About Materia

[Starling]

So, one thing I've noticed about materia that I feel deserves a thread to discuss is about how it can be used without being slotted and in what circumstances.

Genesis and Shelke's use of magic in CC nd DoC respectively suggest that it's possible to use materia not only by simply holding it, but possibly even from a short distance.

Spoiler: Here are some examples.

Sephiroth casting Meteor probably counts too. The thing is, none of them are normal people so it's difficult to say if it's something that regular people with sufficient skill in maic would be able to do.

Another thing I've been wondering about is how Lucrecia presumaly walked into the mako crystal she's in, and how Cloud could pass his hand into the crystal Sephiroth was in to give the black materia. What do you think?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Speculation: Materia is like glass where it's really a very viscous liquid (and not really a solid) and the mako crystals around Sephiroth and Lucrecia are relatively recent mako crystals. They haven't finished hardening yet and while they're sticky enough to hold together, they are viscous enough to move though.

IDK!

Materia/Lifestream is the ultimate unobtanium! It behaves the way the plot needs it to!

 

[Flare]

So, one thing I've noticed about materia that I feel deserves a thread to discuss is about how it can be used without being slotted and in what circumstances.

I've always wondered about materia myself. I would actually like to hear some good explanations in the remake for how this stuff works.
When I first watched AC, I assumed materia was used by inserting it into your arm/body, like Kadaj does, but that seems to be a special case. The original game has you putting materia inside weapon and armor slots, suggesting that materia being worn in some way is able to be used. Some people hold it in their hands to use it too.
I think slotting it on your gear seems to be the common practice, but it's also possible to use it remotely in cases or by absorbing it?

Genesis and Shelke's use of magic in CC nd DoC respectively suggest that it's possible to use materia not only by simply holding it, but possibly even from a short distance.

Spoiler: Here are some examples.

Sephiroth casting Meteor probably counts too. The thing is, none of them are normal people so it's difficult to say if it's something that regular people with sufficient skill in maic would be able to do.

Could be them being 'special' or different; in this case they all have some form of Jenova cells, so that could enable someone to use it from a distance/set it up like that, as when Genesis summons Ifrit remotely though the materia in Fort Tamblin.
But since no one in-game ever mentions how odd this was, I don't know if it is so rare. Perhaps it's more of an individual ability thing? Some people can do it and some can't, maybe depending on their willpower?

Sephiroth uses some form of magic it seems in CC, when he's fighting Genesis Copies in the hallway of the Shinra Buidling, right before Zack and Angeal arrive. Yet he doesn't seem to be carrying any materia, and he doesn't have slots for it on his sword or armor. Is it in his pocket, in his arm? Or was that not magic?

Another thing I've been wondering about is how Lucrecia presumaly walked into the mako crystal she's in, and how Cloud could pass his hand into the crystal Sephiroth was in to give the black materia. What do you think?

I think with Cloud giving the materia to Sephiroth, he was able to do so because Sephiroth willed him to do it; Both Sephiroth and Lucrecia were encased willingly, but where Lucrecia did so out of guilt, sort of making it her grave, Sephiroth was intending his to be merely temporary until he got the materia. Makes sense that Cloud, willingly giving him the materia, would be able to put his hand into the 'materia encasing'. I believe Sephiroth, at that time, had enough power to make such a thing possible.

 

[Stryfe]

lol, actually I think what you just wrote there would be a pretty plausible explanation! XD

 

[Starling]

Speculation: Materia is like glass where it's really a very viscous liquid (and not really a solid) and the mako crystals around Sephiroth and Lucrecia are relatively recent mako crystals. They haven't finished hardening yet and while they're sticky enough to hold together, they are viscous enough to move though.

IDK!

Materia/Lifestream is the ultimate unobtanium! It behaves the way the plot needs it to!

You know, I don't think I've ever heard someone speculate about that before. As far as I can tell, materia usually grows from roots, which likely help it concentrate in a particular area. Otherwise it condenses out of sheer concentration, like how it's likely produced artificially. Considering the Weapons are made of spirit energy and summons dematerialize into spirit energy, I suppose it's reasonable to interpret it that way. It would also add to how disturbing materia during its many year formation process can mess it up.

I've always wondered about materia myself. I would actually like to hear some good explanations in the remake for how this stuff works.
When I first watched AC, I assumed materia was used by inserting it into your arm/body, like Kadaj does, but that seems to be a special case. The original game has you putting materia inside weapon and armor slots, suggesting that materia being worn in some way is able to be used. Some people hold it in their hands to use it too.
I think slotting it on your gear seems to be the common practice, but it's also possible to use it remotely in cases or by absorbing it?

