn't fit. But saying "guy" makes me presume the founder was Fuhito over Elfe, if they are the only two options.
Why isn't Fuhito a planetologist? My understanding was he studied under Bugenhagen. There is a BC cutscene that at least implied this to me. I don't see why he doesnt' fit the bill.
I admit though, I'm at a loss that he fell into the Lifestream. I don't remember that at all. In Chapter 18, Veld approaches Bugenhagen for information on his daughter.
(Sidenote: I'm unclear why Bugenhagen knows much about Elfe. I guess it has to do with being a Planetologist, but that's just weird to me.)
We come to a bit of dialogue between Bugenhagen and Fuhito. I've quoted "Turk Leader" here:
Like much of BC's script, it leaves a lot to be desired. Bugenhagen and Fuhito share a past together, though it's not conclusive as to what that past is. Likewise, Fuhito calling Bugenhagen the foremost authority of the planet is... exposition for the player more than anything. I can't remember, honestly, if there was anything that concrectely pegged Fuhito as Bugenhagen's student. Am I missing something?
Anyway, given these dates, Avalanche was founded in a very narrow window before the Junon operation in February, 0001. It doesn't say "Avalanche Cell," so that leaves it to up to four imaginable members (Shears, who is stated as a recruit, Elfe the leader, Fuhito, and maaaaaaybe Rufus as the secret mole?) that are still around in BC, unless the founder was killed off or something off screen and never mentioned to this day.
I hope this satisfies the sourcing. On to the information:
What I have in my notes in within the first two months of 0001, Avalanche was formed by a Planetologist in Cosmo Canyon. (Japanese, of course, gets weird with singulars and plurals, so this could have meant to be plural?).
February of that year (second month) the attack on Junon begins.
Since this timeline places Avalanche's founding in 0001, and Avalanche's Insurgency begins in February, the founding must have been within a two month period. It's listed as operating out of Wutai, which also follows the BC group.
So either Fuhtio/Elfe, etc were the founders of Avalanche, or they lost their leader within the first two possible months of existence that resulted in their first attack. They were also stationed in Wutai and there's no mention of this being an off-shoot or branch.
In year 0007, October, "Avalanche's leader is assassinated." (Source: World Preview Timeline) So yes, here, it doesn't say "founder," it simply says Leader and this could have shifted power in those years. But isn't that also when Rufus files his report at the end of BC that Elfe was executed by Tseng? So, this makes sense to me that Elfe is the "Leader" that's assassinated.
Here's my rub: Fuhito and Elfe make no mention of splintering off of Avalanche to my knowledge or being another cell. Other cells don't seem to form until, it seems, toward the end of what would be the BC events in the Remake timeline, that is, when Shears seems to work with Veld to save Felicia from Fuhito. I am not saying Shears splinters Avalanche, but this is the only event we see of separate operatives going separate ways for Avalanche in the BC events. In Remake, after that point in time, splinter cells seem to pop up.
Is the splintering closer to the start of FF7, which Remake would have us believe with Barret's cells, or over 7 years before the events as suggested here? Do we have any evidence that Fuhito and Elfe's incarnation of Avalanche wasn't the original one? That seems to be an assertion made without evidence.
The conclusion that there was an Avalanche founder before Fuhito and/or Elfe, depending how you interpret their Avalanche role, is without evidence.
Any statement proclaiming they were the definitive founder of Avalanche is also without evidence, but this timeline strongly suggests it is one of them, if not both.
(As in, was Elfe/Felicia living in Cosmo Canyon and a student of Bugenhagen in addition to Fuhito? Something like that? Don't know.)
Didn't Fuhito study in Cosmo Canyon and/or is from there? I don't see why this doesn't fit. But saying "guy" makes me presume the founder was Fuhito over Elfe, if they are the only two options.
Why isn't Fuhito a planetologist? My understanding was he studied under Bugenhagen. There is a BC cutscene that at least implied this to me. I don't see why he doesnt' fit the bill.
I admit though, I'm at a loss that he fell into the Lifestream. I don't remember that at all. In Chapter 18, Veld approaches Bugenhagen for information on his daughter.
(Sidenote: I'm unclear why Bugenhagen knows much about Elfe. I guess it has to do with being a Planetologist, but that's just weird to me.)
We come to a bit of dialogue between Bugenhagen and Fuhito. I've quoted "Turk Leader" here:
Like much of BC's script, it leaves a lot to be desired. Bugenhagen and Fuhito share a past together, though it's not conclusive as to what that past is. Likewise, Fuhito calling Bugenhagen the foremost authority of the planet is... exposition for the player more than anything. I can't remember, honestly, if there was anything that concrectely pegged Fuhito as Bugenhagen's student. Am I missing something?
Anyway, given these dates, Avalanche was founded in a very narrow window before the Junon operation in February, 0001. It doesn't say "Avalanche Cell," so that leaves it to up to four imaginable members (Shears, who is stated as a recruit, Elfe the leader, Fuhito, and maaaaaaybe Rufus as the secret mole?) that are still around in BC, unless the founder was killed off or something off screen and never mentioned to this day.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I really need to go back and look over BC in its entirely, rather than piecemeal if I've forgotten that conversation...
That is a really good find in the World Preview Book. I'd forgotten that bit of timing. Pic for people who want it...
What doesn't make sense and still has to be made to fit with Remake is how the Remake Ultimania describes the branches of Avalanche. You've got the Main Branch, Radical Branch, and Barret's Branch. We can safely ignore Barret's branch, since we know when it forms and what it's goals are.
The Main Branch and Radical Branch are harder. The Radical Branch can only be Fuhito's Branch given how it's described. It's mentioned to not be around any longer and that it would take custody of important people in the Shinra Company. Which is another thing we see only Fuhito's Branch doing.
The Main Branch isn't talked about as much. But it's described as the Branch that Barret left due to policy differences. Barret and Co. are said to be more similar to the Radical Branch that existed in the past than they are to the Main Branch. This fits the group of Avalanche that Yuffie is working with in Intergrade. They focus less on terrorism and more on infiltration and undercover activities. So... I don't think it's a stretch to say they *don't* want to get found out. Compared to Barret and Fuhito who really don't care if Shinra finds out they exist.
Unfortunately, the page about Avalanche (page 71) hasn't had anyone interested in doing a *good* translation of it. So here's the original JP and a machine translation of that section that was cleaned up somewhat.
Also interesting is the Avalanche Keyword from the 10 Anniversary Ultimania... which makes Avalanche out to have been huge at one point with *a lot* of different branches... although it might be reconnected now...
That is a really good find in the World Preview Book. I'd forgotten that bit of timing. Pic for people who want it...
What doesn't make sense and still has to be made to fit with Remake is how the Remake Ultimania describes the branches of Avalanche. You've got the Main Branch, Radical Branch, and Barret's Branch. We can safely ignore Barret's branch, since we know when it forms and what it's goals are.
The Main Branch and Radical Branch are harder. The Radical Branch can only be Fuhito's Branch given how it's described. It's mentioned to not be around any longer and that it would take custody of important people in the Shinra Company. Which is another thing we see only Fuhito's Branch doing.
The Main Branch isn't talked about as much. But it's described as the Branch that Barret left due to policy differences. Barret and Co. are said to be more similar to the Radical Branch that existed in the past than they are to the Main Branch. This fits the group of Avalanche that Yuffie is working with in Intergrade. They focus less on terrorism and more on infiltration and undercover activities. So... I don't think it's a stretch to say they *don't* want to get found out. Compared to Barret and Fuhito who really don't care if Shinra finds out they exist.
Unfortunately, the page about Avalanche (page 71) hasn't had anyone interested in doing a *good* translation of it. So here's the original JP and a machine translation of that section that was cleaned up somewhat.
Original JP text said:
If someone wants to take a better stab at this, please do so... but the fact remains that there's at least three Avalanche groups. One of which is now defunct and matches Fuhito's group to a T. And it's not the Main Avalanche faction....Machine Translation with minor clean-up said:
Also interesting is the Avalanche Keyword from the 10 Anniversary Ultimania... which makes Avalanche out to have been huge at one point with *a lot* of different branches... although it might be reconnected now...
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waw
Pro Adventurer
Thanks OF. Seems like Avalanche probably split over the course of BC with unseen characters. I do imagine Elfe's branch as being the main one. Maybe Fuhito and his activities are more of the Radical Branch? That split isn't seen by the player, but being Turks we wouldn't get that info.