The remnants are made of negative lifestream, like the shadow creepers. You can actually see a bit of drak mist when Kadaj inserts the materia in his arm, so it's safe to say they can do that because of the way they're made. I always figured ateria slots were mainly used to have a safe place to keep the materia while keeping your hands free.

The abridged version of the OG's materia tutorial (explained by Cloud to Barret) is as follows:

Sure, I’ll explain how Materia works. [...] Now look at my weapon here. Each weapon and armor has slots in it. Choose which slot you want to put Materia in. Now select the materia you want to use. This is curative Materia. [...] Now you can use the magic Cure. And that’s all there is to equipping Materia. See? It wasn’t that tough! [...] There’s just one thing you have to be careful of. Whenever you equip Materia, your situation changes. Parts of you may become stronger… while others get weaker. Normally, when you equip magic materia, your magic power will get stronger. But your physical strength weakens. So, materia’s kind of a double-edged sword. [...] It’s wise not to overuse Magic Materia. But try out various things. [...] OK, that’s about it. I’ll give you some advanced tips later.

From that it would seem that equipping materia affects the person's physical strength and magic ability, demonstrate through stat changes. There's also the matter of how materia grows and multiplies when mastered, which happens through battle, as well as how in CC, there's materia fusion, which requires SP. SP is gathered either by fighting monsters or by converting materia into it, which seems to indicate that it's spirit energy. SP is short for SOLDIER points. There's also the matter of materia color. I find a way to reconcile the color coding in CC and the OG with the lack of it in DoC and ACC is that the colorations seen in CC and the OG are the most common for that type, even if the actual colorations may vary.

Could be them being 'special' or different; in this case they all have some form of Jenova cells, so that could enable someone to use it from a distance/set it up like that, as when Genesis summons Ifrit remotely though the materia in Fort Tamblin.
But since no one in-game ever mentions how odd this was, I don't know if it is so rare. Perhaps it's more of an individual ability thing? Some people can do it and some can't, maybe depending on their willpower?

Sephiroth uses some form of magic it seems in CC, when he's fighting Genesis Copies in the hallway of the Shinra Buidling, right before Zack and Angeal arrive. Yet he doesn't seem to be carrying any materia, and he doesn't have slots for it on his sword or armor. Is it in his pocket, in his arm? Or was that not magic?

I'd think it'd be the mako rather than Jenova cells, since mako is what materia is made of, as well as what Shinra seems to call spirit energy, from what I found when reviewing mentions of the terms. The cetra could guide the flow of the lifestream and were adept at magic, if materia containing the knowledge of the Ancient and Aerith's high magic stats are anything to got by. You'll notice that Cloud and Vincent happen to have the second highest bas magic stat after Aerith, which would be in line with mako exposure improving magic. While Genesis' specialty is clearly magic, Shelke was said to only have her SND abilities to make her stand out. Azul uses magic too so maybe other Deepground soldiers had similar magical ability to Shelke. Of course, Azul may could've been underestimating her in his contempt for her weakness by his standards. The only comment I remember being made on Genesis's magic was when Zack disapproved of the way he was making use of the summons, apparently finding it dishonorable.

There's a chance that while not limited to individuals who are either part cetra or were exposed to mako, it still requires a certain level of skill with magic. As for Sephiroth's use of magic, I didn't include instances where magic s used without the materia in sight, as they could simply either be kept out of the viewer's sight or no one bothered including them on the character. I mean, Zack's equiped materia aren't visible are they? You don't really see the materia used in any other instances of magic use in the game, such as Genesis' fire spells and Angeal using Quake. Sephiroth eems to have used some kind of lightning spell.

I think with Cloud giving the materia to Sephiroth, he was able to do so because Sephiroth willed him to do it; Both Sephiroth and Lucrecia were encased willingly, but where Lucrecia did so out of guilt, sort of making it her grave, Sephiroth was intending his to be merely temporary until he got the materia. Makes sense that Cloud, willingly giving him the materia, would be able to put his hand into the 'materia encasing'. I believe Sephiroth, at that time, had enough power to make such a thing possible.

I'm pretty sure Sephiroth didn't end up there willingly, though it was likely necessary in order to come back. I like The Engineer's explanation to turn the interpretation of solid matter phasing into solid matter into solid matter entering semi-solid matter instead. When Sephiroth was phasing through stuff earlier in the game, he was basically a ghost. I find there's only so much power you can let a villain have before it gets kinda ridiculous that he'd need more to attain godhood. I mean unless Sephiroth's still missing his lower half at that pont, he wouldn't have had to rely on Jenova's body to get things done.

 

[Kionae]

Speculation: Materia is like glass where it's really a very viscous liquid (and not really a solid) and the mako crystals around Sephiroth and Lucrecia are relatively recent mako crystals. They haven't finished hardening yet and while they're sticky enough to hold together, they are viscous enough to move though.

Unless they're rewriting the basics of geology, no... something can't be both a glass and a crystal, because a glass has no crystalline structure. Without a crystalline structure, you fail the most basic test of being a crystal.

Crystals don't really "harden". They either precipitate from solution, or cool from molten state. In any case, once a crystal forms, it's as hard as it's going to get (though it may still be in contact with uncrystallized material. There's no "stickiness" holding it together. Crystals are held together by ionic bonds.

Also, the notion that glass is a liquid is an urban legend. It's classified as an amorphous solid, meaning a solid that lacks an ordered arrangement of its molecular constituents. The only point at which glass is a liquid is when it is at it's melting point... so if glass were still liquid enough that you could pass through it, it would inflict rather serious burns.

On the other hand... IS materia really a crystal to begin with? It appears to have a crystalline shape, but based on game cannon, it is (somehow) solidified energy. So I don't know that the geologic properties of eithera glass or a crystal would apply in this case.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What's interesting about materia is that, while it's supposed to be solidified energy, you can't drain it (unlike a battery); instead, using materia drains your own energy. Materia never runs down; it only grows in power - or efficacy - the more you use it.

 

[Ite]

In fact, it grows and reproduces. Materia is a life form.

 

[Kionae]

In fact, it grows and reproduces. Materia is a life form.

It's possible. I mean, it's made from the Lifestream, which is the spirit energy of living beings, after all.

Building upon that theory... perhaps it's a sentient lifeform, and reacts as necessary depending on the circumstances.

 

[Flare]

I had an inner theory that if materia was particularly strong, it might have a single consciousness in it, like a summon. But that's was just an idea.

And it's probably the mako, Starling, like you mentioned, I'd forgotten about them having mako baths too. Everyone on that planet is born with a part of the lifestream inside them, their life force, and materia is made from that same life force, so it makes sense that most people should probably be able to use materia. SOLDIERS probably are much more adept at it because of the mako baths, in the way they're physically stronger because of Jenova cells and mako baths combined.

As far as Sephiroth being encased goes, I think he willingly went to the crater because it has such a high concentration of energy there already (or he did it subconsciously). He might not have wanted to be stuck there, but he found a way around it by manipulating Jenova to get Cloud to get the black materia and in the end give it to him, so.... Seems fairly willing on most of that.

 

[Starling]

In fact, it grows and reproduces. Materia is a life form.

It's possible. I mean, it's made from the Lifestream, which is the spirit energy of living beings, after all.

Building upon that theory... perhaps it's a sentient lifeform, and reacts as necessary depending on the circumstances.

And now we have the real reason no one wants to use materia anymore. But really, it's probably because most materia people have access to was made by Shinra and it's part of everyone's reluctance to make further use of mako energy, even though materia doesn't drain from the planet. I forget if summon materia can reproduce as well. While materia in general doesn't possess sentience, summon materia might.

I think the real life equivalent for energy properties is usually electricity and plasma, so we'd have to compare that to the properties of glass and crystal, then try to fnd the best compromise to fit materia's properties.

I had an inner theory that if materia was particularly strong, it might have a single consciousness in it, like a summon. But that's was just an idea.

And it's probably the mako, Starling, like you mentioned, I'd forgotten about them having mako baths too. Everyone on that planet is born with a part of the lifestream inside them, their life force, and materia is made from that same life force, so it makes sense that most people should probably be able to use materia. SOLDIERS probably are much more adept at it because of the mako baths, in the way they're physically stronger because of Jenova cells and mako baths combined.

As far as Sephiroth being encased goes, I think he willingly went to the crater because it has such a high concentration of energy there already (or he did it subconsciously). He might not have wanted to be stuck there, but he found a way around it by manipulating Jenova to get Cloud to get the black materia and in the end give it to him, so.... Seems fairly willing on most of that.

That actually crossed my mind while thinking about ways magic in general could work, but not necessarily in the context of FF7.

Mako was said to have mutagenic properties and be involved in the creation of monsters, which is in line with the stronger enemies being found where there's more mako. That means the strength is likely from both mako and Jenova.

I figured Sephiroth ended up at the North Crater because of the curent more than anything, then had to make the best of his situation in whatever way he could, leading to the plan he went with.