I still can't see there being another main branch the way they're talked about prior to Remake.
The Old Guard that saves Cloud in Remake, they're dressed like the BC group. Can we draw any conclusions there?
I still can't see there being another main branch the way they're talked about prior to Remake.
The Old Guard that saves Cloud in Remake, they're dressed like the BC group. Can we draw any conclusions there?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Elfe's Branch *is* Fuhito's Branch. She's the leader in name only because she's a much stronger fighter and carismatic figure than Fuhito is. But Fuhito is the one pulling the strings ultimately. Elfe quits Avalanche though when she gets her memory back (at the Corel Incident) and it becomes Fuhito's Branch for reals there.
Then Avalanche goes quite for... almost three years. Fuhito is trying to find the stuff for Zicronaide and isn't really worring about Shinra at all anymore. That's his desire anyway. All he wants to do is summon Zicronaide. It heats up again when Shinra finds Veld and Elfe by accident which means now Fuhito knows about them too. Several months later in October, it's kinda a race down to the wire for Fuhito to summon Zicronaide in himself and the Turks to beat the summon before it really fully get summoned and kills everyone. Once they do that, Veld, Elfe, and all the Turks have their deaths fake by Rufus and Tseng. And they all go into hiding/retirement essentially. And that's the real end of Fuhito's branch of Avalanche.
Barret kind of picks up where Fuhito left off in December.
The Main Branch... no one actually knows that there *is* a Main Branch. In part because they're not like... actually going around bombing Shinra and being at overt war whit Shinra. Intermission has them preferring a much more steathy touch which... has been working seeing Shinra doesn't have anything about them the way they know about Fuhito and Barret's groups.
The Main Branch is.... kinda a surprise to everyone because while we knew Fuhito and Barret's branches weren't the *only* branches out there, we'd never met any others so far. It's only now that we're learning who all the fringe groups we've met so far were breaking off from.
Then Avalanche goes quite for... almost three years. Fuhito is trying to find the stuff for Zicronaide and isn't really worring about Shinra at all anymore. That's his desire anyway. All he wants to do is summon Zicronaide. It heats up again when Shinra finds Veld and Elfe by accident which means now Fuhito knows about them too. Several months later in October, it's kinda a race down to the wire for Fuhito to summon Zicronaide in himself and the Turks to beat the summon before it really fully get summoned and kills everyone. Once they do that, Veld, Elfe, and all the Turks have their deaths fake by Rufus and Tseng. And they all go into hiding/retirement essentially. And that's the real end of Fuhito's branch of Avalanche.
Barret kind of picks up where Fuhito left off in December.
The Main Branch... no one actually knows that there *is* a Main Branch. In part because they're not like... actually going around bombing Shinra and being at overt war whit Shinra. Intermission has them preferring a much more steathy touch which... has been working seeing Shinra doesn't have anything about them the way they know about Fuhito and Barret's groups.
The Main Branch is.... kinda a surprise to everyone because while we knew Fuhito and Barret's branches weren't the *only* branches out there, we'd never met any others so far. It's only now that we're learning who all the fringe groups we've met so far were breaking off from.
waw
Pro Adventurer
Sorry, let me rephrase as I think I was misunderstood.
I think what Avalanche HQ calls as the "radical" branch is referring to Fuhito's internal coup when Elfe regains her memories in Corel and Fuhito takes over. This marks a change and it's logical that many Avalanche members would want to go into a different direction that anything that Fuhito did and said.
Shears and Felicia? That's the point they go in a different direction than Avalanche. Before that, it's unified. We have no evidence of splits before that point as far as I can tell.
Now, I do think that all of Avalanche was the "radical" branch, but it's easier to say "that last guy that tried to burn the world? Yeah, he was crazy, not one of us." It's retroactive history. I don't think it's a legitimate claim. Much like the World Prewiew says the 'Leader of Avalanche was assassinated.' If that's Fuhito, okay, though I'm not sure that was an assassination. If it's Elfe/Felicia, makes a bit more sense... but also not actually assassinated. Somehwere, we're being misled.