 

[Clement Rage]

IMO Lifestream is little bits of people's lives, so that would make materia little bits of knowledge that dried up when it got separated from the lifestream.

Mako poisoning is 'mako drenched knowledge', according to that doctor, and Cloud lost his identity as a result due to the previous mindgames weakening it. Somebody else says materia is 'the wisdom of the Ancients', so maybe it's some way the Cetra had to tapping into the Planet to make it's memories real that people can piggyback on. The more you dwell on a memory, the more distinct it becomes, so the materia grows.

I assumed Azul couldn't use magic himself, or else he'd just have put up a new barrier when they RPG'd the old one

 

[ForceStealer]

As for the slotted/versus holding, I just took that as Materia has to be in your immediate possession to use. If you drop a materia you can't use it, and if you drop your weapon you can't use any materia in it.
As I type this I raise the question of why, then, can't you just use all the materia sitting in your backpack...but maybe weapons and armor contain conduits for spirit energy to flow?

I always chalked the Remnants absorbing materia into their arms simply up to the fact that they weren't 100% corporeal, rather than the "true" representation of how people use materia. But I know a LOT of people saw it differently than I did.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe with Lucretia and Sephiroth the "crystallization" is the reaction of the Lifestream to the presence of Jenova cells, like how a pearl forms round a piece of grit in an oyster.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^I like that theory!

 

[trash panda]

Any ideas what causes the size difference between materia?


It seems like all of the command/magic/support/summon materia is roughly the same size. In terms of size:
Huge > Black > Command/Battle/Support/Summon > White

I was just wondering why, since that's obviously not the order of strength.

 

[Flare]

Hmm, the black and white materia are such different sizes, that's the most puzzling to me. It's not a strength thing, like you said, because they're supposed to be about equal. I wonder why? I was thinking maybe white materia is more concentrated, but that would relate to power...

 

[trash panda]

Maybe the white materia just has a stronger...er...gravitational...or...spiritual force or something?

For some reason, FF wiki states that the Black Materia is the most powerful, but that's not true if Holy won against it. I'm trying to figure out size differences based on strength.



...../headache

 

[Ite]

The black materia doesn't require the death of the caster to use. Ergo, it is arguably the single most powerful entity in the known universe.

 

[Starling]

Who says Aerith had to die to cast Holy? Conidering how Aerith's death was in now way meant to be taken as a noble sacrifice, I'm pretty sure her death was unecessary. The size differences probably have something to do with how they were formed.

For why people can't use materia in their pockets, maybe most people have a hard time getting it to work from there, while it's easier to focus on when either in hand or a slot. Gameplay would be sper broken if they didn't limit how many materia you could use at time, so they don't really have any reason to show it's possible. I'm curious about whether or not slots are the only way to make use of support materia. I mean, did the Cetra have slotted equipment or did Shinra come up with that?

IMO Lifestream is little bits of people's lives, so that would make materia little bits of knowledge that dried up when it got separated from the lifestream.

Mako poisoning is 'mako drenched knowledge', according to that doctor, and Cloud lost his identity as a result due to the previous mindgames weakening it. Somebody else says materia is 'the wisdom of the Ancients', so maybe it's some way the Cetra had to tapping into the Planet to make it's memories real that people can piggyback on. The more you dwell on a memory, the more distinct it becomes, so the materia grows.

I assumed Azul couldn't use magic himself, or else he'd just have put up a new barrier when they RPG'd the old one

My understanding is that when someone dies and their life energy returns to the planet, it's their knowledge and memories that add to it. The planet needs that so the individual breaks down in order to allow their knowledge, memories and life energy to be reused by the planet. Living people aren't meant to end up there so their minds get lost in all the foreign memories. Worst case scenario is likely that the soul ends up stuck in the lifestream while the body is comatose, meaning the person is effectively clinically dead and will never wake up. Otherwise mako poisoning seems to take years to recover from, with the individual likely attempting to adjust and find their way back to themselves. When Cloud and Tifa were in the lifestream together, it seemed that Tifa being in Cloud's mind somehow kept her from being affected much.

As for materia use, it seems that people naturally gather ambient spirit energy in combat, which is how limit breaks are used, though the individual's emotional state seems to be a factor in this. Since magic also involves spirit energy, that implies that limit breaks are some kind of innate magic people can use by tapping into their own knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if materia grew by passively gathering spirit energy from the person holding it.

You can't use magic indefinitely, so maybe Azul didn't feel like recasting it or his use of it up to that point used up a lot of magic.

Spoiler: Relevant quotes, including the doctor's:

At the mako spring:

Sephiroth: Materia. When you condense mako energy, mako energy is produced. It’s very rare to be able to see materia in its natural state.

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can use magic too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn’t even know that? …the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic… or so they say.

Inside the mako reactor:

Sephiroth: …now I see, Hojo. But, even doing this, will never put you on the same level as Professor Gast. This is a system that condenses and freezes the Mako energy… that is, when it’s working correctly. Now… what does mako energy become when it’s further condensed?

Cloud: Uh, umm… Oh yeah! It becomes Materia.

Sephiroth: Right, normally. But Hojo put something else in there. …Take a look.

Cloud: Wh… what is this!?

Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with Mako. You’re different from the others, but still human. But, what are they? They’ve been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud: …is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it’s Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters. Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That’s what these monster’s really are.

After the Temple of the Ancients is shrunken down:

Cloud: As long as we have this, Sephiroth won’t be able to use Meteor. Mmm? Can you guys use it?

Aerith: Nope, we can’t use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use it.

Cloud: You mean lots of spiritual energy?

Aerith: That’s right. One person’s power alone won’t do it. Somewhere special. Where there’s plenty of the Planet’s energy… Oh yeah! The Promised Land!!

What the doctor in Mideel say about mako poisoning:

Tifa: What’s wrong with him?

Doctor: Mako poisoning… Quite an advanced case…It appears this young man’s been exposed to a high level of Mako energy, for a protracted period of time. He probably has no idea who or where he is now… Poor fellow, his voice doesn’t even work. He is literally miles away from us. Some place far away where no one’s ever been… All alone…

Doctor: I’ll say it again, he’s got mako poisoning. I’ve never seen a case this bad… An immense amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain at once… No normal human could have survived it… it’s a miracle he did!

Shademp's retranslation of the optional scene in the Forgotten Capital if you go there after getting Cloud back but before bringing Bugenhagen:

Cloud: …It’s similar. I didn’t notice it the last time I came… This place… it’s similar to being in the Lifestream. …All the different noise. …The noise doesn’t go through your ears, but directly into your head. Feeling like it means something… but not being able to understand it. Frustration at not being able to understand it. That’s what it’s like.

Barret: Now that you mention it…

Tifa: My head feels like it’s getting crushed.

The bit about magic in Case of Yuffie:

Some of the people possessed wounds that even the materia Yuffie had couldn’t heal but, she was sure they would heal gradually if cared for well. The problem was Yuffie herself didn’t have the mental power. Materia was the crystallization of the Lifestream. To withdraw the power from the stabilized crystal, some form of shock is required and this is triggered by the mind waves of the user. As a result of that, the materia user’s mind is significantly weakened.

Keep in mind that I only quoted the relevant parts of the scenes, since it's an awful lot to quote.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The white materia had to be small so that nobody in the party noticed it bouncing down the stairs and splashing into the water. The black materia had to be huge so that it was easy to see Cloud handing it over to Sephiroth.

PS One of the things I like about the mako/materia/Lifestream conundrum is that it's clear that Shinra and the people of the Planet did not fully understand the nature of the resource they were exploiting. They learnt what they could use it for before they learnt what it was. We people of Earth ought to recognize ourselves in that.

 

[Flare]

So judging from those quotes, it seems materia use is really affected by each individual's mental capabilities and spiritual capabilities.

I think since humans on that planet seem to simply be and offshoot (so to say) of the Cetra, it makes sense they'd still have their own spiritual power inside of them for limit breaks and such, and probably allows them to use materia in the first place, as a way to reconnect with that part of their ancestors that they lost.

I think Cetra, being more attuned to magic/the planet, possibly didn't even need materia to cast magic. Aerith might be different because she doesn't know how to do that anymore, since no one taught her.

Also, the idea of gameplay elements being the reason for the size difference between white and black materia is very possible too.
If that wasn't the case, maybe Sephiroth just enlarged the black materia to make it easier to see.

 

[trash panda]

Oh...I totally forgot that the black materia changes shape:

I think this is how it looked at the Temple of the Ancients.

 

[Flare]

^Whoa, really? Didn't catch that, but I've only played the og twice, so no surprise. What a radical shape.

 

[Starling]

Well, tht shape makes sense considering the black materia was the temple all along, it's also make sense that it was bigger because of that. I still have absolutely no idea how one turns a materia into a temple though. There's no way we'll ever get an answer on that.

I'd also like to clarify that spirit energy exists in all living creatures, so what makes the Cetra special is that they can guide its flow, as well as comunicate with the planet.