I think the moment these splits in Avalanche happened is probably over the course of the BC story, off screen from the player and likely around Corel. It would make sense if loyalists to Felicia and/or Shears started to call themselves the "true" Avalanche and call themselves "Avalanche HQ." If we recall, the Old Guard that saves Cloud and co. are dressed as BC Avalanche. Those designs are the same. If BC is some radical off shootgroup, I don't think the designs would be the same.
I'm not even saying they are certainly one and the same, I'm saying there's no evidence to support there's a NEW Main Branch that we never saw that's separate from the BC branch. You said to support things with evidence, right? This needs supported.
1. Within two months Avalanche forming, Elfe is the leader of an attack in Junon.
2. Avalanche is consistently said to have their HQ in Wutai. We see this HQ in BC.
3. Avalanche Leader dies when Elfe and Fuhito die (either one World Preview is referring to).
There's no evidence to claim BC Avalanche ISN'T the original Avalanche and/or is an off-shoot.
The only thing we have is "Avalanche HQ" saying they aren't like the "Radical" Avalanche that tried taking Shinra heads captive. Well, Fuhito, his Ravens? They're dead. This is an easy claim to make.
While this is just my reading and not evidence, it's perfectly logical for the group to want to go in a new, cleaner direction and Barret to refuse and that's the splinter.
I think what Avalanche HQ calls as the "radical" branch is referring to Fuhito's internal coup when Elfe regains her memories in Corel and Fuhito takes over. This marks a change and it's logical that many Avalanche members would want to go into a different direction that anything that Fuhito did and said.
Shears and Felicia? That's the point they go in a different direction than Avalanche. Before that, it's unified. We have no evidence of splits before that point as far as I can tell.
Now, I do think that all of Avalanche was the "radical" branch, but it's easier to say "that last guy that tried to burn the world? Yeah, he was crazy, not one of us." It's retroactive history. I don't think it's a legitimate claim. Much like the World Prewiew says the 'Leader of Avalanche was assassinated.' If that's Fuhito, okay, though I'm not sure that was an assassination. If it's Elfe/Felicia, makes a bit more sense... but also not actually assassinated. Somehwere, we're being misled.
I think the moment these splits in Avalanche happened is probably over the course of the BC story, off screen from the player and likely around Corel. It would make sense if loyalists to Felicia and/or Shears started to call themselves the "true" Avalanche and call themselves "Avalanche HQ." If we recall, the Old Guard that saves Cloud and co. are dressed as BC Avalanche. Those designs are the same. If BC is some radical off shootgroup, I don't think the designs would be the same.
A fairly good window for an internal Avalanche split/war/in-fighting without Elfe and Shears leading things up.
I never understood the idea of Barret just walking into town and picking up where Fuhito left off, but that seems to be what happened. It would have made more sense to me if Barret served with Fuhito buuut... well I'm not the writer.
Uhhh... I think this is a fan reading? Who doesn't know there's a Main Branch? I think we see it in BC and I've yet to see anything that contradicts this. Even in Remake. Yes, they're more behind the scenes, but we have nothing suggesting there is a quiet, behind the scenes branch during BC.
This isn't substantiated. You're firm in your interpretation that Avalanche HQ isn't Fuhito's/Elfe's Avalanche. What we know is that Remake-Era Avalanche is distancing themselves from what seems to be Fuhito's actions, but that doesn't mean they'd distance themselves from Elfe. Does that make sense? If Avalanche members knew the truth about those two, many could still be loyal to Avalanche and detest maniacal Fuhito.
I'm not even saying they are certainly one and the same, I'm saying there's no evidence to support there's a NEW Main Branch that we never saw that's separate from the BC branch. You said to support things with evidence, right? This needs supported.
1. Within two months Avalanche forming, Elfe is the leader of an attack in Junon.
2. Avalanche is consistently said to have their HQ in Wutai. We see this HQ in BC.
3. Avalanche Leader dies when Elfe and Fuhito die (either one World Preview is referring to).
There's no evidence to claim BC Avalanche ISN'T the original Avalanche and/or is an off-shoot.
The only thing we have is "Avalanche HQ" saying they aren't like the "Radical" Avalanche that tried taking Shinra heads captive. Well, Fuhito, his Ravens? They're dead. This is an easy claim to make.
While this is just my reading and not evidence, it's perfectly logical for the group to want to go in a new, cleaner direction and Barret to refuse and that's the splinter.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I'm more on board with Waw's interpretation: that at the start of BC there was only one Avalanche, led by Fuhito. After the explosion/implosion at Corel, Avalanche went quiet for three years; the group we then see re-emerging in BC is a radical rump led by Fuhito and composed primarily of Ravens. "HQ", the "mainstream" group which isn't mentioned in BC, must have formed itself out of the less radical elements of Fuhito's original Avalanche.
I too assumed Fuhito is the one who studied planet life at Cosmo Canyon and then left to form an anti-Shinra group. Taking abstract idology and turning it into action, so to speak. I would also love to know where it's mentioned that he fell into the Lifestream and had a revelation; I can easily believe that's canon, but it's the first I've ever heard of it.
I imagine the relationship between Wutai and Avalanche being analagous to that between Afghanistan, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda in the early 2000s. Wutai is probably no more politically homogenous than Midgar is; there will be factions who want to work with Shinra, factions who want to destroy it, factions which favour sakoku-style isolation, etc...
What doesn't make any sense to me is that timeline in the World Preview Book. It simply isn't possible for someone to form a radical political group from scratch and in two months be ready to launch a complex military operation, requiring hundreds of trained operatives, on the other side of the world. Al-Qaeda was founded in 1988 and started planning 9/11 four years before carrying it out, and that wasn't an operation requiring anything like as much manpower as the attack on Midgar and Junon. The only way it could have been possible for Fuhito is if he took command of an existing paramilitary force (in Wutai, I guess) that was already in the final stages of planning the attack.
It makes me laugh every time the Remake implies that Barret's group has been disowned by "HQ" for being too radical. As Biggs observes, "they're the ones running around with the mil-spec gear". I think it's likelier that Barret and his followers were disowned because Barret is a loose cannon who can't take orders, making it very probable that he and all those who associate with him will end up getting caught by Shinra.
Here's something that just occurred to me. How did Pres. Shinra and Heidegger know that Barret and his group were going to attack Reactor No. 1? It wasn't just that Barret & Co made such a ruckus going in. Pres. and Heidegger were not surprised; they were prepared. Somehow or other, Barret's plans were betrayed to Shinra. By the person who gave Jessie the pass codes? By "HQ"? By the person controlling "HQ"? Were Barret & Co all unwittingly a sleight of hand, designed to make the Pres and Heidegger look to the right while the real attack was being prepared to the left?
I too assumed Fuhito is the one who studied planet life at Cosmo Canyon and then left to form an anti-Shinra group. Taking abstract idology and turning it into action, so to speak. I would also love to know where it's mentioned that he fell into the Lifestream and had a revelation; I can easily believe that's canon, but it's the first I've ever heard of it.
I imagine the relationship between Wutai and Avalanche being analagous to that between Afghanistan, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda in the early 2000s. Wutai is probably no more politically homogenous than Midgar is; there will be factions who want to work with Shinra, factions who want to destroy it, factions which favour sakoku-style isolation, etc...
What doesn't make any sense to me is that timeline in the World Preview Book. It simply isn't possible for someone to form a radical political group from scratch and in two months be ready to launch a complex military operation, requiring hundreds of trained operatives, on the other side of the world. Al-Qaeda was founded in 1988 and started planning 9/11 four years before carrying it out, and that wasn't an operation requiring anything like as much manpower as the attack on Midgar and Junon. The only way it could have been possible for Fuhito is if he took command of an existing paramilitary force (in Wutai, I guess) that was already in the final stages of planning the attack.
It makes me laugh every time the Remake implies that Barret's group has been disowned by "HQ" for being too radical. As Biggs observes, "they're the ones running around with the mil-spec gear". I think it's likelier that Barret and his followers were disowned because Barret is a loose cannon who can't take orders, making it very probable that he and all those who associate with him will end up getting caught by Shinra.
Here's something that just occurred to me. How did Pres. Shinra and Heidegger know that Barret and his group were going to attack Reactor No. 1? It wasn't just that Barret & Co made such a ruckus going in. Pres. and Heidegger were not surprised; they were prepared. Somehow or other, Barret's plans were betrayed to Shinra. By the person who gave Jessie the pass codes? By "HQ"? By the person controlling "HQ"? Were Barret & Co all unwittingly a sleight of hand, designed to make the Pres and Heidegger look to the right while the real attack was being prepared to the left?
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
All right, this caused me to go on a bit of an Ultimania search for info about Avalanche. The findings were... interesting. And kinda show how the idea of Avalanche developed over the course of the Compilation if you go in order by publication date. Barret's relationship to it is particularly interesting. And then Remake kinda decided to lob a grenade in the whole thing...
FFVII Ultimania Omega (2005) (Keywords)
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (2007)
Timeline (cross-referenced with Crisis Core Timeline)(relevant dates only)
Barret Wallace Character Profile
Final Fantasy VII Series Terms and Definitions
Crisis Core: FFVII – The Complete Guide (2007) (Keywords)
Remake
To put it simply, Remake retcons the dating of when Barret's "new" Avalanche is founded by... quite a bit. As well as the *reason* it was founded. This isn't even in the Ultimania *either*. It's right there in the normal game script and can't even be skipped over.
Talking Strategy
Given the large change in the date of the founding of Barret's Branch of Avalanche, I think it's safe to say that Avalanche's organization was substantially retconed for Remake. Fuhito's Branch fits the Radical Branch to a T (all the BC dates of events happening to BC Avalanche are still the same). But the "Main Branch" was probably made out of whole cloth and given a profile that would explain both why Shinra hasn't found them yet (they prefer the more subtle route) and why they don't agree with Barret (Barret is going more in the direction/style of Fuhito's Branch). The Main Branch also has a lot more money/personal/connections than *either* Fuhito or Barret. Fuhito might be a scientist... but he's not going around buying off Midgar's Mayor or having his own helicopters. He's stealing all that from Shinra.
So yeah. This is... actually the most substantial retcon of the Compilation in Remake I've found other than Wall Market. That is like... an *actual* retcon and not a "we killed Destiny so now the future could be different" change. Which means... NKN probably have something big planned for Avalanche later on down the line that required them to have an actual Main Branch that wasn't Fuhito's Branch or Barret's.
FFVII Ultimania Omega (2005) (Keywords)
This sets up the initial idea of Avalanche's founding. It also sets up that Barret's Avalanche is a "new" Avalanche and that it's base is in 7th Heaven. At this point, it's probably safe to say that BC Avalanche is the "old/original" Avalanche.
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (2007)
Timeline (cross-referenced with Crisis Core Timeline)(relevant dates only)
General Timeline information. This is where Avalanche starting in 0001 dates to, interestingly, Avalanche blowing up the Sector 8 Reactor happens in the same month the Wutai War ends. Which probably isn't a coincidence. Perhaps just as interesting is the 11-3-007 date of when Barret founds "new" Avalanche... a full month before the OG starts. This also confirms that the "assasination" of Avalanche's leader isn't an actual assasination. It was the cover-up Rufus helped with.
Barret Wallace Character Profile
Barret's profile has some really interesting notes about his "new" Branch of Avalanche. For one thing, it apparently *doens't* have a direct relationship between the "old" Avalanche, that is, Fuhito/Elfe's Avalanche. It also says that he did take up Avalanche's cause when he found out about them... but it also notes he doesn't seem to know of Avalanche's detailed history. Namely, he doesn't seem to know it was Avalanche who obstructed the Corel Reactor from being built in BC. And it even notes that if he had known, he might not have sympathized with their ideals. All of this seems to me to be something perfect to be brought up in Remake for Barret to have extra angst over.
Final Fantasy VII Series Terms and Definitions
More confirmation of what we already know. This also has the first mention of internal fighting happening within Avalanche and how that was one of the reasons it would collapse. This mentions Barret took the name of it and made a whole new organization, sperate from the one that came before it.
Crisis Core: FFVII – The Complete Guide (2007) (Keywords)
This is almost the same thing as the Ultimania Omega. Almost. Elfe being refered to as "the second leader" of Avalache is... quite odd and it's the first time it's been mentioned in any Ultimania. So the question is... who is "old" Avalanche's first leader? It isn't Fuhito, because he's *technically* under Elfe's command. Shears isn't the "leader" either. So... who is this? I don't know. Personally I think it's a good candidate for the "Main Branch" leader. But more on that later...
This confirms that it's Elfe/Fuhito's "old" Avalanche that was in Wutai. And it would be that group that Yuffie and Sonon would have known/run into that make them wary of working with Avalanche in Intermission. Barret's "new" Avalanche is also confirmed to still be based at 7th heaven.
Remake
To put it simply, Remake retcons the dating of when Barret's "new" Avalanche is founded by... quite a bit. As well as the *reason* it was founded. This isn't even in the Ultimania *either*. It's right there in the normal game script and can't even be skipped over.
Talking Strategy
So yeah. As far as Remake's timeline is concerned... Barret has been leading his own Avalanche Cell seperate from whatever they branched off from for... over a year. Or rather, since 12-??-0006. The way everyone talks, they were *all* a part of "HQ" before the split as well. This doesn't make a lot of sense for it to be Fuhito's Avalanche... given that Fuhito's Avalanche is even more militant than Barret's is. Also note that the date of Barret founding his "new" Avalanche was *moved* to sometime in 0006 from the old date of 11-3-0007 in the World Preview Timeline. This is the only date on the World Preview Timline that was moved.
Given the large change in the date of the founding of Barret's Branch of Avalanche, I think it's safe to say that Avalanche's organization was substantially retconed for Remake. Fuhito's Branch fits the Radical Branch to a T (all the BC dates of events happening to BC Avalanche are still the same). But the "Main Branch" was probably made out of whole cloth and given a profile that would explain both why Shinra hasn't found them yet (they prefer the more subtle route) and why they don't agree with Barret (Barret is going more in the direction/style of Fuhito's Branch). The Main Branch also has a lot more money/personal/connections than *either* Fuhito or Barret. Fuhito might be a scientist... but he's not going around buying off Midgar's Mayor or having his own helicopters. He's stealing all that from Shinra.
So yeah. This is... actually the most substantial retcon of the Compilation in Remake I've found other than Wall Market. That is like... an *actual* retcon and not a "we killed Destiny so now the future could be different" change. Which means... NKN probably have something big planned for Avalanche later on down the line that required them to have an actual Main Branch that wasn't Fuhito's Branch or Barret's.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I thought we all knew that the Remake did a major ret-con on Avalanche. Afaik, up until the Remake, Avalanche was dead until Barret came along and revived it. There was no mention of any "HQ" until the Remake. Avalanche Mark I was a single entity controlled by Fuhito that was pretty much annihiated in two events: first, the Turks' attack on their base in Wutai, and then Corel. The Avalanche that's operating in the final chapters of BC is just a rump; by the final episodes, it's reduced to a comatose Elfe, Fuhito and a handful of Ravens.
I am pretty sure Fuhito was always the leader. Elfe was a inspiring figurehead, but she was not his commander any more than Sephiroth is Hojo's commander. Shears was the Lepidus in their triumvirate. Her goal was to destroy Shinra, but Fuhito's goal was probably always to destroy the whole of humanity using the summons in her hand. She was opposed to this goal, but the summons weakened her physically to the point where she was essentially his prisoner.
Athough Avalanche's base was in Wutai, that's no reason to suppose that the government of Wutai generally, or Godo specifically, endorsed and supported them.
My headcanon is that Barret arrived in Midgar, heard about Avalanche, formed his own ad-hoc cell of ragtags and misfits, tried to get accepted by "HQ", and was refused. They never were officially Avalanche except in their own minds. Even their "uniforms" are made from whatever they can cobble together. Barret probably joined the Watch when he washed up in Sector 7, and recruited Biggs, Wedge and Jessie from there. I mean, they are very amateurish. This is why I think they were used as a distraction from the BIG operation the real Avalanche (controlled by Rufus?) was planning against the President. They were an irritant, disposable.
I must admit I do not have access to the various Ultimanias and all the other supporting material SE keeps putting out.
I am pretty sure Fuhito was always the leader. Elfe was a inspiring figurehead, but she was not his commander any more than Sephiroth is Hojo's commander. Shears was the Lepidus in their triumvirate. Her goal was to destroy Shinra, but Fuhito's goal was probably always to destroy the whole of humanity using the summons in her hand. She was opposed to this goal, but the summons weakened her physically to the point where she was essentially his prisoner.
Athough Avalanche's base was in Wutai, that's no reason to suppose that the government of Wutai generally, or Godo specifically, endorsed and supported them.
My headcanon is that Barret arrived in Midgar, heard about Avalanche, formed his own ad-hoc cell of ragtags and misfits, tried to get accepted by "HQ", and was refused. They never were officially Avalanche except in their own minds. Even their "uniforms" are made from whatever they can cobble together. Barret probably joined the Watch when he washed up in Sector 7, and recruited Biggs, Wedge and Jessie from there. I mean, they are very amateurish. This is why I think they were used as a distraction from the BIG operation the real Avalanche (controlled by Rufus?) was planning against the President. They were an irritant, disposable.
I must admit I do not have access to the various Ultimanias and all the other supporting material SE keeps putting out.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Rufus wouldn't control Avalanche by now. Timeline still has him being found out on the same date as in BC and still has him being put on a "long-term business trip to get him out of the way". AKA, he still would have been in solitary confinement with the Turks for four years. And Tseng definetly pulls the "I'm the one addressing you as President first" act in Remake. So I'd think Rufus' Avalanche days are over in Remake as well.
Every Avalanche date matches up with a BC one on the new Timeline other than Barret's. So until any new information comes in... it certainly sounds like they're all references to Fuhito's Avalanche. Goodness knows the Main Branch isn't having a funding problem at the moment, much less is acting like it's got low numbers or its leader was assassinated recently.
Every Avalanche date matches up with a BC one on the new Timeline other than Barret's. So until any new information comes in... it certainly sounds like they're all references to Fuhito's Avalanche. Goodness knows the Main Branch isn't having a funding problem at the moment, much less is acting like it's got low numbers or its leader was assassinated recently.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Possibly, but a large portion of the fandom thinks that the Avalanche operation into which Cloud & Co stumbled when rescuing Aerith was coordinated by Rufus, who was arriving by helicopter to shoot his father in the face himself. The biggest piece of evidence arguing against this theory is the fact that Rude and Reno shoot down the Avalanche helicopter coming to pick up Cloud and his team. This would seem, on the face of it, to be an unfriendly thing to do to one's allies. However, it's hardly beyond Rufus to turn on his allies the moment they cease to be useful to him, and making a sacrifice of Avalanche would be a very popular way to start his Presidency. He has doubtless made sure there's no paper trail connecting them to him. It all depends on how big they are and whether he has the resources to defeat them quickly.
If this theory is correct, I don't expect to see Mayor Domino alive in subsequent installments.
If this theory is correct, I don't expect to see Mayor Domino alive in subsequent installments.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I mean, I wouldn't expect Domino to be alive in *any* subsequent installment. Either he's Avalanche, and Rufus is against and Avalanche, so that's every reason to get rid of him right there. If Rufus is *for* Avanche and is screwing them over, then that's a reason to get rid of him. Or Rufus isn't screwing Avalanche over, but other people in Shinra are too close to figuring out that there's a link between Rufus and Avalanche and killing Domino will distract them...
On the flip-side, Rufus could choose to leave him alive in both stances to! If Rufus is against Avalanche, he could choose to leave Domino alive to see what he does and figure out what info Avalanche is getting (or even, give Domino information to Avalanche to misdirect them). If Rufus was backing Avalanche and is now screwing them over... same thing. If Rufus *isn't* screwing Avalanche over, then he has no reason to kill Domino anyway...
Really, you can use just argument for any take on the situation to make it fit your take on Rufus' loyatlies...
On the flip-side, Rufus could choose to leave him alive in both stances to! If Rufus is against Avalanche, he could choose to leave Domino alive to see what he does and figure out what info Avalanche is getting (or even, give Domino information to Avalanche to misdirect them). If Rufus was backing Avalanche and is now screwing them over... same thing. If Rufus *isn't* screwing Avalanche over, then he has no reason to kill Domino anyway...
Really, you can use just argument for any take on the situation to make it fit your take on Rufus' loyatlies...